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#91 of 111 Old 03-08-2006, 11:57 PM
 
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Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.

I do agree that women should be educated about fatty acids in their diet and the effect on BM. However I also agree that the "worst" BM is superior to the "best" formula by a long, long shot - trans-fats and all. After all, the study that showed that BM confers a higher IQ was not done on a self-selected category of moms who ate perfect diets. The 'BF' mothers who participated in the study (they were actually pumping for preemies) were presumably eating the Standard American Diet (which has been high in trans-fat for generations...Crisco, anyone?). And yet their milk STILL far outperformed formula. That was a great study because since the milk and formula were being provided via tube or bottle to preemies who were all in the same hospital environment there was no bias towards the non-nutritional aspects of breastfeeding or the possibility of a better home environment in the BF households.

That said, I don't eat trans-fats (or I try as much as possible to avoid them) because it just icks me out to think of DD getting them through my BM. I don't buy everything the Weston Price foundation says about nutrition but I do agree with some things, including the need for nutrient-rich foods (including minerals) and lots of healthy fats. I focus on the fats in my diet since I know that no matter what I eat the protein and carbs in my BM will remain pretty much the same, but the fatty acid profile will depend on my diet.

As for the OP's question. I worry about this too - the whole weaning thing. But I'm committed to nursing until age 2 and then I'll re-evaluate. Between ages 1 and 2 I will probably be doing some weaning things like nightweaning and encouraging solids, asking DD to wait if I need to do something before nursing, etc. I don't think I'm a CLW person all the way, but I want to do as much as I can. I value BF so much and I'm so glad that DD and I worked through our initial difficulties!
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#92 of 111 Old 03-09-2006, 10:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.

I do agree that women should be educated about fatty acids in their diet and the effect on BM. However I also agree that the "worst" BM is superior to the "best" formula by a long, long shot - trans-fats and all. After all, the study that showed that BM confers a higher IQ was not done on a self-selected category of moms who ate perfect diets. The 'BF' mothers who participated in the study (they were actually pumping for preemies) were presumably eating the Standard American Diet (which has been high in trans-fat for generations...Crisco, anyone?). And yet their milk STILL far outperformed formula. That was a great study because since the milk and formula were being provided via tube or bottle to preemies who were all in the same hospital environment there was no bias towards the non-nutritional aspects of breastfeeding or the possibility of a better home environment in the BF households.
Good points.
Also, about the HF corn syrup, corn is one of the most monocultured, highly genetically modified crops out there, and then to get the syrup it goes through all kinds of processing. That's one of the main ingredients in formula, isn't it?
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#93 of 111 Old 03-09-2006, 04:39 PM
 
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Caedmyn,
Wow, my head is spinning. Thanks for the thought provoking thread and for daring to challenge the status quo. While I don't agree with your conclusions I do commend your going off the beaten track in an effort to fully inform yourself. Having said that, sometimes you need to turn around and forge your own path or get back on track, and I think that is the case here. Assuming the Weston Price Foundation studies are empirically valid, I think the logical conclusion is that pregnant and tandem nursing Moms should eat better, not that they should stop nursing prematurely. I think eliminating "bad" fats, increasing healthy fats, and reducing what I call "junky carbs" is a good start and would be consistent with what the Weston Price Foundation would recommend.

For the average American woman the questions of whether or not a Mom in a third world country can produce adequate milk for her baby, or whether an unborn baby or nursling gets the nutrients before Mommy does, are red herrings. The real question is whether or not she is willing --or perhaps able--to eat healthier.

I must say though I am intrigued by one conclusion in particular of the Weston Price Foundation regarding the ability to increase the fat content of human milk. This plays into my own personal bias and my one brief struggle against "conventional breastfeeding wisdom". Most of the widely published information on fat content in human milk (including a Kellymom article) suggests that you can improve the quality of fat through diet but not increase the quantity. If my reading of the Weston Price Foundation literature is accurate it suggests that poor diet decreases fat content (which is obviously bad for babies) and that with better diet the fat content can be increased.

For breastfeeding Moms with any sort of sugar to fat ratio issues such as: Hindmilk / Foremilk imbalance, Oversupply, baby's Secondary Lactose Intolerance, etc., the ability to increase fat content could be critical. I had one or more of these issues and I struggled for weeks and months to maintain the breastfeeding relationship; the colicky behavior was brutal. I was nursing DD1 on one side for up to 4 - 6 hours at a time; which helped a little. I finally found some obscure research "abstracts" suggesting that it was possible to increase fat content. I cut back on the "junky" carbs and increased the healthy fats in my diet and things seemed to improve. Of course I readily acknowledge that since mother's milk evolves as the baby grows anyway (according to "conventional wisdom") the improvement may have been coincidental.

