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#121 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by RubyWild View Post
I don't judge people for not being able afford to buy organic. I do, however, know specific people who say they can't afford it, but they can afford expensive face creams and razors or pre-packaged foods and fast food or alcohol and lottery tickets and coffee. It's the lack of insight into the choices they're making that seems hypocritical to me.

Again, I'm not talking about people who truly can't afford it, but rather people I personally know who have made certain choices in their lives that make it then impossible for them to see that they actually could afford to make different choices.
See this is my question from the beginning? Why does someone have a right to question others choices? Not knocking you, but are you totally correct in how you live? Do you treat all people equitably? Is your heart completely without malice? Do you walk everywhere instead of drive? Is your house a total "green home"? Are you off the grid? Did you bf or did you not?
(These questions are directed at you, simply rhetorical)

People my point is there is a snobbery that suggests my choices are right and if you are not making my choice its because you dont care, you dont plan, you arent using your money to the best of your ability. Who passes out the halo's that say your way is the best way?

What I hope is that we acknowledge that what we do is best for our families. Without having to justify a choice. To me elitism suggests people owe an explaination for making a different choice.
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#122 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 01:00 PM
 
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Y'know, I get what you're saying Yinsum, but that is not what Ruby Wild said. she said she knew people who said they couldn't AFFORD it, but made other expensive luxury purchases. That's different from somebody saying, "Organic foods are not a high priority for me and I'd rather buy fancy face cream," and then another person saying, "You could afford it if you wanted to and had your priorities straight. Don't you know the world is going to heck in a handbasket because of luxury face creams?!" That's an organic advocate being judgmental. The first person said it wasn't a high priority not that they couldn't afford it. If somebody says they just don't think it's that important in their life, well, that's a choice and if somebody judges that then that's a big fat judgement.

On the other hand if somebody says "It's too expensive. I can't afford it," and then goes out and buys a bunch of luxury items then that doesn't jibe with what they said about affordablilty. The person is not being honest either about their priorities or about staying within their budget. I don't know if that's what rubs other organic advocates the wrong way, but if somebody said that to me that would rub me the wrong way. I actually can't recall anybody saying to me (outside MDC) that they can't afford organic foods (it just doesn't come up), but if they did I would do as I did in my previous post to this thread and offer some suggestions for making it more affordable. If a person doesn't want to eat organic that's her choice, but if she says she can't afford to and somebody offers her some ways to make it more affordable and she feels judged, well...

here are some analogies --

breastfeeding vs formula feeding.

mama 1 says, "It's just too hard. I don't have enough milk. I don't have enough support. I'm going to formula feed."
mama 2 offers support, coaching, LLL and LC contacts.

should mama 1 feel judged?

mama 3 says, "It's too hard. I can't do it."
mama 4 says, "You could if you wanted to. It's what's best for your baby. If you really cared about your baby you would do it."

If I was mama 3 in the second scenario, sure I'd feel judged.

mama 5 says, "I've made the choice to formula feed. That's what we've decided on. Breastfeeding is just not for me."
mama 6 says, "Well, if you have second thoughts I can give you some resources."

judgement? I don't think so.


does any of that make any sense or is it as clear as mud? I think when somebody says "It's too expensive. I can't afford it," people hearing that sometimes ASSume that the first person would like to be able to buy organic food, but sometimes the first person really just does not care that much and just needs to make it clear. It's all about priorities.

Organic food is probably a higher priority for me than it is for a lot of people. That doesn't mean I judge them. There are a lot of things that are a higher/lower priority for me than they are for other people. Dressing up nicely, having my hair done, having just the right make-up, keeping a really nice house -- all low priorities for me, although I would like to work on the housekeeping. I really don't care much how I look and am usually in jeans and a sweatshirt or t-shirt. Going to church, being involved in lots of civic groups/clubs -- low priorities. Eating organic foods, supporting local farmers and local businesses, moving toward more energy sustainability by running our vehices on biodiesel -- high priorities. Do you judge me for these things?

