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#1 of 35 Old 08-09-2008, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi,
My toddler and I eat vegan diet most of time. We eat miso with tofu, drink soymilk everyday and eat edame beans. Are we eating too much soy? My toddler doesn't eat beans. So soybeans are very important to her as source of protein.

I found this article.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/...wmd/index.html


I also heard soy is destroying the environment too, the way it is being grown commercially.
Thanks!
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#2 of 35 Old 08-09-2008, 04:01 PM
 
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You'll find many differing opinions on soy here at MDC.
We personally use soy in moderation, some everyday, but try to use mainly traditional forms, not ultra-processed forms. And fermented or cultured soy is considered the healthiest, ie. tempeh, miso, tamari, etc.

I like John Robbins article re: soy:
http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm

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#3 of 35 Old 08-09-2008, 04:08 PM
 
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I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism in my early 20s, which I attribute to over doing soy products through my teen years (soy milk, soy burgers, tofu stir-fry, etc..a few soy products a day). I've since cut it out and only have fermented soy products (as soy was traditionally consumed, not processed and hurried like it's consumed in NA) on occasion. I've since had my thyroid levels checked and am within normal range now. (my Dr. advised to keep eating soy and we could just up the dose of thyroid medication as need be, and that didn't jive with me one bit).

Now whenever I need a meat alternative I turn to tempeh instead of tofu (and other high-protien things like beans, quinoa, cheese, eggs, etc.). I cut out drinking milk as a beverage as well and just turn to water when I'm thirsty.

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#4 of 35 Old 08-09-2008, 04:40 PM
 
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I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism in my early 20s, which I attribute to over doing soy products through my teen years (soy milk, soy burgers, tofu stir-fry, etc..a few soy products a day). I've since cut it out and only have fermented soy products (as soy was traditionally consumed, not processed and hurried like it's consumed in NA) on occasion. I've since had my thyroid levels checked and am within normal range now. (my Dr. advised to keep eating soy and we could just up the dose of thyroid medication as need be, and that didn't jive with me one bit).

Now whenever I need a meat alternative I turn to tempeh instead of tofu (and other high-protien things like beans, quinoa, cheese, eggs, etc.). I cut out drinking milk as a beverage as well and just turn to water when I'm thirsty.
Yep. All this. In fact, this could be my life, except for the fact that I over-did soy in my 20's. I wonder if there's any critical mass of people out there who think that soy threw their thyroids out of wack?

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#5 of 35 Old 08-10-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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check out this website for more information, be especially wary of soy protein bars and processed soy products.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

my sil is a vegetarian who relies (relied) heavily on protein bars, tofu, soymilk, etc, for her protein intake. she developed thyroid issues recently and has a small goiter! there is too much information out there suggesting a link between thyroid issues and soy to be coincidence. I think if you do eat soy be sure it is organic, non-gmo, fermented (miso and tempeh) and in small quantities. remember too that it lurks in many items you would not suspect so your actual intake could be significantly more than you are aware of.
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#6 of 35 Old 08-11-2008, 08:08 AM
 
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I attribute my previous pregnancy's hyperthyroidism to my massive soy consumption during that time. I wasn't in the "soy habit" this time to the same degree, and tried to up my soy (for protein) until I noticed how it made my thyroid symptoms come back. I now have less than 8 oz. soy milk per day and the symptoms seem to be in check.

Just an interesting note I heard yesterday: New studies suggest that men who consume a lot of soy have a lower sperm count.
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#7 of 35 Old 08-11-2008, 03:06 PM
 
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I think that low sperm count study was done with very few men.

I find this interesting:
http://www.bryannaclarkgrogan.com/page/page/3476771.htm

We eat soy occasionally.
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#8 of 35 Old 08-12-2008, 11:42 AM
 
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Just an interesting note I heard yesterday: New studies suggest that men who consume a lot of soy have a lower sperm count.
I wish it were true for my husband! LOL. We can't seem to stop getting pregnant despite ample soy and birth control.

