Which is healthier, Smart Balance or butter? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 110 Old 03-13-2008, 06:03 PM
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I want to state that I did not say a high fat diet was the best way to eat. I can say with certainty that a low/no fat diet is NOT healthy. A body needs fats for proper cell function. Fat plays an important role in a body's equalibrium. And no I am not a nutritionalist, but to me this is common sense. I have also seen what a low/no fat diet does to a body. A good friend of mine has damaged her organs due to a diet with little to no fat. Her body chemistry is screwed up and she is not well. Well was not well, she is turning her eating habbits around and healing her body.

The studies show cultures with a diet high in vegetables. I don't dispute that a diet high in vegetables is a good diet. My diet is high in vegetables. Do they also eat processed foods, where all these non traditional fats sit? A traditional diet for one culture will consist of different, natural fats and animals then another culture. These man made modern fats are not good for a body, and through all the news media's and studies being done today, I believe they are the root cause of all the disseases we are faced with. These cultures still eat animal products. No one said you needed a diet high in animal products to be healthy. IMO a little animal goes a long way. Specific cultures tend to eat locally and their animal consumption is a local animal, ie. fish/lamb/beef. No one questions weather fish is healthy, but it's loaded in fats...natural fats.

Relying on plants for fat intake is dangerous. When people eliminate fat or animal products they substitute them for grains, cereals and sugars. Very few people in our society go the vegetable/fruit route. IMO there is not enough fat in vegetables alone for proper cell function. A low/no fat diet causes drops in good cholesterol, blood pressure, and causes dry skin.

I love Vegan and vegetarian cooking. I love the combination of vegetables and the lightness of the meals. I choose not to base my diet around these meals because I can't thrive on them alone. My body needs meats and fats in moderation. I do not eat meat 3 times a day. I do not eat gobs of butter either.

I trust butter, a nice organic butter, to a modern altered oil.
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#62 of 110 Old 03-13-2008, 06:47 PM
 
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P.S. Indians worship cows, and they drink milk and eat yogurt, so I don't see how cow welfare comes into this. Lots of dairy cows are treated fairly. I know mine is.
It's pretty rare to be able to find "humane" sources of dairy and eggs. Finding ethically treated, pastured chickens for eggs is a bit easier, but dairy presents a problem.

For the most part, in the dairy industry, calves are taken from their mothers within a day of birth so that the milk can be harvested for humans, and I don't see how that can be considered fair treatment. Even if a nursling is allowed to stay with it's mother, cows still have to be milked several times a day, which is usually done by machines, which is not only uncomfortable (how do YOU like being hooked up to a breastpump?), but can often cause injury and infection for the cows.

Most babies born to dairy animals of any kind are not profitable to the dairy industry, and subsequently they are sent to slaughter, or sold to other farmers, who ultimately will probably use them for slaughter. Male calves are most often used for veal or raised for beef slaughter and then killed when they're less than a year old, and most females are raised to be dairy cows like their mothers. Even if the cows were allowed to live, they are now so genetically altered that they are not intended to live past slaughter age. They are bred to grow large very quickly so that they can be slaughtered young.

There are also serious environmental implications, as well as socio-economic factors that come into play.

While I'm sure that there are some dairy farms out there who humanely raise their cows, and let them graze happily in pastures with their babies, where they're hand-milked and the mamas and the babies are allowed to remain together untl the end of their natural lives (or, come to think of it, I find it hard to believe that such places do exist, because they simply wouldn't be profitable), the majority of people don't have access to it.
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#63 of 110 Old 03-13-2008, 10:11 PM
 
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and the babies are allowed to remain together untl the end of their natural lives
Live stock mothers and babies don't live together until the end of their natural lives. Not in man made herds, and rarely even in the wild.

For starters, by the time the calf the is 3-4 months old, the cow will be refusing to let the calf nurse, thus starting the weaning process. And by 6-7 months of age, if the calf is not completely weaned by the cow simply walking away when they try to nurse, they will get kicked, bit and chased. This poses a problem as far as profit is concerned, and most live stock babies are weaned by 4-6 months of age to prevent injury to the calf.

