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#121 of 219 Old 09-25-2005, 09:52 PM
 
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Sorry this has to be quick, I'm not even able to read all of other excellent posts here today.

Re: thinner noses

Yes, narrowed nostrils, narrow faces, crowded teeth caused by narrow dental arches are signs of incomplete facial development hampered by nutrition. And yes, it's hard to believe. Until you see the pictures over and over again. In many different races and ethnicities around the globe. It's truly mind blowing.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...ry_wisdom.html

It's why I brought up my personal story of me, my sister and brother all needing braces. Not to prove it by anecdote, but to make it more personal. The research has already been done over 60 years ago to prove it.
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#122 of 219 Old 09-25-2005, 10:05 PM
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Jumping in.... he was talking about facial bone structure. If you look at the comparison pictures, there is an obvious difference in facial bone structure, including the nose, mouth, teeth, etc. according to health and diet of the mother. Think of a cleft palate. Do you think that is a fluke, or due to the fetus not having what it needs or being subjected to a toxin?
There is a great deal of info that cannot be condensed in this thread, and IMO, a whole lot of research that one shouldn't even try to condense, because it doesn't do justice to that information or the effort put into the research, kwim? IMO, those of us on the WAP side can't convince you of anything, and shouldn't even try. All we can do is say "Here. Read this for yourself. Look at these pictures."

edited for typo & spelling
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#123 of 219 Old 09-25-2005, 10:07 PM
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sorry, cross-posted!
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#124 of 219 Old 09-25-2005, 10:46 PM
 
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RE: cleft palate

Maternal nutritional status and the risk for orofacial cleft offspring in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...283&query_hl=1
"...a higher preconceptional intake of nutrients predominantly present in fruits and vegetables reduces the risk of offspring affected by OFC."

There's a ton more similar studies that can be had by clicking the "Related Articles" link at the right.
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#125 of 219 Old 09-26-2005, 12:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by toraji
If it does, then are we responsible for telling women this information even though it may discourage them from breastfeeding?
Here are my thoughts:

-We have no qualms about telling women to nurse on cue rather than on a schedule (which may be seen as inconvenient)

-We have no qualms about discussing the benefits of cosleeping with regards to breastfeeding (which may be seen as inconvenient)

-We have no qualms about discussing the benefits of babywearing with regards to breastfeeding (which may be seen as inconvenient)

-We have no qualms about telling a woman to nurse her baby as long as he/she needs to, not for 10 minutes a side (which may be seen as inconvenient)

-We have no qualms about telling a woman she may need to nurse more than once per side in some cases, which results in lopsidedness (which may be seen as inconvenient)

-We have no qualms about telling a woman who is having trouble with supply to try expressing in addition to fully nursing to get her supply up (which may be seen as inconvenient)

Also:
-We have no qualms about telling a woman during pregnancy to watch her nutrient intake.




So why is one more thing which may be considered incovenient so taboo?
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#126 of 219 Old 09-26-2005, 02:20 AM
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this has been bothering me and I can't stop thinking about it... why is it ok to underestimate women instead of educating them? whose right is it to decide what is good enough in this debate over adequate vs. optimum nutrition? if you make the decision to withhold information because you are afraid a woman will not breastfeed, you are deciding for her what is good enough for her baby... rather than offering information, letting her decide what is valid to her and what isn't, letting her decide what is good enough for her baby and what isn't. Why assume women are too lazy to go to the trouble, or not bright enough to figure all this out for themselves? If certain women want to disregard information once it is presented, fine. But that is a decision they should make... it shouldn't be made for them as a matter of policy.
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#127 of 219 Old 09-26-2005, 07:22 PM
 
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why is it ok to underestimate women instead of educating them? whose right is it to decide what is good enough in this debate over adequate vs. optimum nutrition? if you make the decision to withhold information because you are afraid a woman will not breastfeed, you are deciding for her what is good enough for her baby... rather than offering information, letting her decide what is valid to her and what isn't, letting her decide what is good enough for her baby and what isn't. Why assume women are too lazy to go to the trouble, or not bright enough to figure all this out for themselves?
I will presume that since I seem to be the only voice of dissent in this thread that you are assuming that it is me making such implications. That is not what I'm saying at all.

You might want to take a look at statistics and look at the reasons why women choose not to breastfeed. I'm telling you, one reason they choose not to breastfeed is because they think they're going to have to change the way they eat.

