Breasts as sexual objects just doesn't make sense anymore. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 04:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HisBeautifulWife View Post
You don't have to strip naked to not be discrete. I've seen lots of non-discrete bf pictures that were taken in public places. But everyone has a different definition on discretion.

I feel that mutual respect should run rampant. I know that's not popular in this society, but it would help.
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What do you consider non-discrete then? Really? Cause I have never seen, pictures or otherwise, people being overtly non-discrete nursing. Some people consider it in-discrete to not cover your baby up with a blanket so you are completely covered. I find that rediculous. I am not going to make me and my baby uncomfortable while feeding him so you don't get (general you) disturbed by the sight of some skin. Honestly unless you have both boobs hanging out and your shirt up to your chin (as we all sometimes do at home ) while at the park I don't see a problem with seeing some skin.

As for mutual respect. Yea it should go both ways. The problem is, I don't necessarily agree with what you might think is respectful and vice versa.
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Actually my answer was to the two posts that asked what I considered to be discrete. That's what I was talking about. I wasn't saying this is what you must do to have respect...that's silly!

I think I've gotten all of the answers I'm going to get on the first two pages. We are winding down now. Thanks everyone for the 411.
Your response was to this post. Both of which mention discretion and mutual respect hand in hand.
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#62 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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I understand that some people feel no obligation to be considerate of others feelings in terms of making a situation uncomfortable. I am not at all saying that's you, I just know that a lot of people would say- who cares!

Women who do try to understand that others may not be comfortable might wear clothing that makes nursing so discrete that no one knows they are doing it, they might wear some sort of tank under their shirt so they they can pull that down and lift up their other shirt so that their back and stomach isn't hanging out, they may try to nurse in a low traffic area, and last but not least if they want to they will wear a cover but you don't necessarily have to cover to be discrete.

Of course no one has to do that, but then again no one has to be quiet if someone is making them uncomfortable.
And sometimes baby is screaming in hunger, and I'm hot, and he's sweating like a little piggy, and I could give a crap if my belly or back or cleavage is showing. And god forbid my baby is pulling off and on the nipple when going through a growth spurt and you see my nipple....

I'm glad I don't care. Mothering would be so much harder if I had to limit my public interactions to "low traffic areas" or wear 2 layers of clothing throughout the summer or piss my baby off with a blanket over his head. I'm still a person who has the right to enjoy every public social sphere.
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#63 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 04:39 PM
 
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And sometimes baby is screaming in hunger, and I'm hot, and he's sweating like a little piggy, and I could give a crap if my belly or back or cleavage is showing. And god forbid my baby is pulling off and on the nipple when going through a growth spurt and you see my nipple....

I'm glad I don't care. Mothering would be so much harder if I had to limit my public interactions to "low traffic areas" or wear 2 layers of clothing throughout the summer or piss my baby off with a blanket over his head. I'm still a person who has the right to enjoy every public social sphere.
Hehe.. Maybe we should all go nurse our babes in the bathroom.
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#64 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 04:45 PM
 
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Actually my answer was to the two posts that asked what I considered to be discrete. That's what I was talking about. I wasn't saying this is what you must do to have respect...that's silly!
I know what I said, and I know what I meant. I don't always directly quote; especially when its two different posts. You can either choose to accept my clarification, or not. This is online, not face to face, sometimes things are misunderstood, but like I said, this is what I meant so take it or leave it. It's really not that serious and as you should be able to tell I'm not trying to argue and I'm not going to, but I will clarify.

I think I've gotten all of the answers I'm going to get on the first two pages. We are winding down now. Thanks everyone for the 411.
I am just quoting this so aniT will hopefully get a notification of this and know that you edited your post. Otherwise, she would have no idea that you had more to say regarding this since MDC doesn't notify on edited posts.
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#65 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 04:45 PM
 
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As for the gyno, that's not even the same motions, at least not from my experience. The hands and tools don't do the same things as other acts. Though I'm sure some women might have reactions to that, but I can't say that I would be able to make those comparisons. Whereas on the other hand, suckling is suckling.

Could not be further from the truth.

An adult man or woman sucking on a breast is licking, sucking the nipple, playing with the nipple, etc. A baby has a VERY different way of latching on-- the entire areola is covered, the nipple is in the back of his throat, his tongue comes from the nipple to the areola to "milk" out the milk from the sinuses while the lower jaw pumps up and down, all of which is coordinated with swallowing and breathing.

You could not teach a grown man to do this if you tried. Try it. He'll be able to get milk somehow, but it will not feel remotely the same, nor will he get as much milk as a baby would.