Ethical dairy farmers will leave the calve on the cow for longer then 24 hours, usually 3-4 months. That still gives the farmer 6-7 months of milk, instead of the usual 10.

But it's quite erroneous to impose human CLW ideals of livestock. They just don't live that way.

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#64 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 04:38 AM
 
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I think most traditional diets are relative high in fats, and largely animal fats at that.
Maybe it depends on the culture. I know that the First Nations people where I live -- their traditional diet is VERY high in fat. And they were pretty healthy before the Europeans came around and introduced "European food" like refined carbohydrates.
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#65 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 09:58 AM
 
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When people eliminate fat or animal products they substitute them for grains, cereals and sugars. Very few people in our society go the vegetable/fruit route. IMO there is not enough fat in vegetables alone for proper cell function. A low/no fat diet causes drops in good cholesterol, blood pressure, and causes dry skin.
I really don't want to start anything, just know that while that is your opinion, it is not fact.

Many people who are veg*n do NOT substitute refined flous/sugars/etc for animal products. We (my family, many of my relatives, etc) eat a scratch cooked whole-foods diet with tons of fresh veggies/fruits, lots of nuts, healthful oils (red palm, virgin coconut/etc), whole fresh grains, etc and nothing else. no junk, no processed.

We've never been healthier, especially even when we WERE eating animal products (whether dairy/eggs only or meat as well). Our skin is not dry, our cholesterol is quite enviable (both the total and the good), excellent blood pressure, etc. It is entirely possible to get "enough" fats from a plant based diet, it just takes intelligent planning.
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#66 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 01:24 PM
 
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thanks NatureMama! We have a lovely "Whole Foods/TF(like) Veg*ns" thread going in Veg right now that says loud and clear not all veg*ns are into fake foods.

I am also in the butter camp because it's not fake and I am also backing up lemongrass in that there are plenty of traditional peoples who eat little animal products. Look at a lot of the Mediterranean diets. There are no vegan traditional peoples but there certainly are those who didn't eat as much animal products as a lot of people in the WAP movement are suggesting.

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#67 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 01:47 PM
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Many people who are veg*n do NOT substitute refined flous/sugars/etc for animal products. We (my family, many of my relatives, etc) eat a scratch cooked whole-foods diet with tons of fresh veggies/fruits, lots of nuts, healthful oils (red palm, virgin coconut/etc), whole fresh grains, etc and nothing else. no junk, no processed.

We've never been healthier, especially even when we WERE eating animal products (whether dairy/eggs only or meat as well). Our skin is not dry, our cholesterol is quite enviable (both the total and the good), excellent blood pressure, etc. It is entirely possible to get "enough" fats from a plant based diet, it just takes intelligent planning
I was talking about a diet with no or little fat. Relying soley on plants, vegetable and grains for their natural fats. Such as Lemongrass stated. She did not give a list of fats in her list of fatty vegetables and grains. You have fat in your diet. Yes this is my opinion. About fat. It's also from observation. I am not disputing that there are a large number of vegetarians that eat a fantastic diet. Unfortunately there are a lot who do not. I am speaking about fat intake. If you look at product labels that are low fat you will see that the fat is replaced by sugar or carbohydrates. It's either one or the other for taste, and energy.

Again, I am speaking about fats. Not weather someone can live a healthy lifestyle eating a vegetarian/vegan diet. IMO and from personal experience, you need to be a lot more cautious with the foods you eat when eating vegan/vegetarian. You need to replace the animal fats with a good source vegetable fat. Not the man made crap that is in margarine. Which is what this thread is all about. Margarine or butter.
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#68 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 01:49 PM
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thanks NatureMama! We have a lovely "Whole Foods/TF(like) Veg*ns" thread going in Veg right now that says loud and clear not all veg*ns are into fake foods.
I never stated this. I have a lot of vegan/vegetarian friends who have a fantastic diet, but these are the people I hang around with becuase we have the same views on whole foods nutrition.
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#69 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 02:13 PM
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there are plenty of traditional peoples who eat little animal products. Look at a lot of the Mediterranean diets.
I think there are some widespread misconceptions about traditional Mediterranean diets. I'm not an archaeologist, just an interested lay-person, but my understanding is that people in that region have historically been very reliant on dairy and meat from goats and sheep, and lots of fish and shellfish, in addition to the other things like olives and olive oil, a variety of veggies and fruits, whole grains, etc.

