night time nursing - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 10 Old 09-16-2011, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
 
mamabyrdie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

DS2 is 4 months old.  He has been a great nurser (he is almost 18 lbs already!) and a great sleeper.  He goes to bed around 8:30 and recently he's been waking up at 12:30 and 4:30 to nurse.  He eats and goes right back to sleep.  Prior to this he would sleep through until 5 or 6.  I'm concerned I might be getting him in the habit of needing to nurse to fall back asleep between sleep cycles (because it's always about the length of a sleep cycle between feeds).  Now it could be he is hungry - he is a hoss!  or the four month sleep regression I've heard about but don't really understand (because I've also heard it only lasts a week or so and this is perpetuating). I will say that during the day he will fall asleep on his own about 50% of the time; the other half of the time he falls asleep nursing.  At night though, before bed, he wants to hang out on the boob forever before falling asleep.  any thoughts or insights? 

mamabyrdie is offline  
#2 of 10 Old 09-16-2011, 09:28 AM
 
OSUvet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Sorry I don't have advice but I thought that infant sleep cycles were only 45-90 minutes for the average baby? My DS is 7 mo and we have a sleeping problem, he wakes every 45-60 minutes all night long and usually goes back to sleep pretty easily, and I thought that this was between each sleep cycle. 


Kendra (30),  mum to ds fly-by-nursing1.gif(2/14/11), and one angel1.gif. Pregnant with my rainbow1284.gif due 6/10/13, it's a GIRL!!!
 novaxnocirc.gif familybed1.gifcd.gifhomebirth.jpggoorganic.jpg

OSUvet is offline  
#3 of 10 Old 09-16-2011, 05:26 PM
 
foreverinbluejeans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Tucson
Posts: 1,508
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Babies need to nurse at night for brain growth. Human milk is digested in about 2 hours and the blood sugar starts to fall. Thats why you don't want to go more than 4-6 hours without nursing. You aren't getting him into a habit of having to nurse to go to sleep. It is a normal, necessary behavior. Babies that are forced or trained to go 8 -10 hours or more at night without food aren't getting enough sugar to their brains.

 

People think it is good to have a big baby and that breastfed babies come in all sizes. That is old thinking. We now know that obesity can begin in infancy and that breastfeed babies can be overfed. Sometimes breastfed babies are big and slim way down as toddlers. Babies should double their birth weight at 4-6 months and triple their birth weight at a year. If your baby was 10 pounds at birth his weight may be what is expected. That would mean he could be 30 pounds at 12 months. That is the size of some 3 year olds.

 

There are a couple of things you can do to slow his weight gain. He does not need to go on a diet! He may be getting the foremilk when he feeds and not the high fat hindmilk that makes him feel full. You could try using one breast a feeding so he gets the high fat hindmilk that makes him feel full. You may be feeding too often. You may be feeding him every time he makes a peep and he likes nursine so he will nurse even though he isn't hungry. There may be other mothering things you can do. Since I don't know you I don't know what is going on, I could be all wrong.

 

I don't mean to upset you about your baby's weight. Please don't think I am saying you are a bad mom. Some moms don't know. My DIL's sister had a baby that was born at the same time as my grandson (they are cousins). Her baby was gaining a little slow the first month and she fed and fed that baby (breastfeeding). One doctor told her she had to get the baby's weight up. She had the information that the she was making her baby weigh too much amd she just kept feeding. At a year my grandson was 19 pounds (he weighed 6 something at birth) and the girl cousin was 35 pounds and looked like the Staypuffed Marshmellow Man from Ghostbusters. At 3 years the girl is obese.  

 

Night nursing is important and that shouldn't be eliminated to try and slow his weight gain. Your baby sounds like he is on a nice routine right now. Babies change. Just when you get all settled into a routine the baby may start doing new things. Please take the things I said about your baby's weight as information and not as saying anything bad about you or your baby. I care that you don't have to carry around a toddler that weighs 35 pounds. I care that any baby becomes overweight or obese because no one told his mother that breastfed babies can gain too much. I could be wrong and he could have been huge at birth and his weight is what would be expected.  


