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#31 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:10 AM
 
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This is so disturbing to me, and I sincerely hope that it is a joke. In any case: WHAT ABOUT THE TEETH!?!?! Holy crap puppy teeth are sharp! You shouldn't be cross-species nursing anyway...but OMG the teeth!!

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#32 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:16 AM
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Why would you think human milk is better for dogs than cow's milk, anyway? Not that you should give cow's milk when there is nutritionally appropriate puppy formula, but human breastmilk isn't made of magic. 

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#33 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cromulent View Post

WHAT ABOUT THE TEETH!?!?! Holy crap puppy teeth are sharp! You shouldn't be cross-species nursing anyway...but OMG the teeth!!


I know right! bigeyes.gif There are no words for the horror that puppy teeth on human nipples would be.

 


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#34 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MJB View Post

Why would you think human milk is better for dogs than cow's milk, anyway? Not that you should give cow's milk when there is nutritionally appropriate puppy formula, but human breastmilk isn't made of magic. 

exactly.  

and i agree that it's the fact that you are talking about LATCHING the puppy that makes this whole thing disgustingly creepy.  I still maintain you must be kidding.
 

 


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#35 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:23 AM
 
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Are you KIDDING?  There are sparkles in it! 
 

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Originally Posted by MJB View Post

 but human breastmilk isn't made of magic. 



 Just kidding. 

 

What I dont understand is the profound felt need to help the mother out while shes doing............exactly what nature intended her to do.  Are you sitting there watching her nurse the puppies all day? If so, is it that painful to watch her struggle? (if shes even struggling)  because quite honestly, I would expect the scenerio described about moving pupps around and having to start ALLLLL over is pretty much just par for the course when you have litters of puppies and 8 nipples to go around. shrug.gif

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#36 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:43 AM
 
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This might be the strangest post I have ever read.  You latch the dogs on to YOUR OWN NIPPLES?  (Holy fricken puppy teeth.)  Instead of using a bottle or something?  So, that would be the equivalent of a formula fed child latching on to a cow udder to get it straight from the tap (which you wouldn't do...you wouldn't even feed raw cow's milk to a newborn human even if you couldn't breastfeed.  Why?  Because it would starve your child to death.)?  

 

I'm sorry mama...I'm sure you had good intentions, but for reals, I would not be putting a puppy on my own nipple.  And mammal milks are not interchangable without some scientific intervention.  The same as you wouldn't give a newborn human straight up cow's milk.


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#37 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:49 AM
 
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If you are breeding dogs and then nursing them from your own breasts, I really hope someone calls animal control. :(  That's bordering on animal abuse, plain and simple.  That's a good way to confuse the heck out of your dog, and kill the puppies (due to not receiving proper nutrition) .   Just as humans babies are made to nurse human mothers, puppies are made to nurse dogs.  Human milk for human babies, and let mama dog do her job.  If she's popping out litters too big to care for, it's time to stop breeding her and let her properly care for her young.  A healthy dog life is not sucking on a human's nipple.
 

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You mean spayed? lol
No we are not spaying her, she was bought for a pet, but chosen for her breed and to be bred. But that's a conversation for another topic and don't want this to be hijacked away from the original topic.
As for t he walks already covered, not only do we live in the country, but also walk daily, and have trips to the beach at the end of the block, lots of fresh air, excercise, and a natural balanced healthy dog life.

 



 



 

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#38 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 09:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by prescottchels View Post

Wow! Why not? I've never heard of anything like that, but I'd think as long as the pups were rotated between you and their mama so that all of them get puppy mama milk it's gotta be better than the formula...right??

I'm interested to hear if anyone else comes up with BTDT stories.


Oh wow...because forumula is too evil for dogs too? 
 

 


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#39 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 2goingon2 View Post



 


Oh wow...because forumula is too evil for dogs too? 
 

 



No - human milk is best for human babies.  Canine milk is best for puppies.  Formula is a second choice if species specific milk is not available.  Anyhow,  I don't get why the op is even considering this - are the puppies failing to thrive or something?