I think every person needs to find their own personal best balance of fats/carbs/protein (or parents find it for their kids until they have the wisdom to do it on their own). I wouldn't dream of telling vegan friends who eat a low-fat, high-carb diet that they're wrong when they say they feel healthier on that diet, and they don't tell me I'm wrong when I say I feel healthier eating a much higher-fat omni diet. A balanced variety of whole, natural foods that are produced in line with one's ethics should be the foundation of health, with individual adjustments based on personal physiology. IMO, nutrition science has failed us. It's largely controlled by politics, money and ego. It appears to me that it has devolved into something designed to validate its own existence (creating "experts" who make a living from appearing very busy, sober and academic, telling us what to eat and what not to eat). So personally, I rely more on history and intuition in deciding what to eat and what to feed my family.

As for the OP, butter is real, margarine is fake. No contest, IMO. Go for the real food every time.

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#70 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 04:38 PM
 
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I was talking about a diet with no or little fat. Relying soley on plants, vegetable and grains for their natural fats. Such as Lemongrass stated. She did not give a list of fats in her list of fatty vegetables and grains. You have fat in your diet. Yes this is my opinion. About fat. It's also from observation. I am not disputing that there are a large number of vegetarians that eat a fantastic diet. Unfortunately there are a lot who do not. I am speaking about fat intake. If you look at product labels that are low fat you will see that the fat is replaced by sugar or carbohydrates. It's either one or the other for taste, and energy.

Again, I am speaking about fats. Not weather someone can live a healthy lifestyle eating a vegetarian/vegan diet. IMO and from personal experience, you need to be a lot more cautious with the foods you eat when eating vegan/vegetarian. You need to replace the animal fats with a good source vegetable fat. Not the man made crap that is in margarine. Which is what this thread is all about. Margarine or butter.

First, my list of the fat content of a few whole plant foods was just a random list to illustrate that practically ALL whole foods contain some fat, even foods you might not think contain fat like kale and oatmeal (source: nutritiondata.com). My point in doing that was to give my opinion that you do not need to eat foods that are 100% fat to get all the fat that is required for health. Furthermore, I believe that since fats found in plants come with other substances like fiber and other nutrients and phytochemicals, that is exactly how they are meant to be consumed and are much healthier than fats that have been processed or extracted from the "package" in which they are naturally found. That is why my answer to the question Margarine or Butter is Neither.
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#71 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 04:49 PM
 
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I don't have much time, but when I see something from the American Diabetes Association (for example), my caution radar goes on! But I did want to address your last sentence, my point was that high fat diets are not inherently detrimental nor are low fat diets, high carb diets etc, if the body is in balance energetically.
I agree with you. My radar goes on regarding the AHA and the ADA and all of that, too. They don't generally advocate the type of diet that I follow, either. I'd say a very low fat whole foods plant based diet is about as mainstream as the high saturated fat whole foods (primarily) animal based WAPF diet.
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#72 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 05:12 PM
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Furthermore, I believe that since fats found in plants come with other substances like fiber and other nutrients and phytochemicals, that is exactly how they are meant to be consumed and are much healthier than fats that have been processed or extracted from the "package" in which they are naturally found
Isn't coconut oil extracted from it's "natural" package? Flax seeds? Hemp seeds? These are all good healthy fats.

This is where we dissagree. Animal products and animal fats do contain important nutrients. I am not arguing that plants do not contain important nutrients. I am arguing that a diet based on whole plants alone does not have enough fat a body needs. Are you telling me that you don't use coconut oil, flax oil at all? All you eat are veggies, fruits, whole grains in their whole state? I find that very hard to believe. You never bake a muffin using a fat?