I think we just need to be clearer about where things lie in our value system/priorities and then it becomes clearer. Obviously, obviously, obviously almost everybody's top priorites are keeping their families fed (on whatever) and clothed and housed, but beyond that it starts to get greyer and more individual.

I don't know, I guess I'll post this thing before I lose my nerve. I certainly am not JUDGING anybody on their food choices, but if anybody wants some tips on making organic more affordable or is interested in why organic foods are important to me and other people I would be happy to dig up some more links.

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#123 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 01:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
Comparatively, almost EVERY ingredient in cheetos IS unhealthy. Not just unhealthy, but dangerous.
y'know, they actually make "Natural" Cheetos now with organic corn meal. I bought some for my kids in Target the other day when they were whining for a snack : .

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#124 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 01:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Yinsum View Post
See this is my question from the beginning? Why does someone have a right to question others choices? <snip> What I hope is that we acknowledge that what we do is best for our families. Without having to justify a choice. To me elitism suggests people owe an explaination for making a different choice.
You know, the cultures that perform FGM on their daughters, think they're doing what's best for their families.

The Branch Davidians likely thought they were doing what was best for their families.

Lots of parents who use the Ferber method, think it's the best thing for their families.

I think that accepting whatever people choose to do, without question, is not conducive to progress. It allows people to remain ignorant of better methods/choices.

Of course, whenever you point a finger, three point back at you. It's entirely possible that someone who mutilates their daughter's genitals could teach me something about another aspect of life. We all learn from each other.
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#125 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 03:03 PM
 
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I think it's really interesting that a thread started to talk about feeling judged for not buying organic should have so many responses of people being really judegmental about people who do buy organic food :

The method of growing and producing foods we call "organic" is nothing new. This is the way people have farmed for almost all of human history. Convenience foods and the use of petrochemicals in farming is new. So please don't assume that people who seek out organic foods are just being trendy. If your image of someone who buys organic foods is some polished suburbanite stepping out of an suv to buy processed foods at a mega chain, you are being prejudiced. I am sure I am not the only member of this board who was eating organic rice and natural peanut butter 25 years ago, when it was decidedly not cool at all!

There is absolutely no question, when comparing organic whole foods and conventionally produced whole foods, that organics are a better choice - there is debate on the nutrition aspect but there is no debate on how detrimental petrochemical fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides are to all living organisms. So, just because some of us are aware of this does not make us snobs. It is not elitest to want your family and your world to be healthy.

As far as I am aware, those of us who practice "alternative" lifestyles do not have any higher a rate of emotional distress, low self esteem, or tha habit of transference than any other subsector of the population (and really, why would "we" ) So you feeling inferior is not a result of me feeling inferior and choosing to go do something that will make you feel bad and thus make me feel good.

Yes, many of us have better access to organic foods than others, whether it be because of location, income, other lifestyles particulars, or any combination of the above. Should I not use my purchasing power to support an industry I think is morally, ethically, and environmentally sound because others cannot?

The last thing that goes through my mind when I shop at my co -op and farmers market is "Boy do I feel superior". It is something more along the lines of "Boy, do I feel very, very fortunate that I know what healthy food is and I have the ability to get it. I wish more people had the ability to make choices the way I can."

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#126 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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I know, I just think that it is assumed that eveyone could afford all organic if they'd just budget their money better.
Hmmm, partly true. I think more people could afford more organic if they budgeted differently. While I don't judge individuals, I'm happy to judge America as a whole. When I think about how much money gets spent at Starbucks every day, or about how much money gets spent on Coca-cola, for example, it drives me nuts. I see many people at the grocery store with carts full of premium crap: Coke, Cottonelle, Lucky Charms, Huggies, Hamburger Helper... are these the people who "can't" afford organics? (I use quotes because I absolutely recognize that there are people who cannot afford organic - but these are not the people I'm talking about now.) Or is "I can't afford it" just a common excuse for these people? My SIL who's DH earns well into six figures "can't" afford organic. But they go to restaurants all the time, have an generous-sized house, buy premium wines, you get my point.