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#40 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 10:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Chronic Chrissy View Post

Lol as for the consulting a vet I live in a small town area and know that any vet around here will sell what they have, and make sure you buy it and not an alternative, and pull the "you want to kill your pet by trying something different that is your choice" just like doctors hold our babies life hostage to push interventions. Not to mention I doubt the few female vets we have around nursed their kids, or could even get past the shock of what I presented and give it any consideration before shutting the whole idea right down. Look at the response here. And why would I want to waste their time with something I'm just thinking about and exploring and probably never going to do?


Ok I couldn't avoid responding to this. I am a veterinarian, I graduated from the Ohio State university in 2009. I have a 6 month old still EBF son and have donated 300 oz so far of my own pumped breast milk to a mama on HM4HB.

 I will leave the comment about pushing formula because they are trying to sell you something because it's true - many vets are as bad as doctors on that, and I hate it.

All that said - the main point here is that  the milk of no species is a perfect or even good substitute for the newborns of any other species. Aside from the fat and protein content difference, which was pointed out earlier, the electrolyte-fluid imbalance is different. These things all contribute to lack of proper nutrient balance as well as inability to digest properly (diarrhea, constipation). While I agree that formula is not ideal, the cows milk base is supplemented in the appropriate ways to make it as balanced for puppies as is artificially possible.

 

It is not recommended to give plain goat milk (or any other milk) to a human baby as primary nutrition.

So, formula is definitely the best alternative available. But I don't believe that you have given a reason to need an alternative at this point. If you leave the pups and mom alone and let them nurse naturally, it is highly likely that your bitch will have plenty of milk and the puppies will all thrive. Intervention in birth and the neonatal process is in dogs as in humans - best not performed in almost all cases.  Nature knows what it is doing. If there is a puppy that is struggling it is because there is some other underlying problem making it weaker than the others and as a breeder honestly you should not want to perpetuate that, and that puppy should not be sold for the same price as the others as it will likely have ongoing health problems.  
 

 


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#41 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 10:20 AM
 
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No artificial nipples for 6 weeks, wouldn't want to mess up a puppy latch. Giggle.

Ive seen animals drink human milk, from overacting letdown, spilled pumped milk and thrown up milk. I've seen it used to treat skin issues in animals. But the point is the pup/animal was NOT breastfeeding!

Finger, spoon or bottle feed pumped milk is you are so inclined. Or even just a saucer on the floor. Human milk isn't designed for pups so supplement with puppy milk is needed.

This is out there. I just can't imagine bringing a puppy to my nipple. O.o


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#42 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm still not jusitfying doing this, and not saying that I am or have even latched on a pup from this litter, but since this is a discussion let's discuss it....

 

What about baby teeth? Those are sharp too, and if you've ever watched a puppy nurse their toungue cover over the bottom teeth. Plus isn't this an arguement for early weaning we all try to educate on? I've seen her discipline her pups many times for nipping, just as we do our own. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cromulent View Post

This is so disturbing to me, and I sincerely hope that it is a joke. In any case: WHAT ABOUT THE TEETH!?!?! Holy crap puppy teeth are sharp! You shouldn't be cross-species nursing anyway...but OMG the teeth!!



 

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#43 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Pumping would be my first option, except that my breasts refuse to respond to a pump even when I was nursing my kids, and I still have TONS of milk that just can't be pumped
 

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Originally Posted by Hesperia View Post

No artificial nipples for 6 weeks, wouldn't want to mess up a puppy latch. Giggle.

Ive seen animals drink human milk, from overacting letdown, spilled pumped milk and thrown up milk. I've seen it used to treat skin issues in animals. But the point is the pup/animal was NOT breastfeeding!

Finger, spoon or bottle feed pumped milk is you are so inclined. Or even just a saucer on the floor. Human milk isn't designed for pups so supplement with puppy milk is needed.

This is out there. I just can't imagine bringing a puppy to my nipple. O.o


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#44 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I would think human milk would be more comparable than cows milk because our dieats are much more similar, and we are animals of a closer size
 

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Originally Posted by MJB View Post

Why would you think human milk is better for dogs than cow's milk, anyway? Not that you should give cow's milk when there is nutritionally appropriate puppy formula, but human breastmilk isn't made of magic. 



 

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#45 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:07 AM
 
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You stated that you nursed the puppies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronic Chrissy View Post

Out of curiousity last time she had a litter I was still nursing and found our nipple size the same and was able to easily latch on the puppies and immediately felt the letdown.