I am also not saying that an animal diet is healthier, or a vegetarian/vegan diet is healthier. I see arguments for both sides and embrase both side equally, in regards to health benefits. I am a big believer on listening to your own body for that answer. I have a big problem with low fat diets in general. I have no problems with healthy, unprocessed fats. And when I say proccessed I am refering to those highly mechanically processed fats that go through some altering state to make them edible. All food goes through some processing, whether it be cooking/fermenting/extracting.
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#73 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 05:13 PM
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I'd say a very low fat whole foods plant based diet is about as mainstream as the high saturated fat whole foods (primarily) animal based WAPF diet.
Why are you arguing with me then? This is what I'm saying!
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#74 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 05:28 PM
 
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I think there are some widespread misconceptions about traditional Mediterranean diets. I'm not an archaeologist, just an interested lay-person, but my understanding is that people in that region have historically been very reliant on dairy and meat from goats and sheep, and lots of fish and shellfish, in addition to the other things like olives and olive oil, a variety of veggies and fruits, whole grains, etc.
It depends on the region. Some of the Mediterranean groups do consume meat but in moderation (red and lamb once a month, fish and poultry once a week- abouts) as is the same for dairy. The Mediterranean is a pretty big place as is the world and one diet does not fit every civilization and every given time.

What I think is that everyone is different and we know what our bodies need if we stop and listen. It's entirely possible for us- as it was for some traditional peoples- to live and thrive on a plant-based diet as well as one with more meat. What I think we call all agree on is that unnatural processed foods are bad and we should be eating foods in the most natural state possible. This is my focus. Eat what you will but make sure it is natural for optimal health. Oh and that you're not allergic to it.

ETA- the only bits I have read about the Mediterranean diet not being plant-based/near veg are written by Sally Fallon or other WAPers. It's pretty widely accepted that that is the Med lifestyle. BUT nothing is 100% in my opinion. We can say all Italians eat chicken because a lot do but there are still those that don't (not saying that is true just pulling an example out of my rear )

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#75 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 05:40 PM
 
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Isn't coconut oil extracted from it's "natural" package? Flax seeds? Hemp seeds? These are all good healthy fats.

This is where we dissagree. Animal products and animal fats do contain important nutrients. I am not arguing that plants do not contain important nutrients. I am arguing that a diet based on whole plants alone does not have enough fat a body needs. Are you telling me that you don't use coconut oil, flax oil at all? All you eat are veggies, fruits, whole grains in their whole state? I find that very hard to believe. You never bake a muffin using a fat?

I am also not saying that an animal diet is healthier, or a vegetarian/vegan diet is healthier. I see arguments for both sides and embrase both side equally, in regards to health benefits. I am a big believer on listening to your own body for that answer. I have a big problem with low fat diets in general. I have no problems with healthy, unprocessed fats. And when I say proccessed I am refering to those highly mechanically processed fats that go through some altering state to make them edible. All food goes through some processing, whether it be cooking/fermenting/extracting.
I am saying that I do not use oils. I cook and bake without oil - it is possible.

But yes you are right that I do eat foods that have been minimally processed, cooked, fermented, etc. I just think that oils are too processed for me since fat, especially the polyunsaturated fat found in plants, is too volatile to extract from the whole food in which it's contained without damaging it. That's just my opinion based on my research.

I also believe that a whole foods plant based diet can, and does for many people, have enough fat without adding sources of 100% fat like oils or animal fats. I'm not saying that this is the diet for everyone, but it works quite well for me. For example, when I eat very little fat (less than 15% of calories) my skin looks healthy. When I eat more fat, my skin gets very oily and breaks out, even when the fats are from healthy whole foods. Eating a lot of fat also makes me feel tired and gain weight. I know this is not everyone's experience, but it's mine. I'm only disagreeing with the sentiment that low fat diets are inherently unhealthy. So I'm not arguing with you, just splitting hairs a bit.
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#76 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 05:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
It depends on the region. Some of the Mediterranean groups do consume meat but in moderation (red and lamb once a month, fish and poultry once a week- abouts) as is the same for dairy. The Mediterranean is a pretty big place as is the world and one diet does not fit every civilization and every given time.