My argument is NOT that we should not tell mother's that they need to maintain a diet different than what they might if they weren't breastfeeding. My argument is that we should not be telling them this IF there is no data to back the claim up. If the evidence clearly shows that there are indeed varying qualities of breastmilk based on maternal diet, then yes, I would agree that women should be given this information.

Do you believe that there's some sort of conspiracy going on in this world to keep said information from women? If so, why? I'm having difficulty understanding why the current advice being given is to tell mother's that they do not need to eat differently while breastfeeding if it simply is not true. Why do we tell mother's this?

THAT SAID, I am KINDLY asking that you take into consideration that the above statements are made without having read any of the links provided by JaneS, HerthElde or the WAP book. I am at work today and this is the first time I've checked this thread since becoming thoroughly disgusted with it yesterday. I'm surprised that I came back for more, lol.

Thank you.
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#128 of 219 Old 09-26-2005, 07:31 PM
 
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Carol, I don't think she was referring to you personally, I think it was a question based on the stance of most breastfeeding organizations.

BTW, I'm glad you're back.
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#129 of 219 Old 09-27-2005, 12:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
However, the book review made me about Weston Price. People have thinner noses because of their diet?? I mean, that just doesn't make sense to me. Broader noses mean people are healthier??
Elizabeth -- I know it all sounds crazy and that's partly why it's so powerful when you read it. You will never look at people in the same way again. You will never look at your own food in the same way again.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#130 of 219 Old 09-27-2005, 10:59 PM
 
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Consumption of vitamin A by breastfeeding children in rural Kenya.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...269&query_hl=2
"Vitamin A deficiency remains a significant health risk in developing countries, affecting infants and children in particular. To counter child malnutrition, mothers are encouraged to breastfeed to ensure that their children receive adequate macro- and micronutrients, including vitamin A. However, this assumes that the mother has sufficient vitamin A intake to provide enough vitamin A to her child...The primary source of vitamin A for infants younger than six months was breast-milk deficient in retinol vitamin A. This study suggests that in this rural community, breastfed infants may not receive appropriate foods with high vitamin A content and that although exclusive breastfeeding is advocated, most breast milk is deficient in retinol, further heightening the risk of vitamin A deficiency."

Vitamin B-12 deficiency is very prevalent in lactating Guatemalan women and their infants at three months postpartum.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...952&query_hl=2
"We conclude that vitamin B-12 deficiency is highly prevalent in these lactating women and is associated with depletion of the vitamin in their infants. The cause of the maternal deficiency is unknown, but malabsorption exacerbated by low dietary intake of the vitamin is a possibility."

Vitamin B-12: low milk concentrations are related to low serum concentrations in vegetarian women and to methylmalonic aciduria in their infants.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...84&query_hl=13

Concurrent micronutrient deficiencies in lactating mothers and their infants in Indonesia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...54&query_hl=13
"BACKGROUND: Deficiencies of vitamin A, iron, and zinc are prevalent worldwide, affecting vulnerable groups such as lactating women and infants. However, the existence of concurrent deficiencies has received little attention.
CONCLUSIONS: ... The micronutrient status of lactating mothers and that of their infants were closely related; breast milk was a key connecting factor for vitamin A status. Furthermore, concurrent micronutrient deficiencies appeared to be the norm."
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#131 of 219 Old 09-28-2005, 11:49 AM
 