Imagine my surprise when I tried to share my newfound insight (on an entierely different board, not Mothering.com) and was met with resistance, conventional wisdom, and the status quo. It surprised me primarily because there can be no harm in reducing the "junky carbs" and increasing healthy fats. I think the perceived harm, for diehard Lactivists, is that any additional special instructions on diet might deter some women from breastfeeding. Of course, my intention was to inform women who already were breastfeeding and were struggling with a particular issue I was familiar with.

Anywho, I've gone way off topic at this point. I just wanted to let you know that I admire your efforts to go beyond the status quo but I would encourage you to keep going, which may eventually mean circling around. The Weston Price Foundation my be well-intentioned with no obvious bias and some of their conclusions may be valid but that is no reason for the average breastfeedig Mom to cut nursing short. Which begs the question and leads me back to your original main question: how long should you keep going?

With DD1 I went into it having no idea of how long I might want to keep going. I asked every medical professional, LC and fellow LLL member where they thought you got the most "bang for the buck" so to speak. If I had believed I could get 90 percent of the benefit in 3 months I might have stopped there. Unfortunately, it is impossible to quantify. Eventually, like you, I settled on one year. That timeframe was re-inforced once I realized that DD1 was dairy intolerant and that weaning her onto a hypoallergenic formula could be difficult, time consuming, and expensive.

Her first birthday came and went. She is now 18 months old and I am about 26 weeks pregnant and despite a major dip in supply back in November she keeps going and I find myself hoping that when the colostrum kicks in she won't dislike the taste and will keep going. I happen to believe that there are nutritional, immunological, and psychosocial benefits to nursing beyond one year but, again, there is no way to quantify the benefits.

Since DD1 isn't getting much milk the whole diet issue is pretty much moot for me and I consider my dietary needs to be pretty much the same as any other pregnant woman. Having said that I could eat better and thanks to this thought provoking discussion I may be more motivated to do so if I see any signs that DD1 is getting any significant amount of colostrum. In any case, assuming DD1 is still nursing when DD2 arrives in June it will certainly be an issue then.
~Cath
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#94 of 111 Old 03-09-2006, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.
Actually, the fats in formula are from vegetables: To mimic mothers' milkfat, infant formulas are made from a mixture of vegetable fats and oil blends such as palm olein, soy, coconut, and high-oleic sunflower oil. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/dec02/oil1202.htm

I have read the milk fat is sold to ice cream producers, but I don't have a source for that.

So formula could contain trans fats if it was made with hydrogenated oils, right?
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#95 of 111 Old 03-09-2006, 05:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BamBam'sMom
Also, how do you know you won't be able to get pregnant while nusing? I know someone who's cycle returned when her ebf baby was 3 months. That's rare, but I don't think that bf is an effective form of birth control after 6 months, especially not if your baby is starting solids.
DD was exclusively breastfed for one year. I got my period back at 4 months, ugh. At that point she was nursing every hour - hour and a half, even during the night. As an aside, she also got her first 2 teeth at 4 months, but the kid wouldn't touch solids until she was a year.

Tofie ~ mama to DD1, DD2 and Pookie v3 debuting December 2011
Oh my God....women are the COWS of PEOPLE!! --Reese, Malcolm in the Middle
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#96 of 111 Old 03-10-2006, 12:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
Actually HFCS is a carbohydrate source. As far as I know the fat in formula is milk fat, so it would be highly saturated but contain no trans-fats.
Cow's milk contains too much fat and proteins for a baby. So all the milk fat is removed. It is then added back in in the form of a blend of vegatable oils. I cannot locate my source, but I recall reading that HFCS is part of that blend. Here is a great article that describes it better than I can

http://www.todaysparent.com/baby/bre...807_101250_216

Also, in my search to find my original source (I really should keep track better), I was surprised to see a Weston Price article about HFCS come up. It says "Interestingly, although HFCS is used in many products aimed at children, it is not used in baby formula, even though it would probably save the manufactueres a few pennies for each can. Do the formula makers know something they aren't telling us?" http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html