: Grandmother , 3 Adult Sons

foreverinbluejeans is offline  
#4 of 10 Old 09-16-2011, 06:04 PM
 
isabchi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Maybe, you can find a very valuable information here from Dr. Mckenna. 

http://www.naturalchild.org/james_mckenna/cosleeping.pdf


Mama of and , partners.gif with  Love
isabchi is offline  
#5 of 10 Old 09-17-2011, 04:49 AM
 
PatioGardener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,041
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'm quite upset about some of the (mis)information about weight in babies in this post, so I am going to address issue by issue. My thoughts are in blue. I have bolded the thoughts that I take exception to.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans View Post


People think it is good to have a big baby and that breastfed babies come in all sizes. That is old thinking. We now know that obesity can begin in infancy and that breastfeed babies can be overfed. Sometimes breastfed babies are big and slim way down as toddlers. Babies should double their birth weight at 4-6 months and triple their birth weight at a year. If your baby was 10 pounds at birth his weight may be what is expected. That would mean he could be 30 pounds at 12 months. That is the size of some 3 year olds.

 

Breastfed babies do come in all sizes. If you look at the new WHO growth charts, an 18 lb 4 month old is on the 90th percentile (about.) NORMAL. Many experts agree that breastfeeding on cue (or on demand) is the normal way for babies to feed, grow and live.

 

There are a couple of things you can do to slow his weight gain. He does not need to go on a diet! He may be getting the foremilk when he feeds and not the high fat hindmilk that makes him feel full. You could try using one breast a feeding so he gets the high fat hindmilk that makes him feel full. You may be feeding too often. You may be feeding him every time he makes a peep and he likes nursine so he will nurse even though he isn't hungry. There may be other mothering things you can do. Since I don't know you I don't know what is going on, I could be all wrong.

 

Why on earth would a mama want to slow the weight gain of a healthy exclusively breastfed baby? I don't understand how this unsolicited advice came out of a question about night feeding (which I'll answer after!). 18 lb at 4 months in a healthy exclusively breastfed on cue baby is a variation of normal.

 

I don't mean to upset you about your baby's weight. Please don't think I am saying you are a bad mom. Some moms don't know. My DIL's sister had a baby that was born at the same time as my grandson (they are cousins). Her baby was gaining a little slow the first month and she fed and fed that baby (breastfeeding). One doctor told her she had to get the baby's weight up. She had the information that the she was making her baby weigh too much amd she just kept feeding. At a year my grandson was 19 pounds (he weighed 6 something at birth) and the girl cousin was 35 pounds and looked like the Staypuffed Marshmellow Man from Ghostbusters. At 3 years the girl is obese.  

 

This is a good time to remind ourselves that the plural of anecdote is not data. Personal stories are interesting but not the basis of research or evidence. Please look at the WHO growth curves and check out this great kellymom page for some information on breastfeeding that is backed up by evidence. http://kellymom.com/babyconcerns/growth/weight-toomuch.html

 

Night nursing is important and that shouldn't be eliminated to try and slow his weight gain. Your baby sounds like he is on a nice routine right now. Babies change. Just when you get all settled into a routine the baby may start doing new things. Please take the things I said about your baby's weight as information and not as saying anything bad about you or your baby. I care that you don't have to carry around a toddler that weighs 35 pounds. I care that any baby becomes overweight or obese because no one told his mother that breastfed babies can gain too much. I could be wrong and he could have been huge at birth and his weight is what would be expected.  

I have no reason to doubt that concern expressed in this post is genuine. I wish more people were concerned about the obesity epidemic in North America! Fortunately, breastfeeding on cue is not contributing to the epidemic, and may actual be stemming the tide.
 

 

isabchi and Deepfeet like this.
PatioGardener is offline  
#6 of 10 Old 09-17-2011, 05:01 AM
 
PatioGardener's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,041
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabyrdie View Post

DS2 is 4 months old.  He has been a great nurser (he is almost 18 lbs already!) and a great sleeper.  He goes to bed around 8:30 and recently he's been waking up at 12:30 and 4:30 to nurse.  He eats and goes right back to sleep.  Prior to this he would sleep through until 5 or 6.  I'm concerned I might be getting him in the habit of needing to nurse to fall back asleep between sleep cycles (because it's always about the length of a sleep cycle between feeds).  Now it could be he is hungry - he is a hoss!  or the four month sleep regression I've heard about but don't really understand (because I've also heard it only lasts a week or so and this is perpetuating). I will say that during the day he will fall asleep on his own about 50% of the time; the other half of the time he falls asleep nursing.  At night though, before bed, he wants to hang out on the boob forever before falling asleep.  any thoughts or insights? 