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I agree completely with the eating more protein advice. Avoiding trans fats would be very good...you can still get lots of goodies without them if you go to a natural food market.
Also, the stuff gets into your milk. Doctors and scientists can research it all they want, but as moms, we know that if you pay attention to your babies mood and the physical stuff (gas, poop, pee, oily skin, etc...), you can definitely see it. Caffiene keeps babies up, and it's also not good for their kidneys. If it's coffee that you're drinking, you could switch to decaf and try and cut back. I was a monster coffee drinker before I got pregs, now I do a cup of decaf about 3 or 4 times a week. If it's soda you're drinking...you should probably try and get that to a minimum. The carbon dioxide in carbonated beverages will eat your bones away (leading cause of osteoporosis in teenage girls!). The sugar will also eat away at your calcium.
One thing to think about here that goes beyond breastmilk is that this could be a good time to start putting together healthy eating habits and routines, because you probably want to teach those to the babe when it's time for them to eat. If you continue to eat like this, your child will also eat like this.
I try to eat lots of good fats: avocado, coconut, butter, organic lard, whole milk, fish oils, nuts, etc... cause this makes for good fatty breastmilk, which means they are well fed, and nurse less.
Also, taking herbs can supplement your milk: fenugreek, fennel, chamomile, red raspberry leaf. Eating oatmeal makes for good milk too.
I have a major sweet tooth, and I've had to curb it for pregnancy and nursing. I would eat REALLY bad stuff: nerds, licorice ropes, jolly ranchers, life savers...tons of crap every day. I absolutely agree eating protein helps with the cravings, as does excersize...even stretching for 5 minutes at a time.
If you must eat sugar, try to eat better sugars, like honey, maple syrup and sucanat (dehydrated cane juice). These sugars still have vitamins left in them, so they don't need to pull out of your bodies reserves to be processed.
A great book is Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon. I think you can get it on Amazon pretty cheap. She's got tons of info about fats, protiens, sugars, etc... and lots of recipes. Everything I've ever made from the book has been delicious. There are really good dessert recipes which don't use white flour or refined sugars.
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#132 of 219 Old 09-28-2005, 07:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
.

Re: thinner noses

Yes, narrowed nostrils, narrow faces, crowded teeth caused by narrow dental arches are signs of incomplete facial development hampered by nutrition. And yes, it's hard to believe. Until you see the pictures over and over again. In many different races and ethnicities around the globe. It's truly mind blowing.
I've been thinking about this statement for a little while now but I haven't had the chance to post. No, I haven't read the book and with a new baby, I'm not sure when I 'll get the chance. I did look at the pictures though. They are quite interesting. However, I'm not convinced by the arguments presented here that inadequate nutrition somehow leads to narrowed nostrils and narrow faces. People of color generally have wide flat noses and wider faces, fuller lips, thicker hair. These are all, in my opinion, adaptations to the environments where one lives. E.g. a thinner nose is probably more suited to a higher altitude in terms of getting air/oxygen more efficiently than a flat nose. It would better for a native of Alaska to have a wider nose/face and stockier bodier to deal with the elements there better. However, if indigenous people mix with people who have narrow noses and narrow faces, i.e. White people like through colonialization/immigration etc, then the features get more mixed up and a person of color might end up with a narrow nose, lighter hair/eyes, etc. I can kind of see how crowded teeth could be a result of malnutrion but the narrow nose and narrow face . . . I think that's a bit of a stretch. From the pictures it looks like the flat nosed/straight teeth person never mixed with a person of a different group i.e. has "pure" genes. Again, I haven't read the book and the previous posters haven't really explained how nutrition and narrow nose/face are related (how one actually causes the other) so maybe with some further explanation this might actually make some sense. But as a person of color, it just sounds really silly.

Oh and if Price really does use that word "primitive" in his writing (I read stuff from the website) that I don't really want to read his stuff because I know his angle is already skewed. Oh and also in certain places such as where I'm originally from, there are no cows so certain things such as raw dairy (cream, cheese, milk) were not and still are not a part of the traditional diet. There are goats but people don't drink the milk. Mostly the diet is chicken, fish, eggs, lots of vegetables and fruits, and occasionally goat meat. So to me, the Price arguments starts to fall apart little by little because all of us have wide noses and wide faces.

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Nirvana is . . . the living happiness of a soul which is conscious of itself and conscious of having found its own abode in the heart of the Eternal. --Gandhi
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#133 of 219 Old 09-28-2005, 07:22 PM
 
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rootzdawta, I am also a non-white mama. The "primitive" wording was popular terminology when the book was written, back in the 30's in America. There is a big disclaimer in the beginning of the Price book explaining that while his terminology may not be PC for modern times, they felt it would be more detrimental to edit and reword his text than to just leave it in its entirety. Price is long dead, but the confusion that he is still alive and authoring articles is due to the name of the Weston A. Price Foundation which is headed by Sally Fallon (author of Nourishing Traditions) and others. She is the one who promotes dairy, not Dr. Price.

