Is my daughter “happy to starve”? & DH wants me to supplement with formula. - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 28 Old 07-20-2011, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Here’s my timeline of my growth-stress:

 

Birth: 6#4oz. Natural birth, BFed within an hour of birth. LOTS of skin-to-skin time & BFing.

 

2 weeks: 6#4oz --> I FREAKED, although doc said ‘don’t worry!’ She was peeing & pooping ALL.THE.TIME & my DS had gained 2 whole pounds in 2 weeks, so this worried me.

 

We used our bread scale over the next several weeks at home (had to put her in a huge mixing bowl. Hah!) & her weight was going up.

 

8 weeks: I forget #s, but she’s 5th % weight, 15th % length. I still think that’s small, but doc says ‘don’t worry! She’s staying on her same curve. She’s just a little peanut.’

All the while, she still pees and poops ALL THE TIME – BFs about 12X per day, seems content except 5-10PM when she SCREAMS unless latched on. (Doc tells me this is colic.)

 

12 weeks: I take her to the doc JUST because I’m paranoid about weight gain AND she starts sleeping longer & longer stretches. The day I took her in, she had slept 12 consecutive hours!

Doc says she’s 9# 9oz, still 5th percentile. She's gained .7 oz per day - and she SHOULD be gaining between .5 and 1 oz daily, so she's doing well. She was also doing well 'standing' -bearing her weight. doc said she doesn’t expect that until 4 mos. Doc said enjoy her, stop worrying. & there's no problem if she sleeps long stretches - she'll make up for it.

 

OH THE IRONY… I FINALLY STOP WORRYING at this point. Plus she’s FINALLY starting to outgrow some size newborn clothes! AND – she rolled over from belly to back at around 3.5 mos - again, she is ahead on milestones! She started laughing around that time too and the evening colic is beginning to get much better. She still poops & pees all the time & BFs around 12 X per day. (hourly during the day to make up for lots of sleep at night.)

Re: milestones, just prior to 4 mos she also started blowing raspberries and discovered her vocal chords, so she’s quite vocal. She also brings her hands together (I had forgotten that milestone, but pedi asked at the 4 MO check up & now that I’m looking for it, I see it too.)

 

SO, I take her in for her 4 month check up. 6 weeks have gone by since the last visit.

SHE HAS FALLEN OFF THE CHART for weight. 10# 7 oz. So only gained 14 oz over 6 weeks – which averages .33 oz per day. (less than the .5-1 oz per day she should gain on average.)


However, she gained 2 whole inches in length & jumped up to 50th % for length. She’s also gained in head circumference.

Doc says, “Probably not much to worry about, but go see an LC and come back in 4 weeks.”

 

DH freaks out. “I don’t want her under-nourished at a time of critical brain development.”

Of course the idea that exclusive BFing could be DAMAGING to her brain seems preposterous to me. By EVERY OTHER factor, she’s thriving – and she doesn’t LOOK the least bit skinny.

 

So I met with 2 LCs even though I HATED them when I met with them for my DS 3 years ago. <sigh> I feel now like they have a check list of problems & a check list of causes & simply CAN'T consider anything outside the lists. Like lactation-consultation-by-numbers.

I was told, "Nipple pain is due to a bad latch" over & over & over again with my DS. They’d say, “So let me check your latch.”

I’d latch him, they’d say, “That looks good!”

“Uh, OK, well why am I in so much pain?”

Reply would be something absolutely asinine like, “LOOK, you MOVED! Now it slipped! Don’t move!” (I kid you not.)

 

Now the LC suggested DD was having trouble 'transferring milk' and/or I have a low supply. Excuse me, both ideas seem absurd to me! As for transferring milk – why would she SUDDENLY develop that problem when up UNTIL 12 weeks, her weight gain had been fine? Second of all, I am away from DD one day per week & I’m able to get 4, sometimes 5 oz per pumping session. That, aside from the fact that DD poops & pees all the time & her weight gain was adequate until 12 weeks- low supply also seems highly unlikely.

(But, there must be nothing else on their check list for “low weight gain.”)

 

So I told her, per above, low supply & lack of transferring seem unlikely to me. So she jumps back to latch! She says that around 3-4 mos, the influence of the postpartum hormones dies out –my hormones should be “back to normal” (LOL, whatever, I don’t feel normal! Besides, anyone who uses “back to normal” to describe the hormonal status of a BFing woman is quite ignorant. BFing has a massive influence on hormones!) Anyway, she says that with the influence of PP hormones, DD could have had a bad latch but still got enough milk, but now that the PP hormonal influence is no longer helping my supply, the fact that her latch isn’t (hasn’t been) good enough could result in me having inadequate supply.