This statement alone is enough to make me question the validity of the site. All you have to do is read the ingredients list on a can of formula to see HFCS as an ingredient. I would be very wary of other information on this site. That is a blatant lie.
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#97 of 111 Old 03-11-2006, 02:19 PM
 
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You need to read many more articles on the Weston Price Nutritional Foundaton site Tanya, to make that claim. There are many contributors to this HUGE site and an incredible amount of peer reviewed research studies referenced for their conclusions. And like any organization, I would encourage any mama, to pick and choose what to believe and what to discard.

http://www.westonaprice.org/sitemap.html

And that article is mostly correct... I can totally see her point b/c the standard formulas that capture 90% of the market do contain Lactose for the carb content, and not High Fructose Corn Syrup. This mimics the lactose in BM, except we all know BM lactose is a specific kind of lactose that allows probiotics to proliferate in digestive tract, and therefore superior.

Here are the ingredients listings (I didn't post vitamins and minerals)

Enfamil Lipil Milk-Based Formula With Iron
Reduced Minerals Whey, Nonfat Milk, Vegetable Oil (Palm Olein, Soy, Coconut and High Oleic Sunflower Oils), Lactose...

Nestle Good Start Supreme DHA & ARA Infant Formula with Iron
Enzymatically Hydrolyzed Reduced Minerals Whey Protein Concentrate (From cow's milk), Vegetable Oils (Palm Olein,Soy, Coconut, High-Oleic Safflower), Lactose...

Bright Beginnings
Lactose, Nonfat Milk, Palm Oil (or Palm Olein), Whey Protein Concentrate, High Oleic Oil (Safflower or Sunflower), Coconut Oil, Soybean Oil

Similac Advance
(u)-D Nonfat Milk, Lactose, High Oleic Safflower Oil, Soy Oil, Coconut Oil, Whey Protein Concentrate...

Nutramigen, Prosobee, Pregestimil, Lactofree, the "hypoallergenic" formulas contain corn syrup.... but those are not as widely used by most FF. Alimentum is maltodextrin from corn and sugar.

In addition, Weston Price Foundation has done an extraordinary amount of work on the dangers of soy formula, including testifying before Congress. They are working to get soy formula banned because of the research they have done. Please don't tar and feather them without more knowledge.

Soy Alert
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html
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#98 of 111 Old 03-12-2006, 12:19 AM
 
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I must admit I didn't read every can of formula before I said that. My niece is not bf, and she stays with us one weekend a month. She was using nutramigen, and I remembered reading the label on it, and reading some other things online about the issue, although I don't recall where. Either way, formula companies DO use HFCS, just not in every formula. Also, some previous posters have also demonstrated grievances with some of the information being either shady or inaccurate. I only said that the info about HFCS on that link was a lie, not the entire site. Also, I said to be wary of other info because of the misinfo many are finding, in addition to what I found. It is very important to read critically, imo.

Some people also found some good info, and that is why I said 'wary' and not 'beware.' I never said that the site was invalid, by any means. Sorry for upsetting anyone as it was not my intention.
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#99 of 111 Old 03-12-2006, 10:14 AM
 
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What is this thread about? Whether a "Weston Price" diet is compatible with bfing? What the components of artificial baby milk are? Whether tandem nursing is safe for the fetus? Whether one yr is long enough to breastfeed?

I'm confused.
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#100 of 111 Old 03-12-2006, 11:22 AM
 
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The OP was trying to decide how long to nurse based on her desire to TTC weighed against how long she feels a baby should nurse (a year, two years, etc)...correct me if I'm wrong, anyone!! In her wonderings, she stated something to the effect of not wanting to nurse during a pregnancy and gave what I would consider, based on my research, misinformation about the health and wellbeing of the unborn child. When asked where she got her information, she cited several websites, including the Weston Price one. I think the debate has been whether or not the information is from a valid source.

