The topic of Nutrition just as heated as Religion - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:25 AM
 
granolamomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In my head, care to join me?
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiggleBirds View Post

Quote:
No offense intended anyway.
Quote:
At the risk of many flying tomatoes, would you condone eating mentally capacitated persons who have no concept of their futures? If that is your basis, I mean...

granolamomma is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:26 AM
 
GiggleBirds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Silly Town!
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I thought the fishing thing was just a metaphor, personally.

About the mentally capacitated persons comment.. I know it was over the top. But to me, so is eating animals. I just mean, if they're not good for anything other than living their lives in their not-regular/human ways and that is enough to eat them... I dunno. I should really shut my big fingers now. I really like discussion, but I know it is frustrating and emotion laden for many (and me too sometimes).
GiggleBirds is offline  
#63 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:32 AM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
nak, nutrition and ethics are closely linked to *world view*, which is different for each of us. I'm an animist . . . I believe the earth and everything it holds is alive/has a soul. Animals just happen to have eyes which are easy windows to the soul.
ftr, I find a lot of inconsistencies within the vegan paradigm. It really doesn't make sense to me and to be honest seems far from a sustainable long-term solution. I'd never presume to ask the questions that come into my mind, though, because I don't think it would actually accomplish anything and could quite conceivably come across as snarky.
HerthElde is offline  
#64 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:32 AM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 4,950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Nevermind.

Good night all.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#65 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:36 AM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh, and no I would not eat a cat because they are carnivores and humans should not eat carnivores. And there is no nutritive value to eating a human, especially one who is not in good condition.
HerthElde is offline  
#66 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:40 AM
 
granolamomma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In my head, care to join me?
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
And there is no nutritive value to eating a human, especially one who is not in good condition.

granolamomma is offline  
#67 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:44 AM
 
GiggleBirds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Silly Town!
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Gale, honestly, I am persisting because I want to know where your line is, and why?

To answer your question, yes, my emotional attachment to my child would make it harder to deal with, but if I was just as well aquainted with the animal down the road it would be just as hard. Honest truth.

The core belief system differences between the majority of vegs and the majority of meat eaters seem to make any discussion difficult without use of metaphors, imo. I am not intending to gross out or offend anyone. Granted, I am not a conventional person, but I am just trying to follow down the lines of logic provided for me to their end, and to understand the basis for the reasons stated for eating meat. Personally I find it fascinating because I cannot understand the mindset behind it and am trying to understand it. If my questions make you uncomfortable, I'm sorry. But really I'm just trying to understand how a person can think an animal shouldn't have the same rights as a human. And where/why that line is.


eta: Just because I don't know an animal personally and within the same capacity as I can know a human, doesn't mean it should be without its right to life. The fact is, we don't KNOW how much animals understand, percieve, etc.. after all, isn't science discovering new things about animals everyday? Capacities humans don't have?

omg, Herth, the casualness of your comment was very funny! But there is nutritive value to eating lentils and tempeh and beans. I've lived 15 years without eating animals and I'm doing great!
GiggleBirds is offline  
#68 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 03:54 AM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Actually, I think you're trying to get us to see your viewpoint, not the other way around. We get it. Well, I do anyway. I don't identify with it, but I can understand it. If you truly want to know where I, as an unapologetic meat eater, am coming from, I will attempt to explain it to you. But I actually don't think you really want to.

eta: I do think it's great that you are able to eat what you want to/what feels right to you and feel great doing it.
HerthElde is offline  
#69 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 04:02 AM
 
