The topic of Nutrition just as heated as Religion - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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Old 11-22-2006, 07:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Me too. I find it really disturbing, and upsetting, that everyone doesn't feel that way. Maybe it's a question I should ask prospective childcare providers. :
That is what I was thinking---Note to self: Make sure and ask the babysitter if Jack will be put above Fido in case of fire.

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Old 11-22-2006, 07:40 PM
 
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That is what I was thinking---Note to self: Make sure and ask the babysitter if Jack will be put above Fido in case of fire.
Why is the idea of this cracking me up?
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Old 11-22-2006, 07:47 PM
 
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That is what I was thinking---Note to self: Make sure and ask the babysitter if Jack will be put above Fido in case of fire.
This cracked me up too.

I've got a scenerio I'd like to share. Let's pretend your kid had a heart defect and could only be saved by getting a transplant from a baboon. Would you sacrifice the animal? When I was young, I said no, I wouldn't. I thought it would be unethical. Now that I'm a mother, you bet I would. A lot of people here seem to feel the same way about eating meat: they need it to live. Period. How can you aruge with that? Especially those folks who were vegetarians and found it didn't work for them. I get that.
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Old 11-22-2006, 07:52 PM
 
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Would you sacrifice the animal? When I was young, I said no, I wouldn't. I thought it would be unethical. Now that I'm a mother, you bet I would.
Me too, exactly this process.
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:48 PM
 
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I'm not exactly sure if this link fits in with this thread, but it's brochure for the major Eco conference for organic farming. I like to think our common goals-- healthy food and safe environment can co exist.

http://www.acresusa.com/events/06con...06Brochure.pdf
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Old 11-22-2006, 09:12 PM
 
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I read this whole thread and I don't remember anyone saying they would save an animal over a child.

There was mention by someone that she loves her cat's better than a stranger's child, but she did not go so far as to say she would save it over the child.

Honestly, I thought we were over these silly scenarios. Okay, omnis, if you had to choose between your bosses dog (who will fire you if you don't save it), and your sister in laws, whose will it be? Come on. There are many factors that go into making any decision and having the dichotomous either/or really does not reflect on the inherent worth of either.


As for vitamins B6 and B12, they are in abundance in nutritional yeast, which is very cheap. Here http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=6646 is a link to a nutritional analysis of it (scroll down). There are plenty of ways to get iron too. I have never had trouble with anemia and I don't go overboard worrying about it. I just eat spinach a few times per week (seaweed, etc, as well ).
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Old 11-22-2006, 09:18 PM
 
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I read this whole thread and I don't remember anyone saying they would save an animal over a child.
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Originally Posted by kaydee View Post
But while we are speaking of instinct, I think my instinct is to protect those I know and care about first. I love my son more than to my cats, but love my cats more than a stranger’s son. Something other than species definitions are at work in our actions.
(bold mine)

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Old 11-22-2006, 09:33 PM
 
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I can't speak for kaydee, but my interpretation of what she said was that she loves her cats more than a stranger's son, and thus, her instinct might be more compelling toward her cats. She didn't go so far as to say she would save them in a burning building over a child. Many, many factors would play into that decision. It's as silly as asking who's child you would save; your nephew, or the child you are babysitting? It's meaningless. We could infer all sorts of horrible things about you if you chose either one. But the choice scenario isn't fair or appropriate.

So, instinctively, yes, out of love and emotional attachment if she were driving down the road and saw her cat and another child, she may swerve away from her cat. Instinctively. I think she may have been speaking to this instinct, and nothing more.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GiggleBirds View Post
As for vitamins B6 and B12, they are in abundance in nutritional yeast, which is very cheap. Here http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=6646 is a link to a nutritional analysis of it (scroll down). There are plenty of ways to get iron too. I have never had trouble with anemia and I don't go overboard worrying about it. I just eat spinach a few times per week (seaweed, etc, as well ).
From what I understand nutritional (brewer's yeast) is rich in the B complex - except B12. The B12 is synthetic and added back in. Again, an analogue as in it's similar but not exactly the same and not as bioavailable as that found in animal sources. Not a big deal if you have enough stores of your own or if you're not deficient. In the case of someone starting from a place of deficiencies and it's better to get it from the best source possible.