I agree that a lot of this is about education. Many people don't know how dire the situation is.

But sometimes its about selfishness. While I believe that most people are basically good, I know that we all are fighting our own spiritual battles. Selfishness is a huge spiritual battle for many people, and it's always sad to see someone losing. Some people choose fancy clothes, etc., over organics, because they WANT fancy clothes, and that's all there is to it for them.

It's downright frustrating and saddening to see the future of our world in so much trouble because people are so overwhelmed by the onslaught of materialism and commercialism that they can't even see that there is a spiritual battle going on, and that they're losing.

I'll admit, right here, that my spiritual battle is lack of humility. I'm working on it, but obviously I haven't gotten that far!


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Originally Posted by lisalou View Post
I think the term organic has gotten diluted every since it became an FDA certification process. Any processed food labeled organic is a waste of money. To me that's the biggest gimmick of marketing. Not that you shouldn't ever, ever eat processed food but there are so many loopholes when it comes to processed food that the term organic doesn't usually mean all that much. ... I think someone early in thread hit it on the nail when they said you really have to change your whole way of thinking about food to make the commitment to local and/or organic. Organic produce flown into Vermont in the middle of January or July for that matter from South America to me defeats the whole purpose of going organic. How can it be sustainable practices to be wasting all that jet fuel? I try to plan meals seasonally and think of cooking more than one meal at a time.

Also, Americans spend less on food in relation to income than any other Western country. I value good food it's worth it to me to make room in my budget and sacrifice other things to make sure my family is eating right. I know not everyone can do that. All I ask is that everyone try to feed their families the best they can and be mindful of what you're eating.

There is food elitism but that goes into Organic being a sexy marketing term and restaurants that are places to see and be seen rather than actually eating. I never really associate that with MDC to be honest.
Many good points made. However, I would say that many organic non-local options aren't shipped from farther than non-organics. Organic bananas vs. conventional bananas, organic avos vs. conventional avos... all would have to be pretty far from me! I unfortunately buy a lot of food that is not local, especially in winter, because I like providing my family with variety.

Omnivore's Dilemma goes into a great conversation about the mainstreaming of organics, the dilution of the definition of organic, the industrialization of organic, etc. I can't reiterate everything Michael Pollan says, so I'll just say read it for yourself!

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Originally Posted by AmyB View Post
Exactly. So you see how elitist it is for American consumers to demand a variety of cheaply priced, out-of-season oil-dependent foods year round. ... When you buy a thing like food you are never just buying the THING. You are also buying the environmental, social and personal side effects. In the case of the cheap industrial food that makes up the typical American diet people are specifically buying environmental degradation, foreign oil dependence and associated wars, and diabetes.

I don't think it's elitist to wish everyone had a clean environment, peace, and good health. I understand that if people are starving they will eat anything, but as a society Americans are generally rich. We don't have to eat so destructively. We seem to do it mainly because circumstances have made the most destructive calories the cheapest to buy. ... So perhaps it is elitist to insist on an organic label on all foods, but in general social justice calls for far, far greater awareness of what we are eating and how it got on our tables.
I think it's very possible to be an advocate, without being elitist or judgmental. It's about spreading education, and inspiring people to protect our earth and our health.

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Originally Posted by beka1977 View Post
I am always shocked by the prices at Whole Foods. ... That said, sometimes we go to Whole Foods just for an adventure, and the prices are WAY higher than the same product at the grocery store. Sometimes I feel like it is similar to shopping at Tiffany's - you are paying a premium for the label of WF. Around here we lovingly call it "Whole Paycheck."
I think everyone here on MDC buys as much organic as they can afford, or chooses to not buy organic for conscientious reasons (like choosing local over organic). What saddens me is that there are so many people who spend so much on crap, who just don't know the health effects of their food choices.

Sorry for the novel.

Aven
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#127 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You know, the cultures that perform FGM on their daughters, think they're doing what's best for their families.

The Branch Davidians likely thought they were doing what was best for their families.

