Question about nutrition & BF. - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 03:01 PM
 
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Also, any woman who is too selfish to make dietary changes to keep up her breastfeeding relationship would probably not continue if the going got a little rough and her energy started to wane anyway.
If a woman thinks, however, that her diet will not make a difference and that she's so exhausted she can't even get out of bed in the morning, she may not think she has a choice. Would you deny a woman ALL of the avenues to explore to enhance her/her baby's health? I hope not.
When did we decide that women were too stupid to sift through information given and draw their own conclusions?
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#62 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 03:14 PM
 
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I don't even know what you are talking about HerthElde. I haven't mentioned denying anyone anything. Nor did I use words like stupid or selfish either.

The problem that I'm seeing in this thread is that people disregard things that don't fit their agenda. I'm asking exactly what you touched on, that we all sift through the information and draw our own conclusions. I would hope though that the information that we do sift through is not antedotal and that it is based on real scientific research.
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#63 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 03:20 PM
 
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In this case, why are there so many people who have trouble? Do we find one explanation based on something other than diet and call it a day? Do we ignore the very real FACT that one's own diet impacts one's own energy and overall health, or do we admit to that but decide because there's no research at our fingertips to show otherwise that our own health will not impact our children as well?
GOOD SCIENCE IS ABOUT QUESTIONS/SEEKING ANSWERS, NOT ABOUT DRAWING RIGID CONCLUSIONS. Anecdotal evidence may not be conclusive, but it should lead to more questions - as such, it is never irrelevant.
Why are there so many people that have trouble? Where are all of these people, I ask you. I've seen three people in this thread come forward and say that they made dietary changes and saw results. Big deal. Like I said, I don't think that I eat all that well myself yet I have not had any problems. So should I then conclude that because I have not had problems that it is okay to eat poorly? NO, of course not. Instead I look to the scientific, peer-reviewed evidence that we have available to us.

If a mother's diet affects her unborn child, would it not affect her bairn as well? I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that if a mother's diet affects her unborn child, would it not affect the unborn child's brain as well? Or the mother's brain? Even still, we are discussing maternal diet & it's effects on breastmilk. Pregnancy and lactation are two completely separate biologicial functions. You cannot compare the effects of one on the other.

"GOOD SCIENCE IS ABOUT QUESTIONS/SEEKING ANSWERS, NOT ABOUT DRAWING RIGID CONCLUSIONS." Yes well at some point we all must arrive at a conclusion for our own self. Did you not arrive at a conclusion regarding your own diet? And who said anything about rigidity? One is free to arrive at one conclusion and then when faced with more evidence, change their mind.

I apologize that you were offended by my disagreement with you.
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#64 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 03:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by its_me_mona
If a mother's diet affects her unborn child, would it not affect her bairn as well? I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that if a mother's diet affects her unborn child, would it not affect the unborn child's brain as well?
"Bairn"= child who is already born. I apologize, I should have used language which was, well, modern english.

My second post was mostly in reference to your implication that if we say diet affects nursing, we sabotage the desire of women to nurse.
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There is no evidence that suggests that maternal diet negatively affects breastmilk and to tell a nursing mother or would-be nursing mother that is does is irresponsible. It feeds the myth that nursing mothers must some how be 'better' than her FF counterpart.
I truly feel that if a woman cares about her child and if she honestly believes that trans-fats negatively impact her baby's brain, she will attempt to cut them out (or almost out) without a second thought. Every (well, most) mother does what she feels is best overall for her children, even if in her past she believed something else was best, even if in the future she'll draw different conclusions about what is best.
I wasn't offended by your post, and hope you weren't offended by mine, although I know I came off a little more aggressive than I had intended to. It's so much easier to have these conversations in real life (easier to see intent when you can see someone's face). It's just that your statement seems to imply that if women think they have to do something different, they just won't be bothered to do so, and I disagree. Parenthood is about change.
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The problem that I'm seeing in this thread is that people disregard things that don't fit their agenda
Exactly.