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#9 of 35 Old 08-12-2008, 11:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by michelle o'keefe View Post
check out this website for more information, be especially wary of soy protein bars and processed soy products.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html
Just offering some counters to their arguments:
http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/f...tary_myths.htm

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#10 of 35 Old 08-12-2008, 02:36 PM
 
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For me, it totally screwed up my health. I used to eat processed soy for two out of three meals every day, and drank three to four large glass of soy milk.

I did this for years, and didn't connect my symptoms (weight gain, hormonal and emotional problems) with soy until I found information about it on the Weston Price Foundation site.

Once I eliminated it from my diet, all the symptoms disappeared. It is so nice to have few to zero symptoms with my period (although I think a meat-heavy diet helped too).

Yes, some of their sources and studies cited are not the best, but overall, I would say their information is sound.

One thing pro-soy advocates don't mention (especially the likes of John Robbins, the "Healthy at 100" writer) about soy and Asian cultures is that soy is always consumed with meat, either a fish broth or sauce.

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#11 of 35 Old 08-12-2008, 02:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chicharronita View Post
One thing pro-soy advocates don't mention (especially the likes of John Robbins, the "Healthy at 100" writer) about soy and Asian cultures is that soy is always consumed with meat, either a fish broth or sauce.
Simply not true, since many asians are Buddhists, and many follow a diet devoid of animal products; some Buddhists do use eggs though. The temple food there is always vegetarian.

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#12 of 35 Old 08-12-2008, 07:10 PM
 
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Simply not true, since many asians are Buddhists, and many follow a diet devoid of animal products; some Buddhists do use eggs though. The temple food there is always vegetarian.
I don't know about Buddhists, but the basis of most Asian recipes, like miso for instance, is fish (shaved bonito flakes). Fish sauce is a staple in Southeast Asian cooking.

Just look into any traditional Asian cookbook.

As far as I know, they don't have separate sections for monks.

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#13 of 35 Old 08-12-2008, 08:30 PM
 
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I'm not sure what exactly I believe about soy, theres so much conflicting research. We do eat some - mostly soy sauce and tofu a couple times a month (probably averages out to about 1x ever 2 wks), but we avoid almost all processed foods, mostly because I just don't think they can possibly be good for you. And what soy we do eat I make sure is organic, because almost everything else is GMO and I am just NOT convinced that GMO foods, be them soy or corn or canola or potatoes or whatever are safe. Actually, I'm convinced the opposite - that they are not safe and are damaging our bodies, our environments and everything else. But thats another thread.
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#14 of 35 Old 08-15-2008, 08:32 PM
 
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In the John Robbins article he says two to three servings of soy per day does not contain enough phytates to cause health problems.

That is pretty much what we were eating on top of grain cereals, breads, pastas, rice, crackers. We were vegan at the time when my daughter became failure to thrive and started to have dental decay at about 18months.

To much soy does cause health problems.
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#15 of 35 Old 08-15-2008, 09:55 PM
 
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There are also major differences between unfermented and fermented soy, which a lot of the researchers neglect to mention when they talk about how much soy Asians eat.

I'm another hypo who screwed up my health with soy.

AND, if you aren't an MDC member, and are just an average Joe who eats fast food and convenience foods from the grocery store, odds are you get several servings of soy a day because they put it in everything.

If you google 'soy aliases' you'll see it's in canned tuna, baked goods, frozen and canned foods, dry goods, baking mixes, crackers, cooking oils, cooking sprays, chewing gum, candy, drink mixes, lunch meats, meatballs, salad dressings, tomato sauces, most restaurant foods, you name it. The phrase 'in moderation' is an absolute joke for people who aren't willing to make their food from scratch.

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#16 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 09:28 AM
 
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We were vegan at the time when my daughter became failure to thrive and started to have dental decay at about 18months.

To much soy does cause health problems.
How did you determine it was definitely a soy-allergy?
I have 4 vegan children with no health problems, so I don't agree that soy atuomatically=poor health.

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#17 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 09:29 AM
 
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I don't know about Buddhists, but the basis of most Asian recipes, like miso for instance, is fish (shaved bonito flakes). Fish sauce is a staple in Southeast Asian cooking.