If you do read the book, the feeling is indescribable. Things that I used to take for granted, like thinking that wider faces were due to being of "pure" stock and not mixing with whites, and that narrower faces were somehow more desireable and refined, all got thrown out the window. The pictures show parents both white and non-white with wide, robust faces, and the children after the parents started eating refined foods and sugar. The children do not have the wide faces and jaws of their parents. Shouldn't this be, according to popular theory, a genetic trait passed down? Yes there is some variation due to racial differences, but you can definitely see the faces of the children becoming narrower. It does not matter what color you are. The pictures of the children tell the truth.
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#134 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 12:51 AM
 
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I've also noticed an increase in my energy levels, and overall health after following this diet. My husband is lactose intolerant, but if we buy RAW unpasteurized milk, he has no problems with it. I'm not sure why, but it was one of Fallon's recommendations.
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#135 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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you can definitely see the faces of the children becoming narrower. It does not matter what color you are.

So what precisely is the causal agent in this narrowing of the face, and is it observable? Can one's face grow appreciably narrower or wider in their own lifetime? Or is the wideness/narrowness of one's face based on one's parents' diet somehow affecting the expression of the genes...? Someone please explain this to me because I just don't get it. I looked at the pictures on the website and I'm still ...it doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
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#136 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 04:15 PM
 
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I'm not sure why, but it was one of Fallon's recommendations.
It's because raw milk naturally contains lactase.
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#137 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 04:35 PM
 
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Hi Toraji . I'm truly not trying to argue with you all again :LOL since I avoid the nutrition board here now to avoid that!

I haven't read this entire thread, but it does seem to be taking the approach of 'animal products are necessary for good breastmilk' and you know how I feel about that :LOL ! My face is probably fairly narrow; I'm blond, white, etc. I don't know if I can blame my face structure on my mom's diet, but it hasn't caused me any problems and I look more or less like all of my relatives for the past few generations (haven't seen any before that). I needed braces for a gap btwn my front teeth, but didn't have major orthodonture. I wasn't breastfed and ate probably a half-way decent diet as a child.

Our kids dentist has told us that being of mixed heritage is a more important determinant of whether you will have crowded teeth, etc. than anything else. He says that those people who are pure-blooded whatever tend to have pretty straight teeth. Only my older dd (7) has started loosing teeth and growing permanent teeth in thus far. She's almost 3/4 Italian and 1/4+ whatever other European decent that I am (German, English, who knows).

Of the 6 permanent teeth that she has thus far, I am amazed at how straight they are. I keep knocking on wood, but the dentist says that she may be one of the fortunate few who needs no orthodontics. We are vegan. I was vegan for 10 years prior to conceiving dd#1.

One area that really does bug me about Sally Fallon's writings is that she has very clearly articulated that she doesn't think that women who are vegetarian should breastfeed b/c our milk is inferior. I truly have not seen any indication of that in my children. They are healthy, they don't have any of the facial problems that she asserts will come about from lack of animal products (dd#2 has a wider face than dd#1 -- she looks more like dh -- but they are both very normal looking), and my older dd is so smart that it just blows me away. She hit the cap on the literacy test that they gave the second graders a month ago (12th grade).

I'm sure that good nutrition during bf is important just like good nutrition is important during pregnancy, but I would hate to discourage any woman from bf by making her feel that she needed to achieve some level of perfection in her diet in order to make good breastmilk for her baby. I also don't care for the one size fits all approach that holds that there are some specific products that must be included in one's diet in order to breastfeed.
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#138 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 04:44 PM
 
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I'm sure that good nutrition during bf is important just like good nutrition is important during pregnancy, but I would hate to discourage any woman from bf by making her feel that she needed to achieve some level of perfection in her diet in order to make good breastmilk for her baby. I also don't care for the one size fits all approach that holds that there are some specific products that must be included in one's diet in order to breastfeed.
I agree. I think the gist of my stance is this: formula is *always* inferior to breastmilk. But a healthier diet in the mother *can* make a healthier baby than an unhealthy diet (not always the case, it depends on just how strong mom's constitution is to begin with).
I think, as far as nutrition goes, that what is the healthiest way to eat is up for debate, and while I have no qualms about sharing my *own* successes, I encourage people to do their own research on both sides of the story and come to their own conclusion. There is no one-size fits all diet - we all have different genetic backgrounds and live in different places with different climates. And we all know that there are many many perspectives even within the mainstream medical community about what constitutes an optimum diet, let alone with those of us that take a more holistic approach.
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#139 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 04:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HerthElde
I agree. I think the gist of my stance is this: formula is *always* inferior to breastmilk. But a healthier diet in the mother *can* make a healthier baby than an unhealthy diet (not always the case, it depends on just how strong mom's constitution is to begin with).
I think, as far as nutrition goes, that what is the healthiest way to eat is up for debate, and while I have no qualms about sharing my *own* successes, I encourage people to do their own research on both sides of the story and come to their own conclusion. There is no one-size fits all diet - we all have different genetic backgrounds and live in different places with different climates. And we all know that there are many many perspectives even within the mainstream medical community about what constitutes an optimum diet, let alone with those of us that take a more holistic approach.
Okay. I can agree with that , especially the part about formula always being inferior.