Lots of parents who use the Ferber method, think it's the best thing for their families.

I think that accepting whatever people choose to do, without question, is not conducive to progress. It allows people to remain ignorant of better methods/choices.

Of course, whenever you point a finger, three point back at you. It's entirely possible that someone who mutilates their daughter's genitals could teach me something about another aspect of life. We all learn from each other.
Ok I hoping that your analogy was simply to drive home a point and that your are not equating some extreme practices with food choices that arent from the local farms, organic or along that vain.
And Amen to figure pointing... thats along the lines of what I have been saying. In chosing to judge we should know we are equally open to the judgement of others. How does that make anyone better?
I like to believe many of us a working towards a higher good whether we know it or not. The thread started because I felt a mom was judged about her food choices and no one knew why she was buying what she was buying. But beyond that she may make poor food choices but perhaps she is raising some of the most loving kind hearted children to behold. She too could be working towards a higher good.
I can't speak for others. I believe its wonderful that there is such a great movement to bring our foods back to their intended wholeness. How can you knock that? I am however turned off by the smugness and preachiness. I want to learn and there is a way to teach.
Thank you to those who have sent informative links.
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#128 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 03:48 PM
 
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Many good points made. However, I would say that many organic non-local options aren't shipped from farther than non-organics. Organic bananas vs. conventional bananas, organic avos vs. conventional avos... all would have to be pretty far from me! I unfortunately buy a lot of food that is not local, especially in winter, because I like providing my family with variety.
I agree. I've read OD. That's why I go local organic, then local non-organic, then non-local organic and then and only then non-local non organic.

My goal has been to increase consumption of local food not to only consume local food. Mainly b/c I can't live without coffee.

I just want people to mindful of where things come from and how they're made or grown. It's like yesterday I heard someone talking about free trade and how fair trade will never go through b/c people want cheap stuff. I can't help but think maybe we should be talking more about the real costs of that cheap stuff.
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#129 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 05:12 PM
 
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I agree. I've read OD. That's why I go local organic, then local non-organic, then non-local organic and then and only then non-local non organic.

My goal has been to increase consumption of local food not to only consume local food. Mainly b/c I can't live without coffee.

I just want people to mindful of where things come from and how they're made or grown. It's like yesterday I heard someone talking about free trade and how fair trade will never go through b/c people want cheap stuff. I can't help but think maybe we should be talking more about the real costs of that cheap stuff.
DH always says, "Wal-Mart I can't afford their cheap prices."
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#130 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 05:24 PM
 
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It's more about priority, I think.
Our main priority is that are children are fed, hence why we personally can't afford all organic food.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#131 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 06:03 PM
 
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I have run into this problem. it is hard to address too and hard to not take offense.

you know nobody is perfect, but some people certainly take on an elitist attitude. it really turns me OFF in so many ways. and now it's so trendy to act this way? :Puke

since DH died "organic" is not my priority anymore. if I even EAT that's an accomplishment some days! we are slowly getting back on track, but I have learned how petty people are over food.

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#132 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 06:34 PM
 
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I made a thread a while back about frugality vs. organic. Since then I have started eating more healthy and whatnot. My opinion is that organic or all natural isn't necessarily as expensive as some think. Don't get me wrong, in the beginning I would see the prices at the grocery store and want to scream because I wanted it and couldn't afford it. I've found that going to a natural store that sells bulk or joining a bulk buying club can really help out. Example, here is where I got the ingredients for our dinner last night and a summary of cost:

1. A whole chicken bought directly from a farmer, it was free range and grassfed. $3/lb. I got a 2lb chicken - so $6.

2. I bought a 2 loaves of whole wheat bread from BJs (like costco or sams club) for $2.50. So $1.25 per loaf. (you could make this even cheaper by making your own bread)

3. A 'bunch' (2) of organic broccoli for approx. $2.

4. Mushrooms $1.50

5. Fresh grated Parmesan cheese $6 total. I bought it in a chunk and grated at home.

So *if* I had made a meal using ALL of that it would have cost $18. However, I only used 2 slices of bread (for breadcrumbs), maybe 2-3tbls. of parm. cheese, 1/4 of all that broccoli, half of the mushrooms, and just the breasts of the chicken. I would approximate the cost of the meal at about $2.50-$3.50. And what was I able to make for *all natural* (the only non organic ingredient was the bread which was still didn't have HFCS or sugars in it)$3?