(That said, just because you give someone information or references doesn't mean they will come to the same conclusions - I believe transfats have an incredibly negative impact on nursing babies and babies in utero so I try to avoid them. But if I didn't truly believe there was an effect, I probably wouldn't make such an effort, kwim? I'm just trying to get across that I don't believe one is a bad mother for eating that kind of stuff, just that at this moment in time we probably have made different conclusions)-(BTW, totally OT, but I've known about the negative impact of transfatty acids for a few years - learned about it in a biochem class - so the whole use of it as such a buzzword is really starting to grate on me. This statement isn't directed at anyone at all, I just had to get it off my chest )
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Originally Posted by its_me_mona
Thanks for the offer, Amanda! Tell me the name of the book and I will find it and read it. Although I will admit to you that I have done some research on Weston Price and what I've found has not shown him in a very positive light. I have a hard time finding anything he says to be valid since he recommends giving infants raw cow's milk and eggs - two things that can cause serious damage to a baby. But I am willing to take a look at this book that you are talking about and draw my own conclusions.
You are confused with the work of Sally Fallon, author of Nourishing Traditions and the Weston A Price Foundation, and the actual work of Price. Fallon is just one person who has based her work on WAP. She didn't nurse her children, so obviously she has some issues around breastfeed. No where does Weston A Price recommend giving cows milk or egg yoke to babies. However, I and others have already demonstrated how raw cows milk is benefitial for children, not saying babies under 12 months of age here.

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As for extended breastfeeding rates: I'm an EBF'er. My diet is less than perfect. I have a difficult time getting my "5 a Day" in (much less the 10 a Day that is currently recommended). I drink coffee and diet soda along with my water. I eat fast food & cookies from time to time (although not often). My diet surely could be better. But I have plenty of energy -- energy to nurse my daughter as much as she wants to. Energy to chase & wrestle my 3 and 5 year olds around. I even have enough energy to get a good 3 mile run in most days. Education and support are the most important in not only getting a woman to breastfeed in the first place but to encourage her to continue as well. Telling her to eat better (and again, may I point out that no one in this discussion has been able to tell me just what a nursing mother should be eating) is only going to discourage her from continuing to breastfeed because she'll perceive it as being too difficult.
I am afraid your diet does not sound optimal for nourishing both your body and your child's. For a start do you know what you are consuming and passing on to your child by drinking diet soda? Have you any idea what aspartame does to your brain and that of your children? http://dorway.org/


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There is no evidence that suggests that maternal diet negatively affects breastmilk and to tell a nursing mother or would-be nursing mother that is does is irresponsible. It feeds the myth that nursing mothers must some how be 'better' than her FF counterpart.
There is evidence, it is just you choose not to acknowlege this fact. Stating the obvious that what we eat does impact our bodies is not being irrresponsible, to the contray you can empower mothers to take charge of their own health and that of their children. It is also not feeding the myth that nursing mothers must somehow be better than their ff conterparts. Everyone, if they care about their health and the health of their children needs to take nutrition and diet seriously. I feel you are closed to the issue, maybe to justify your own eating habits?

Diet for Pregnant and Nursing Mothers

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#66 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 04:44 PM
 
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Let's take this journey together:
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309043913/html/
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Does Maternal Nutritional Status Influence Milk Composition
The composition of human milk is distinct from the milk of other mammals and from infant formulas ordinarily derived from them. Human milk is unique in its physical structure, types and concentrations of macronutrients (protein, fat, and carbohydrate), micronutrients (vitamins and minerals), enzymes, hormones, growth factors, host resistance factors, inducers/modulators of the immune system, and anti-inflammatory agents.

A number of generalizations can be made about the effects of maternal nutrition on the composition of milk (see also Table 1-1):

Even if the usual dietary intake of a macronutrient is less than that recommended in Recommended Dietary Allowances (NRC, 1989), there will be little or no effect on the total amount of that nutrient in the milk. However, the proportions of the different fatty acids in human milk vary with maternal dietary intake.

The concentrations of major minerals (calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, and potassium) in human milk are not affected by the diet. Maternal intakes of selenium and iodine are positively related to their concentrations in human milk, but there is no convincing evidence that the concentrations of other trace elements in human milk are affected by maternal diet.

The vitamin content of human milk is dependent upon the mother's current vitamin intake and her vitamin stores, but the strength of the relationships varies with the vitamin. Chronically low maternal intake of vitamins may result in milk that contains low amounts of these essential nutrients.
TABLE 1-1 Possible Influences of Maternal Intake on the Nutrient Composition of Human Milk and Nutrients for Which Clinical Deficiency Is Recognizable in Infants

Nutrient or Nutrient Class
Effect of Maternal Intake on Milk Compositiona
Recognizable Nutritional Deficiency in Breastfed Infants

Macronutrients

Proteins
+
Unknownb

Lipids
+c
Unknown

Lactose
o
Unknown

Minerals

Calcium
o
Unknown

Phosphorus
o
Unknown

Magnesium
o
Unknown

Sodium
o
Unknown

Potassium
o
Unknown

Chlorine
o
Unknown

Iron
o
Yesd

Copper
o
Unknown

Zinc
+,o
Unknown

Manganese
+
Unknown

Selenium
+
Unknown

Iodine
+
Yes

Fluoride
+
Unknown

Vitamins

Vitamin C
+
Yes

Thiamin
+
Yes

Riboflavin
+
Unknown

Niacin
+
Unknown

Pantothenic acid
+
Unknown

Vitamin B6
+
Yes

Biotin
+
Yes

Folate
+
Yes

Vitamin B12
+
Yes

Vitamin A
+
Yes

Vitamin D
+
Yes

Vitamin E
+
Yes

Vitamin K
+
Yese

a + denotes a positive effect of intake on nutrient content of the milk. The magnitude of the effect varies widely among nutrients. o denotes no known effect of intake on nutrient content of the milk.