What I think is that everyone is different and we know what our bodies need if we stop and listen. It's entirely possible for us- as it was for some traditional peoples- to live and thrive on a plant-based diet as well as one with more meat. What I think we call all agree on is that unnatural processed foods are bad and we should be eating foods in the most natural state possible. This is my focus. Eat what you will but make sure it is natural for optimal health. Oh and that you're not allergic to it.

ETA- the only bits I have read about the Mediterranean diet not being plant-based/near veg are written by Sally Fallon or other WAPers. It's pretty widely accepted that that is the Med lifestyle. BUT nothing is 100% in my opinion. We can say all Italians eat chicken because a lot do but there are still those that don't (not saying that is true just pulling an example out of my rear )
I agree with you on all points.
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#77 of 110 Old 03-14-2008, 10:44 PM
 
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I don't think saturated fat is good for you. I have read Weston Price's position, but I don't agree. I think ghee is better for you than regular butter, but it's not the same on toast. I think the Nurse's Health Study and the Nurse's Health Study II which have studied tens of thousands of women in North America and the impact diet has on their health is more relevant to my life than the diet of traditional peoples in the Amazon.
The Nurse's Studies found that a low-fat diet does NOT prevent heart disease or cancer. They didn't differentiate between types of fat. The theory that saturated fat is a "bad" fat has never been proven. Here is an excellent article on saturated fat--from MSNBC (not from WAPF):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22116724/

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We've spent billions of our tax dollars trying to prove the diet-heart hypothesis. Yet study after study has failed to provide definitive evidence that saturated-fat intake leads to heart disease. The most recent example is the Women's Health Initiative, the government's largest and most expensive ($725 million) diet study yet. The results, published last year, show that a diet low in total fat and saturated fat had no impact in reducing heart-disease and stroke rates in some 20,000 women who had adhered to the regimen for an average of 8 years.
Oh yeah, I vote for Butter! :
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#78 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 01:06 AM
 
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Gary Taubes new book, Good Calorie, Bad Calorie, has tons of research on this and similar issues, going back many, many years. It seems we have been duped by the medical establishment about a lot of foods for a long time now.
It's a dry read, due to all the research, but well worth it!

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#79 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 03:34 AM
 
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i use a little of each of the following

coconut oil
canola oil
olive oil
organic grass fed butter
or earth balance

you should always keep variety of some kind...use earth balance this week and when you get to the store buy some organic butter or coconut oil

earth balance is non-gmo!
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#80 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 05:32 AM
 
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The Nurse's Studies found that a low-fat diet does NOT prevent heart disease or cancer. They didn't differentiate between types of fat. The theory that saturated fat is a "bad" fat has never been proven. Here is an excellent article on saturated fat--from MSNBC (not from WAPF):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22116724/
The Nurses study and the Women's Health Initiative study had some flaws, though. The "low fat" diet that these women consumed was not all that low fat, to begin with. I don't have the data right now, but I can look for it later. Basically, they are comparing women who all ate pretty much the same diet - very heavy in animal products with the main difference being some drank skim milk and ate skinless chicken while others ate the full fat variety. If they compared women who ate a truly low fat plant based diet to women who ate what they call a "low fat" diet and women who ate high fat diets, then I'd consider the results accurate. But they didn't. There is quite a bit of evidence (I can look for links later) that shows that a truly low fat plant based diet can reverse heart disease.
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#81 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 05:43 AM
 
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Gary Taubes new book, Good Calorie, Bad Calorie, has tons of research on this and similar issues, going back many, many years. It seems we have been duped by the medical establishment about a lot of foods for a long time now.
It's a dry read, due to all the research, but well worth it!
I read this book, and while there was some of it that I whole heartedly agreed with, I also took issue with some of it. First, he made an excellent case against refined carbohydrates and refined oils. I think all of us here agree that refined overly processed manmade food is bad. Where I took issue with the book is that he never gave any evidence that carbohydrates from whole foods are bad for you, and he completely ignored entire populations of people on earth who are healthy --and do not suffer from the epidemic of Western diseases-- who eat a high carb diet with very little animal products. He made a case for low carb diets for people whose metabolism has been damaged by eating too many refined foods, but he never gave any evidence that eating a whole foods high carb diet causes any of these problems. He also ignored the evidence that a whole foods plant based low fat high carb diet can also be therapeutic to people with diabetes and heart disease. Again, I can look for links later (or go back to where I posted a few links to studies earlier), but I need to go to work soon.
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#82 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 10:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rayo de sol View Post
The Nurse's Studies found that a low-fat diet does NOT prevent heart disease or cancer. They didn't differentiate between types of fat. The theory that saturated fat is a "bad" fat has never been proven. Here is an excellent article on saturated fat--from MSNBC (not from WAPF):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22116724/
The Nurses' Health Study does differentiate between types of fat (poly- and mono- unsaturated and saturated) though, I'm not sure if it differentiates types of saturated fats. I'm sure you could find out if you want, though. Here's a link to the site — http://www.channing.harvard.edu/nhs/ .

