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Old 01-10-2007, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara View Post

Oooh, and BTW: All medicalstuff is free of charge for all children in Norway. And adults only pay a part of the bill. Operations and hospitalstays are free for all. (Except medicine. We pay a small sum of our medicine. But not much.)
So I wouldn`t be able to save any money from that, either. But my son is more or less never sick anyway (Knock on wood), even though we eat mostly nonorganic.

That’s because you live in a civilized country.
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Old 01-10-2007, 08:54 PM
 
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I think BurgundyElephant's point was more that the actual price that most Westerners pay for their food -- conventional grocery store food -- is artificially low, thanks to market pressure, subsidies, cheap imports, etc.
Oh, ok.. Sometimes my understanding of the (english) written word somewhat sucks.

But, even though Norwegian government is heavy into subsidies, food (all food, also conventional,) is a lot more expensive than most other places. Wich ofcourse makes our organic food even more expensive,too.

And I have interpreted (majorly wrong spelling, I`m sure. ) several posts in this thread to say that organic wouldbe affordable to most? people if they sacrified other non-essentials. Not in my country, with my income. I don`t buy non-essentials. I can`t afford it.

I buy organic when I can. What I can afford.

My hope is that one day organic food will be affordable for "normal people" like me. But as long as only 1-2% or Norwegian farmers are organic, and most grocerystores have less than 10 organic items, I have to settle for non.organic for the most part.

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Old 01-11-2007, 01:04 AM
 
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See this is my question from the beginning? Why does someone have a right to question others choices? Not knocking you, but are you totally correct in how you live? Do you treat all people equitably? Is your heart completely without malice? Do you walk everywhere instead of drive? Is your house a total "green home"? Are you off the grid? Did you bf or did you not?
(These questions are directed at you, simply rhetorical)

People my point is there is a snobbery that suggests my choices are right and if you are not making my choice its because you dont care, you dont plan, you arent using your money to the best of your ability. Who passes out the halo's that say your way is the best way?

What I hope is that we acknowledge that what we do is best for our families. Without having to justify a choice. To me elitism suggests people owe an explaination for making a different choice.
If a person goes to McDonald's to pick up breakfast before work each mother, and then whines to me that she can't afford organic, that is hypocrisy. I'm not asking her the questions, she's offering me conflicting information. I'm not judging her as a bad person, but simply noticing that there is not truth to what she is telling herself and me. She is one example.

I have two other office mates who have different "excuses." I do not solicit their excuses, but they know that I shop at the natural foods co-op during my lunch hour, and they offer reasons why they do not. If this one co-worker said, "I like McDonalds. I'd rather spend my money there than on organic." Then, she would not be hypocritical.
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:01 PM
 
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Crunchy Tamara--

I don't think from your discription that the premium from organics is that much higher than a lot of the U.S. I bought milk yesterday for $6.19 a gallon; the conventional was $1.88. What probabily is different is the percentage of income people spend on food. Food still is not a very high portion of middle and upper income Americans.

Yooper--FYI there is no FW is Green Bay, just Madision and Milwaukee. The natural section at Woodman's might be worth checking out if your ever in town.
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mnnice View Post
Crunchy Tamara--

I don't think from your discription that the premium from organics is that much higher than a lot of the U.S. I bought milk yesterday for $6.19 a gallon; the conventional was $1.88. What probabily is different is the percentage of income people spend on food. Food still is not a very high portion of middle and upper income Americans.

Yooper--FYI there is no FW is Green Bay, just Madision and Milwaukee. The natural section at Woodman's might be worth checking out if your ever in town.
OMG! I have never had to pay more than $1 more for organic milk than regular milk! That's just awful. I take it there isn't a lot of competition from a lot of stores offering organic produce there.