GiggleBirds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Silly Town!
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes I do want to hear! Okay, since we already know I won't agree with it, I promise I won't post a reply, unless there is something I really don't understand... Please post it! :
GiggleBirds is offline  
#70 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 04:50 AM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay, fair warning, this is going to take a while and it's almost one am here, so I may not finish tonight, but here goes. Also, I have a really hard time concisely getting my thoughts across, but I'll try not to be too rambly.
First of all, I've already stated that I believe everything on the earth that is natural has energy or a soul. That includes plants, animals, fungi, rocks, etc, whether they are "alive" or "dead". I feel the energy of the hardwood floors in my house and the lack of energy in the synthetic carpet in the basement. The same holds true of my food. There is a different energy which comes from natural ("organic") and unnatural (processed, pesticide-ridden, factory-farmed) food. And I meant what I said above, that the eyes of an animal are an easy window to the soul. We are animals, so we identify with them. But I feel the energy from other things, so to me, their souls are just as valid.
I don't believe that humans and human settlements should be separate from everything else on the earth. I believe humans are animals, just like any other mammal on earth, and that we should make an attempt to integrate ourselves back into the natural world. To me, this means that the paradigm which discusses land for growing human food as something which must be distinguished from "the environment" is useless. As an example, wheat crops, which are abundant where I live, should not exist. They do not allow for much biodiversity. (And there are many small mammals killed in the process of harvesting them - in fact, I'd go as far as to say that unless one grows one's own grain and hand harvests it - which iirc would expend more energy than it would give back - that going grain-free would kill less animals than going veg). Rather, we should be using a permaculture model which would allow for the integration of all types of wildlife into the area in which food is grown. In my particular area, the best way of doing this would be to bring back native pastureland. The variety of insects and fungi in native pasture is much higher than in a monocrop, and that leads to a wider diversity of mammals, reptiles, birds. Pastureland needs grazing animals in order to remain healthy.
I also believe that we should be eating locally both for our health and the health of the earth. Again, in my particular climate, this means that no leafy green vegetables grow in the middle of winter (in fact, nothing will grow midwinter). This means our bodies produce no Vitamin D between November and April of any given year, so it must be obtained through diet. I also believe there is a strong connection between eating locally in-season and the body's ability to cope with variations in climate (I know it's anecdotal, but anyone I've ever known locally who was veg*n or almost was much less able to cope with -40 weather).
I believe synthetic fabrics are hazardous to the earth and the people who produce them in both their manufacture and their (lack of) decomposition. There are dangers of offgassing, which in some cases in a couple hundred years will create a very toxic atmosphere. They lack energy. They make us sick, they make the earth sick. So in my climate, the alternative which allows sufficient warmth is animal skin and fur.
There's more, but I'm very tired, so I'll have to write more later (although, keep in mind I have a 34 month old and a 10 month old who don't afford me much time to type, much less to structure my thoughts into intelligible sentences, so it might be in spurts or late tomorrow night - by then, the conversation might totally lead away from it too).
HerthElde is offline  
#71 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:59 AM
 
JSerene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 751
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
HerthElde, I think you made your point very well and wanted to thank you for your post. I became a vegetarian because I felt it was the only ethical choice available to me after learning of industrial farming practices. Now I'm learning that it's so much more complicated than meat or no meat. I'm currently reading and learning a lot from Micahel Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and I think the world would be a much better place if the Polyface Farm model was the rule, not the exception.

To me MDC is a gathering of people who put a lot of thought into their lives and the choices they make. We want to do the right thing. We are thoughtful, ethical people. Discussions are going to get a little heated now and again. And lets remember this is the internet and we have license to express ourselves a little more, shall we say forcefully, than IRL.

GiggleBirds - Have you ever thought of how privilaged we are to be able to survive without animal products? We are a fortunate few with many food choices at all times of the year. Personally, I'm grateful that I can choose to be a vegetarian. At other times and other places it would not be possible. I try to keep that in mind before I judge anyone elses dietary/lifestyle choices.
If you lived in the arctic, you'd be eating seal. You'd be wearing fur. You would give thanks for the animals that kept you alive. That's the first example that came to my mind. Have you ever read Julie of the Wolves by Jean Craighead George? It's a great book for young readers. It is possible to live ethically and live off animals. It's just really difficult to do in our sick culture, IMO.
JSerene is offline  
#72 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 12:27 PM
 
newcastlemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: My happy place
Posts: 3,949
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSerene View Post

GiggleBirds - Have you ever thought of how privilaged we are to be able to survive without animal products? We are a fortunate few with many food choices at all times of the year. Personally, I'm grateful that I can choose to be a vegetarian. At other times and other places it would not be possible. I try to keep that in mind before I judge anyone elses dietary/lifestyle choices.
If you lived in the arctic, you'd be eating seal. You'd be wearing fur. You would give thanks for the animals that kept you alive. That's the first example that came to my mind. .
Very well said! ITA.

I am glad that you are doing well on a vegan diet GiggleBirds. I wanted it to, but it did not work for me even though I used to think it was the healthiest way for me to eat. My line is where my health declines and I am spending too much time in the hopsital and causing my family to suffer. I haver to answer to God ad He says that it is okay to eat animals, but I would never eat a human (just in case you needed clarification). I would eat any animal if I had to survive, like much of the worlds population is trying to do. Many people would die if they could not hunt also. For me, it pretty much came down to keep me alive or keeping the cow alive. I chose me and it was a good decision.