 

In my opinion, the main Q for the LC to ask should have been, “WHAT CHANGED since 6/1?” Her weight gain had been fine until then – 12 entire weeks of exclusive BFing and her weight gain was adequate (not high, but adequate – she stayed on the 5th percentile curve.)

 

So … “WHAT CHANGED?” should have been the first question to ask. And as it happens, TWO things changed -both her sleeping longer, and me building a freezer stash --> removing some of my daily milk output & NOT subsequently giving it to her within the next few days of removing it – therefore my daily (& weekly) output was greater than her daily intake.

So I decided to:

  1. Wake her up every 4-5 hours
  2. Feed her my freezer stash I had collected throughout June

 

Her weight then went up over 7 oz in the past 5 days (both weights 100% naked, although on 2 different scales.)

I’m also considering pumping POST-feedings to boost supply, doing breast compressions, and trying to get her to take BOTH breasts at each feeding instead of just one.

 

Called doc back, talked to someone else at pedi’s office (first doc was out), she said I might have low calorie milk. But also agreed – don’t stress! It’s not like she went from 50th % to falling off the chart. She even tells me to NOT wake her up at night – let her sleep.

 

DH still wants me to supplement with formula. I’m not opposed to it in PRICIPLE – let’s get real here, if she has ONE bottle a day of formula starting at 4 mos old, and is therefore still 98% BF, that is not going to be detrimental to her health! But the problem is… I WOULD THEN HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MY SUPPLY [even MORE]! Then, all day long, I’d continue to obsess about it killing my supply!

 

Plus, if my supply now is inadequate – and I give her 4 oz formula daily to supplement, that could DECREASE my supply, so if
-----Meg’s BM + 4 oz formula = DD’s daily needs----

Then the giving of the formula could make “--Meg’s BM--” go DOWN, so then we still wouldn’t be meeting her needs! See what I mean?

 

UGHHHHH! I just want to try to increase my supply first and keep a close eye on her weight before I step down the path of supplementing. Doc agrees with me. But I read here yesterday someone had seen a baby “happy to starve” so I’m still a little paranoid……….

 

So if you got through all this, LOL, thanks for reading.

 

BFing both kids has been one of the single hardest things I've ever done. And here I thought the first few weeks were the rough patch & once you were good there, it would be smooth sailing. I'm really frustrated.

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#2 of 28 Old 07-20-2011, 11:36 AM
 
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Yep, breastfeeding is one of the hardest things I've done EVER. And yes, my first DS was "happy to starve" - peeing, pooping and apparently not hungry even though he wasn't gaining. Hang in there, mama.
On average, breastfed babies gain 5-7 ounces a week in the first four months and most double birthweight by three to four months. I think you're on the right track pumping after feeds and feeding her the pumped milk. You could consider formula if she doesn't start gaining rapidly.
If she's otherwise a healthy baby with no metabolic problems, I don't see what it COULD be other than either not enough milk or a baby having trouble extracting it from the breast because of a tongue tie, for example, which would hurt mom's supply, too. From what I've read, prolactin levels do drop several months post-partum and that's when problems can arise if baby isn't transferring well. A thyroid problem could also be an issue. The book "Making More Milk" has good info on all this stuff.
The only way to really get to the bottom of it would be to do 24 hours of test feeds with a sensitive scale to see how much she's getting and/or pump and bottle feed for 24 hours to see how much you're making. If she's taking in a lot less than you pump, I'd suspect tongue tie or a palate issue. If it's about the same, I'd start domperidone and keep pumping after feeds to boost your supply.
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#3 of 28 Old 07-20-2011, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan73 View Post

And yes, my first DS was "happy to starve" - peeing, pooping and apparently not hungry even though he wasn't gaining. 


But was he not gaining from the beginning?

 

 

"If she's otherwise a healthy baby with no metabolic problems, I don't see what it COULD be other than either not enough milk or a baby having trouble extracting it from the breast because of a tongue tie, for example, which would hurt mom's supply, too."

 

But I can't see how a baby could be gaining adequately up until 12 weeks and THEN have a problem like that (transferring/ tongue tie) pop up. Not trying to be argumentative, it just really makes no sense to me! & my previous experience with LCs told me that when instincts "call BS," so to speak, I ought to listen. (I didn't before and just figured they knew better than me, which was a huge mistake.)