Here was the recipe I wrote up:
Ingredients:
-Olive oil
-Mushrooms
-Broccoli
-Breadcrumbs
-Chicken breast
-Parmesan cheese.

Directions:
-Preheat oven to 425.
-Pound chicken breasts until flat.
-Place breadcrumbs in a bowl.
-Roll chicken in breadcrumbs (I also added Flax to the crumbs, and they were Italian breadcrumbs.)
-In a pan put a little olive oil. Put in mushrooms, cook for a little bit and then add broccoli. Cook until broccoli is tender yet crisp.
-Put mixture from pan in a bowl and add Parm. cheese.
-Put mixture in center of flattened chicken breast and roll, place each piece of chicken on a greased baking sheet with the open seam down.
-Sprinkle a little Parm. cheese on the tops.
-Bake chicken until outside starts to brown, then broil an additional two minutes



It made a dinner meal for me and my fiancee, and I still had a piece left over today for my lunch. So 2-3 meals for $3.
It's all about really digging deep and finding the good prices/deals and working with what you have to work with.
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#133 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you Pyratekk. See there is a loving way to teach.
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#134 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 06:46 PM
 
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Thank you Pyratekk. See there is a loving way to teach.
No problem! It's just that the food ended up tasty so I had to find a way to sneak in my recipe somewhere! Just kidding (^_^). I think that the common misconception is that organics are always expensive. First of all, it really has more to do with the region you live in. Places like California have cheaper organics than, let's say, New York. This has to do with space to grow things.

Also, if you are looking for organic veggies, talk to other women you know in your area or call someone and see if somewhere near you there is a community garden. Basically everyone contributes and then once things grow they divide the veggies and whatnot amongst the group.

Oh, and for *most* things it will be cheaper to get them at an actual natural foodstore rather than your regular grocer - I learned this the hard way.

You can also go here:
http://www.organickitchen.com/
And use the links to find local farmers, Vineyards, and some online marketplaces.
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#135 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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This is a difficult subject for me and my family. We are low income. We used to be very high income, then no income, and now "low income". I am lucky in so many ways. First, I know how to cook. I do not mean that I can make a wicked hot dish. I mean that I know how to take a few cups of wheat berries and make them into bread. I did not learn this overnight. It took years of experimenting to get here. So now, even though we are a dual-working family, I can make most of our meals from whole ingredients. I can buy organically (I would say about 90%) for much less than the average family can. And that is living in a very rural and cut-off area, People are talking 100+ miles to the nearest WFs. I would say we are 5 hours away and that is only if there is a WF in Green Bay. Obviously not practical. I ahve never even been in one. I have had to get friendly with our local farmers. They are not certified but are "organic" in my book. We barter for a CSA share that keeps us rolling in veggies and fruits for the summer with lots leftover to can soups. We have a great co-op. They do sell Pirate's Booty which I have never even tried, but they luckily devote more than 50% of thier space to whole foods. There is nothing "glamorous" about walking around in St. Vinnie's yoga pants with my curly-topped (unpoo-ed) kid with a reused mason jar of bulk pinto beans....... Organic gets expensive when processing comes into the equation. I do not even go down those aisles. I cannot afford to. Dd does not even know about crackers and cookies. I have not figured out how to make them and cannot afford to buy them. But I can feed my family of 3 (and 2 cats) with frequent dinner and overnight guests on 90% organic for less than $300/month.