And the difference in sexual feeling is so profound you can't really explain it. A baby nursing (after the initial few weeks of pain) feels good in a sensual, relaxed, loving way. We are given that flood of oxytocin at letdown for an important biological reason-- breastfeeding is SUPPOSSED to feel good so that we keep doing it and don't starve/ignore our hungry babies. I've described the feeling of having really engorged breasts get emptied by the baby as a combination of having to pee REALLY badly and then letting it all out and the feeling you get after an orgasm when you just want to cuddle and fall asleep.

BTW- it rarely feels like this in public, b/c you're not as relaxed. Which means you don't letdown easily and baby gets mad b/c he's not grtting as much milk.

If people stopped judging nursing moms and moms stopped worrying about every square inch of skin showing, then it'd be a lot easier to let down every time.
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#66 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 04:49 PM
 
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I am just quoting this so aniT will hopefully get a notification of this and know that you edited your post. Otherwise, she would have no idea that you had more to say regarding this since MDC doesn't notify on edited posts.
That clarification was completely unclear. .

I still see the discretion and mutual respect going hand in hand and I have seen nothing that "clarifies" this any differently.
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#67 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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That clarification was completely unclear. .

I still see the discretion and mutual respect going hand in hand and I have seen nothing that "clarifies" this any differently.
I didn't say I understood it, but I just wanted you be aware since it was directed towards you.

I agree. There hasn't been anything that shows respect towards the mother/child nursing relationship. Just the old don't let me see it stuff.
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#68 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:04 PM
 
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HisBeautifulWife, you seem to be demanding an explanation on something that is really pretty rare and not something that many here could even begin to explain because it is far from the norm. You might be better off googling to see if there is some sort of support network for situations like that. I guess I don't see why you are so concerned about something is not too likely to occur.
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#69 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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Could not be further from the truth.

An adult man or woman sucking on a breast is licking, sucking the nipple, playing with the nipple, etc. A baby has a VERY different way of latching on-- the entire areola is covered, the nipple is in the back of his throat, his tongue comes from the nipple to the areola to "milk" out the milk from the sinuses while the lower jaw pumps up and down, all of which is coordinated with swallowing and breathing.

You could not teach a grown man to do this if you tried. Try it. He'll be able to get milk somehow, but it will not feel remotely the same, nor will he get as much milk as a baby would.

And the difference in sexual feeling is so profound you can't really explain it. A baby nursing (after the initial few weeks of pain) feels good in a sensual, relaxed, loving way. We are given that flood of oxytocin at letdown for an important biological reason-- breastfeeding is SUPPOSSED to feel good so that we keep doing it and don't starve/ignore our hungry babies. I've described the feeling of having really engorged breasts get emptied by the baby as a combination of having to pee REALLY badly and then letting it all out and the feeling you get after an orgasm when you just want to cuddle and fall asleep.
That is helpful. Thank you.

See, I think I had a few different things going on in my mind at the same time and this just helped me realize that.

1) My main thing was the feeling/action
2) Then I was wondering if women should be shamed for feeling naturally good in a different way. Because sometimes people don't talk about the good feelings unless they are worried that they are doing something wrong. So I was wondering why is it bad to say that if it's natural.
3) Last I had my "but what if it's not" thoughts.

That's why I was trying to understand the science behind it all because what I'd read thus far was really over the top. It had some good reasons for saying it was sexual but then it went way over there into what the heck land. But I didn't take it as the same kind of sexual that most people think about when you say that word. But it left me very, very confused.

I know I didn't communicate that because I just realized the full picture of my thoughts from your post. That might not make sense but my mind jumps from thought to thought to thought and sometimes I mix it all together without saying that's what I am doing.
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#70 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:09 PM
 
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That is helpful. Thank you.

See, I think I had a few different things going on in my mind at the same time and this just helped me realize that.

1) My main thing was the feeling/action
2) Then I was wondering if women should be shamed for feeling naturally good in a different way. Because sometimes people don't talk about the good feelings unless they are worried that they are doing something wrong. So I was wondering why is it bad to say that if it's natural.
3) Last I had my "but what if it's not" thoughts.

That's why I was trying to understand the science behind it all because what I'd read thus far was really over the top. It had some good reasons for saying it was sexual but then it went way over there into what the heck land. But I didn't take it as the same kind of sexual that most people think about when you say that word. But it left me very, very confused.

I know I didn't communicate that because I just realized the full picture of my thoughts from your post. That might not make sense but my mind jumps from thought to thought to thought and sometimes I mix it all together without saying that's what I am doing.
After reading this, it sounds to me like perhaps you just need to work on separating any sexual connotations you have with the breasts from breastfeeding. Thing can feel good without feeling good in that way. KWIM?
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#71 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:10 PM
 
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That is helpful. Thank you.