The MSNBC (Men's Health) article fails to mention the Nurses' Health Study or the Nurses' Health Study II at all. I have read that article before, but I don't really find it compelling. It talks about a buncha old studies and says Ancel Keys work may have been flawed (not disputing that), but aside from a very brief mention of the Women's Health Initiative (not the same as the Nurses' Health Studies, btw) and a meta analysis they don't mention much about long term large scale studies. I really don't have that much in common with the Masai in Kenya or folks in Finland from the 50s and 60s, y'know?

If you google "Nurses' Health Study" and "saturated fat" you'll find plenty of hits...


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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9366580
BACKGROUND: The relation between dietary intake of specific types of fat, particularly trans unsaturated fat and the risk of coronary disease remains unclear. We therefore studied this relation in women enrolled in the Nurses' Health Study.
...
We estimated that the replacement of 5 percent of energy from saturated fat with energy from unsaturated fats would reduce risk by 42 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 23 to 56; P<0.001) and that the replacement of 2 percent of energy from trans fat with energy from unhydrogenated, unsaturated fats would reduce risk by 53 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 34 to 67; P<.001). CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest that replacing saturated and trans unsaturated fats with unhydrogenated monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats is more effective in preventing coronary heart disease in women than reducing overall fat intake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemongrass;
The Nurses study and the Women's Health Initiative study had some flaws, though. The "low fat" diet that these women consumed was not all that low fat, to begin with. I don't have the data right now, but I can look for it later. Basically, they are comparing women who all ate pretty much the same diet - very heavy in animal products with the main difference being some drank skim milk and ate skinless chicken while others ate the full fat variety. If they compared women who ate a truly low fat plant based diet to women who ate what they call a "low fat" diet and women who ate high fat diets, then I'd consider the results accurate. But they didn't. There is quite a bit of evidence (I can look for links later) that shows that a truly low fat plant based diet can reverse heart disease.
Lemongrass, I was under the impression (and I could certainly be mistaken) that the women in the Nurses' Health Study weren't actually on diets prescribed by the study, but were just reporting their own diets to the study. I think there are approximately 80,000+ women in the study? I'm sure many of them do eat a more "mainstream" diet than I do, but there probably are some who do eat closer to what I do. The question is, really, how they ask the questions about what the women ate. I don't know the answer to that, but if you want to check out the site above it may have more info on that. I do remember in Walter Willett's book, Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy he said it turned out that the women who got their salad dressing on the side instead of on the salad were depriving themselves of fats in the salad dressing which were typically "good" polyunsaturated soy oil fats and the women who ate the salad dressing turned out to be healthier than the women who didn't. I can dig up the book and quote if you want, but not sure where it is at the moment.

I think unsaturated fats are good and I am open to the idea that some of the sat fats might be good, too (stearic acid), but I'm not sure about palmitic and lauric. Could be, though. At any rate, I think that the Nurses' Health Study is designed in such a way that it's open enough to be able to find some of these things out. The Women's Health Initiative may be, too. I can't remember about that one, although I think my mom was part of it for awhile.

In the meantime, I am sure that BUTTER is better for orangutans so that's probably what I will stick with since I'm not sure that I'm more important than the orangutans and I'll take my chances with fluffy cholesterol or dense cholesterol.