 

 

"A thyroid problem could also be an issue."

 

Thyroid for HER you mean? Actually my DH & his Mom both have thyroid problems.

 

 

"The only way to really get to the bottom of it would be to do 24 hours of test feeds with a sensitive scale to see how much she's getting and/or pump and bottle feed for 24 hours to see how much you're making."

 

I know, without a doubt, that the pump doesn't get as much out of me as she could. So pumping exclusively for 24 hours wouldn't tell me how many oz she was getting. I know this because if I don't do breast compressions while pumping, the flow stops. Whereas with DD I never bother with compressions (Well, now I've started back up, but didn't used to.)

 

 

"From what I've read, prolactin levels do drop several months post-partum and that's when problems can arise "

 

Actually, my supply with DS dropped around 4 mos or so - but I was working 4 days a week then & it dropped just a BIT so that my pumping output wasn't enough to meet 100% of his needs while in daycare. He generally needed only one bottle of formula per day at most for the 4 days he was in daycare, & the 3 days per week he was with me, he was content without supplementing. DD is away from me only ONE day per week, and considering the baby is more effective than the pump, I didn't expect to experience problems again at 4 mos.

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#4 of 28 Old 07-20-2011, 12:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post

 

Her weight then went up over 7 oz in the past 5 days (both weights 100% naked, although on 2 different scales.)

I’m also considering pumping POST-feedings to boost supply, doing breast compressions, and trying to get her to take BOTH breasts at each feeding instead of just one.

 

I had similar issues.  What I did was to nurse as long as DS wanted, wait an hour, then pump on both sides.  For a period of time, I had to do that at every single feeding and I would give him the bottle I pumped after he nursed.  So I would nurse, feed him bottle I had pumped a couple hours earlier, then pump again one hour after he nursed.  Within about a month, I dropped down and I did an extra pumping in the morning and saved it and gave it to him in a bottle after his last feed at night which was when my supply was lowest.  Also, I could not go more than 5ish hours without tanking my supply... So I had to get up at night and feed, although it wasn't really an issue because I had a baby who didn't sleep.  Once he was older though...around 15 months and I cut the night time feed so he would go 8 or so hours, my supply tanked even though he nursed every 3 or so hours during the day.  Some people can do longer intervals at night without problem, but I couldn't. 

 

Pumping will not give you an accurate picture of what she is eating BUT, there are scales that measure to the gram.  We rented one from the local children's hospital and I would put DS on the scale before and after each session for a while until he started gaining weight.  I would be able to see exactly how many grams he took and that info was really valuable in figuring out what was going on with him.  Good luck!  I think your babe will probably be just fine if you are able to pump post feedings and give her a bottle of pumped milk.  The fact that she gained more than an ounce a day is pretty good evidence for your hubby that your breastmilk is enough if you pump. 

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#5 of 28 Old 07-20-2011, 12:27 PM
 
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DD was born 6lbs 10 oz. I had pain breastfeeding her, but could never figure out why. she gained great at first, climbing up to the 50th percentile at 3 months, then her weigh gain started to slow. at 6 months she was 13lbs 4 oz, at 9 months she was 13lbs 9 oz. then we started pushing solids and she started gaining 1 lb a month. (throughout all of this she was happy, seemingly healthy, ahead on milestones, etc.) I found out when she was 21 months she has a posterior tongue-tie. so yes, gain can be fine up to a point and then drop off. 

 

it sounds like what you're doing is helping, so I would stick with that as long as it is. and I would keep waking her at night, it's hard to keep your supply up when going 12 hours without nursing at night. (if you don't want to wake her all the way you could try dream-feeding)


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#6 of 28 Old 07-20-2011, 01:43 PM
 
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I've also see a baby do fine for 4 or 6 months (and even 9 months one time!) and then drop off the charts from a tongue-tie. It usually happens when Mom has good supply or feeds often. Once Mom's supply regulates to demand, and let down is not as vigorous, baby doesn't get as much milk from the breast, supply down-regulates, etc etc etc.

 

Newman also has other reasons for slow weight gain after good gain here.

 

Hope you get to the bottom of it (and get help from the LCs not just cook-book responses!)

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#7 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Newman also has other reasons for slow weight gain after good gain here.

 

Hope you get to the bottom of it (and get help from the LCs not just cook-book responses!)

 

"cook book responses" - good way to phrase it! exactly!