See, I think I had a few different things going on in my mind at the same time and this just helped me realize that.

1) My main thing was the feeling/action
2) Then I was wondering if women should be shamed for feeling naturally good in a different way. Because sometimes people don't talk about the good feelings unless they are worried that they are doing something wrong. So I was wondering why is it bad to say that if it's natural.
3) Last I had my "but what if it's not" thoughts.

That's why I was trying to understand the science behind it all because what I'd read thus far was really over the top. It had some good reasons for saying it was sexual but then it went way over there into what the heck land. But I didn't take it as the same kind of sexual that most people think about when you say that word. But it left me very, very confused.

I know I didn't communicate that because I just realized the full picture of my thoughts from your post. That might not make sense but my mind jumps from thought to thought to thought and sometimes I mix it all together without saying that's what I am doing.
I am just curious why you are researching something that is unlikely to happen? Most people don't get any type of sexual feeling at all from nursing. Most times my thoughts are, are you don't yet! (hehe at 2.5 I am!) Usually as you nurse your nipples get kinda hardened off so you don't feel all that much, until they bite you.
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#72 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:11 PM
 
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Men urinate with the same organ they have intercourse with. We aren't confusing the two different functions and we don't deny the importance of each separate function. Penis' are undeniably sexual, they are just as undeniable used for the transportation of waste. As long as the functions aren't happening at the same time no one really has a problem with it.

Why can't breasts serve two functions as well and why can't we celebrate both functions as special, wonderful, and necessary. My breasts are an important part of foreplay in our house. They are also the source of my children's nurturing and nutrition for the first part of their lives. I can except both functions as wholly separate and important.

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#73 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:14 PM
 
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I guess I don't see why you are so concerned about something is not too likely to occur.
Because I read a very long article that seemed to be well referenced that said that BF is a sexual act and that women should not be ashamed by that and they should embrace it for the health of their babies and for themselves. However, as the article went on , it started to say some things that were quite disturbing to me. So I would never, ever share that article with anyone.

Then I started reading about women who felt guilty for whatever reasons they had, and the terrible reactions people had to it.

Then I thought back to the science that was in that article and I began to wonder if they couldn't help it then why were they getting blamed.

Then I started thinking about the feelings. Then my mind was trying to process all of this. On top of not understanding why people nursed when there was no milk (thanks for the explanations on that!)

So that's why. People say it's not sexual but sometimes sources say it is (but I don't think they mean it like that, they mean it in a different way that people dont talk about) so I was trying to sort it all out.
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#74 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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That is helpful. Thank you.

See, I think I had a few different things going on in my mind at the same time and this just helped me realize that.

1) My main thing was the feeling/action
2) Then I was wondering if women should be shamed for feeling naturally good in a different way. Because sometimes people don't talk about the good feelings unless they are worried that they are doing something wrong. So I was wondering why is it bad to say that if it's natural.
3) Last I had my "but what if it's not" thoughts.

That's why I was trying to understand the science behind it all because what I'd read thus far was really over the top. It had some good reasons for saying it was sexual but then it went way over there into what the heck land. But I didn't take it as the same kind of sexual that most people think about when you say that word. But it left me very, very confused.

I know I didn't communicate that because I just realized the full picture of my thoughts from your post. That might not make sense but my mind jumps from thought to thought to thought and sometimes I mix it all together without saying that's what I am doing.

Wow, it sounds like you might have to work through some things about the breasts and sexuality in general. I think by coming from a mindset that the primary purpose of a woman's breast is to provide sexual interaction with her partner, you are seeing breastfeeding as some strange sexual act.

I would be very, very confused, too.

This reminds me of when my 4yo sister learned that my baby was going to come out of my vagina. She got a horrified look on her face and said, "but peepee comes out there! the baby will get peepee on her head!"

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#75 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:19 PM
 
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Because I read a very long article that seemed to be well referenced that said that BF is a sexual act and that women should not be ashamed by that and they should embrace it for the health of their babies and for themselves. However, as the article went on , it started to say some things that were quite disturbing to me. So I would never, ever share that article with anyone.

Then I started reading about women who felt guilty for whatever reasons they had, and the terrible reactions people had to it.

Then I thought back to the science that was in that article and I began to wonder if they couldn't help it then why were they getting blamed.

Then I started thinking about the feelings. Then my mind was trying to process all of this. On top of not understanding why people nursed when there was no milk (thanks for the explanations on that!)

