Cow milk - good or bad? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 03:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tboroson View Post
I don't think any human being needs milk. Clearly, our society survived for milennia before figuring out how to milk other species. Much of the world thrives with little to no dairy in their diets.

That doesn't mean that I think all humans should, therefore, abstain from drinking it. It's a culturally important food product, and has incredible emotional and social connections that are hard to deny. Further, while it's certainly not the "perfect" food that the dairy industry would have us believe (especially in the horribly damaged form they sell to us, pasteurized and homogenized), it is a nutritionally dense food. In our current environment of processed, severely nutritionally diminished foods (i.e. juice and crackers), I don't think that it's wise to disparage one of the few nutritionally dense foods that remains readily and inexpensively available to us just because it's imperfect.

My opinion is, while cow's/goat's milk is not *neccisary* for anyone, the one group that most benefits from it is toddlers who are not still nursing. I believe that toddlers need a lot of cholesterol, efa's and minerals. If you're still nursing your son, I don't think he needs supplemental milk at all. He gets plenty of good stuff from your breastmilk. I don't feel it would hurt to give him some, unless he turns out to be sensitive to it; but I don't think he needs it. For a toddler who is weaned, though, milk is a very effective way to deliver those factors, especially within the constraints of a vegetarian diet.

you know, i often struggle with the whole dairy thing, but this post really makes so much sense, and is essentially my feelings on the subject. thank you for putting it so eloquently!

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#32 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 01:18 PM
 
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A couple of comments...

First, I'm not sure a "medical" study from 1929 is a valid support in favor of milk especially in light of much more recent studies on saturated fat.

Second, raw milk has the added risk of infectious disease such as listeria- obviously a risk for pregnant women and small children.

Third, raw or pasteurized, you're still consuming a product that is high in saturated fat and thus putting yourself at risk for heart disease.

Do I think milk is some evil food to be avoided at all costs? No. But I don't think regular consumption is healthy and it certainly isn't some miracle food. (unless, maybe, you don't have access to any other food, which certainly isn't the case in this country.)

I would have doubted all this, too, a couple of years ago. I mean, 'milk, it does a body good" right? But I've since done a lot of research about dairy products and wanted to pass on some of the surprising things I found out. Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. I really don't mean to.
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#33 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 02:22 PM
 
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G-mama -- it's true. We don't *really* know. Studies are not designed to test the kinds of things that are being discussed in this thread.

The link is not to a medical study at all, but to a type of diet that doctors used 100 years ago and they had success curing a lot of diseases. If milk is really that bad, it does seem strange that you can live on it for a month (or much longer in some cases as described by the doctors) and actually get rid of your autoimmune diseases and a host of other conditions. Porter treated people for 30 years with the diet -- thousands of people. Apparently he documented each case in some detail. I wonder where that documentation is now. It probably no longer exists.

Given this human experience, even though much of it is 100 years old, don't you think we should ask whether there are benefits to drinking the type of milk people drank 100 years ago? Current studies on saturated fat or on milk are not designed to address this question, so we can argue until we're blue in the face, but there is no evidence either way.

You're not stepping on my toes, pass on the information about dairy. It's all interesting.

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#34 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 02:31 PM
 
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#35 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 02:54 PM
 
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I read of a study from over 100 years ago that the most easily digested milk is donkey milk.

I have milked a donkey but never tasted it.
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#36 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 04:09 PM
 
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I read of a study from over 100 years ago that the most easily digested milk is donkey milk.

I have milked a donkey but never tasted it.
Where? Tell us!

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#37 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 04:28 PM
 
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Where? Tell us!
About 5 years ago I had a jenny who had her baby in the dead of winter and the baby didn't do well so we brought it into the house and I milked the jenny to force feed the baby.

It rather like milking a goat with short nipples except the donkey is much larger.
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#38 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 05:33 PM
 
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G-mama -- it's true. We don't *really* know. Studies are not designed to test the kinds of things that are being discussed in this thread.

The link is not to a medical study at all, but to a type of diet that doctors used 100 years ago and they had success curing a lot of diseases. If milk is really that bad, it does seem strange that you can live on it for a month (or much longer in some cases as described by the doctors) and actually get rid of your autoimmune diseases and a host of other conditions. Porter treated people for 30 years with the diet -- thousands of people. Apparently he documented each case in some detail. I wonder where that documentation is now. It probably no longer exists.

Given this human experience, even though much of it is 100 years old, don't you think we should ask whether there are benefits to drinking the type of milk people drank 100 years ago? Current studies on saturated fat or on milk are not designed to address this question, so we can argue until we're blue in the face, but there is no evidence either way.

You're not stepping on my toes, pass on the information about dairy. It's all interesting.
Glad no toe stepping is going on!