I'm glad that you've never had trouble with anemia and that you have found things that work for you. We're not just talking about you, though.

I am not naieve enough to think that there is a one-size fits all way of eating that will work for everyone.
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Old 11-23-2006, 12:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by edamommy View Post
: I'm kind of sickish feeling yet feel like adding some hysterical laughter in there on this one! I guess, this is why I do not believe in a "god". But how nice that "he" gives one the ability to push of that guilt on "him"! WOW. I'm glad you wore the suit.
That was a bit harsh, don't you think? I stated my beliefs, and you just really blasted away. Good thing I did put it on! I can't image reacting so disrespectfully as that to another's stated beliefs. (even if I truly felt that way, I for sure wouldn't put it out there to offend the other person!)
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Old 11-23-2006, 01:56 AM
 
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Old 11-23-2006, 02:01 AM
 
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I am not a Christian, I am a Pagan, and my spirituality is consistent with my beliefs.
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Old 11-23-2006, 03:49 AM
 
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I was talking about instinct. As in "OH my God, there's my precious Fluffy!" -swerve- "oh shit, there's a kid!".

Instinct. Not intention.

I am 100% sure, though, that if that happened, anyone would be DEVASTATED. Do you think for a second if that happened she would be celebrating her cat's life and not going crazy about hitting a child? PLEASE. I really don't like how people are starting to assume that vegans don't care about anyone but animals. I really don't know how anyone has taken that from this conversation. :

From what I understood of her post, she was just saying there are many layers to love and to instinct. Eating vegan isn't about choosing animals over people. How the heck did this thread come to this?? Yikes.

Eating meat, however, is about choosing people over animals. Whether you feel justified or not in it, whether you believe animals have feelings, a soul, etc, that is still a fact. Eating meat isn't either/or, eat-or-die (for the VAST majority... those who have to or think they have to do not need to chime in again...) Vegan eating has no negative effect on humans whatsoever. So if you're going to apply the either/or dynamic, apply it to yourself (if you are a meat eater), where it belongs.

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Old 11-23-2006, 04:17 AM
 
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Here is another quote from Kaydee in case you missed it.

Quote:
#20 A house is on fire and a dog and a baby are inside. Which do you
save first?
-----------------------

The one I choose to save first tells us nothing about the ethical
decisions we face. I might decide to save my child before I saved yours,
but this certainly does not mean that I should be able to experiment on
your child, or exploit your child in some other way. We are not in an
emergency situation like a fire anyway. In everyday life, we can choose to
act in ways that protect the rights of both dogs and babies.
LK

Like anyone else in this situation, I would probably save the one to
which I am emotionally more attached. Most likely it would be the child.
Someone might prefer to save his own beloved dog before saving the baby
of a stranger. However, as LK states above, this tells us nothing about
any ethical principles.
DVH

Do you love your dog or cat more than you love a complete stranger you've never met? Of course you do. Does that speak in any way to whether you value that person's life? Probably not.

If I'm trying to get a fly out of my house and my daughter starts crying I don't ignore her. Nor do I say "eff it" and kill the fly. Get it?

AND that doesn't mean that I hurt my daughter (or the kid I'm babysitting, etc...) to save the fly.
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GiggleBirds View Post
Do you love your dog or cat more than you love a complete stranger you've never met? Of course you do. Does that speak in any way to whether you value that person's life? Probably not.
chiming in late here and maybe I'm not understanding this but in a situation that endangers a strangers child or my own dog/cat, I would definitely not think twice about my dog/cat.....I would instinctively protect the child or adult or whoever the *person* may be. I wouldnt be a fraction of a bit upset hitting an animal as I would a person/child even if it was my dog of ten years......it still doesnt compare to harming a human.....