I worked as a researcher for a USDA funded nutrition program for a while and I, too, was driven to distraction by the govt message of 'there are no bad foods.' I, too, agree that people should be given information and then allowed to draw their own conclusions. However, I have also seen that some people can be overwhelmed with info and then freeze. I'd have to agree with someone a page or so back who said that perhaps there ought to be two levels of information: give me all of it and give some other members of the public less info so that you don't scare them out of making the best choice (bf) for fear that they need to be perfect in order to make it happen. It's a hard public health decision but I have a lot more sympathy for the conundrum that PH officials are in than I used to (even though I am technically 'one of them').
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#140 of 219 Old 09-29-2005, 05:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ChristaN
I'd have to agree with someone a page or so back who said that perhaps there ought to be two levels of information: give me all of it and give some other members of the public less info so that you don't scare them out of making the best choice (bf) for fear that they need to be perfect in order to make it happen.
Maybe it's more in the way it's phrased. If it's absolutely no ifs, ands or buts clear that formula is inferior, but something is said that indicates a better diet can be EVEN better, or a viable solution to nursing problems, I don't really see the problem.
I think about myself . . . it sounds like you were pretty healthy when you began your pregnancies. I was NOT, but was unaware that my problems were deficiency related. I ate a whole foods version of what was in the food guide and took vitamins and thought I was doing all the right things. Dd and I both started showing signs of deficiency. Had I not been inclined to really research it, it's very unlikely I would have been able to physically continue nursing. As it was, my ankle was so bad I was getting little sleep and getting to a point where I could barely walk. Had I not been so committed to breastfeeding, I may have just weaned her. And you know, I probably would have felt better after because my own body wouldn't have had to share. Dd might have had the appearance of doing better as well (although I believe it would have been superficial) and had I been someone else, someone who is convinced that formula is an ok choice, who KNOWS what kind of crap info I would be spreading about to other women!
I resent that I didn't find any info on how important nutrition CAN be to a nursing relationship. I resent that I didn't come to the information before dd was 9 months. Or before my health had declined so much. I honestly think that by saying nutrition doesn't matter, we are doing a huge disservice to many women.
I don't know - maybe I'm just too close to the issue to be objective.
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#141 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 12:26 AM
 
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Hey ChristaN! Nice to see you again!

I agree with a lot of what you've said. As I keep saying, no one diet fits all! I know that Sally Fallon has an anti-vegetarian agenda but I don't necessarily agree with everything she writes.

The issue that I am personally trying to argue is the idea promoted by breastfeeding advocates that it doesn't matter what you eat, your milk is just fine. And this is what I personally do not agree with, though like HerthElde I may be too close to the issue to be objective (but I’m really trying!) I totally agree that it is very difficult to know how much info will “scare” someone off. In the interests of trying to get every woman to breastfeed though, are we making it seem like it’s easier than it actually is? I know this does not just strictly apply to nutritional issues, but also troubles with starting the nursing relationship. I had painful, bleeding nipples when I first started and remember feeling those “I am a failure at this” thoughts because everything I’d read about just starting made it seem so simple and pain-free! I eventually figured out that it wasn’t anything that I was doing, my nipples just needed to toughen up.

My secondary reason for being on this thread was trying to clarify some ideas about Dr. Price’s work that seemed to be getting confused with Sally Fallon's opinions. Did you know that Dr. Price was a vegetarian? Though I’m not sure for how long or any more info about that

Nora'sMama, it all happens in the womb. If there is insufficient nutrition for baby to grow optimally, then they will just make do with what they have. Think about how tiny they are when they are forming. If one thing is just slightly off, then it will make a huge impact in the formation and development of the fetus. Hope that makes sense, my time is being cut short!
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#142 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 02:38 PM
 
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I finally got around to reading the current issue of Mothering.... and in it is an article called BURSTING BREASTFEEDING MYTHS:

One of the myths is that diet is unimportant while bf'ing.