 
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Old 01-11-2007, 12:27 PM
 
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OMG! I have never had to pay more than $1 more for organic milk than regular milk! That's just awful. I take it there isn't a lot of competition from a lot of stores offering organic produce there.
I'm not exactly sure why the big difference. Nearly all the regular groceries carry organic milk and I can also by very local organic not ultrapastuerized milk in glass (if I'm ambitious enough to make a special trip). I don't know if I'd consider this area the hotbed of the organic universe or anything, but I think there are plenty of choices. We are pretty much near/at the epicenter of the dairy industry.
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Old 01-11-2007, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara View Post
1: I am Norwegian, living in Norway. And here, organic is WAAAY more expensive. Way more. 2 lbs of unorganic apples cost as much as 3 or 4 organic apples. Organic chese is 50% more expensive. Organic meat is sometimes twive the price, other times "just" 50% more expensive.
European countries have higher standards of safety regarding meat, and require labeling of genetically modified foods. I'm assuming that's true of Norway. If that was the case, I'd feel better about buying conventional foods. But here, even if I could get past the pesticides issue (and some conventional veggies and fruits have smaller amounts than others), there is still the issue of gmo. So my point is that I think you're doing okay.

ETA: In fact, one of the downfalls of ranchers in America is that the way they produce beef tailored to American companies makes the beef unsellable in Europe (because beef feed contains chicken s**t and other animal products), as well as a lot of other gross stuff. blech.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mnnice View Post

Yooper--FYI there is no FW is Green Bay, just Madision and Milwaukee. The natural section at Woodman's might be worth checking out if your ever in town.
I stand corrected then The nearest WF is 6 hours away But I can still get organics on a limited budget between out co-op, member run natural foods buying club, and local farms. It did take a few years to figure it all out to get where I am now though......

For people who live in areas where organics are hard to get.... Anyone can start a buying club. I save a great deal of money, even over conventional, by buying 25 pound bags of organic wheat berries, steel cut oats, beans, etc..... I know storage space is a problem for lots of people. But if you have storage, this is a good way to go. I use lined Subway pickle buckets with tops. They were free and I can store my stuff out in the garage or basement without worrying about animals. The lining is important though.....the pickle smell NEVER goes away. I also barter for a double share of CSA and can away one whole share. We eat something from the summer bounty almost every day in the winter and my winter grocery bill is very low since we live on the summer harvest and bulk whole grains/beans. Dh calls it mystery soup. I am very bad about labelling the jars and each week I would make some sort of veggie/grain/bean soup depending on what I have that week. We never know until we start to eat it what it is exactly......
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:03 PM
 
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People my point is there is a snobbery that suggests my choices are right and if you are not making my choice its because you dont care, you dont plan, you arent using your money to the best of your ability. Who passes out the halo's that say your way is the best way?

I believe people have to make the best choices possible. I don't look down on anyone for the choices they make. At the same time, my inner monologue agrees and disagrees with certain choices. If we're on this board, I'm certain we ALL make judgments of this kind. I'm sure even you would look at a mom who feeds her kids all junk food with no effort to include fruits and veggies as bad choices. And you would have good reason. There are good reasons to go organic. If you still choose not to buy organic or can't, that's fine, but imo, organic is the right choice, and should be a goal even if it's not what we can afford all the time.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mnnice View Post
I'm not exactly sure why the big difference. Nearly all the regular groceries carry organic milk and I can also by very local organic not ultrapastuerized milk in glass (if I'm ambitious enough to make a special trip). I don't know if I'd consider this area the hotbed of the organic universe or anything, but I think there are plenty of choices. We are pretty much near/at the epicenter of the dairy industry.
I wonder what does make that much difference. I'm in MA, so it seems there would be a longer way for organic milk and such to make it here. Isn't that weird. Totally OT, but wouldn't that be an interesting study.

 
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Old 01-11-2007, 06:56 PM
 
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Crunchy Tamara--

I don't think from your discription that the premium from organics is that much higher than a lot of the U.S. I bought milk yesterday for $6.19 a gallon; the conventional was $1.88. What probabily is different is the percentage of income people spend on food. Food still is not a very high portion of middle and upper income Americans.
Yeah, that might be true.