Once I found traditional foods it all made sense that animal products could be healthy and animals can be raised well.
I am doing much better eating this way and my sensitive conscious is clear.

homebirth.jpg<>< Mama to DS, DD, and a new baby girl 4/1! homeschool.gifmdcblog5.gif

newcastlemama is offline  
#73 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 01:13 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 4,950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I imagine there would be plenty of nutritive value in eating a human living on a traditional human diet. It looks like I erased my comment that you can all eat my dead body if you need to. I still mean it and I'm on a traditional diet, so you could make Gale Force jerky. You could call it GF jerky because it would also be gluten free.

If the logical extension of veganism is that their own children are on the same level as the steer down the road from me, then I guess I will never understand that viewpoint. Even a cow would put her own calf above my son. Vegan children are all safe with me of course because I don't eat humans (unless trapped in the Andes mountains in the snow), as inconsistent as that might appear to some. I have no need to be logically consistent just because someone thinks that I'm not. I just have need for vitamin B-12. I doubt the forest will ever be empty of non-human B-12 opportunities. Just the house fly population lately would suffice. So the line that I draw is that I don't eat humans but will eat just about anything else.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#74 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 01:21 PM
 
HerthElde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mother Earth
Posts: 2,999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
nak, also want to discuss death as I see it and nutrient bioavailability wrt future generational health. Dietary/nutrient needs wrt location and genetic heritage.

Oh, and GF, you're right of course in thatt there is nutrient value in a human. It's just not outweighed by dangers of illness present in cannibalism. And I'd still never knowingly eat a very sick animal, human or otherwise. And I do believe the root cause of mental illness is malnutrition.
Thanks for the offer, btw. You all could eat me too I'm not gluten free, however.

Oh, and my cats are my babies too. But of the non-reproducing variety.

eta: is eating the placenta a form of cannibalism? and did you all ever read the anne rice book where the twins didnt get to eat their mothers' organs when she died? I thought the premise was quite beautiful.
HerthElde is offline  
#75 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 01:36 PM
 
nonconformnmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the wilderness
Posts: 5,160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Somewhat off-topic on the surface, but if anyone cares to explore this in-depth, it is right on topic of what is being discussed here.

Has anyone read Jared Diamond's "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race"? He talks about the impact that organized agriculture has had on society and the advantages of the hunter/gatherer lifestyle. It is very interesting in light of the discussion on this thread. Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming helped bring another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions. Hunter-gatherers have little or no stored food, and no concentrated food sources, like an orchard or a herd of cows: they live off the wild plants and animals they obtain each day. Therefore, there can be no kings, no class of social parasites who grow fat on food seized from others. Only in a farming population could a healthy, non-producing élite set itself above the disease-ridden masses.
Jared Diamond, Discover Magazine, May 1987.

This is the supreme example of eating locally, and of taking from the earth only what one truly needs, rather than hoarding surplus food and using it to wield power over others. As someone who is mostly, but not strictly, vegetarian, I find this reason for pause and perhaps a recognition that there are things to be said for an omni diet, as well.
nonconformnmom is offline  
#76 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 01:54 PM
 
Mommay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here to There
Posts: 882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, this thread just became interesting. It goes to show that omni's are truly mindful on mothering.

I just wanted to address a small point. Gigglebirds, you asked what I meant by "more positive". I meant that if the primary reasons for why I was a Buddhist was because I was anti-Christian, that would be negative. And if every time I gave my reasons, I kept going on about them dang-nammit Christians with their *$#!! views, then to me, my reasons for being a Budhhist would not be positive. I would be defining myself in terms of what I don't like and want as opposed to what I genuinely believe in.

Your "gross out" tactics remind me of "The Passion of Christ". If you don't like gore and mutilation, become a veg*n. But again, where is the focus on the positive reasons for bein veg*n?
Mommay is offline  
#77 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 02:09 PM
 
pampered_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere short of crazy
Posts: 4,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiggleBirds View Post
At the risk of many flying tomatoes, would you condone eating mentally capacitated persons who have no concept of their futures? If that is your basis, I mean...
No...I don't believe that's the basis of my argument. Did you read everything I wrote?