It was written by the fabulous Dr. Paul Fleiss.
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#143 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 04:28 PM
 
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Christa,

As I understand it, Dr. Price didn't find one native society who lived only on plant foods and was healthy. I seem to recall that he mentioned the people of East India who were vegetarian which had a number of degenerative diseases and a low life expectancy but I cannot find that info online right now. Some African tribes were mostly vegetarian, but still contained some animal products:
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...of_africa.html

Officially a vegetarian diet can be healthy according to WAPF if it contains animal products such as eggs and dairy. However it requires a strong constitution and optimal ability to assimilate certain key vitamins and minerals. Veganism is strongly warned against for specific reasons.

I am a former vegetarian who is greatly appreciative of Price's research and the findings of the WAPF. I've personally seen enormous results by following their knowledge. It seems overwhelmingly clear to me personally, once I read his research on native populations, why I would not want to follow a vegetarian diet nor feed my children in that manner.

The biggest problems he found were the lack of Vitamin D and Vitamin A. Both of which are only found in animal foods. They are shown in native diets to be consumed at 10x the amount in modern diets ... and these high doses of key fat soluble vitamins, along with what he termed "Activator X" were what prevented degenerative diseases now so common in modern life. He did try very hard to find a society successfully living on veg foods, as he first believed in the health of a vegetarian diet.

Native diets contained a special catalyst called Activator X, aka The Price Factor. A fat soluble nutrient found only in organ meats, fish eggs, and grass fed butterfat that completely controlled cavities and optimized bone building minerals.

Some of the info which he found regarding Vitamin A, D and B12 are summarized in this article:
http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstru...tarianism.html

Other info re: vegan/vegetarian diets
http://www.westonaprice.org/tour/vegtourindex.html

I'm curious as to how you reconcile these differences personally. As you seem to make mention of other debates you've had here, and you are obviously aware of his findings. I'm not trying to start a debate in this thread. I've stayed away from any vegetarian/omnivore debates b/c I truly believe you cannot convince people of what is healthiest for them, you can only try to inform them what you've found that seems to be true for you personally.

I'm curious if you have other information/research you can show me as the WAPF arguments about key vitamins, minerals, fats and their specific functions seem so rock solid to me. I've never read anything so well researched about nutrition in my life, and I've read a great deal since taking a college nutrition course that was hard as hell. Perhaps you can link to your previous posts that you mention as explanation so needn't go into it all again. Thank you!
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#144 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 05:14 PM
 
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Another thing with regards to Sally Fallon and veganism - I can completely understand why someone would be annoyed by the vehemence with which she presents the view that vegans are not healthy. Not unlike my annoyance to the vehemence with which vegan websites discuss why they believe meat is totally unhealthy. One significant difference - Fallon does not attack the moral character of veg*ns. IMO, attacking another's ethics is far more vicious than saying someone's diet isn't optimum.
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#145 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 05:38 PM
 
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Jane,

I honestly don't want to get into the omni vs. vegi debates any further myself, either. I admit that I haven't read much of Dr. Price's work -- only some of what can be found online (not the book). From what I see, I have more of an issue w/ the interpretations (Fallon - whose book I have read) than the original work, although I really should someday find the time. It isn't available anywhere around here that I have seen, so I'd have to order it online. It just isn't relevant for me, so I admit that I am not highly motivated to spend the money. We are healthy, our teeth (mine and kids) are straight and not decaying, and we are not suffering from any ailments.

I simply know what works for me and my family. I have been vegan for coming up on 17 years soon. I have one filling in my mouth (that I got as a child), am healthy, educated, and with no degenerative diseases. My children are doing great as well. My dh's family is extremely sensitive to animal products in a negative way. He was raised by a father who was a butcher and ate a diet pretty much based on whole food animal products from what he relays to me (his parents apparently embarrased him extensively by sending in thick whole grain bread sandwiches and eggs from grandpa's farm when his peers were eating wonder bread). His parents died very young from colon cancer and a heart attack. I can see the difference in my dh himself when he eats animal products. His cholesterol, triglycerides and bp shoot through the roof whenever he eats cheese. A short while on vegan food and they all come down again.

I, like many others here, am going based upon what works for my family. I can see the difference in our health when we are eating vegan food (not that I have too much to compare in my case since I haven't eaten non-vegan food for so long!), but with dh it is very obvious. He is healthier when he doesn't eat animal products. Whenever he goes on a spree of making himself steaks or eating cheese, we wind up in the hospital with him having chest pains, gaining weight, and developing colon polyps (which he & all of his siblings have developed in their 40s).