So that's why. People say it's not sexual but sometimes sources say it is (but I don't think they mean it like that, they mean it in a different way that people dont talk about) so I was trying to sort it all out.
Well, I am pretty big on citing your sources, so naturally I am going to ask you to post it. If you feel that you can't, then you might want to evaluate the legitimacy of the source in the first place. Perhaps posting it for others to read would allow people to show you the potential flaws in the very article that has you so worked up about this topic in the first place.

I thought you said you knew women with this problem? Not that you had only read about it.
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#76 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:20 PM
 
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Because I read a very long article that seemed to be well referenced that said that BF is a sexual act and that women should not be ashamed by that and they should embrace it for the health of their babies and for themselves. However, as the article went on , it started to say some things that were quite disturbing to me. So I would never, ever share that article with anyone.

Then I started reading about women who felt guilty for whatever reasons they had, and the terrible reactions people had to it.

Then I thought back to the science that was in that article and I began to wonder if they couldn't help it then why were they getting blamed.

Then I started thinking about the feelings. Then my mind was trying to process all of this. On top of not understanding why people nursed when there was no milk (thanks for the explanations on that!)

So that's why. People say it's not sexual but sometimes sources say it is (but I don't think they mean it like that, they mean it in a different way that people dont talk about) so I was trying to sort it all out.
I think that article was written by a quack.

Yes some people have been known to feel sexual nursing. It's rare. Yes there have been people who have gone to their doctors for help and been turned into CPS. Because of this.. people who do have this problem generally suck it up and deal with it.. because there is no help.

The majority of people do not believe breast feeding to be sexual nor do they have any sexual feelings while breast feeding. Anyone who states otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about.

The point of this thread however was not that breast feeding is sexual.. it was that the OP didn't feel breast should be sexual period.
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#77 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:21 PM
 
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This reminds me of when my 4yo sister learned that my baby was going to come out of my vagina. She got a horrified look on her face and said, "but peepee comes out there! the baby will get peepee on her head!"
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#78 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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Well, I am pretty big on citing your sources, so naturally I am going to ask you to post it. If you feel that you can't, then you might want to evaluate the legitimacy of the source in the first place. Perhaps posting it for others to read would allow people to show you the potential flaws in the very article that has you so worked up about this topic in the first place.

I thought you said you knew women with this problem? Not that you had only read about it.
That's why I read about it. I wanted to know more.

I read it on my phone so I didn't save it, thank goodness. It's probably in my history though.

I don't really have the stomach to search for it again and I wouldn't do that to anyone because I don't think any bf mom should read it. Really and truly that type of thing should not be allowed because though it wasn't trying to place blame, it did not help the situation at all and it made me physically sick. No, I would never tell anyone to read anything like that so please don't.
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#79 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:31 PM
 
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That's why I read about it. I wanted to know more.

I read it on my phone so I didn't save it, thank goodness. It's probably in my history though.

I don't really have the stomach to search for it again and I wouldn't do that to anyone because I don't think any bf mom should read it. Really and truly that type of thing should not be allowed because though it wasn't trying to place blame, it did not help the situation at all and it made me physically sick. No, I would never tell anyone to read anything like that so please don't.
I am confused. If you don't consider this an accurate source, why are you asking mom's here about sexual feelings while BFing?
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#80 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:32 PM
 
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That's why I read about it. I wanted to know more.

I read it on my phone so I didn't save it, thank goodness. It's probably in my history though.

I don't really have the stomach to search for it again and I wouldn't do that to anyone because I don't think any bf mom should read it. Really and truly that type of thing should not be allowed because though it wasn't trying to place blame, it did not help the situation at all and it made me physically sick. No, I would never tell anyone to read anything like that so please don't.
But you can't possibly expect to have a civilized conversation with anyone regarding this when you have ideas in your head from an article that you won't share with everyone else. That's a little like going to a book discussion when only one person has actually read the book. You can't debate the merits of it when you are the only who has read it. We are telling you those things aren't really true and you don't want to believe us based on that article. I don't know what anyone could say to make you think otherwise.
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#81 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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That article wasn't in The Onion was it?
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#82 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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If the nipples only purpose is breast feeding then why do men have nipples? Why do some men get sexual stimulation from their nipples being played with? Many men's nipples respond to stimulation, cold, ect. in much the same way a woman's does. They obviously can't nurse a baby. Therefore there must be some purpose to these reactions outside of nursing. Nipples are sexual. They are for breastfeeding. I guess I have no problem whatsoever with them having a dual purpose.