Baby just woke so this will be quick :)

 

4 month sleep regression lasted ~2 months for us. It is developmentally normal. Breastmilk has a chemical in it that helps babies to sleep (!!) so is it biologically normal to nurse infants to sleep. Me, I would not worry at all about making associations between sleep and nursing at this young age! It's normal. I would expect that baby would be hungry at night and need to nurse for another 8 months at least.

 

Will post some good kellymom info once I have time.

 

ETA: http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/4mo-sleep.html

 

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/sleep.html

 

 

 

isabchi likes this.
PatioGardener is offline  
#7 of 10 Old 09-18-2011, 07:22 AM
 
foreverinbluejeans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Tucson
Posts: 1,508
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

This baby's weight is on the 95th percentile line on the CDC grow chart. I see the growth chart you are looking at on the kellymom web site but that is a chart of a "small set of infant boys". This is not the official WHO charts. If you read at the bottom it was used in preparation for a committee. Growth charts come from huge sets of infants.

 

I am concerned about a baby on the 95th percentile. When a baby is below the 5th or 3rd (depending on the age and health of the baby) we call it failure to thrive FTT and it is a big deal. CPS can become involved, doctors can admit the baby to the hospital without the parent's permission, babies my have to have weight checks 3 times a week, the mother may be forced to suppliment, ect.  If an infant is at the 95th percentile we don't do anything. We know babies that weigh too much have lifelong health consequences.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/data/set1clinical/cj41c017.pdf 

 

Why on earth would a mama want to slow down the weight gain of her baby. Breastfed babies can be overfed. She can reflect on her situation and see if that is the case. We don't know if she is breastfeeding on cue. I don't think studies have been done that prove breastfeeding only on cue can't lead to overweight babies. As mothers we are responsible for our baby's weight. If our baby weighs too little we nurse more or if all else fails we supplement. If our baby weighs too much it is our responsibility to look at the situation and see what we can change to slow weight gain while making sure our baby gets enough milk for brain growth and development.   

 

All the suggestions I gave are common suggestions we give mothers - use one breast a feeding, and make sure your baby needs to be fed and you aren't using breastfeeding when other mothering skills could be appropriate.

 

A mama would want to slow donwn the weight gain of her baby because we know obesity begins in infancy. Being at the 95th percentile for weight is not a good thing. The baby is at risk for diabetes and heart disease as a child. This is not something that might happen when the child is 70. Babies usually stay on a growth curve. That means they stay at the 95th percentile at toddlers and children. It is not healthy for a child to be at the 95th percentile and I don't think we would wish that for our child.

 

It's difficult to carry  a heavy child in a sling or carrier. A stroller ends up being used and the mother and child miss out on that experience. Babies that are at the higher percentiles in weight can't stay rear facing in a car seat as long and that is a safety issue. This baby may be too heavy for most infant seats by 5 months.

 

I'm sorry PatioGardener made a big deal about my post.


: Grandmother , 3 Adult Sons

foreverinbluejeans is offline  
#8 of 10 Old 09-18-2011, 08:25 AM
 
AnkaJones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I wanted to comment on a few things:

 

First, about the obesity epidemic.  I'm not sure whether breastfed babies who are heavier become obese as adults.  The papers I'm familiar with didn't have a high proportion (or any, or didn't specify) of breastfed infants.  Unless you have a reference showing differently, I don't think the data from, for example, Moss and Yeadon's paper would be generalizable to breastfed infants.  Also, most of these papers don't extend into adulthood -- they show that infant obesity correlates with obesity at 2 or 3 years of age.  Again, I can't claim to have read every scholarly paper related to this subject, so if you have any other references that might inform the discussion, please say something.