Just look into any traditional Asian cookbook.
I have quite a few asian cookbooks, some in Japanese. The base for miso is dashi stock, which is often made from fish but also from mushrooms and/or seaweed.

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#18 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 01:03 PM
 
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How did you determine it was definitely a soy-allergy?
I have 4 vegan children with no health problems, so I don't agree that soy atuomatically=poor health.
: Older DD was vegan until she was close to 6 (eats chicken occasionally now) and she never had weight issues, allergies, or tooth decay (and still doesn't at age 11). The soy she consumed was soy milk, tofu and Yves veggie dogs (I sent her with them to events/b-day parties where they were serving hot dogs!).

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#19 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 01:57 PM
 
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How did you determine it was definitely a soy-allergy?
I have 4 vegan children with no health problems, so I don't agree that soy atuomatically=poor health.
It was not a soy allergy.. It was the amount of soy (soy milk, processed soy meats, tofu etc) and the high content of phytates that did not allow for the absorption of vitamins and minerals. Phytates are anti-nutrients that caused my daughter to be failure to thrive.
They are in nuts, seeds, soy, grains, beans. To get rid of them you need to soak, ferment, and sprout them to get rid of phytates in your food.

Once we eliminated soy and started a traditional foods diet her dental decay never progressed to needing cavities and her teeth straightened out. She also gained weight.
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The thing with miso, tempeh, nato, etc. is thet they are all fermented soy products which are good to consume. It's the unfermented, genetically altered soy that is bad.

I also like this site here. Check out he history of soy first if you can't get around to looking at the whole site.

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There are also major differences between unfermented and fermented soy, which a lot of the researchers neglect to mention when they talk about how much soy Asians eat.
ITA. I think if I had stuck with traditional fermented soy foods, I wouldn't have wrecked my health.

Quote:
AND, if you aren't an MDC member, and are just an average Joe who eats fast food and convenience foods from the grocery store, odds are you get several servings of soy a day because they put it in everything.

If you google 'soy aliases' you'll see it's in canned tuna, baked goods, frozen and canned foods, dry goods, baking mixes, crackers, cooking oils, cooking sprays, chewing gum, candy, drink mixes, lunch meats, meatballs, salad dressings, tomato sauces, most restaurant foods, you name it. The phrase 'in moderation' is an absolute joke for people who aren't willing to make their food from scratch.
In addition, soy flour is now in a lot of breads. I was surprised to see it as an ingredient in one of the brands Trader Joe's carries. I assume it's because wheat has gotten so expensive, it's one way to keep costs down.

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In the John Robbins article he says two to three servings of soy per day does not contain enough phytates to cause health problems.

That is pretty much what we were eating on top of grain cereals, breads, pastas, rice, crackers. We were vegan at the time when my daughter became failure to thrive and started to have dental decay at about 18months.

To much soy does cause health problems.
That's what Robbins fails to take into account—most people who are cutting out meat and replacing it with soy and other grains (especially whole grains) are probably getting a lot more phytates than what is good for them.

The proof is in the pudding—if the diet works, then you shouldn't have any failure to thrive or dental problems. However, it seems like many people and their kids have all kinds of dental problems despite eating "healthy."

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I have quite a few asian cookbooks, some in Japanese. The base for miso is dashi stock, which is often made from fish but also from mushrooms and/or seaweed.

Yes, and the average non-monk Japanese person (speaking as someone who grew up in Japan) almost always makes the fish version, reserving the vegetarian broth for a few special recipes.

"Back in the day" my grandmother would buy a huge hunk of dried bonito that she'd shave every morning to make miso with. Nowadays everyone just gets the bags of fish flakes.

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That's what Robbins fails to take into account—most people who are cutting out meat and replacing it with soy and other grains (especially whole grains) are probably getting a lot more phytates than what is good for them.