So sometimes I feel like an elitist because family and friends think we are rolling in it to buy this stuff. Sometimes I feel poor when I am trying to make an entire meal out of black-eyed peas and rice. And sometimes I feel irked when I get the "it must be nice......." line when I know full well we are living on MUCH less income than the person who is saying it. But then I try to remind myself that I could not just step off my porch 10 years ago and feed my fanily on organics for as little as I do now. It took learning A LOT about cooking from scratch (which takes TIME), learning how to organize my culinary pursuits, making friends and learning how to barter with farmers, accumulating and putting to use canning and freezing supplies, and teaching my family that a pile of cut-up veggies from a farm down the road with some homemade dip is YUMMIER than Cheetos. Not easy. It takes time.

So. I do not know the answer to the bigger question here. We are all on a journey. Some started before others. Some live in areas that make it easier. Some have more disposable income and/or time on thier hands. Some have more know-how (which I almost think is the biggest benefit). Everyone feels defensive because we are not just talking about your own personal health and budget. Everyone's eating choices effects everyone else one way or another. So it is personal. As much as big business does not want us to know that........
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#136 of 171 Old 01-09-2007, 11:54 PM
 
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Our main priority is that are children are fed, hence why we personally can't afford all organic food.
Now that's unfair, I think I quantified my statement. I said that eating organic was a priority for us, so we sacrificed other things that we might have instead in favour of buying organic. All I intended with my post was an anecdotal example of people who you would THINK couldn't afford organics based on income, but do, and explained how it can be done.
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#137 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 12:30 AM
 
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Sorry, I haven't read this thread from the beginning, though I will when I have time. I think this is a good topic, which is obvious from the number of posts.

I understand the perception of elitism because I was there. I grew up poor, and to me, organic was some sort of artsy, fartsy specialized way of throwing money away. I'm a single mom, living off the bones my ex throws me while I finish my dissertation, so I'm back to being poor again. But this time, I try to buy organic, pasture-fed, almost exclusively. The reason I think people who eat organically seem to "judge" people who don't is because there really is good reason to eat organically. There is a difference between "judging" and "using one's judgement". I want to appeal to the latter when I recommend eating organically. The rest, imo, is perception. I agree with a pp who said that just by eating differently, we set ourselves apart, and therefore perceived as "elitist".

I also just read Fast Food Nation so I am quite aware of the totally gross, disgusting, deadly state of the way conventional meat products are produced. If it is elitist to want to stay healthy and even alive, then I'm elitist. The author describes the horrific ways some kids die from having eaten meat that is mishandled, of which ground beef is almost 100% likely to contain cow s**t. There are more microbes (including e-coli) from s**t in the average household's kitchen sink than in their toilets because of contanimated meat. So you are better off drinking water from someone's toilet than drinking water that's touched their kitchen sink. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but one of my top priorities in life is to ensure my child eats in a way that avoids the pitfalls of the American way of producing food. It is one vast experiment by corporations trying to make a fast buck. They will literally do anything, including lobbying to literally keep s**t in meat, so that they will save a single penny on a pound of meat.

In terms of produce, much less pesticides, there is the problem of genetic modification. It produces frankensteinian food that is often not even recognized as food by animals and bugs. I'm not waiting for scientists to prove in about 50 years that genetically modified foods causes all sorts of complications. The link between health problems and pesiticides are only just coming to light. But would anybody in their right minds do a shot of the stuff? I don't think so. Yet this is exactly what they do in however long a time (like every six months?).

A chiropractor friend of mine told me that the likelihood of getting cancer and other serious diseases are determined by what a child ate prior to when they're 10 years old. How about if we feed our kids organic foods until then?

Having said all this, I make compromises too. I buy whole foods natural chicken (the thighs are 99 cents a lb. on sale) when I can't afford pasture-fed. Pasture fed beef can sometimes be cheaper than the conventional kind. In any case, I don't pay more than $6 a lb. for any cut. I eat it sparingly. I buy bulk. I live simply.