 

WAAAAAAAA! I looked through that list you linked - not ONE, not ONE of those things applies to me AT ALL - not in the least! Except:

"3. You have been trying to stretch out the feedings or “train” the baby to sleep through the night."

 

Well, I'm not "training" her - she did it on her own & I followed her lead. Actually at first I wasn't thrilled because I was leaking & waking up uncomfortable after 8 hours or so. But 2 different docs at my pedi's office said it's fine & no need to wake her at this age.

 

THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'm really thinking that has to be what it is - the sleeping longer stretches - that my supply couldn't handle that. I used to wake up ready to burst after 8 hours, but eventually I could go 9 hours or more & not be uncomfortable. Of course, I believe I've read that not feeling really full does not mean your supply has dropped - but still, I also know BFing often is crucial to maintain supply. Given that BFing regularly is so crucial to maintaining supply, how can NOT BFing at all for 10+ hours daily NOT be detrimental to supply???

 

Also, apparently that's NOT true that prolactin levels drop 3-4 mos PP:

http://www.kellymom.com/bf/normal/prolactin-levels.html

 

 

Typical baseline serum prolactin levels in women References
Not pregnant, not lactating < 25 ng/mL Walker p. 65, Riordan p. 76, Serri et al. p. 575
Pregnant, at term 200 ng/mL Walker p. 65
Lactating, 7 days postpartum 100 ng/mL Riordan p. 76
Lactating, 3 months postpartum 100 ng/mL Walker p. 65
Lactating, menstruation not started before 180 days 110 ng/mL Riordan p. 76
Lactating, menstruation started before 180 days 70 ng/mL

 

I'm not menstruating.

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#8 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 08:22 AM
 
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I've also see a baby do fine for 4 or 6 months (and even 9 months one time!) and then drop off the charts from a tongue-tie. It usually happens when Mom has good supply or feeds often. Once Mom's supply regulates to demand, and let down is not as vigorous, baby doesn't get as much milk from the breast, supply down-regulates, etc etc etc.

Yes, that. When your supply regulates ~14 weeks, your baby needs to put in more effort to get that milk. It could be tongue-tie, low muscle tone, dysphagia, etc. It happens, but I'd bet that's not the issue here.

I have to say that from the information you've posted, I see no reason for concern at this point. Keep doing what you're doing, and encourage your DD to nurse more frequently or for a tiny bit longer, etc. Wake her up for dream feeds. Babies do not starve themselves, but they may need a little extra encouragement to eat enough to grow and not just maintain.

Your LC should do a pre and post-feed weight check if there are suppy or transfer concerns. Don't go nuts trying to boost your supply unless you know or truly, truly suspect a problem, because oversupply is not good, either. Sleeping longer stretches won't tank your supply, it will just redistribute when milk is make, in response to your DD (presumably) consuming more in each feed as her tummy has grown from the tablespoons it could hold in the beginning! orngbiggrin.gif

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#9 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 09:59 AM
 
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Sleeping longer stretches won't tank your supply, it will just redistribute when milk is make, in response to your DD (presumably) consuming more in each feed as her tummy has grown from the tablespoons it could hold in the beginning! orngbiggrin.gif



That was definitely *not* my experience.  Sleeping longer stretches majorly tanked my supply and it did not redistribute.  I have had two LCs tell me this isn't uncommon at all. 

 

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#10 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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That was definitely *not* my experience.  Sleeping longer stretches majorly tanked my supply and it did not redistribute.  I have had two LCs tell me this isn't uncommon at all. 

 


Logic & common sense is telling me it can hurt supply. Maybe it's not a guarantee, but, again, logic & common sense tell me that - if trying to "schedule" your baby by stretching out feedings to every 3 hours during the day can hurt supply, then letting baby go 10 hours at night certainly could be detrimental. & I've FINALLY learned now to trust my logic & common sense - especially if my logic goes against with LCs are saying, my logic tends to be correct. (Not to bash all LCs, but the ones at the hospital where I had my LOs are awful!)

 

Got a recommendation today for another LC from my doula, also a MW-in training & big birth advocate. This LC, many years experience (I think 30 years) & highly regarded agreed with my suspicions that long stretches of sleep are a problem.

 

Besides, "Sleeping through the night" is defined, I believe, as 5-6 hours. My DD was doing 10!! As the LC said, that's not normal and it COULD have a detrimental effect on supply.

 

Honestly, I would rather be sleep-deprived anyway than continue to cope with this horrific anxiety that I'm starving my daughter. It's torture. I'd also rather take back the pain of cracked nipples that I had with my DS! So I'm going to continue with waking her.