At the risk of encouraging you to continue with ridiculous arguments like the one above - No...I would not eat a mentally incapacitated (or capacitated person as you wrote). It's starting to look like that you read what I wrote and just picked up on whatever salacious bit you wanted to use to further your argument.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record because I swear I've probably said this three times in this discussion so far....the mentally incapacitated (and capacitated) persons are....PEOPLE and not animals. Regardless of that person's mental capacity they are still people and you can't equate the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiggleBirds
Granted, I am not a conventional person, but I am just trying to follow down the lines of logic provided for me to their end, and to understand the basis for the reasons stated for eating meat. Personally I find it fascinating because I cannot understand the mindset behind it and am trying to understand it. If my questions make you uncomfortable, I'm sorry. But really I'm just trying to understand how a person can think an animal shouldn't have the same rights as a human. And where/why that line is.
See...I don't think you are trying to follow the lines of logic to their end and understand anything. So far all I've seen you do is attempt to get people to understand that you think humans and animals are the same and should be treated the same. I get that's what you think. I don't agree with you anymore than you agree with me. Seriously...if you'd like to understand a true omnivore's thoughts on the issue I would suggest investigating a few other well written sources outside of PETA and anyother AR organization. Because honestly, to read someone's argument for the purpose of learning how to argue against it isn't the same thing as actually reading to understand it. Have you ever read Michael Pollan's book "The Ominvore's Dilema"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommay
I would be defining myself in terms of what I don't like and want as opposed to what I genuinely believe in.
I would completely agree with this statement. I don't want to be known for what I am against - be that in religious or non-religious situations because in my mind that detracts from whatever I'm for. I feel that if I'm always defining the constructs of the argument into what I'm against then ultimately I will discourage folks from investigating what I'm for.

And yes, GiggleBirds I am glad, like several others here mentioned, that you are able to continue eating a vegan lifestyle with no adverse effects on your health. My family and I tried a mindful l/o lifestyle for about a year - year and a half tops. In that short period of time we were already seeing warning signs and experiencing diminished health. I for one was not willing to risk the health of my family in order to continue the experiment. And, ultimately, like Gale Force it becomes an issue of finding the best sources to fill in the gaps where you are lacking. I don't know as I would eat just about anything (like houseflies) to fill those gaps, but if we continued to experience deficiencies you can bet I probably would.
pampered_mom is offline  
#78 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 02:22 PM
 
knome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rockport, MA
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For me, it's come down to a simple equation: How close can I get to the diet that created our species?

We are what we are.. we have needs, our bodies were created in the way they are and so we are stuck with it. Why rail against those things we cannot control?

I was a Vegetarian for 6 years and was very careful.. my health still declined and its taken 5+ years to get back on track. Obviously everyone doesn't have this experience, but I've a friend who weaned off veggie after a similar amount of time, and she knows two more. It is most definitely not for everyone's body.

If we need to kill animals to live healthily, then why can't we just take a philosophical approach and give those animals a respectful, contented life and a painless death? THAT is my objection to current practice, and is why I stick as much as possible to meat that I know is produced in this way.
knome is offline  
#79 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 02:23 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 4,950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
But she's being so logical that she agrees that if she had an mentally incapacitated child, that child (and I imagine any other child) is on the same level with a steer down the road. That's where logic leads in this case and she's standing behind it. The same logic says that my child is at the level of the house flies my husband was just swatting. The same logic would suggest that if the house was on fire I should make as much effort to save those house flies as my son. That's where logic gets us on the AR vegan side. It's about as attractive as cannabolism.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#80 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 02:25 PM
 
pampered_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere short of crazy
Posts: 4,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gale Force
But she's being so logical that she agrees that if she had an mentally incapacitated child, that child (and I imagine any other child) is on the same level with a steer down the road. That's where logic leads in this case and she's standing behind it. The same logic says that my child is at the level of the house flies my husband was just swatting. The same logic would suggest that if the house was on fire I should make as much effort to save those house flies as my son. That's where logic gets us on the AR vegan side. It's about as attractive as cannabolism
I couldn't agree more.
pampered_mom is offline  
#81 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 05:43 PM
 
lisalou's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,568
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
Thanks for the offer, btw. You all could eat me too I'm not gluten free, however.
Sorry this just cracked me up.

I became a vegetarian for awhile after reading Bataille's Theory of Religion. I was very moved by the idea that we've gone from religions that took the whole earth into account to religions that made us masters of creation. Eventually free range and organic came along and that fit in with my beliefs so I'm back to being an omnivore. I feel like that by not being an omnivore I'm disrespecting the earth and the diet biologically I'm supposed to be eating. I want to be part of the circle of life. And I want to be mindful of it. I've never thought it wrong to eat an animal just wrong to disrespect it. I think factory farming disrespects animals and veggies and fruits too.