Here's me I married then we had dd15 , dd11 , ds10 , and then and now we and I blog!
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:30 AM
 
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I'll believe that when I see it in nature. I think it's arrogant to believe that we know all there is to know about vitamins and minerals and what makes healthy soil composition.
There's a nature conservation area nearby that's been around for years and years and it's not doing so well, due to the lack of animal involvement. Last I heard they were going to introduce some intensively managed bison to try and revive it. Wish I knew more about it, but I haven't had the time to look into it. It's called Wanuskewin, if anyone wants to look it up . . . I don't know if they have a website or not.
My first thought is, what sad kind of nature area has no animal involvment? Unless it is a newly reclaimed Superfund site, that seems--well, impossible.

My second thought is that I wonder if you are familiar with the extensive studies on veganic (vegan + organic) agriculture done in the UK over the last 10+ years? I can't recall the study center name--Elm Farm, maybe? Something like that....Of course, that's not purely "in nature"--but then again, farmed cows and pigs etc., aren't exactly purely "natural" either.

Quote:
One more hypothetical and then I really will go (these threads are hard to stay away from ):
If you had a crystal ball that allowed you to see your great great great grandchildren, and it showed that if you did NOT eat meat, but instead chose a "nutritionally complete" veg*n diet, they had become progressively weaker to the point of degenerative diseases at young ages, rampant digestive problems and inability to reproduce, whereas if you DID eat animal products, they were healthy, strong and virile . . . would you still avoid meat?
Well, to quote you , "I think it's arrogant to think we know all there is to know about vitamins and minerals and what makes healthy" nutrition. I know I do fine without animal products, and you know you need them.

But I'll bite: I am not utterly self-defeating. If the crystal ball presented me with that vision, I would eat animals or animal products. But I would do it as low down on the food chain as I could, and involve the least sentient animals possible (mussels, scallops, or clams would be my preference). Because even then, causing the least suffering would be my aim.

To turn the tables What if the crystal ball told you that you DIDN'T need animal products to be "healthy, strong, and virile"? Would you still eat meat?
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by newcastlemama View Post
(bold mine)

Since you seem to have missed several salient points of my posts, newcastlemama, here is the Reader's Digest version of what I said.

I love my kid more than my cats. I love my cats more than a human stranger.

These hypotheticals--the kids and the rat in the burning building, the baboon heart and the dying child--are, IMO, silly.

No, worse than silly. They can actually be damaging, I believe, because although they are provocative and exciting to discuss (and allow us to be : and : and about other people's answers and feel all morally superior) they don't actually help us understand each other or help us devise a practical ethical code. They are, IMO, irrelevant distractions from the real issue(s) at hand.

As I CLEARLY said before, the choices offered in these hypotheticals are false dichotomies. Most of us will never be faced with a burning building housing a child and a dog. No single baboon heart can help a single child. Yet every day, we can make humane compassionate choices.

I have no idea what I'd do facing that building, and honestly, I don't care. If I'm ever faced with that unlikely scenario, I'll just wing it. I'd rather put my energy into the decisions I am faced with every day.

Because that's what ethics are--what we do, not what we say we would do.
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Old 11-23-2006, 05:20 AM
 
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It's the attack of the serial poster! :


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Originally Posted by thismama
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Originally Posted by JSerene
Would you sacrifice the animal? When I was young, I said no, I wouldn't. I thought it would be unethical. Now that I'm a mother, you bet I would.
Me too, exactly this process.
Becoming a parent has expanded my sense of compassion in so many ways. One of the ways was to have more empathy for the animals used in agriculture--especially the mother animals used in dairy production, continually impregnated, then separated from their babies.

Reading accounts by Temple Grandin (not an animal rights activist my any stretch of the imagination) of mother cows and calves crying for each other at dairy farms became even more heart-shattering after having my son.