 

Second, about the CDC and WHO growth charts.  The CDC growth charts are widely known not to represent what happens with breastfed infants.  Period.  Why?  Because while they were generated from a large number of infants, those were formula fed infants.  Formula fed infants may wind up in the same place as their breastfed counterparts in a year or two, but early on they grow more continuously while breastfed infants tend to grow fast, then level out, then grow again.  The WHO charts reflect this difference.  There is considerable potential harm to reacting to a breastfed infant jumping up in weight early on.  Namely, if you do restrict feeding, you damage mom's milk supply, and then the baby can fall of their curve in another direction.

 

Third, about diabetes.  Again, unless you have references I'm not aware of, the data about diabetes in obese infants/children is in a primarily formula fed population.  There is also evidence that breastfed babies have far lower rates of diabetes than formula fed infants.  I don't think you can generalize the data derived from the formula fed population to the breastfed population, given this other evidence.  Do you have a reference for a study of breastfed infants showing increased rates of diabetes in obese breastfed infants? 

 

Fourth, about missing out on other mothering skills because you breastfeed.  I can't say I've really ever seen this.    Nursing, especially as the baby ages, is an intensly social interaction -- for both mom and baby.  Have you ever seen a nursing mother not change her baby's diaper for 24 hours while the baby cried because she just kept offering her breast instead?  No.  She changes the babies diaper.  She also rocks the baby, carries him around in a sling, etc.  Nursing mothers, if anything, are more attached and more in tune with their babies needs outside of breastfeeding.   I'd use stronger language if it wasn't against the terms of service on this one!

 

Finally, about rear facing car seats and slings.  Slings come in a wide variety of shapes and styles, and can be used on average toddlers.  They can totally be used on much heavier infants that usual.  Infant car seats are available that go up to 35 lbs, and many other car seats can go rear facing. 

 

It seems this thread has been thoroughly highjacked.  Might as well produce some data, foreverinbluejeans.

 

Anka


hippie.gifwife to DH, new mom to babyboy.gif 7/4/2011.  femalesling.GIF familybed1.gif BFPChart2.gif cd.gif knit.gif

"I remember my mother's prayers and they have followed me.  They have clung to me all my life." -- Abraham Lincoln. 

AnkaJones is offline  
#9 of 10 Old 09-18-2011, 09:24 AM
 
luckiest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)

(Not even going to address the hijacking going on here)

 

Night nursing is a GOOD thing!  Like patio gardener mentioned, babies need 'round the clock feeding to help their wee brains grow and to keep their blood sugar levels stable.  Babies have very quick sleep cycles and go through more phases of lighter, vulnerable sleep than adults do.  It's a survival mechanism for them - they are able to wake up often and "check in" - am I still safe?  Is mom still near?  Am I hungry, thirsty, cold?  Nursing answers all of those questions and helps establish a strong bond of trust between you two.  If it's a concern of you getting enough sleep, I'd recommend bringing the baby into bed with you after the first waking and falling back to sleep together.  I highly recommend the Sears Baby Sleep Book if you have more concerns, it was a life saver for me.

 

BTW, DS is 9.5 months and nurses about every 3 hours through the night, about every 1.5 during the day, sometimes more, sometimes less (right now he's got two teeth coming in, so it's much more!).  Totally normal.  Being "dependent" on the breast to go to sleep is absolutely not a bad thing either.  Breastmilk has sleepy hormones and babies this age (and even much older) are not supposed to be able to go to sleep on their own.  They are 100% dependent creatures!  They want to go to sleep in a safe place - at the breast is the safest place there is.  




Living and loving in ATX with DH (of 7 years) and DS (3.5)
luckiest is online now  
#10 of 10 Old 09-18-2011, 08:41 PM
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So sorry that this has become about your baby's weight! I'm quite sure u mentioned that for other purposes than to suggest that there is or isn't a weight issue! I have struggled with this thought also, but I think unfortunately youe baby's sleeping habits have just changed. I am not at a point yet where I need to minimize night feedings right now (have been very lucky!) with my middle daughter though, she seemed to wake up out of habit and I foynd that if I went through the middle of the night routine but skipped the feeding, she still went back to sleep. Ie. Take out, sooth, change diaper, then burp (having skipped the feeding) and she would go back to sleep! I did this only on those wakings when I didn't think she was really hungry or had eaten rather recently.
Good lyck and hope u get more sleep soon!
tincia is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off