The proof is in the pudding—if the diet works, then you shouldn't have any failure to thrive or dental problems. However, it seems like many people and their kids have all kinds of dental problems despite eating "healthy."
The problem is that vegans don't see anything wrong with eating "fake" meats. They are marketed as health food and sold in health food stores. They are "fat free" and people with high cholesterol are told to substitute these fake meats for real meats. These fake meats also contain sugar which is a cause for heart disease. I am reading Dr. Atkins books and there is plenty of scientific evidence that it is elevated insulin and triglycirides (sp??) that cause heart disease (this is what sugar/soy and other denatured products in fake meats does) and that saturated fat is not the cause of heart disease. The dieticians are recommending fake food because mine did when I took dd and myself to see her.

ETA: This is a bit off topic:

Dr. Atkins actually talks about who profits in the food business.
When you think about eggs, fresh cream, meat, garden produce - these are the foods that come off the farm. This is the stuff i get directly from the farmer. There is no distributer, the food comes from local sources. The money I spend goes directly to the farmer. This money is used to feed the animals and pay his mortgage and farm equipment.


When you buy boxed processed food, you get many ingredients coming from many different places. You have to process and denature the ingredients, make the equipment to create your food ie. fake meat making equipment, hire the employees to run and maintain this equipment, you need a factory, you need managers, you need packaging, shipping/distributing and many other corporate business practices. It is in their best practice to do things as cheaply as possible so that they can get as much profit.

So who do you think has the corporate agenda?? Your local organic farmer or the corporate fake meat industry?

Vegetarians (i used to be one and I did have this opinion) had the opinion that the meat and milk industry was evil and out for money. Maybe it is the Soy and grain industry that is the more evil one putting all this processed crap that fills more than 75% of my grocery store.
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In addition, soy flour is now in a lot of breads. I was surprised to see it as an ingredient in one of the brands Trader Joe's carries. I assume it's because wheat has gotten so expensive, it's one way to keep costs down.
That, in a nutshell, is why soy is in everything. It's a massive fraud perpetuated on the public in the guise of bettering our health. They figured out that they could replace fats, flours and proteins with one cheap little bean that was being used to feed livestock, and they managed to convince people it was health food. That makes not one, but three different things
that are being replaced with this one cheaply produced, highly profitable item.

Pure evil marketing genius. And a complete fraud.


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The problem is that vegans don't see anything wrong with eating "fake" meats. They are marketed as health food and sold in health food stores. They are "fat free" and people with high cholesterol are told to substitute these fake meats for real meats. These fake meats also contain sugar which is a cause for heart disease. I am reading Dr. Atkins books and there is plenty of scientific evidence that it is elevated insulin and triglycirides (sp??) that cause heart disease (this is what sugar/soy and other denatured products in fake meats does) and that saturated fat is not the cause of heart disease. The dieticians are recommending fake food because mine did when I took dd and myself to see her.

ETA: This is a bit off topic:

Dr. Atkins actually talks about who profits in the food business.
When you think about eggs, fresh cream, meat, garden produce - these are the foods that come off the farm. This is the stuff i get directly from the farmer. There is no distributer, the food comes from local sources. The money I spend goes directly to the farmer. This money is used to feed the animals and pay his mortgage and farm equipment.


When you buy boxed processed food, you get many ingredients coming from many different places. You have to process and denature the ingredients, make the equipment to create your food ie. fake meat making equipment, hire the employees to run and maintain this equipment, you need a factory, you need managers, you need packaging, shipping/distributing and many other corporate business practices. It is in their best practice to do things as cheaply as possible so that they can get as much profit.

So who do you think has the corporate agenda?? Your local organic farmer or the corporate fake meat industry?

Vegetarians (i used to be one and I did have this opinion) had the opinion that the meat and milk industry was evil and out for money. Maybe it is the Soy and grain industry that is the more evil one putting all this processed crap that fills more than 75% of my grocery store.
Not all vegans feel this way. To be honest, I know of a lot more vegans who eat local organic whole foods than I know meat eaters who don't eat fast food at least once a week and buy all sorts of crap.

I'm vegan. But I rarely eat soy. I may have tofu once a month but I usually just eat beans. I feed my LO lacto ovo. They eat dairy from a local farmer, eggs from our friends ducks. They're very healthy.