But $1.88 for å GALLON of regular milk?? Here I would have to pay $5 for a gallon regular milk. Not that I would ever buy it! Organic milk is actually not much more expensive than regular milk, for some reason. It would be something like $1 extra for a gallon. But other than that, organic is usually twice the price of regular food.

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Old 01-11-2007, 06:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mommay View Post
European countries have higher standards of safety regarding meat, and require labeling of genetically modified foods. I'm assuming that's true of Norway. If that was the case, I'd feel better about buying conventional foods. But here, even if I could get past the pesticides issue (and some conventional veggies and fruits have smaller amounts than others), there is still the issue of gmo. So my point is that I think you're doing okay.

ETA: In fact, one of the downfalls of ranchers in America is that the way they produce beef tailored to American companies makes the beef unsellable in Europe (because beef feed contains chicken s**t and other animal products), as well as a lot of other gross stuff. blech.


Genetically modified food isn`t allowed to sell in Norway at all, avtually. But that will change soon, I`m afraid of. (The European Union will make sure of that. )

Most Norwegian stores sells very little foreign meat. I have never bought any, actually.

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Old 01-12-2007, 06:14 PM
 
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This thread made me curious about what people mean when they say that organic food is affordable or not, so I posted a poll in Frugality and Finances. I'd love to see more responses from people in this thread who feel organic is affordable, or feel that it isn't.

Poll: What percent of your budget is spent on groceries?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=593867
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Please don't flame me for restarting this thread, but i wanted to share a couple things with those who wanted to help me. First thank you for telling me about Trader Joes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I went there to day and practically did the happy dance all throughout the store. Yes it really makes a big difference compared to Whole Foods. Only one draw back its exactly 37miles door to door thats 74 miles round trip. So dh and I loaded up. I cant afford gas wise or 4 years seated in car that long... too often. Nonetheless I am grateful for having found it.
Also I have found a local dairy farm to purchase milk from. Thank you much!!!!
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:49 AM
 
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Organic stuff isn't really "Trendy" here, so there isn't a lot of it to be found. So, I read labels and get what is best. I have eliminated trans fats from our diet, and am working on weeding out all the HFCS now.

Once we are back in the states and have the option to shop around, it might be an option, but german markets haven't really given in to the organic craze, so we do our best with the farmers markets and a combination of the bakeries here, the different markets like the fish market, and the commissary for stuff we want from home like cereal.

I think the food here has a lot less preservatives anyhow, and is overall more healthy.
also sent as a PM as I am not sure if the person I have quoted is going to read the message.
Where on earth are you living in Germany??? There are several organic super market chains, with large stores and I have never ever had a problem to get organic food in Germany. In fact, we almost solely eat organic at our house and I have been eating that way since I was born 24 years ago.

Have a look here to find an organic store near you:
www.alnatura.de
www.basic-bio.de
www.biomarkt.de
www.oekonova.de/23biob.htm

Apart from that you will find organic foods in large supermarkets like Rewe, Tengelmann, even discounters like Aldi, Lidl, Plus, Norma and the like sell organic goods. Even small towns have organic stores (mind you, they are small but you get what you need!), so-called 'Reformhaus' stores sell organic food (www.neuform.de) and you can even get organic produce delivered to your door (www.oekokiste.de). Please also have a look at www.demeter.de, the organisation for bio-dynamic foods and www.bioland.de. And ontop of allof that I can also tell you the URLs of a few online stores that deliver everything to your home with DHL. Now how's that?!