b Evidence is not sufficiently conclusive to categorize as ''No."

c Effect appears to be on type of fatty acids present but not on total content of triglycerides or cholesterol in the milk.

d Deficiency is not related to maternal intake.

e Maternal intake is not the primary determinant of the infant's vitamin K status.

The content of at least some nutrients in human milk may be maintained at a satisfactory level at the expense of maternal stores. This applies particularly to folate and calcium.

Increasing the mother's intake of a nutrient to levels above the RDA ordinarily does not result in unusually high levels of the nutrient in her milk; vitamins B6 and D, iodine, and selenium are exceptions. Studies have not been conducted to evaluate the possibility that high levels of nutrients in milk are toxic to the infant.

Some studies suggest that poor maternal nutrition is associated with decreased concentrations of certain host resistance factors in human milk, whereas other studies do not suggest this association.
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#67 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 04:49 PM
 
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T*annu ~

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You are confused with the work of Sally Fallon
No, I'm not. I quoted earlier in this discussion a homemade baby formula that encourages the use of raw milk. I got it directly from the Weston Price website if I recall correctly.

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There is evidence, it is just you choose not to acknowlege this fact.
No, I do not refuse to acknowledge this. No one here has shown me any evidence to disprove the evidence that I have provided in this thread. I have acknowledged that I will read this Weston Price book that has been brought up so many times. However, since I have not read a whole lot that has good things to say about Price, at this point I have to consider this information unreliable and not of a scientific nature.

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I am afraid your diet does not sound optimal for nourishing both your body and your child's. For a start do you know what you are consuming and passing on to your child by drinking diet soda? Have you any idea what aspartame does to your brain and that of your children? http://dorway.org/
I'm glad that you are in a position to judge. Why not gather your information from reliable sources? http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mo...tml#sweeteners --

Quote:
Nutrasweet (aspartame)
According to Hale (Medications and Mothers' Milk, 2004), Nutrasweet (aspartame) levels in mother's milk are too low to produce significant side effects in infants who do not have PKU (phenylketonuria). It IS contraindicated in babies with proven PKU. Hale lists aspartame in Lactation Risk Category L1 (safest), but L5 (contraindicated) if baby has PKU.
Do you know who Dr. Thomas Hale is? He is a leader in the field of human lactation, drugs and their effects on breastmilk.

If you want to believe that your breastmilk is better than mine because you don't drink an occasional diet soda then that is fine. I must say though, this is a whole new level of mothering competition that I've ever encountered.

ETA:
Quote:
I feel you are closed to the issue, maybe to justify your own eating habits?
I am not closed to the issue. I simply want someone to show me scientific proof that disproves all of the aboslute scientific proof that I have provided in this discussion. And *again*, I'm not talking about Weston Price. I have yet to see any evidence that his research is sound. If it is, please show me some of his research that has been peer-reviewed.
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#68 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:02 PM
 
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HearthElde ~ I'm going to read through what you just posted more closely but from what I skimmed, it looks like that with the exception of a few items, maternal diet has relatively little effect on quality of breastmilk. According to this - http://www.linkagesproject.org/media...QMatNutEng.pdf - a breastfeeding mother's diet need only be "adequate" to provide all of the vitamins and minerals that her nursing baby needs to thrive. But again, I'll look more into what you posted. I'm NAK now

It looks like you are more convinced that trans fats are more of an issue than basic maternal diet though. I will acknowledge that maternal consumption of trans fats can and does make it into her breastmilk (but at what level I'm not sure - I will look more into it), however according to Kelly of Kellymom.com, "I'm not aware of any research that says that the exclusively breastfed babies of mothers who eat transfats are at greater risk."

I apologize for the quick reply. I have bigger fish to fry at the moment
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#69 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HerthElde
GOOD SCIENCE IS ABOUT QUESTIONS/SEEKING ANSWERS, NOT ABOUT DRAWING RIGID CONCLUSIONS.
Whoops - I also realized that I didn't make it clear that this particular statement wasn't directed at anyone here, but was a statement on the state of much modern research which is, unfortunately, agenda-driven and not truly interested in truth.
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#70 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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Sorry for all the posts - I'm not nursing a baby anymore so I can finish a coherent thought, lol.