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#11 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 10:54 AM
 
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According to the recent book "The Breastfeeding Mother's Guide to Making More Milk" by Diana West and Lisa Marasco, baseline prolactin levels drop by as much as half at three months post-partum. They cite a study by Cox, Owens and Hartmann.
The book suggests that long periods without nursing (such as with sleep-training or scheduling feeds) can hurt supply:
"Mothers with abundant production and vigorously nursing babies may do well, but mothers with marginal supplies or babies with difficulties often do not. Even if all looks well in the beginning, a sudden drop-off in production can happen after a few months if an insufficient number of hormone receptors were established in the early weeks." - "Making More Milk" p. 81


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#12 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 11:20 AM
 
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This sounds quite similar to my DD, except she was born large.  

 

Birth 9#12oz

she gained quite well until about 4 months and was around 16 lbs at 4 months.  She only gained 8 oz from 4-6 months and then has gained slowly since then.  She was 18 lbs at her 10 month visit. puts her at 30% for weight (she is 80th for lenght).  My doc doesn't seem to have concern and she is hitting all milestones.

 

Sounds like your DD was born small and is just slow on the curve.  

 

My other DD was GIANT, 20 lbs by 4 months, so I know it is hard when you have them on both sides and are comparing growth to your other child.


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#13 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 12:24 PM
 
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My DD was a slow gainer and a great sleeper, and we did wake her up to feed. Yes, milk supply changes at around 3 months.

But nothing you're saying here points to low supply! You say she's only taking one breast, when a hungry baby would finish one and likely scream for more. SHE is sleeping a ton on her own; a hungry baby doesn't sleep that well. I really, really think your goal should be to offer more often and to really harass her to eat more in every feed: keep her awake, offer more throughout the day, etc.

As mothers, we're so quick to take the blame when our kiddos aren't gaining. But you have to remember that breastfeeding involves 2 people. I *get* the supply concerns, I really do (I'm in the same place myself with my below-the-chart 15mo), but I'm just not seeing low supply in what you've posted here.

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#14 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 12:54 PM
 
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Something else I just thought of.  I used to work with speech therapists who worked with kids with feeding issues.  I had forgotten this, but I actually took my son to see a speech therapist when he was around a month old for latch/feeding issues and she was by FAR way more helpful with nursing than the LCs I worked with (three...two who were pretty awful and one who was fantastic). 

 

Anyhow, I would really suggest having a speech therapist (SLP) who specializes in feeding evaluate her.   I used to interpret for the speech therapists and families on my caseload and saw a lot of different issues.  One was that sometimes the babies would just tire out and not want to nurse any more, though they were still hungry and not getting enough calories from nursing.  Bottles are a lot easier than breastfeeding, so I am wondering if tiring out could be your daughter's issue. It definitely was with my son, and the speech therapist was the one who gave me the confidence to do the bottles after breastfeeding so my son would start gaining weight.  Once we made some adjustments and got him gaining weight, I was able to ditch the pumping and bottles and go back to just nursing.  I know some kids are smaller than others but it sounds like if your DD is taking the bottles from your freezer stash after nursing that she *is* hungry.  Lucky (or unlucky) for you, she just maybe isn't one to complain a ton about it. 

 

A speech therapist will likely be able to see your daughter once or twice and give you a much better idea of what is going on.  I only had to go one time with my son, and insurance covered it because it was for feeding, though I needed a script from my pediatrician.  They will usually just fax one to the speech therapist that the parents choose.  You can find one privately, or you could also go through your county's Early Intervention program, in which the evaluation would be free.  I'd be very clear that the eval was for feeding issues though and make sure they had experience with that because not all EI programs have SLPs well trained in feeding. 

 

Also, for a period my son was doing well, and then he dropped off.  My supply wasn't so much low as it was dropping because he wasn't working hard enough to transfer the milk as he was tiring out, had a poor latch, etc.  Her latch might be dropping your supply.  Early on, I was so engorged that the fact he wasn't sucking well didn't really matter...the milk was just pouring into his mouth regardless.  Later on when my hormones settled down, and he wasn't sucking properly, he started to lose weight.  Good luck! 

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Oh, and I wanted to add that the fact that she sleeps well doesn't mean she isn't hungry... I think she is hungry or she wouldn't be interested in drinking your freezer stash.  Fatigue might be the reason she interested in nursing on both sides and the reason she is sleeping a lot.  I'd want to try to find out if there is a reason she is getting tired quickly...maybe tongue tie or something else making it more challenging for her to nurse. 