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#46 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:11 AM
 
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You know, I can understand someone in a third world country nursing a sustenance animal.  But here, where we have resources available to us - why wouldn't you just buy the puppy formula if you need it??  It is designed to be the next closest thing to the pup's mother's milk.  Closer, even, than human milk.  Can you not afford puppy formula?  Maybe breeding isn't really a good choice for your family?

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With all the respect I can muster.....

Did you really expect a warm, fuzzy response? That's like if I came on here and announced that I was walking through the park today and there was a homeless man holding a sign, saying he was starving. Upon seeing this, I decided to lift my shirt and invite him to nurse. Would I get a warm fuzzy response? H*ll no! There is no reason to nurse anybody/anything other than your infant/child when there is an acceptable alternative available. In your situation, there is puppy formula available. In the situation above, I could have bought the man a sandwich and gatorade.

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#48 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Lmao I wish i had time to sit and watch the puppies all day, busy farm life gotta just check in from time to time and when she comes to get me or calls and I'm around to hear her. Generally if you look at nature animals have so many to a litter expecting to lose a few or have the weaker ones not thrive as happened last time with 2 of her 13, it doesn't mean they weren't ment to live, just couldn't compete for limited resources. Plus like human breasts some produce more than others and there is at least one that the puppies completely ignore because it doesn't produce at all, meaning there is only one nipple to two puppies on average, imagine nursing 4 newborns all hungry at once  and only having 2 boobs and one hand attached to your face
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Charlie's~Angel~ View Post


Are you KIDDING?  There are sparkles in it! 
 



 Just kidding. 

 

What I dont understand is the profound felt need to help the mother out while shes doing............exactly what nature intended her to do.  Are you sitting there watching her nurse the puppies all day? If so, is it that painful to watch her struggle? (if shes even struggling)  because quite honestly, I would expect the scenerio described about moving pupps around and having to start ALLLLL over is pretty much just par for the course when you have litters of puppies and 8 nipples to go around. shrug.gif



 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephandOwen View Post

With all the respect I can muster.....

Did you really expect a warm, fuzzy response? That's like if I came on here and announced that I was walking through the park today and there was a homeless man holding a sign, saying he was starving. Upon seeing this, I decided to lift my shirt and invite him to nurse. Would I get a warm fuzzy response? H*ll no! There is no reason to nurse anybody/anything other than your infant/child when there is an acceptable alternative available. In your situation, there is puppy formula available. In the situation above, I could have bought the man a sandwich and gatorade.

Excellent!
 

 

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#50 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:19 AM
 
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Lmao I wish i had time to sit and watch the puppies all day, busy farm life gotta just check in from time to time and when she comes to get me or calls and I'm around to hear her. Generally if you look at nature animals have so many to a litter expecting to lose a few or have the weaker ones not thrive as happened last time with 2 of her 13, it doesn't mean they weren't ment to live, just couldn't compete for limited resources. Plus like human breasts some produce more than others and there is at least one that the puppies completely ignore because it doesn't produce at all, meaning there is only one nipple to two puppies on average, imagine nursing 4 newborns all hungry at once  and only having 2 boobs and one hand attached to your face
 



 

 

 

It's called survival of the fittest.  As an animal breeder I would expect you to be more familar with the concept. 

 

The dog is meant to nurse two puppies per nipple - why are you attributing human characteristics to your dog?

 

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#51 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:26 AM
 
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Now we are calling humans and dogs apples, RATHER then apples and oranges?  duh.gif
 

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 imagine nursing 4 newborns all hungry at once  and only having 2 boobs and one hand attached to your face
 



 



 

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#52 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not saying it would be a perfect match, or a primary source. with so many it would take.....7 feedings to get back around to the first two again, if I were to do it, and if I could tell wich is which.
as for the interventions during birth, and neonatal time, I agree, but also have to point out that sometimes a simple interevntion at the right time can save a life that does grow and thrive like all the others after the need is passed. Simple example, a bleeding cord, Mom chews the cord too soon, blood is normal, it clots  it does it's thing Momm licks it away all is good, another puppy the bleeding doesn't stop, I can see it pumping and gushing and spreading across everywhere, and all of a sudden pup #7,comes, it takes so little energy to pinch the cord as it lays or crawls, let the puppy do it's thing, mom licks between the two, wait 4 minutes un pinch, still bleeding, 10 seconds and a simple knot of dental floss and the puppy that would have bled out 15 minutes ago is fine, and goes on to thrive.
People are buying my puppies for pets not furture breeding, and if there is a pup that had trouble after birth there would be no way of knowing which it is with them all looking the same for the first bit, and with 13 it's super hard to keep all strait.