HealthElde ~ There is lots of evidence that tells us that if women think they'll need to do something outside of what they're normally used to then they won't even pursue breastfeeding in the first place, much less become an EBF'er:
http://breastfeed.com/resources/articles/haveitall.htm

I have personally encountered more than my fair share of women who felt that they had to maintain some sort of "special" diet in order to breastfeed. One woman in particular comes to mind. She choose to formula feed her baby because she thought that breastfeeding mother's had to eat special food that she could not afford to buy. To any of us we can see how ridiculous this decision really was. But for her it was a reality and she really thought she was doing better for her child by FF'ing him.

The thing is, the women who frequent this site and other internet parenting sites tend to be different than those who don't. We have read a wealth of information, been exposed to so many different lifestyles and have seen evidence of things that most others have not. You and I and probably everyone else here understands that parenthood is about self-sacrifice and change. So it's one thing for us here to decide that yes, we in fact need to eat better if we are breastfeeding (I'm not saying I believe this - I'm just making a point). It's an entirely different thing for us to tell a pregnant woman that we meet on the street that in order to provide good quality breastmilk to her baby that she must refrain from ever eating trans fats, junk food, soda, sugar, caffeine, etc. This will turn her off from ever breastfeeding in the first place. That said, I have never encountered a reputable breastfeeding site that encourages a poor diet in a breastfeeding mother. Rather they provide information from reputable sources and every ounce of it seems to point at the conclusion that maternal diet has little effect on the quality of her breastmilk and that mom's need not do anything special in order to provide for their baby.

Your posts to me did come off as rather aggressive but I appreciate your explanation. It is terribly difficult to convey your true meaning in this type of environment. And if you are super passionate about something then it's even harder still.
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#71 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by its_me_mona
T*annu ~



No, I'm not. I quoted earlier in this discussion a homemade baby formula that encourages the use of raw milk. I got it directly from the Weston Price website if I recall correctly.
With respect you are confused. The information on the Weston A Price website is Sally Fallon's POV not Weston A Price's who has been dead for more than 50 years. His work is contained in his book only and does NOT go into homemade baby formula. As I said, Fallon could not breastfed so she has some bias there. And even Sally Fallon for all her failings does not recommend raw milk formula over breatfeeding.


Quote:
No, I do not refuse to acknowledge this. No one here has shown me any evidence to disprove the evidence that I have provided in this thread. I have acknowledged that I will read this Weston Price book that has been brought up so many times. However, since I have not read a whole lot that has good things to say about Price, at this point I have to consider this information unreliable and not of a scientific nature.
Well, we will just have to disagree on this one. Francis M Pottenger Jr MD has a paper on the quality of breastmilk entitled, "Milk -- The importance of its source". I will try and find it online for you. He just has a couple of paragraphs alluding to this paper in his book, "Pottenger's Cats. A Study in Nutrition", chapter 9, pg49


QUOTE] The superiority of human milk for human babies is natural. Human milk is rich in structural proteins, fats, hormones, enzymes and vitamins essential for the optimum growth of the human brain as well as body. Its exact formula remains a secret and has not been duplicated in the laboratory.

Alterations in the metabolism of a mother can quickly reflect in the health of her nursing infant. A deficient mother will have deficient milk and when her diet is improved, the improvement will affert her milk.[/QUOTE]



Quote:
I'm glad that you are in a position to judge. Why not gather your information from reliable sources? http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mo...tml#sweeteners --



Do you know who Dr. Thomas Hale is? He is a leader in the field of human lactation, drugs and their effects on breastmilk.

If you want to believe that your breastmilk is better than mine because you don't drink an occasional diet soda then that is fine. I must say though, this is a whole new level of mothering competition that I've ever encountered.
The links on kellymom are laughable, Aspartame is posion, end of story. I do know who Hale is and quite frankly and his work is valuable, but I don't believe any pharmaceutical drug is safe to take while breastfeeding whatever the concentrations and especially known excitotoxins like Aspartame and MSG. I know several LLL leaders who have left because of the LLL's very lenient stance on breastfeeding and pharmaceuticals. It is the politics of breast feeding getting in the way of common sense again.