I understand that people may still be unable to afford organic, pasture-fed foods. But I think once you become committed to it, you can find ways to include it in your budget. The important thing is to try. Sometimes I find organic foods that are cheaper than regular foods, but most people bypass them because they're not in the habit of looking for the right foods. But in today's age, we have to make the effort because for the first time in history, food is not what it appears to be. No one had to worry about that before America circa 1950 and thereafter.
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#138 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 09:38 AM
 
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this may have been answered before and if so, i apologize... i have a hard time following long threads. but to decrease your consumption of pesticides/contaminents, isn't it also helpful to eat lower on the food chain? so like if you eat mostly veg*n, even if it's not organic, you are doing significantly better than if you ate meat?

i think pretty much everybody on mdc does the best they can with what they have. if those of you who buy organic could give the rest of us tips on how to do it on a budget, i think that advice would be very welcome. i mean, i know it is possible. my best friend is not 'employed" in the traditional sense... actually she works on organic farms when it is growing season, but she feeds herself solely organically for EXTREMELY cheap. obviously growing her own contributes to that , but most of us could do some gardening, right? i swear i will try this spring. my il's next door grow an incredible amount of food organically and freeze it to use all year. they are my heroes, lol. and my son is a little farmer in training. one year we grew green beans by the side of our house and the yield was incredible!! now, a quick hijack.... if you grow your own, do the seeds have to be "organic" or can you just buy any old seeds at kmart or whatever?

back to your debate!!
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#139 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 09:42 AM
 
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I also just read Fast Food Nation so I am quite aware of the totally gross, disgusting, deadly state of the way conventional meat products are produced. If it is elitist to want to stay healthy and even alive, then I'm elitist. The author describes the horrific ways some kids die from having eaten meat that is mishandled, of which ground beef is almost 100% likely to contain cow s**t. There are more microbes (including e-coli) from s**t in the average household's kitchen sink than in their toilets because of contanimated meat. So you are better off drinking water from someone's toilet than drinking water that's touched their kitchen sink. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but one of my top priorities in life is to ensure my child eats in a way that avoids the pitfalls of the American way of producing food. It is one vast experiment by corporations trying to make a fast buck. They will literally do anything, including lobbying to literally keep s**t in meat, so that they will save a single penny on a pound of meat.
omg.... :Puke !!!
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#140 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 01:05 PM
 
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I think when people say "I can't afford X" that they really mean "It's not a priority for me to buy X" or "X is not important enough for me to spend money on".

I read a study recently about dental care, and it turned out that young males with relatively high incomes were the most likely to say they couldn't afford to visit the dentist. Really what they meant was that visiting the dentist wasn't a priority for them - they didn't see it as important, or worth the money. So therefore they "couldn't afford it".

It makes sense. If you asked me right now to spend $10,000 renovating our house, I'd say we couldn't afford it. But if something happened to me, DH or one of my DDs and we had to pay $10,000 in hospital bills, I'd find a way.

A writer/runner/thinker/wife with two daughters (11/02 and 8/05), one dog, three cats, seven fish, and a partridge in a pear tree... in Vermont.
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#141 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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omg.... :Puke !!!
I hear you! I'm glad I dont even LIKE beef!
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#142 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 02:23 PM
 
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Now that's unfair, I think I quantified my statement. I said that eating organic was a priority for us, so we sacrificed other things that we might have instead in favour of buying organic. All I intended with my post was an anecdotal example of people who you would THINK couldn't afford organics based on income, but do, and explained how it can be done.

I was not trying to be unfair but just pointing out that for some of us we don't really have anything left to sacrifice so we can buy more organic foods. I think I'm a little defensive because I know how important organic foods are I prefer to buy them (they actually are high on my piority list) but finacially it's just not possible for us to buy mostly/all oragnic foods. It sucks not having the income to simply feed your family the way you feel is best.
I am enjoying reading how other low-income families are making it work though!!
Also it's hard for me to nak and type so my post are short. I really didn't mean what I wrote to be as harsh as it seems.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#143 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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omg.... !!!
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I hear you! I'm glad I dont even LIKE beef!
That's not even the half of it! But there was a post in the TF forum about how Sally Fallon said that if push came to shove, conventional beef and lamb were better to buy than conventional pork and chicken. I don't know the exact reason, but I shudder at the thought.