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#83 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:43 PM
 
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We are telling you those things aren't really true and you don't want to believe us based on that article.
Everybody didn't say exactly that early on but no it wasn't in the Onion. I wish. I would have noticed.

Ok this is a useful thread and I don't want it to get closed so I've gotten my answers. We can get back to whether or not breasts are dual purpose parts
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#84 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 05:47 PM
 
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I suspect this is what you read (WARNING: IT'S SERIOUSLY MESSED UP!). You need to realize that this appears to be something that is just circulating the internet and is not posted anywhere on a legit site or published by any reputable news organization. A search of the Dr's name who supposedly wrote this yields NOTHING at all except for message board posts of this garbage article. As far as I am concerned, this was a joke that someone did a good job of getting circulated. You really should just put it out of your mind IMO.
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Kelly, you really should put a warning on that link. I don't think it is the same link as it sounds different in nature to what hiswife was talking about.. but it is just as disturbing as the one she talked about.

And I agree with you, that was not written by an academic nor was it edited or proofed there are too many errors in there.
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#86 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 06:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Kelly, you really should put a warning on that link. I don't think it is the same link as it sounds different in nature to what hiswife was talking about.. but it is just as disturbing as the one she talked about.

And I agree with you, that was not written by an academic nor was it edited or proofed there are too many errors in there.
Ok! I didn't even think to do that because it sounded so absurd to me. Sorry to anyone who may have read it and been freaked!
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#87 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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hi,

i didn't read the article, and atm don't have good signal, so i won't.

There's other authors who write about the BF experience as the basic sexuality of humans. Someone mentioned the release of oxitocin being present in both lovemaking and breastfeeding. I do believe BF is sexual, but I understand the aversion some ppl have to this idea if we are from the mindset that sexuality is only falocentric.
And this patriarchal society has done a lot to instill the taboo of incest, when the sexual experience of bf has nothing to do with penetration or getting off.
i had these feelings while bf my baby, and reading the work of Casilda Rodriganez i understood that what i was feeling wasn't wrong or creepy, just natural and normal.
while bf, both bodies pulsate with desire, desire for life, and the pleasure is simply in the giving and receiving warmt and love(oxitocyn here, see Odent's work "the scientification of love")
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#88 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 08:59 PM
 
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As for the gyno, that's not even the same motions, at least not from my experience. The hands and tools don't do the same things as other acts. Though I'm sure some women might have reactions to that, but I can't say that I would be able to make those comparisons. Whereas on the other hand, suckling is suckling.
i don't agree that suckling is suckling. the way DD latches on to my breast is in no way similar to anything my DH has done sexually. although i have asked him to try to unclog a plugged duct (after using the pump first) ...and well, he couldn't latch on right for the life of him, so that tells you--it's not the same act in the least.

ETA:

more generally, though, i think that since breastfeeding is hormonally PLEASURABLE (and probably affects dopamine/seratonin levels), it can give similar feelings to sex. but it is not arousing in the least, not for me anyway. i mean, exercise can give you a rush, too. but you don't see people debating whether exercising (publicly or privately) is sexual.

dissertating wife of Boo, mama of one "mookie" lovin' 2 year old girl! intactlact:: CTA until 7/10 FF 1501dc
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#89 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You guys have brought up way too many good points for me to quote here. But thank you. You've given me a lot of things to think about. I have certainly concluded that my issues with breasts as sex objects are simply that : MY ISSUES. I think if DH was more into breasts in the bedroom, this would be a big issue in our relationship. As it stands, it is just an icky feeling on my part...

But some of your points are really starting to sink in for me. Breasts can be sexual and that can be OK. It's still hard for me to believe that, but I think it'll take time and my own dealing with feelings.

FYI... I did NOT click on the article that was posted. I didn't think it would be psychologically healthy for me to read it! LOL! I want to keep nursing DS as long as possible, so I don't need something that may reinforce my fears and concerns.

Anyway... I just wanted to thanks everyone for sharing so thoughtfully on this tough subject. The talk turned into something other than what I intended, but it was all very interesting nonetheless. I have a of great advice and ideas to think about, and maybe I can try to let go of this "hang-up" of mine.

Thanks again.

::
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#90 of 98 Old 05-31-2009, 09:22 PM
 
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That feeling of horror will pass as your hormones change, I've had that kind of feeling too and not just about breasts, lol. You'll probably always retain your new perspective about what breasts are for though and that's a good thing.

I haven't read thru all the posts but has anyone shared the story Katherine Dettwyler shares in one of her books - where she tells women in one of the cultures she's visiting that men in America like to incorporate breasts into intimate play, they ROFLMBO about the men in America that act like babies nursing!!
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