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Originally Posted by pamered_mom View Post
From what I understand nutritional (brewer's yeast) is rich in the B complex - except B12.
Just FYI, Brewer's yeast and nutritional yeast are not the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gardenmommy
I also believe, that without that sort of Biblical framework, it is nearly impossible to separate humans from animals. Without a higher reason for being, there is no distinction between humans and animals. Humans think, so do animals; humans feel, so do animals; humans love and nurture their young, so do animals. There are some animals who are probably smarter, more intelligent, have greater mental capacity than some humans. So, without a Bibilcal context for human value, why is the lower capacitated human worth more than the higher capacitated animal?
Oh my gosh--we agree on something! I can see where with your beliefs about the Bible and God, you would have the view of animals that you do. You explained it really well, which I appreciate. I don't agree (either about God, the Bible, or animal's place in our world ) but I get what you are saying.
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Old 11-23-2006, 01:53 PM
 
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You know, I disagree strongly with a lot of what I've seen posted on here. However, I still respect the various people represented here: you have clearly thought through your choices carefully. I may think they are [insert descriptor of choice- silly, wrong, foolish, dumb, excellent, etc.], but still, I think that it is foolhardy and damaging to bash others' viewpoints. When we begin to attack each other, we lose the opportunity and ability to learn from each other; we lose respect for each other. When that happens, we lose the ability to teach a greater lesson to our children, that is, the ability to get along with others with whom we strongly disagree.

Consistent with my spiritual beliefs, I believe that we need to show love and grace to others, even when we disagree with them. Which is why, even if I do think your viewpoint it ridiculous, I will not say so. I will try to understand you, even to the point of agreeing to disagree, just so that to whatever degree I am responsible, I can maintain the peace between us.
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Old 11-23-2006, 01:54 PM
 
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kaydee, lol! I'm glad we can agree on *something*!
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Old 11-23-2006, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kaydee View Post
My first thought is, what sad kind of nature area has no animal involvment? Unless it is a newly reclaimed Superfund site, that seems--well, impossible.
You're right, of course, there are plenty of small mammals. However, the land in this area (open prairie) does need grazing mammals in order to remain healthy. Because (due to the existence of cities, farmland, etc) these animals cannot follow a proper grazing path, they must be managed.

Quote:
My second thought is that I wonder if you are familiar with the extensive studies on veganic (vegan + organic) agriculture done in the UK over the last 10+ years? I can't recall the study center name--Elm Farm, maybe? Something like that....Of course, that's not purely "in nature"--but then again, farmed cows and pigs etc., aren't exactly purely "natural" either.
I'm not familiar with it, no, thanks for the heads up. I will look into it
Are you familiar with PolyfaceFarm, or with Permaculture concepts, intensively managed pastured animals, etc? There's a difference between the "let 'em out and do what they please" pastured cow and the intensively managed, mimicing-natural-grazing-patterns-as-closely-as possible-pastured-cow.


Quote:
"I think it's arrogant to think we know all there is to know about vitamins and minerals and what makes healthy" nutrition.
On that we agree. I believe (and I am aware that this is a debated issue) that humans evolved eating meat. Which, to me, means that there are components of meat that we need. I can buy not needing grains or not needing dairy, but not not eating meat.
Quote:
I know I do fine without animal products, and you know you need them.
And I don't begrudge you that. If anything, I'm much more interested in stopping the horrid conditions of factory farms and monocrops You already know I don't think veganism is ecologically viable longterm, but there really aren't enough vegans in the world for it to be much of a concern to me and I'd rather rail against the majority anyway.

Quote:
But I'll bite: I am not utterly self-defeating. If the crystal ball presented me with that vision, I would eat animals or animal products. But I would do it as low down on the food chain as I could, and involve the least sentient animals possible (mussels, scallops, or clams would be my preference). Because even then, causing the least suffering would be my aim.
Who decides what defines sentience? Moreover, none of the animals you listed are local to me. I was pondering this the other day, and it struck me that every single food in my house that isn't local is vegan. And as far as low on the food chain, I believe humans are meant to eat low on the foodchain too. I don't eat carnivores.
But the point of asking the question was to illustrate that this is the reality facing many of us traditional foods people. Except that we don't need a crystal ball because it's ourselves or our children that we're observing. And I brought it up because I really think GiggleBirds is trying to understand how a seemingly compassionate person could possibly eat meat.