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Originally Posted by lemongrass View Post
The Nurses study and the Women's Health Initiative study had some flaws, though. The "low fat" diet that these women consumed was not all that low fat, to begin with. I don't have the data right now, but I can look for it later. Basically, they are comparing women who all ate pretty much the same diet - very heavy in animal products with the main difference being some drank skim milk and ate skinless chicken while others ate the full fat variety. If they compared women who ate a truly low fat plant based diet to women who ate what they call a "low fat" diet and women who ate high fat diets, then I'd consider the results accurate. But they didn't. There is quite a bit of evidence (I can look for links later) that shows that a truly low fat plant based diet can reverse heart disease.
The problem with these health studies, is there is so much more to health than diet alone. We are so much more than just our bodies and what we put into them. Did the study take into account the life and emotions of these women? I doubt it. You cannot compartmentalize any aspect of human being if you want a true picture of health. Where they happy? Did they have any emotional stresses in their lives? Also as you well know, there are fats and there are fats, how would the women have done if they had been consuming a diet of raw animal fats? FWIW, the body can reverse heart disease on its own, the basis of all dis-ease is psycho-emotional. If a person can resolve the underlying issue, which is always energetic, that "caused" the heart disease in the first place, they will get better on a low fat plant based diet as well as a diet high in raw cream, which is what I would actually recommend.

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#84 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 11:29 AM
 
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I go for real over fake, every single day. Even if its a choice between conventional butter vs organci margirine, i still choose butter. Its real. Its NOT heavily modified, its real honest to goodness food that people have been eating for generations. Its better.
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The problem with these health studies, is there is so much more to health than diet alone. We are so much more than just our bodies and what we put into them. Did the study take into account the life and emotions of these women? I doubt it. You cannot compartmentalize any aspect of human being if you want a true picture of health. Where they happy? Did they have any emotional stresses in their lives? Also as you well know, there are fats and there are fats, how would the women have done if they had been consuming a diet of raw animal fats? FWIW, the body can reverse heart disease on its own, the basis of all dis-ease is psycho-emotional. If a person can resolve the underlying issue, which is always energetic, that "caused" the heart disease in the first place, they will get better on a low fat plant based diet as well as a diet high in raw cream, which is what I would actually recommend.
I agree with the impact of energy on health. That is actually one reason why I choose to not eat animal products, because I don't want to consume the negative energy of animals that have been killed or separated from their babies or otherwise used by people, etc. Of course this is just my opinion, ymmv.

I would like to know, though, why you would suggest a diet high in raw cream when you believe that disease is always energetic? What difference would it make what (whole foods) diet someone eats?
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#86 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 12:06 PM
 
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So, can a person achieve optimal health on a diet that includes no animal products?

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#87 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 12:20 PM
 
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Lemongrass, I was under the impression (and I could certainly be mistaken) that the women in the Nurses' Health Study weren't actually on diets prescribed by the study, but were just reporting their own diets to the study. I think there are approximately 80,000+ women in the study? I'm sure many of them do eat a more "mainstream" diet than I do, but there probably are some who do eat closer to what I do. The question is, really, how they ask the questions about what the women ate. I don't know the answer to that, but if you want to check out the site above it may have more info on that. I do remember in Walter Willett's book, Eat, Drink, and Be Healthy he said it turned out that the women who got their salad dressing on the side instead of on the salad were depriving themselves of fats in the salad dressing which were typically "good" polyunsaturated soy oil fats and the women who ate the salad dressing turned out to be healthier than the women who didn't. I can dig up the book and quote if you want, but not sure where it is at the moment.
Thanks for that link to the Nurses' Health Study. I'll read it when I have time. I think you're right that the nurses were just given surveys about what they ate, their lifestyles, etc. They were not put on a diet like the Women's Health Initiative where they were given instructions to drink skim milk and eat lower fat meats and more fruit and vegetables. I doubt that many of the nurses eat a diet like mine, so it's hard to make conclusions based on this particular study regarding the type of diet that I eat. I will read the website, though, before I say anything more.