I think, however, that the 100 year old research that you're refering to is coming from the dentist that the Weston-Price Foundation cites. From what I've gathered, his research was spotty at best.
Here is Dr. T. Colin Campbell addressing this issue at the 2006 Healthy Lifestyle Expo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxb7XPm_SxU

And here's the article to which he refers:
http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/c...onse_print.htm

I think he does a pretty thorough job of discrediting this 'science'. And I believe he even addresses the depleted soil issue (although I would have liked him to write more about this.)

I'm curious, too, though. There does seem to be a lot of conflicting work out there- I just happen to think, thus far, that a much stronger case has been made in favor of limiting animal products.

There's also this which was interesting:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives...tml#discussion

Ok. My face is now very blue.
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#39 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 06:43 PM
 
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I think, however, that the 100 year old research that you're refering to is coming from the dentist that the Weston-Price Foundation cites. From what I've gathered, his research was spotty at best.
I was referring to the books referenced on the milk diet website. Those are not "research" as much as we know it today as much as they are self-help how-to type of books based on the life's work of several doctors. One doctor wrote one in the mid-1800s, another in the early 1900s that went through at least 10 editions, and then the MacFadden book. Hippocrates was apparently the first person of any reknown to use the milk diet to cure disease.

I don't know what any of the milk books have to do with Weston Price. Weston Price was big on butter because of one of the properties of butter fat, but I'm not aware of him otherwise promoting exclusive milk diets. In fact, the milk diet books discuss using skim milks for the milk diet which would effectively cut out the key property that Price liked so much.
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#40 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 06:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by momto l&a View Post
About 5 years ago I had a jenny who had her baby in the dead of winter and the baby didn't do well so we brought it into the house and I milked the jenny to force feed the baby.

It rather like milking a goat with short nipples except the donkey is much larger.
So you brought the baby in the house not the mom, right? Just checking.

You know you are in the presence of an expert when she is describing the nipple size.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#41 of 46 Old 12-02-2006, 06:49 PM
 
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I think, however, that the 100 year old research that you're refering to is coming from the dentist that the Weston-Price Foundation cites. From what I've gathered, his research was spotty at best.
The research is actually interesting. The open question is to what degree it suggests that animal products are necessary in the human diet. He did not use norms of modern science to collect (possibly) and analyze (possibly) his data, so it brings up a lot of questions. I say "possibly" because we don't really know from the book. Certain parts of his design are not made explicit and that's the problem.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#42 of 46 Old 12-04-2006, 03:16 PM
 
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If milk is really that bad, it does seem strange that you can live on it for a month (or much longer in some cases as described by the doctors) and actually get rid of your autoimmune diseases and a host of other conditions.
I wish I could remember where I read it, but I think I read that diabetics could live solely on raw milk for the rest of their lives without having to use insulin (it was one of the problems the old-time doctors treated with the raw milk diet). This is interesting, because aren't the studies now saying that regular factory-farm milk may cause or aggravate diabetes?

I don't know if this has been posted before (sorry if it has), but here's a link to a report that was submitted to the L.A. County Board of Supervisors when they were considering lifting the ban to sell raw milk. Because of it, they voted to lift it. It contains a lot of information about raw milk, a lot of it prepared by Dr. William Douglass, author of "The Milk Book: The Milk of Human Kindness is Not Pasteurized."

"SUPPLEMENTAL REPORT IN FAVOR OF RAW MILK"

http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/p15.htm

I would like to write more, but my dd is trashing my office, so I gotta run.
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#43 of 46 Old 12-04-2006, 03:29 PM
 
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Thanks for the link and reminding me that I haven't responded to your email:

The milk doctors used clabbered milk for diabetes because of the lower sugar content. Regular milk would be too high in sugar.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#44 of 46 Old 12-04-2006, 11:11 PM
 
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Thanks for the link and reminding me that I haven't responded to your email:
It's okay! I'm glad to be able to post here again, although my dh is now trying to convince me to paint the kitchen (Last week I went through a three-day ordeal of washing, priming, and painting the walls of our living room. NEVER AGAIN!).

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The milk doctors used clabbered milk for diabetes because of the lower sugar content. Regular milk would be too high in sugar.
That makes sense. I finally made clabbered milk successfully last month, instead of extremely sour, horribly-tasting milk. I just wasn't using a high enough temperature. It is delicious!

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#45 of 46 Old 12-05-2006, 01:26 AM
 
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Not to hijack, but how do you successfully make clabbered milk?

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#46 of 46 Old 12-05-2006, 01:38 PM
 
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Not to hijack, but how do you successfully make clabbered milk?
I had read that you can leave raw milk out overnight (in a closed mason jar), but that's not true. It works best in a warm oven, at least at my house.

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