I think people should eat what makes them feel healthiest. To suggest all vegans are unhealthy and have dental problems is silly. Just as to suggest all meat eaters have clogged colons and arteries is silly. The majority of vegans I know are soy free.

If for some reason I had to eat meat, I'd include fish that we catch but I don't think I could stomach or handle eating other animals ever again. I think I'd probably rather be sick
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That, in a nutshell, is why soy is in everything. It's a massive fraud perpetuated on the public in the guise of bettering our health. They figured out that they could replace fats, flours and proteins with one cheap little bean that was being used to feed livestock, and they managed to convince people it was health food. That makes not one, but three different things
that are being replaced with this one cheaply produced, highly profitable item.

Pure evil marketing genius. And a complete fraud.

ITA
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#28 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 11:26 PM
 
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I think people should eat what makes them feel healthiest. To suggest all vegans are unhealthy and have dental problems is silly. Just as to suggest all meat eaters have clogged colons and arteries is silly. The majority of vegans I know are soy free.
A vegan diet is high in sugars. Whether comes from fruit, grains, high carb veggies, beans, lentils, soy - all this food raises insulin levels. Having high insulin is scientifically proven to be unhealthy. Dr. Mercola's website has a lot of medical info on that. A vegan diet gave me systemic candida - i have been trying to fight it for 16years. There is also a an Italian dr. that proves that yeasts are cancer. There is always yeast in cancer.

Other diseases that are caused by high insulin are diabetes, cancer, aging related diseases, heart disease, obesity, many bowel diseases, allergies and food intolerences etc.


Some times you don't know you are being poisoned. I was eating tonnes of fruit thinking that it was healthy for me - you know with all of their antioxidants and vitamins. But did you know that yeast release over 75 toxins into your body. So instead of the fruit helping me it was actually poisoning me.

You may not think you have a problem until you get sick.

I had been doing an Atkins diet and doing very well and feeling fantastic. I made lentil soup for dinner - which is rather high carb. This soup totally threw me off kilter and caused some huge carb cravings. Lets just say I had a couple days of binging and felt rotten.

Insulin is so powerful. It is the one hormone that you want to make sure you keep in check.

ETA: added link that scientific proof that carbohydrates cause disease
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#29 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 11:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vegmom View Post
The problem is that vegans don't see anything wrong with eating "fake" meats. They are marketed as health food and sold in health food stores. They are "fat free" and people with high cholesterol are told to substitute these fake meats for real meats.
I wasn't vegan at the time, but I bought the whole fat-and-meat-is-evil propaganda hook line and sinker. I send cyber-kicks to those "health" advocates I followed in the 90s!

For years my ideal meal was a soy ham or turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread with Vegenaise, salad with low-fat dressing (I didn't check to see what oils or if sugar was in it, just the fat grams), and a large glass or two of soy milk.

The more I read, the more I'm convinced it's processed soy, sugar, and rancid polyunsaturated fats that are behind most peoples' health issues, and combined are probably deadly.

Of course, the problems don't show up immediately—even though I considered myself fairly health conscious at the time, I did NOT make the connection between my diet and health problems until I read the information on the Weston Price site. Even so, it took years for me to get over my fat phobia.

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#30 of 35 Old 08-16-2008, 11:50 PM
 
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quote from http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...rates-age.aspx

The scientific evidence is clear. Carbohydrates are a sinister, sly food category that has been getting away with murder. Carbohydrates have powerful allies. They grow, manufacture and market thousands of different carbohydrate products made from fruit, grains and starchy-vegetables. The supermarket floor space allotted to these manufactured carbohydrate foods is about 80 percent of the store, and yet the scientific minimum requirement for carbohydrates in the diet is ZERO.

Carbohydrates are not an essential element for health. In fact, optimal health lies in keeping the amount of carbohydrates in the diet to a minimum. The supermarket departments that contain the healthy essential proteins and essential fats are the fresh meats, fresh fish and seafood, dairy and non-starchy vegetables. Everything else in the store is very high in carbohydrates, which turn to glucose, hype the metabolism and trigger the release of disease-causing hormones like insulin, cortisol and adrenaline.
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