You are getting very defensive here. I did not say my breastmilk was better than yours. :

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#72 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:41 PM
 
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Kellymom is not a scientific source. It is a wonderful source for breastfeeding information for the most part.
Weston Price did his research in the '30s. The Weston Price website is not run by him, the articles were not written by him. He did not say what we and our children should eat, but what healthy traditional societies at the time did eat.
Formula is crap. I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with that. There are so many factors in breastmilk that we aren't even aware of yet, not to mention the ones that we are can not be replicated in any kitchen or lab, and unless I truly had no choice I would never take the risk of giving my children anything but my milk no matter what my diet was like.
The table in the post lost its formatting, but what it indicates is that maternal intake of specific vitamins and minerals either have and effect in some cases, and in others it is unknown whether they have an effect.
Also the Standard American Diet, as it is referred to here, typically does NOT provide adequate nutrients.
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#73 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:51 PM
 
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And right from Kellymom:
http://kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/vitamins.html
Quote:
Studies have shown that when a mother is deficient in a certain nutrient, improving the mother's nutrition and/or supplementing her diet (multivitamins, etc.) may be as effective or more effective than giving her baby vitamin supplements.
You know, I just realized something that never struck me before. I bet we have differing views on vitamin pills. I believe that due to bioavailability of natural vitamins (that means obtained from food, not pills), one should be getting ALL nutrients from diet, not supplements. I believe all supplements can lead to problems, especially fat soluble vitamins. Am I right, is this our differing point when it comes to interpreting the research?
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#74 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 05:57 PM
 
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I would love to read the article that you posted about and I will go and look for it.

The links on kellymom are laughable? Did you even read it? Because it linked to a statement made by Dr. Hale (that I quoted). So you are really saying then that Dr. Hale's work is laughable. If you want to disregard the scientific work of Dr. Hale and trust instead the unscientific work of the Weston Price foundation then that is fine. But I just want people who are reading this thread to know that one is reliable (the former) while the other is not (the latter). You do realize that Dr. Hale's studies are based on consumption of the drug followed by close measurements of the drug in milk, right?

How would you expect me to take a statement of "I am afraid your diet does not sound optimal for nourishing both your body and your child's." Followed by a "For starters...". Should I take it as constructive criticsm? You meant it to be insulting and I duly took it as an insult. So yes, I got a bit defensive.

I'd like to know how many LLL Leader's have left LLL because of LLL's lenient stance on drugs & breastfeeding? How many is "several"? Perhaps these mother's should have realized just what LLL is all about PRIOR to becoming Leaders. You must subscribe to the LLL Philosophies in order to be a Leader. No where in those philosophies does it talk about drugs and breastfeeding. LLL doesn't even take a stance on drugs & breastfeeding other than to endorse Dr. Hale's work. In fact, Leaders may provide drug information verbatim from Hale's but LLL encourages breastfeeding mother's to discuss the issue with their healthcare provider.

And in reference to the information regarding raw milk. So you are saying that the information I got off of the Weston Price website is not the opinion of the Weston Price Foundation? Color me confused then!
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#75 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 06:04 PM
 
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Kellymom is not a scientific source.
Check her sources. Her website was developed to provide evidence-based information. I always check where her information comes from and it comes from reputable, scientific sources. So while Kelly herself may not be a scientist or being doing any research herself, she gets her information from those who are.

Regarding our differing interpretations of the research that is available, I don't know that I ever considered taking a vitamin supplement to be just as good as getting those vitamins directly from food. I have always thought that the best way was through food.
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#76 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 06:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by its_me_mona
Check her sources. Her website was developed to provide evidence-based information.
As are many of the references on the WAPF website.

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I always check where her information comes from and it comes from reputable, scientific sources.
But that doesn't mean it's an exhaustive list of all available resources. On top of that, one doesn't get a true indication of the reliability of a scientific study just from reading an abstract. There are a lot of inconsistencies in a lot of studies - it's pretty mind-boggling, actually.
With specific regard to aspartame, what is interesting is on one hand you have studies that show "normal" dosages of aspartame don't cause problems, while "high" dosages do. There are also studies which show that because aspartame is not metabolized by the body, it builds up in the body. But there are no studies that connect the two! And it would probably be extremely difficult to set up such a study. So instead there are opinion papers which link the two, but these are disregarded as "unscientific" because there aren't specific studies to back them up. It's bizarre.

Quote:
Regarding our differing interpretations of the research that is available, I don't know that I ever considered taking a vitamin supplement to be just as good as getting those vitamins directly from food. I have always thought that the best way was through food.
In that case, wouldn't you have to conclude that mom's diet would have a direct impact on the micronutrients available in her milk? And isn't the presence or absence of those micronutrients what defines the quality of her milk? So wouldn't you then further have to conclude that diet does have an impact on the quality of mother's milk?
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#77 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 06:40 PM
 
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As are many of the references on the WAPF website.
I'm a bit (ok, a lot) unclear about the WAPF website. I found something on that website earlier in this discussion and have since been told that the info on that website is really from a person named Sally Fallon. I haven't looked around the site much to see any references but also, no one in this discussion who wants me to consider the information from there has linked to any either.