As far as actual research showing that diets low or lacking in animal products can be healthful, there are some studies that strongly suggest that to me. It is true that there are so few populations that have been historically vegan that it is hard to conduct a longitudinal study of the vegan diet, so most studies compare populations eating more animal products with those eating very little (although not zero). A few that have interesting findings to me include:
the Harvard Nurses study (found that nurses who ate more dairy had higher rates of osteoporosis)
and The China Study

I really believe that the reason that so few populations have been historically vegan is not b/c it is unhealthy but b/c it would have been extremely difficult in many climates to maintain a vegan diet in the past prior to modern society. My mother's family is from Sicily (south Italy) and their native diet is probably as close to vegan as my family gets since it is pretty easy to grow lots of veggies year round there and people were poor enough that they couldn't afford meat and dairy often. They also lived a lot longer before they moved to the US and started eating a bunch of processed foods and soda.

One question that I do have is whether Dr. Price accounted for confounding factors? Did he have any way or knowing if the problems he was seeing were caused by the intro of white bread and sugar rather than the reduction of milk and meat in the diet? The kids that he saw with deformed faces and teeth weren't now eating whole foods vegan diets rather than whole foods omni diets, were they? I took enough research classes in grad school that I admit that I am a little suspect -- although I can't judge w/out reading his research. I just wonder b/c you can't determine if the lack of animal products was the problem if that is not the only change that was taking place in the diets of these people - kwim? It can be a hypothesis, but unless you are comparing apples with apples, you can't have a tested theory.
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#146 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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Christa -- you should read the book, I think you would be fascinated. Earlier in this thread I offered to mail my extra copy to people who are interested in reading it and that each person on the list would mail it to the next. So if you would like to read my copy, PM me.

His book is not about vegan vs omni diets, it's about traditional versus modern, so the key is the introduction of processed foods. But what he finds in common in all of the traditional diets is animal fats, that's why we all focus on animal fats in our diets. His research design is highly fascinating. He has so many different types of case comparisons that support his story. It is a must read for anyone with any interest in nutrition at all.

Amanda

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#147 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 06:10 PM
 
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Quote:
His book is not about vegan vs omni diets, it's about traditional versus modern, so the key is the introduction of processed foods.
That I have no issue with at all. From what you all say, it does sound like his observations support the idea that the introduction of processed foods is not health supporting. There is a lot of research out there that supports that hypothesis as well.

It just seems like a leap (and a leap without substantiation) to go from that to what Sally Fallon and Mary Enig have written in regard to his observations proving that veg*n diets are unhealthy.

Back to the original question, I wonder if the best message to provide women might be just that a healthy diet remains important during bf just like it was important during pregnancy and then to provide further information on what that healthy diet constitutes as seems appropriate based upon the individual woman, her capacities, and her motivation to bf. I can't get with the idea that a healthy diet for lactation requires animal products, though -- sorry. My older dd would have been a super scary genius with the addition of something else if her mental capacity was somehow stunted by my vegan diet during bf and pregnancy :LOL !
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#148 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 07:16 PM
 
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Well, there is the issue that all traditional diets had animal products. The only community he found without had evidence of physical degeneration, but the community was something like 75 years old, not centuries or millenia. And it ate whole foods. So the problem from a research point of view is that there was little variation in the animal fats department of traditional societies. The only variation there was (and it wasn't exactly "traditional") does not speak well for the vegan diet.

I'm with JaneS, HerthElde, and toraji in the end -- the School of Hard Knocks has taught me plenty about the importance of animal in the diet.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#149 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 07:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristaN
Back to the original question, I wonder if the best message to provide women might be just that a healthy diet remains important during bf just like it was important during pregnancy and then to provide further information on what that healthy diet constitutes as seems appropriate based upon the individual woman, her capacities, and her motivation to bf.
ITA.

And while we're at it, how about the fact that nutrition is just important, period.

For the people that don't think that nutrition affects breastmilk, what is your view of the effect of nutrition on your overall health?

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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#150 of 219 Old 09-30-2005, 07:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JaneS
The biggest problems he found were the lack of Vitamin D and Vitamin A. Both of which are only found in animal foods.
And then there is that detail as well. When I was a near vegan, I assumed that supplementing was fine, but I only focused on Bs.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

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