Regarding the study about salad dressing, I have one problem with it. I'm paraphrasing something I read by a RD that advocates the type of diet I eat...Basically, the study would have been more convincing if they also included a group of women who ate the same amount of calories' worth of more salad as the calories in the salad dressing and measured how many nutrients were absorbed by these women. I'm not sure if I'm making what I'm trying to say clear. Let's say the salad dressing was 100 calories. They could take a group who ate the salad plus 100 calories of dressing and measure how many nutrients they absorbed from the salad. Then they could take another group who ate the original salad plus 100 calories worth of more salad and measure how many nutrients they absorbed from what they ate. Then you could compare those two groups, and the findings would be more relevant than comparing the original two groups (one that ate just the salad and the one that ate the salad plus dressing). See what I'm saying?
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There is quite a bit of evidence (I can look for links later) that shows that a truly low fat plant based diet can reverse heart disease.
Right but I think this is because it is compared to the SAD. When I went vegan I felt GREAT but I am realizing now that it wasn't so much that I was vegan but rather because I was eating whole foods in contrast to the SAD I had been on all my life. I know this because when I eat whole foods including animal products I feel wonderful as well. So the flaw in these studies is that they are comparing it (low fat) to the SAD and pretty much ANYTHING is better than that However no one is sure of the long term effects of a low fat diet. Although I am sure it works for a lot of people I am more apt to think that our bodies have seasons- sometimes we need more fat and sometimes less. The idea that we need low/no fat all the time or even lots of fats all the time is an ignorant one : (on the researcher's part, not yours! )

ETA- I think that a low fat diet works to clean out and detox the body which is another reason why it has such great success in weight loss and reversing disease. When one is on the SAD this is exactly what they need.

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Originally Posted by lemongrass View Post
I agree with the impact of energy on health. That is actually one reason why I choose to not eat animal products, because I don't want to consume the negative energy of animals that have been killed or separated from their babies or otherwise used by people, etc. Of course this is just my opinion, ymmv.

I would like to know, though, why you would suggest a diet high in raw cream when you believe that disease is always energetic? What difference would it make what (whole foods) diet someone eats?
Because it is nurturing and supportive of the body during its healing. If I answered your other question we would start getting too esoteric for this thread. I should also have clarified that not *all* dis-ease is psycho-emotional, the exceptions being, physical trauma, poisoning and malnutrition.

People do well on a certain diet because they are essentially happy in their lives which is why I believe one diet won't fit all. Of course I am not in anyway condoning a cr@ppy SAD diet because the majority of the nutrition comes from non-foods. Personally, I eat follow the raw Primal Diet of Aajonus Vonderplanitz, but that is my preference, given what I have learned over many years. I have been both vegan and vegetarian.

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#90 of 110 Old 03-15-2008, 03:13 PM
 
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Right but I think this is because it is compared to the SAD. When I went vegan I felt GREAT but I am realizing now that it wasn't so much that I was vegan but rather because I was eating whole foods in contrast to the SAD I had been on all my life. I know this because when I eat whole foods including animal products I feel wonderful as well. So the flaw in these studies is that they are comparing it (low fat) to the SAD and pretty much ANYTHING is better than that However no one is sure of the long term effects of a low fat diet. Although I am sure it works for a lot of people I am more apt to think that our bodies have seasons- sometimes we need more fat and sometimes less. The idea that we need low/no fat all the time or even lots of fats all the time is an ignorant one : (on the researcher's part, not yours! )

ETA- I think that a low fat diet works to clean out and detox the body which is another reason why it has such great success in weight loss and reversing disease. When one is on the SAD this is exactly what they need.


I just want to clarify one point, there is no whole foods diet that has no fat. Even if you ate nothing but rice and veggies, you'd still be eating about 10% fat. Just sayin'.

Another thing, we are aware of the long term effects of a low fat diet as seen in populations in other parts of the world where they eat significantly less fat than in America, and the effects are quite positive - less heart disease, cancer and diabetes (I think this is common knowledge, but I could dig up some links or feel free to Google "traditional Asian diet"). These aren't therapeutic diets to treat disease - they are the normal eating patterns of these particular cultures. Considering that rural Asians eat around 15% fat, and there are billions of rural Asians, I think we have a good idea of the long term effects of a low fat whole foods diet.
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