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Quote:
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Oh, and I wanted to add that the fact that she sleeps well doesn't mean she isn't hungry... I think she is hungry or she wouldn't be interested in drinking your freezer stash.  Fatigue might be the reason she interested in nursing on both sides and the reason she is sleeping a lot.  I'd want to try to find out if there is a reason she is getting tired quickly...maybe tongue tie or something else making it more challenging for her to nurse. 



I completely agree with this.

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#17 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 02:34 PM
 
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My daughter has fatigue issues as well: so she eats every 2 hours, even now at 15 months. I'm all for seeing an SLP if there is a need for it (we've seen ours weekly for months).

But honestly, mama, I think it's a bit premature to diagnose tongue-tie, low supply, or thyroid problems. I think you're doing absolutely the right thing: you're following your baby's lead but also your gut. Definitely check in with that new LC, and insist on a pre and post-feed weight check to find out exactly how much she is getting during a feeding. (just one would be informative: 24 hours of tests seems excessive!) I think that will be helpful in figuring out what's going on. smile.gif

And hang in there... it's so stressful when your baby isn't growing like you think they should!

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#18 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post

Oh, and I wanted to add that the fact that she sleeps well doesn't mean she isn't hungry... I think she is hungry or she wouldn't be interested in drinking your freezer stash.  Fatigue might be the reason she interested in nursing on both sides and the reason she is sleeping a lot. 


She's sleeping a lot at night, but I never said she was sleeping a lot overall. She'll take maybe ONE good nap for 2-3 hours during the day, & a few other snoozes post-nursing (still in my lap) of maybe 20 min, but that's it. She's awake a lot during the 11-12 hours she's not having her nighttime sleep.

 

She's also not the LEAST BIT fatigued or sleeping during the daytime. Quite the contrary.

 

"the fact that she sleeps well doesn't mean she isn't hungry"

 

So how DO you know a baby is hungry? How do you know a baby is getting enough to eat?

  • You count wet & dirty diapers - DD EXCEEDS these guidelines
  • You evaluate how they act, are they fatigued / lethargic? NOPE! That's not my DD
  • Evaluate milestones - DD exceeds those too
  • Measure other growth factors - DD jumped up from 15th to 50th percentiles for length & gained in head circumference
  • You LOOK at baby - DD doesn't look skinny, while she doesn't have big rolls of fat, she looks good & healthy

 

Seriously - what is the moral of the story here?! Take your baby to be weighed at least every 2 weeks for 6 months+? That's the only moral I take from this story. You can be "starving" your baby and not know it!!!

CONSTANTLY VIGILANCE!  NEVER RELAX! Unless you bottle feed (whether eBM or formula) YOU MUST WORRY ABOUT WEIGHT GAIN.

 

Is that really the reality of life as a BFing mama? Cuz that's what it looks like from here.

 

Awesome. That's fantastic. (As posted in another thread, I'm feeling super bitter today.)

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#19 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 02:44 PM
 
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 I'm all for seeing an SLP if there is a need for it (we've seen ours weekly for months).

But honestly, mama, I think it's a bit premature to diagnose tongue-tie, low supply, or thyroid problems.

I don't mean to get snarky, especially with a mod ;), but none of us can determine if a SLP would be helpful over the internet.  An SLP couldn't determine this over the phone.  The only way to find out, is to take the baby to see the SLP.

 

I don't think it is premature to diagnose tongue-tie or low supply or anything else.  They clip tongues at a week old and this baby is a few months old.  This baby is hungry and not gaining weight, and mom is stressssssed out over it.  I would be too.  The quicker she finds out what is going on, and it sounds like something is going on, the quicker baby can be eating what she needs and everyone can be happy and healthy. 

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#20 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 02:53 PM
 
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I agree... this mama is stressed out, but gently, internet diagnosing is just making it worse!

Her doctor says her DD is fine. She's meeting all milestones, showing NO signs of hunger (unless I missed that in one of her posts?), growing in height and head circum. and has nice fat rolls. Where's the emergency? I just think it would be stressful to run all over town to LCs, SLPs, ENTs, etc. if there's no need to.

Honestly, her DD sounds like my first DD: great sleeper at night, non-napper, slow grower who is still on the lower end of the chart, but is a great eater. Yes, she needed extra "encouragement" for a while there, but she was well within the range of normal. This sounds normal to me. As opposed to my DD2, who is decidedly NOT normal.