But I just wanted to say that the economic problem is much larger than what one's husband makes. Schlosser is good about pointing out that wage is just not keeping up with the cost of living. That is also one of the reprecussions of the success of fast food restaurants and corporations. People are expected to live on much less than just a few generations ago. They drive down the price of food by driving down wages, then we're stuck unable to afford decent, unaltered food. I think a part of this is to stop supporting companies that contribute to the problem. Hopefully the new movie about fast food nation will open some eyes. Oddly though, people have a way of shrugging and moving on. I can hear my brother saying, "Channel 4 news said that s**t is okay in food as long as we cook it at the right temperature."
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#144 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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I can hear my brother saying, "Channel 4 news said that s**t is okay in food as long as we cook it at the right temperature."
:

And you are right that wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. I think our first mistake was ever making nourishing our bodies about money.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#145 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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That's not even the half of it! But there was a post in the TF forum about how Sally Fallon said that if push came to shove, conventional beef and lamb were better to buy than conventional pork and chicken. I don't know the exact reason, but I shudder at the thought.

It's because the former get more sunlight/fresh air than the latter who never see the outdoors at all.
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#146 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 04:30 PM
 
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And you are right that wages are not keeping up with the cost of living. I think our first mistake was ever making nourishing our bodies about money.
Amen to this!!!

The mass food industry doesn't give a darn about the "food" they are marketing to consumers. When I saw the "Future of Food" that was really eye-opening. Good food should be available to people despite their social status- but instead the junk is marketed as more affordable. It seems like we have to defend ourselves from the onslaught of mess that is out there, which (with fast food joints on every corner) a hard thing to do.
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#147 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 04:42 PM
 
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This information was also in the activism forum, but I thought is was interesting info to share here:


http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia...paign_KEY=6204

sorry if a little off topic, but I thought this was important to share, Thanks.
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#148 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 06:20 PM
 
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This information was also in the activism forum, but I thought is was interesting info to share here:


http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia...paign_KEY=6204

sorry if a little off topic, but I thought this was important to share, Thanks.
WOW!! This is sickening! You are right about that.
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#149 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 06:48 PM
 
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One has to shift one's mindset. Organic is not more expensive... it is the cost of food. Eat what is in season, stock up when it's on sale, utilize your food dehydrator and your freezer.

We eat primarily organic... but mainly because my kids are on Feingold. We don't eat fast food. My kids have also been healthier this year than they were before. We've had no Doctor's appointments for colds or other illnesses, which means I am saving money there. I spend more on food, of course, but not that much more.


I haven`t read any further than this post, but wanted to make a comment about this:

1: I am Norwegian, living in Norway. And here, organic is WAAAY more expensive. Way more. 2 lbs of unorganic apples cost as much as 3 or 4 organic apples. Organic chese is 50% more expensive. Organic meat is sometimes twive the price, other times "just" 50% more expensive.

There is no way I would be able to but all (or even most) organic food. It`s just not an option.

2: If I was to eat only what was in season here in Norway, I wouldn`t eat much veggies or fruit at all during the winterhalf of the year. This is Norway. Cold and not suitable for most fruits even during summer. So if I was to eat only organic AND only in season, there wouldn`t be much of anything green in my diet.

Just wanted to show that what is truth to you (generic you) isn`t always everybode elses truht.

Oooh, and BTW: All medicalstuff is free of charge for all children in Norway. And adults only pay a part of the bill. Operations and hospitalstays are free for all. (Except medicine. We pay a small sum of our medicine. But not much.)
So I wouldn`t be able to save any money from that, either. But my son is more or less never sick anyway (Knock on wood), even though we eat mostly nonorganic.

*Single, attached Norwegian mama to my LoveBug, 2001*
 
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#150 of 171 Old 01-10-2007, 06:56 PM
 
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I think BurgundyElephant's point was more that the actual price that most Westerners pay for their food -- conventional grocery store food -- is artificially low, thanks to market pressure, subsidies, cheap imports, etc.

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