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But that doesn't mean it's an exhaustive list of all available resources.
I never said or even implied that it was. Only that her information is reliable. Again, no one in this discussion has really attempted to provide information outside of the WAPF though. My argument is that maternal diet has relatively little impact on the quality of her breastmilk therefore you'll see me posting evidence that supports this. It is up to those of you on the other side of the fence to post to the contrary

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In that case, wouldn't you have to conclude that mom's diet would have a direct impact on the micronutrients available in her milk? And isn't the presence or absence of those micronutrients what defines the quality of her milk? So wouldn't you then further have to conclude that diet does have an impact on the quality of mother's milk
What I conclude is that except in the most dire of maternal malnutrition, the quality of her breastmilk is unaffected. I do not believe that there are varying qualities of breastmilk, generally speaking. Again, severe maternal malnutrition aside. And my conclusions come not from what feels like common sense to me but from the research I've read.
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#78 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 07:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by its_me_mona


I'd like to know how many LLL Leader's have left LLL because of LLL's lenient stance on drugs & breastfeeding? How many is "several"? Perhaps these mother's should have realized just what LLL is all about PRIOR to becoming Leaders. You must subscribe to the LLL Philosophies in order to be a Leader. No where in those philosophies does it talk about drugs and breastfeeding. LLL doesn't even take a stance on drugs & breastfeeding other than to endorse Dr. Hale's work. In fact, Leaders may provide drug information verbatim from Hale's but LLL encourages breastfeeding mother's to discuss the issue with their healthcare provider.
I know personally of three leaders. They felt unable to remain leaders because they felt they could not endorse Dr Hale's work.

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And in reference to the information regarding raw milk. So you are saying that the information I got off of the Weston Price website is not the opinion of the Weston Price Foundation? Color me confused then!
Yes, and No. The information on the Price Foundation is based on the work of Weston A Price. Again, READ THE BOOK which is his work, Gale Force has made you a great offer, take her up on it.

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#79 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 07:17 PM
 
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Okay, first of all, why do you no longer wear combat boots? Myself, I traded 'em in for Haflinger clogs, much more comfy
In regards to the Weston Price foundation website: Sally Fallon is the president of the website. She is only one of several people who have articles on the site (and, as a few have stated her, had trouble with breastfeeding (though she did for a short time), and therefore seems to have a personal bias about breastfeeding and does not provide adequate information and in some cases the conclusions she draws are pretty far out in left field). Many of the articles on the site are full of references, some from scientific sources, some not. Here's a link to an article on fats in human milk http://www.westonaprice.org/children/humanmilk.html This article was written by Mary Enig, one of the world's formost lipid biochemists, and contains references from a scientific journal.
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I never said or even implied that it was. Only that her information is reliable. Again, no one in this discussion has really attempted to provide information outside of the WAPF though.
Ah, but this is part of my point. How reliable is something, really, if the list of references is not all-inclusive? Is it a springboard? Absolutely, but it's not the be all and end all.
I believe I did provide a couple references outside the WAPF. One from kellymom, in fact. Others have as well.
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What I conclude is that except in the most dire of maternal malnutrition, the quality of her breastmilk is unaffected. I do not believe that there are varying qualities of breastmilk, generally speaking.
Maybe we define quality differently. Macronutrients include carbohydrates, proteins and fats. Micronutrients are everything else (vitamins, minerals, etc). As the references I provided state, many micronutrients in breastmilk vary with mom's diet. IMO, concentrations of these micronutrients are part of how "quality" is defined. There are differences between "good enough" and "optimum".
I'm not saying we have to tell mothers they need to be perfect. I myself am known to eat a doughnut or six from time to time (I'm Canadian, I think it's a national requirement ). But to tell mothers that their diet doesn't affect the quality of their milk is a lie, and I do believe it does a disservice to women and their babies. Now again, I suppose maybe it is a question of how one defines "quality".
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#80 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 07:43 PM
 
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I just wanted to say that the diet for pregnant and lactating women promoted by that Weston Price website just seems crazy to me. I have other problems with that organization and the things they promote but frankly I'm amazed that anyone would recommend that diet as an ideal guide for pregnancy and breastfeeding.

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#81 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 07:49 PM
 
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I just wanted to say that the diet for pregnant and lactating women promoted by that Weston Price website just seems crazy to me. I have other problems with that organization and the things they promote but frankly I'm amazed that anyone would recommend that diet as an ideal guide for pregnancy and breastfeeding.
Could you elaborate on why you think the diet is crazy?

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#82 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 07:49 PM
 
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There are differences between "good enough" and "optimum".....
Now again, I suppose maybe it is a question of how one defines "quality".
Just jumping in at lightening speed, but I think this is where the issue lies. And I would consider most people to be "severely malnourished."