Quote:
To turn the tables What if the crystal ball told you that you DIDN'T need animal products to be "healthy, strong, and virile"? Would you still eat meat?
I do want to answer this one but the answer is more complex than I initially thought. I've been thinking about it all morning, and one of my biggest stumbling blocks to the question is my belief system that humans evolved eating meat, therefore we need meat.
Anyway, don't let me forget to type out a response. And thank you for such a thought-provoking question.
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Old 11-23-2006, 03:52 PM
 
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You know, I disagree strongly with a lot of what I've seen posted on here. However, I still respect the various people represented here: you have clearly thought through your choices carefully. I may think they are [insert descriptor of choice- silly, wrong, foolish, dumb, excellent, etc.], but still, I think that it is foolhardy and damaging to bash others' viewpoints. When we begin to attack each other, we lose the opportunity and ability to learn from each other; we lose respect for each other. When that happens, we lose the ability to teach a greater lesson to our children, that is, the ability to get along with others with whom we strongly disagree.

Consistent with my spiritual beliefs, I believe that we need to show love and grace to others, even when we disagree with them. Which is why, even if I do think your viewpoint it ridiculous, I will not say so. I will try to understand you, even to the point of agreeing to disagree, just so that to whatever degree I am responsible, I can maintain the peace between us.
Well said.
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:13 PM
 
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for everyone.

I don't think debate and argument over a passionate, complex issue means we can't all get along in other areas of life...
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Old 11-23-2006, 04:21 PM
 
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You already know I don't think veganism is ecologically viable longterm
Let me clarify this. I do believe that veganism is ecologically viable in some locations, but not as a global solution. I also believe that in places where veganism is not a locally sustainable possibility, people are much more likely to come into health problems with veganism (in other words, I think that eating locally is a large part of health).
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Old 11-23-2006, 05:06 PM
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Vegan eating has no negative effect on humans whatsoever.
This statement is the main focal point of this debate, IMO. I respectfully disagree, as do many other thoughtful omnis. I know people IRL and online who lost their health to a frightening degree while eating a vegan or vegetarian diet, and were cured by reintroducing animal products. They were not getting or assimilating the nutrients they needed to live, without eating meat, eggs and/or dairy. They were careful about their veg diets, too - diverse, whole foods, not processed fake foods, not white bread and twinkie vegans.

So, I think the premise that vegan eating has no negative effect on humans is the lynchpin - if you believe that to be true, then there is no legitimate reason to eat any kind of animal product, because you believe your desire to not exploit animals for food does not need to take precedence over your personal health, and it's easy to say about people who lost their health eating veg that they didn't do things right, weren't careful, dedicated or pure enough.

If you do not believe the above quoted statement to be true, whether based on direct personal experience or on the experiences/research of others, then eating vegan or feeding your children vegan becomes a matter of valuing the lives of the animals over your own, so you include carefully chosen animal foods (and you hopefully choose the most humane and ecological animal foods possible, as do the TF people I know). Like everything else, it comes down to a matter of personal perspective. Science and ethics issues can be massaged and manipulated to support just about anything.

I'm pleased to see that this conversation keeps veering back towards civility. (All my "you"s above are figurative, not directed at any one particular person.)

There is no secret ingredient.
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:06 PM
 
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Okay, for the record, I'm not a vegan yet. I still occasionally, but very rarely, eat dairy, though nine times out of ten that's organic, local stuff from happy cows (the rest is cuz I dont' have the balls to refuse to eat unorganic when I'm dining at a friend's house ).

I admit that I am not super well researched on all aspects of vegan living. However, I have been a vegetarian for 15 years, and have not have any ill effects. I hear so often of many vegans feeling far more healthy than they ever did.

So from everything I've heard, my guestimation is that 75% of folks, at least, could fare well on a vegan or vegetarian diet.