If I can help you any further please feel free to PM me

And to answer the OP - I do not judge people who buy non-organic foods as we can only buy that when DH earns enough. But what I judge (and I admit being guilty of that) are people who solely buy junk food and either are overweight or have children in tow - that's something that I can not understand!
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:07 AM
 
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Old 02-08-2007, 01:11 PM
 
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Organic food is super expensive in my area, but I've noticed that the price is finally coming down. So instead of 3 times as much it's only 2 times. We have a Trader Joe's as well, but it's about 15 - 20 miles from me and I'm seriously time crunched most of the time so it's hard to get there. Costco is carrying a lot of organic so I've been buying it there more. I just wish they'd get a bigger selction of organic frozen veggies.
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Old 02-08-2007, 02:55 PM
 
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What's the advantage to health food store peanut butter? I buy the peanuts only kind at the grocery store - is there a step up from that?
if you can, try to get peanut butter made from VALENCIA peanuts. they tend to be grown in a less humid climate and have a lower incidence of mold.
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Old 02-08-2007, 03:03 PM
 
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For people that truly are on a tight budget and cannot afford organic, I totally understand. If you are in the right climate for it you could always garden your own for even less than conventional would cost.

However, I sell organic produce in my family run store. I do not mark up the produce much at all, hoping to make it more affordable for EVERYONE. A few days ago, two women came in together. They were like "Everything is SO expensive! We can't afford to eat like this!". As they checked out the few items they bought, they were discussing the (at least ) $200 dollars each they had just spent at the clinique counter and how their husbands were going to kill them to see more on their charge card at my store. They spent less than $20 on stuff in my store, and it wasn't organic food, it was Burts bees stuff. Some people just don't prioritize according to what's healthier for them.

p.s. i did tell them that when they ran out of their clinique stuff to come back and i'd hook them up with some chemical free beauty aids that wouldn't break their wallet.
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Old 02-08-2007, 04:53 PM
 
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For people that truly are on a tight budget and cannot afford organic, I totally understand. If you are in the right climate for it you could always garden your own for even less than conventional would cost.

However, I sell organic produce in my family run store. I do not mark up the produce much at all, hoping to make it more affordable for EVERYONE. A few days ago, two women came in together. They were like "Everything is SO expensive! We can't afford to eat like this!". As they checked out the few items they bought, they were discussing the (at least ) $200 dollars each they had just spent at the clinique counter and how their husbands were going to kill them to see more on their charge card at my store. They spent less than $20 on stuff in my store, and it wasn't organic food, it was Burts bees stuff. Some people just don't prioritize according to what's healthier for them.

p.s. i did tell them that when they ran out of their clinique stuff to come back and i'd hook them up with some chemical free beauty aids that wouldn't break their wallet.
Clinique is CRAP anyway!
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Old 02-08-2007, 11:11 PM
 
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I feel very sympathetic towards people that truly cannot afford to pay extra for organic food. I have been very poor in my own life in the past, to the point of having to choose between feeding my family or putting gas in the car to get to work the next day. So to anyone that is trying to make the op or anyone else feel guilty about the choices they make concerning food, wood or plastic toys or any other choice-back off!! It would be completely a surprise to meet anyone on this forum who doesn't have the best interests of their family, their children at heart. What else in the world would keep them coming back here to be subjected to the elitist and judgemental attitudes found within? Having said that, in all sincerity, I would like to explain why I buy organic whenever possible and support local Farmer's market. Besides the fact that the family is much more healthy in every way since we made the switch to organic, by changing our buying habits and supporting the small organic farmers, it is actually bringing the price of organic down for everyone.
30 years ago when organic food just came onto my radar, it was prohibitively expensive and hard to come by. Because of increased demand, the price of organic goods have come way down and availability has increased tremendously. Back then, you never saw organic for sale in the local market, like you do now. You had to go expensive "health food" stores and select from crummy looking, dried out vegetables and stale, inferior goods. Because the demand for organic has grown so much as people have become more aware of the downside of pesticides, gmo's and other modern methods of food production, the selection, quality and affordability of organic has expanded as a result. So part of that attitude you feel coming from an "elitist" is just the desire to support this process. The more people that purchase organic, the cheaper it becomes for everyone. HTH.
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