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Originally Posted by HerthElde
I'm not saying we have to tell mothers they need to be perfect. I myself am known to eat a doughnut or six from time to time .
Me too. It's about trying to improve and do better.

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#83 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 07:59 PM
 
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trans fatty acids in mother's milk and other fat composition variations and their effects [note:these are just abstracts, so they in no way tell the whole story]:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...01&query_hl=15
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...34&query_hl=15
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...00&query_hl=15
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...83&query_hl=15
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...34&query_hl=15
Interestingly, one of the above studies showed that DHA levels in breastmilk resulted in no long term beneficial health effects. From a reliable scientific source. Hmmmmm.
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#84 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 08:04 PM
 
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Not what I was looking for and only slightly relevant, but I am heartbroken that this study was done:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...95&query_hl=27
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#85 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 08:42 PM
 
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Multiple micronutrients in pregnancy and lactation: an overview.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...53&query_hl=34
"Iron and vitamin B-12 are included as examples to stress how status at conception affects maternal, fetal, and infant status and health until the child is weaned.... multiple micronutrient deficiencies occur simultaneously when diets are poor. ... In lactation, maternal status or intake of the B vitamins (except folate), vitamin A, selenium and iodine strongly affect the amount of these nutrients secreted in breast milk. This can result in the infant consuming substantially less than the recommended amounts and further depleting stores that were low at birth."

Maternal micronutrient malnutrition: effects on breast milk and infant nutrition, and priorities for intervention.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...31&query_hl=36
"Lactating women are more likely to experience micronutrient deficiencies than a shortage of dietary energy or protein. Micronutrient deficiencies are also more likely to affect breastmilk composition and the development and nutritional status of breastfeeding infants. Dietary interventions or supplementation can increase the secretion of many of these nutrients in breast milk and improve infant nutritional status.

The author offers a table summarizing how maternal deficiency of specific micronutrients affects their concentration in breast milk"

Concurrent micronutrient deficiencies in lactating mothers and their infants in Indonesia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...54&query_hl=36
"CONCLUSIONS: Micronutrient deficiencies were prevalent in West Java. The micronutrient status of lactating mothers and that of their infants were closely related; breast milk was a key connecting factor for vitamin A status. Furthermore, concurrent micronutrient deficiencies appeared to be the norm."

Micronutrient deficiency in children.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...11&query_hl=36
"Malnutrition increases morbidity and mortality and affects physical growth and development, some of these effects resulting from specific micronutrient deficiencies."

Fat-soluble vitamins in the maternal diet, influence of cod liver oil supplementation and impact of the maternal diet on human milk composition.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...49&query_hl=36
"There is a relationship between the content of vitamins A and E in human milk and the maternal diet. "

Diet during lactation associated with infant behavior and caregiver-infant interaction in a semirural Egyptian village.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...65&query_hl=36
"...inadequate diet of the mother was the major risk factor…Breast milk did not have adequate amounts of vitamin B-6 and, perhaps, not even enough riboflavin and vitamin A."
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#86 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 08:47 PM
 
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Lipid content and essential fatty acid (EFA) composition of mature Congolese breast milk are influenced by mothers' nutritional status: impact on infants' EFA supply.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...300&query_hl=6
"Optimum infant growth and development, especially neurodevelopment and visual acuity, require sufficient n-6 and n-3 essential fatty acid supplies from the placenta or breast milk.
CONCLUSIONS: Lipid content and FA composition of Congolese breast milk were dependent on mother's nutritional status."

Dietary fat type influences total milk fat content in lean women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...072&query_hl=6
"Data from a growing literature suggest that some Trans Fatty Acids (TFA) decrease milk fat in lactating animals…. In summary, consumption of regular margarine, compared with low TFA margarine, decreased milk fat in lean women."

Milk fat depression in C57Bl/6J mice consuming partially hydrogenated fat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...791&query_hl=6
"The possible involvement of TFA in the classical milk fat depression phenomenon in ruminants and its potential relevance in human lactation are discussed."

Lipid content and essential fatty acid (EFA) composition of mature Congolese breast milk are influenced by mothers' nutritional status: impact on infants' EFA supply.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...00&query_hl=15
"CONCLUSIONS: Lipid content and FA composition of Congolese breast milk were dependent on mother's nutritional status…. Since the essential fatty acid content of traditional complementary foods is lower than that present in breast milk, Congolese mothers should be encouraged to postpone the introduction of such foods until their infant is 4-6 months old."
(Jane note: ie postpone eating of junk food, doughnuts were mentioned)

Fatty acid composition of human milk in Western Iran.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...08&query_hl=13
"CONCLUSIONS: The milk from Iranian lactating mothers, as compared to that from the American or European mothers, contained high levels of medium-chain and trans fatty acids. This difference may be attributed to the maternal diet with low animal protein and animal fat but with high carbohydrate and partially hydrogenated vegetable oils that carry large amounts of trans fatty acids. As the detrimental effects of trans fatty acids on blood lipids and cardiovascular diseases have been emphasized in the literature, a reduction of trans fatty acid content in the diet of Iranian mothers is suggested."