And there's still the question of whether an animal's life is worth someone's relative health. It would have to take some pretty serious health issues with absolutely no means of alternative supplementation to get me to consider killing an animal. And even then... I don't think I could.

But everything is relative, as I stated in my first post.

I guess if just a couple of McNuggeters happened upon this thread and gave the issue some deep thought, I've done my part. Doesn't feel like enough, but I guess it's something...

Oh, and I do want to point out that any intensity/confusion/frustration I have expressed was more or less with regard to people who don't NEED to eat meat... or haven't tested out a veggie lifestyle to see if they don't. That's what troubles me. That would make it unnecessary suffering, no?
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Old 11-23-2006, 11:14 PM
 
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:11 PM
 
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Wow, I didn't really perceive anyone here as being anti-vegan, just pro-health. Veganism doesn't work for everyone, and being an omni doesn't work for everyone. There is no "one" way. What I appreciate about this board is the varied ideas about life and the many different perspectives on health. I think it's really neat that an omni can come here and find that maybe veganism will be the answer to their health problems, just as a vegan may find that a little tweak might make all the difference. We have a large community to draw from. I know I have been helped and supported, just as I hope that I have done the same for someone else.

I would really hope that everyone could bring and take what they need and just leave the rest behind. Noone is here with bad intentions, and there have been many points of common ground found. I have seen posts on this thread where people of very different opinions have come to understand the others perspective. Of course there is some heated discussion, but that's just the nature of the topic. Not everyone is going to agree. That's fine as long as noone is being attacked or belittled. I would really hate to see anyone leave the board because people are passionate about their beliefs. To me, that's the beauty of MDC. Too often in life I see individuals or groups making bad decisions out of convenience. I love that people here have such conviction-even if those convictions change!

I'm sorry anyone feels badly as a result of this discussion. It would be our loss as a whole to lose any one of our members.
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
Wow, I didn't really perceive anyone here as being anti-vegan, just pro-health. Veganism doesn't work for everyone, and being an omni doesn't work for everyone. There is no "one" way. What I appreciate about this board is the varied ideas about life and the many different perspectives on health. I think it's really neat that an omni can come here and find that maybe veganism will be the answer to their health problems, just as a vegan may find that a little tweak might make all the difference. We have a large community to draw from. I know I have been helped and supported, just as I hope that I have done the same for someone else.

I would really hope that everyone could bring and take what they need and just leave the rest behind. Noone is here with bad intentions, and there have been many points of common ground found. I have seen posts on this thread where people of very different opinions have come to understand the others perspective. Of course there is some heated discussion, but that's just the nature of the topic. Not everyone is going to agree. That's fine as long as noone is being attacked or belittled. I would really hate to see anyone leave the board because people are passionate about their beliefs. To me, that's the beauty of MDC. Too often in life I see individuals or groups making bad decisions out of convenience. I love that people here have such conviction-even if those convictions change!

I'm sorry anyone feels badly as a result of this discussion. It would be our loss as a whole to lose any one of our members.

Very well said. Thank you. I'm a vegetarian and don't feel the least bit attacked. If anything, this has been a fun discussion. Too often in my circles the health and environmental benefits of vegan and vegetarian living are taken as absolute fact. It's really interesting to see a different perspective, even if I don't agree with all of it. It's been great food for thought.

from dnw826 "and anti-Animal Rights is truly disturbing me."

I don't understand where you're coming from here. The omni's on this board have talked quite a bit about raising animals humanely and sustainably. I don't think anyone dismisses the suffering of animals. Besides, if your point of view, whatever that may be, can't withstand a little questioning and criticism, you weren't standing on very solid ground in the first place.
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Old 11-24-2006, 10:32 PM
 
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Okay, but you wouldn't tell an anti-circer they were being dramatic, even if they used anesthesia. For most of us, no matter what precedes the killing, it is still killing. If you can't understand why that is horrific, fine. But it is to a lot of us.




(eta: I am personally happy for the measures many take to prevent the suffering. But it is still a matter of degree. And the killing and consuming of animals is usually unnecessary.)
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