But Meg, if you feel seeing an SLP or anyone else for that matter will help you feel better about all of this, go for it! orngbiggrin.gif

ETA: oh, and no snark taken! orngbiggrin.gif We're all just trying to help Meg out, and if we can give her a range of options, all the better! joy.gif

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#21 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MegBoz View Post


She's sleeping a lot at night, but I never said she was sleeping a lot overall. She'll take maybe ONE good nap for 2-3 hours during the day, & a few other snoozes post-nursing (still in my lap) of maybe 20 min, but that's it. She's awake a lot during the 11-12 hours she's not having her nighttime sleep.

 

She's also not the LEAST BIT fatigued or sleeping during the daytime. Quite the contrary.

 

"the fact that she sleeps well doesn't mean she isn't hungry"

 

So how DO you know a baby is hungry? How do you know a baby is getting enough to eat?

  • You count wet & dirty diapers - DD EXCEEDS these guidelines
  • You evaluate how they act, are they fatigued / lethargic? NOPE! That's not my DD
  • Evaluate milestones - DD exceeds those too
  • Measure other growth factors - DD jumped up from 15th to 50th percentiles for length & gained in head circumference
  • You LOOK at baby - DD doesn't look skinny, while she doesn't have big rolls of fat, she looks good & healthy

 

Seriously - what is the moral of the story here?! Take your baby to be weighed at least every 2 weeks for 6 months+? That's the only moral I take from this story. You can be "starving" your baby and not know it!!!

CONSTANTLY VIGILANCE!  NEVER RELAX! Unless you bottle feed (whether eBM or formula) YOU MUST WORRY ABOUT WEIGHT GAIN.

 

Is that really the reality of life as a BFing mama? Cuz that's what it looks like from here.

 

Awesome. That's fantastic. (As posted in another thread, I'm feeling super bitter today.)



Yikes.  My baby was hungry with plenty of wet/poopy diapers and his milestones were on track.  The moral of the story isn't hyper-vigilance.  You're the one posting your concerns asking for help. You're the one stating you're experiencing "horrific anxiety" and calling it "torture."  Myself and others are offering you ideas of solutions (ie. pumping, seeing an SLP, not going several hours at night without feeding, etc) to ease your "torture and horrific anxiety."  If what you want to be told is everything is fine, okay.   Do what you like.  Your responses have been downright rude.  I'm outta here.  I hope for your baby's sake, you are able to figure things out.  If not, your husband's original idea of formula feeding might not be such a bad idea.  A mother's mental health is an important part of caring for an infant. 

 

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#22 of 28 Old 07-21-2011, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mosaic View Post

I agree... this mama is stressed out, but gently, internet diagnosing is just making it worse!

Her doctor says her DD is fine. She's meeting all milestones, showing NO signs of hunger (unless I missed that in one of her posts?), growing in height and head circum. and has nice fat rolls. Where's the emergency? I just think it would be stressful to run all over town to LCs, SLPs, ENTs, etc. if there's no need to.

Honestly, her DD sounds like my first DD: great sleeper at night, non-napper, slow grower who is still on the lower end of the chart, but is a great eater. Yes, she needed extra "encouragement" for a while there, but she was well within the range of normal. This sounds normal to me. As opposed to my DD2, who is decidedly NOT normal.

But Meg, if you feel seeing an SLP or anyone else for that matter will help you feel better about all of this, go for it! orngbiggrin.gif

ETA: oh, and no snark taken! orngbiggrin.gif We're all just trying to help Meg out, and if we can give her a range of options, all the better! joy.gif



Well, glad no snark taken ;).  I'm saying this not for the benefit of Meg as clearly she isn't interested in any more advice from me, but I will say for anyone else who stumbles upon this thread and who is having similar issues that plenty of peds miss these issues with feeding and latch, fatigue, tongue tie, supply.  My ped basically told me to chill, and then the SLP essentially solved my son's issues (and my own mental stress) within one session.  I just guess I don't see the harm in finding out if there is any way an SLP could help.  You can do it for free...take their advice or leave it...and it isn't invasive.  Regardless, I'm out of here as the tone of the thread (not your posts Mosaic) is icky. 

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#23 of 28 Old 07-25-2011, 06:20 AM
 
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Your LC should do a pre and post-feed weight check if there are suppy or transfer concerns.

 

was this done yet?  until you do this I wouldn't worry about anything else.


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#24 of 28 Old 07-25-2011, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yikes.  My baby was hungry with plenty of wet/poopy diapers and his milestones were on track.  The moral of the story isn't hyper-vigilance.  You're the one posting your concerns asking for help. 