Trans, n-3, and n-6 fatty acids in Canadian human milk.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...34&query_hl=15
"The presence of trans fatty acids in human milk may be a concern because of their possible adverse nutritional and physiological effects on the recipient infant. The mother's diet is the source of human milk trans fatty acids."

Trans fatty acids in human milk in Poland and their association with breastfeeding mothers' diets.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...86&query_hl=15
"CONCLUSIONS: Bakery products, confectionery and snacks are a major source of trans fatty acids in maternal diet in Poland. The levels of trans fatty acids in human milk may reflect the current diet of the mother as well as the diet consumed early in pregnancy."

Fatty acid composition of human milk in Kuwaiti mothers.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...03&query_hl=15
"Mothers reporting a high fish consumption showed significant amounts of C22:6, omega 3 and C20:5, omega 3 fatty acids. As a general conclusion, breast milk produced by a well nourished mother is better suited to meet the lipid requirements of infants."
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#87 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 11:09 PM
 
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I think that diet is crazy because it hardly has mentions any plant/vegetables and for someone like me who is lactose intolerant, it's a recipe for being incredibly sick. It's clear that one can be very healthy while pregnant and lactating and can have very healthy children on a plant based diet. The Price Foundation has a problem with soy basically labelling it as poison but then promotes eating every kind of animal product under the son. Crazy in my opinion.

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#88 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 11:40 PM
 
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WAPF diet for pregnant and bf'ing mamas does mention fruits and veggies. Including lacto fermented veggies. http://www.westonaprice.org/children...ormothers.html

Although it is not stated here specifically, WAPF places a lot of emphasis on consuming raw food as a largest part of your diet: including raw and lacto-fermented produce and dairy. This explains a little more about the reasoning behind their recommendations:
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...teristics.html

RE: vegetarianism
Weston Price's research on native diets has show that it is not healthy to be on a plant based diet. Not one society that he found that was vegetarian was healthy. And he really tried.
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...ets/index.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstru...tarianism.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...tarianism.html

Price's research of native diets, which contained a great deal of animal products, were the best sources of vital nutrients for building healthy, disease free, bodies and cavity free teeth.

There are specific reasons for warning about soy
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Before you tar and feather WAPF, you might want to do a little more reading. Many of my previous beliefs about healthy eating (and today's "politically correct" nutritional advice) were completely false.
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstru...nutrition.html

Such as canola oil is quite unhealthy, see "The Great Con-ola" here:
http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

The only source of true vitamin A is in animal products: butter, eggs, cream, liver, that is why specific fats are especially recommended for pg and bf mamas.
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnut...aminasaga.html

Very good summation of Price's research
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...ry_wisdom.html
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#89 of 219 Old 09-24-2005, 11:56 PM
 
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Telling her to eat better . . . is only going to discourage her from continuing to breastfeed because she'll perceive it as being too difficult.
I finally figured out why this statement bothers me so much. When dd was about 2 days old, my milk still hadn't come in and she spent much of her time nursing. She fell asleep at the breast, and continued to suckle. You know, normal things newborns do to stimulate breastmilk production. Well, my mother was there for her birth and was staying with us for a few days to help out, and you know what she said? She said "Don't nurse her for more than 10 minutes a side, it's not necessary. You should take her off the breast she's sleeping. Your body will adjust. No wonder so many women don't continue to breastfeed - if they think the baby has to nurse for so long, they perceive it as being too difficult."
Well, I listened to her. For the remainder of the day. Then my brain kicked in and I realized that what she said was contrary to my instinct. My milk took a while to come in, and I believe that day's experience was a part of why. I'm still a little irritated with myself that I let her sway me.
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#90 of 219 Old 09-25-2005, 12:12 AM
 
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Jane S, I'm not tarring and feathering them . . . I'm just saying that in my opinion prescribing that type of diet for pregnant and lactating women is crazy. Fruits and vegetables are at the BOTTOM of that list so even if they do promote eating raw, it seems that it's not for pregnant women. And for people like me who are lactose intolerant, this prescribed diet is almost impossible. So it's crazy to me to say that this is a good way to go about trying to get my nutrients. And yes, you can be very healthy on a plant based diet . . . I can only imagine the kind of constipation one who follows that diet has.

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