I'm very lucky I live in a state where organic produce is easy to get as well as organic meats. I'll be eating a turkey this Thanksgiving that grew up 2 miles from my house. I will be using every bit of that turkey from initial meal with giblet gravy to stock from it's bones.
lisalou is offline  
#82 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 06:35 PM
 
pampered_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere short of crazy
Posts: 4,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisalou View Post
I want to be part of the circle of life. And I want to be mindful of it. I've never thought it wrong to eat an animal just wrong to disrespect it. I think factory farming disrespects animals and veggies and fruits too.

I'm very lucky I live in a state where organic produce is easy to get as well as organic meats. I'll be eating a turkey this Thanksgiving that grew up 2 miles from my house. I will be using every bit of that turkey from initial meal with giblet gravy to stock from it's bones.
Very well put. I also think it's being a good steward of the resources available to use every bit available from nose to tail and everything in between so to speak. So that not one bit goes to waste.
pampered_mom is offline  
#83 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 07:40 PM
 
MyLittleWonders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Always learning something new.
Posts: 7,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Following the logic of the steer down the road being on the same level as your child (or any other human); why is it okay for animals in general, or to get more specific, mammals, to kill and eat meat? If they are no different from us in terms of the ability to feel, and maybe think ... if their lives are just as valuable as ours, then shouldn't *all* animals be vegan (for mammals, they'd be vegan once weaned)? Why is it okay for them to kill a prey and partake on the food chain in a natural way, and yet it's not okay for us to take our part (as I see it) on the food chain?

 Me + dh = heartbeat.gif ds (7/01), ds (11/03), ds (6/06)
and dd born 11/21/10 - our T21 SuperBaby ribbluyel.gif heartbeat.gif
MyLittleWonders is offline  
#84 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:11 PM
 
GiggleBirds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Silly Town!
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No, I wouldn't put the steer down the road above my child. I would be as sad if I knew it as intimately as I knew my daughter. I have spent hours in a field with cows, and their gentle, kind eyes held as much wonder and beauty as any human eye.

That's all.
GiggleBirds is offline  
#85 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:26 PM
 
pampered_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere short of crazy
Posts: 4,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders View Post
Following the logic of the steer down the road being on the same level as your child (or any other human); why is it okay for animals in general, or to get more specific, mammals, to kill and eat meat? If they are no different from us in terms of the ability to feel, and maybe think ... if their lives are just as valuable as ours, then shouldn't *all* animals be vegan (for mammals, they'd be vegan once weaned)? Why is it okay for them to kill a prey and partake on the food chain in a natural way, and yet it's not okay for us to take our part (as I see it) on the food chain?
Isn't the logical conclusion then that there is in fact some difference in the way that humans think, reason, feel than the way that animals do?
pampered_mom is offline  
#86 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:32 PM
 
GiggleBirds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Silly Town!
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Aren't most acts of violence supported under the paradigm of difference?

What about the one of sameness? That's the one I'm operating under.
GiggleBirds is offline  
#87 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:38 PM
 
pampered_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere short of crazy
Posts: 4,507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So in order to operate in a world of sameness we have to ignore that difference and pretend it doesn't exist? I'm just wondering how you explain the difference...
pampered_mom is offline  
#88 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:42 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 4,950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So under the sameness paradigm, would we expect to observe you spending the same amount of time helping the house fly out of the house during the fire as you would the human occupants?

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#89 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:49 PM
 
GiggleBirds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Silly Town!
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes I spend as much time as necessary helping all insects out of my home. If my daughter needs my attention during this time, I give it to her and resume when I can.

pampered_mom,

The thing about DIFFERENCE is, it is different, which means, ultimately, unknowable. So you can't know an animal, because you are not one (you know what I mean... yes you are, but not a non-human one). So given that, you do not know their feelings, purpose, etc. In my opinion, that in itself warrants respect.
GiggleBirds is offline  
#90 of 248 Old 11-20-2006, 08:57 PM
 
MyLittleWonders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Always learning something new.
Posts: 7,928
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You still didn't answer my question of the issue of veganism and the rest of the animal kingdom, or even within the realm of mammals. Why is okay for *other* animals to be omnis or even carnivores, but not okay for humans?

 Me + dh = heartbeat.gif ds (7/01), ds (11/03), ds (6/06)
and dd born 11/21/10 - our T21 SuperBaby ribbluyel.gif heartbeat.gif
MyLittleWonders is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off