 


My rant wasn't directed at you! I apologize if it came off that way. That wasn't my intention at all, so I probably should have been more careful in my wording. I'm simply ranting about my frustration in general. I worried & worried & worried for 12 weeks - pedi told me repeatedly, "She is fine, stop worrying!" SO I FINALLY STOP! I finally let go and think, "OK, she's small, but she's staying on that 5th percentile curve. We're all good!" And then WHAM... NOW her growth rate slows too much! (& I let 6 weeks go between having her weighed!) After I finally let go, THEN, THEN I get what feels like a cosmic kick in the crotch. So to me, it feels like, "The moral of the story is you can never rest."

 

That's my feelings of frustration at my situation. Actually, I DO appreciate input.

 

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was this [pre/post-feed weigh] done yet?  until you do this I wouldn't worry about anything else.

Actually it was done the very day I had her 4 MO checkup & her weight gain had slowed. She weighed LESS post-feeding! Nope, she didn't spit up, I didn't change her diaper or clothes, and it was the same scale. Obviously, the first weigh was messed up, because that's simply impossible.

 

I went back again 5 days later & she gained nearly 7 oz in 5 days, then .9 oz in a feeding - which I considered decent since she'd already had a big first-morning feed less than an hour before I went to have that pre/post feed weighing done.
 

I also just decided to BUY my own scale & do it at home.  But funny, after that happened with her weighing LESS post-feeding - the LC admitted "it's not an exact science" or something like that. I also asked my LLL Leader friend how important she thinks this metric is & she said, "not very." Mostly just because sometimes baby could be comfort-nursing and--therefore-- not gain, (i.e. not be transferring) & that certainly doesn't mean there is a problem. To me that means, therefore, you probably ought to do it several times in a day to get a more accurate picture.

 

I can't see why wet & dirty diapers aren't THE most important metric. One LC said to me that regarding 'transferring' - "Sometimes it LOOKS like a lot is going on [with regards to sucking & swallowing] but they are little Houdini's & it's just appearance."
Well, if baby is only BFed, you can't be "Houdini" about peeing & pooping! ;) You can't make pee & poop appear in a diaper unless milk is being swallowed! Not saying I'm disregarding post-feed weight as an utterly irrelevant metric - but remember my DD is also gaining in length & head circumference.

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#25 of 28 Old 07-25-2011, 12:39 PM
 
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I can feel your frustration leaping from the screen. Was her 5 oz in 7 days with supplementation or only nursing?

 

I've seen a baby who did this kind of 'stair case' growth - 3 weeks of nothing at all then a week later he'd gained 14 oz or so. Maybe (hopefully!) that's your little one's pattern.

 

I also don't love before and after feeding weights - I prefer weekly or if baby is newborn, daily weights with a babe who is having trouble gaining. They are so variable at the breast. Sometimes it's a huge meal and other times just a snack.

 

Hang in there, MegBoz. Soon the universe will balance and make up for the huge kick in the crotch.

 

 

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#26 of 28 Old 07-26-2011, 06:13 AM
 
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To me that means, therefore, you probably ought to do it several times in a day to get a more accurate picture.


yes - you're supposed to do it for 24 hours.


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#27 of 28 Old 07-26-2011, 06:15 AM
 
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I can't see why wet & dirty diapers aren't THE most important metric. One LC said to me that regarding 'transferring' - "Sometimes it LOOKS like a lot is going on [with regards to sucking & swallowing] but they are little Houdini's & it's just appearance."
Well, if baby is only BFed, you can't be "Houdini" about peeing & pooping! ;) You can't make pee & poop appear in a diaper unless milk is being swallowed! Not saying I'm disregarding post-feed weight as an utterly irrelevant metric - but remember my DD is also gaining in length & head circumference.



I had a friend with a baby who seemed fine in that regard but was only xfer'ing about an ounce at each feeding :(  It was a tongue tie issue and when it was clipped everything was great.


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#28 of 28 Old 07-26-2011, 07:54 AM
 
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Alright, I haven't read all of the above posts so maybe this is already covered but what chart are you using?

And do you have a pretty mobile/active 6 month old?

 

Also, you can get your milk tested for calorie count - I had mine and it was 23 cals an ounce.  The LC wasn't too keen on testing it because it she said baby would self regulate but it was easier for my husband to get that my milk was higher calorie than formula.  Have you done before/after weighs to see what she is transferring?

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