Someone else commented on the fact that if she is having this large of litters to stop breeding her as if it were a defect. She gets time off between litters and 1-2 heats inbetween allowing her time to be ready to go again so long as she is healthy and continues to be a good mom without any risk to herself or the future litters

 

 

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Ok I couldn't avoid responding to this. I am a veterinarian, I graduated from the Ohio State university in 2009. I have a 6 month old still EBF son and have donated 300 oz so far of my own pumped breast milk to a mama on HM4HB.

 I will leave the comment about pushing formula because they are trying to sell you something because it's true - many vets are as bad as doctors on that, and I hate it.

All that said - the main point here is that  the milk of no species is a perfect or even good substitute for the newborns of any other species. Aside from the fat and protein content difference, which was pointed out earlier, the electrolyte-fluid imbalance is different. These things all contribute to lack of proper nutrient balance as well as inability to digest properly (diarrhea, constipation). While I agree that formula is not ideal, the cows milk base is supplemented in the appropriate ways to make it as balanced for puppies as is artificially possible.

 

It is not recommended to give plain goat milk (or any other milk) to a human baby as primary nutrition.

So, formula is definitely the best alternative available. But I don't believe that you have given a reason to need an alternative at this point. If you leave the pups and mom alone and let them nurse naturally, it is highly likely that your bitch will have plenty of milk and the puppies will all thrive. Intervention in birth and the neonatal process is in dogs as in humans - best not performed in almost all cases.  Nature knows what it is doing. If there is a puppy that is struggling it is because there is some other underlying problem making it weaker than the others and as a breeder honestly you should not want to perpetuate that, and that puppy should not be sold for the same price as the others as it will likely have ongoing health problems.  
 

 



 

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#53 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah a year ago out of curiousity I had a puppy latched on for 60seconds maybe and only one time, I tried a prairie oyster once and spat it out, it doesn't mean I eat the damned things, lol
 

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You stated that you nursed the puppies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronic Chrissy View Post

Out of curiousity last time she had a litter I was still nursing and found our nipple size the same and was able to easily latch on the puppies and immediately felt the letdown.



 

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#54 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:37 AM
 
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lurk.gifthis is the best thread ever.  all this AND we get a sex talk forum?  mdc gods are good to us.


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#55 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:38 AM
 
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I'm going to report this thread. This is animal abuse, and very Island of Dr. Moreau.

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#56 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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To me that's like saying why wouldn't you put a baby on formula instead of using donated milk from a vegitarian or someone that is lactose intolerant, maybe they eat processed food from time to time, or live by an airport breathing in jetfuel, so formula is best, come on. Yes we can afford formula. And wether or not my puppies are worthy to be sold and bought for $300 each considering the the care and full disclosure of everything upon potential buyers visits to my home is essentially up to those people and what they feel are proper standards. If someone disagrees than I'm not going to stop breeding, I'm going to wait to find tha families that fit my puppies better.

 

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You know, I can understand someone in a third world country nursing a sustenance animal.  But here, where we have resources available to us - why wouldn't you just buy the puppy formula if you need it??  It is designed to be the next closest thing to the pup's mother's milk.  Closer, even, than human milk.  Can you not afford puppy formula?  Maybe breeding isn't really a good choice for your family?



 

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#57 of 57 Old 08-02-2011, 11:52 AM
 
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Alright, y'all, I'm closing this thread. This thread seems to be veering off into a discussion about puppy nutrition, breeding, and other topics that are best suited for the Pets forum. Additionally, the OP has gotten a lot of feedback, including from a professional veterinarian; and I don't think that leaving this thread open longer will provide a greater variety of responses.

And, to be honest, I JUST started modding this forum yesterday. What a warm welcome!! lol.gif

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