Does that help?
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#101 of 111 Old 03-12-2006, 10:49 PM
 
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In regard to the question posed by the original poster, I was this way as well when my Sara was first born. We had so many problems that I just gave myself a goal of 6 weeks, which would put her at her due date. When 6 weeks hit, I told myself I needed to keep going to another 6 weeks. And then I gave myself 6 months and then she didn't eat ANY solids at all(her choice, we offered) until 10 months and then she wouldn't even any meal until 12months. So I said I would stop at a year. She's now 14months and there's really NO way I could imagine not breastfeeding her. She nurses about 5 times a day and 3 times a night at least, combined with 2-3meals a day and a snack or two. She is pretty picky but what she DOES eat, she enjoys thoroughly. I haven't researched the question about who is first in line for nutrition but from personal experience, baby comes first no matter what. I say this because I am battling the weight issues. I cannot keep weight on while nursing to save my life. This is my second bf baby and I'm 5feet 5inches and down to 110lbs. I look good at 130lbs. I recently had surgery that didn't allow me to eat for a week and I lost 10lbs. My milk supply dropped a bit for a few days when i was dehydrated but quickly came back up and my Sara is getting everything she needs. She was a 34week preemie who weighed in at 5lbs 3oz and lost down to 4lbs 10oz. She's 14months old and weighs 21lbs. I've lost 40lbs in the last year and my body still struggles to keep weight on and she's flourishing and gaining weight well and meeting her milestones. I do understand your logic behind your reasoning why mama should come first nutritionally. Nature should provide for mama first and baby second to ensure that mama lives to take care of baby but in my experience, that does not seem to be accurate. I am a planner just like you but I think that we really need to just sit back and evaluate the situation once we reach our goals. I really thought I'd be compeltely done after her first birthday and want nothing to do with nursing. But that goal seemed completley arbitrary when it rolled around and I found myself looking towards 18months of nursing. Who knows? We may make it there and end up saying 2 years sounds like a good round number. I think you should enjoy that year and once you hit that goal, you should sit back and reevaluate and see where things stand. If you want to continue, DO SO! If you don't, start thinking about weaning and getting pregnant. I got AF back at 10months postpartum when Sara started eating solids. We are still nursing quite a bit but I do have AF. So you never know!

Meg

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#102 of 111 Old 03-12-2006, 11:55 PM
 
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Tanya, you didn't upset me one single bit, just trying to clear things up here.

Reading Weston Price's book and the information of the non profit WAPF changed my life and my family's life and my view of how crucial nutrients are as the raw building material of our children's bodies.

For example the thread in "Nutrition and Good Eating" I've been posting to about the crucial nature of vitamin A and its effect on development of birth defects.

One of the reasons for the recommendation to space children 3 years apart is to rebuild the mother's stores of vitamin A. Native people did this as a rule and it's one reason given for ebf to allow for larger spacing of children. Many societies would not allow marriage until both male and female were put on certain period of feeding with high vitamin A foods (natural preformed vitamin A found only in animal foods such as liver).

I'd hate to have anyone dismiss WAPF as a source of important and unique information based on lack of knowledge or hearsay.
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#103 of 111 Old 03-13-2006, 11:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS
I'd hate to have anyone dismiss WAPF as a source of important and unique information based on lack of knowledge or hearsay.
Please don't assume that those who do not agree with Price are relying on "hearsay." It could also be due to doing their own research and coming to their own conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneS


One of the reasons for the recommendation to space children 3 years apart is to rebuild the mother's stores of vitamin A. Native people did this as a rule and it's one reason given for ebf to allow for larger spacing of children. Many societies would not allow marriage until both male and female were put on certain period of feeding with high vitamin A foods (natural preformed vitamin A found only in animal foods such as liver).
Yikes! That's an awfully big generalization/stereotype there. "Native people"? Who? Native to where? "As a rule?" Doubt it.
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#104 of 111 Old 03-13-2006, 04:02 PM
 
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Except I didn't hear research or well referenced arguments.

I have no problem with disagreement with Price or myself. Especially if they happen to be well thought out and researched so I can learn from them too.

The native people studied by Price included Swiss, Gaelic, Eskimos. Melanesians, Polynesians and Pacific Islanders (about a dozen different). Torres Strait Islanders, New Zealand Maori, Australian Aborigines, Peruvian Indians, North American/Canadian Indians (many different tribes), African tribes (15 different tribes). He studied both people totally isolated from modern world (in 1930s) following their native diets as well as modern people of the same ancestry to show that departing from the native diet was responsible for degenerative diseases.
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#105 of 111 Old 03-13-2006, 05:50 PM
 
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True as that is... Isn't or couldn't it also be true that part of the reason for the child spacing was because the women of childbearing age didn't get a period every month? My understanding isn't just that they breastfed for more than 1 year or 2, but because of diet the women didn't menstruate every cycle- thereby decreasing the chances of being fertile or pregnancy.

It's lonely being the only XX in a house of XYs.
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#106 of 111 Old 03-14-2006, 10:43 PM
 
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From G. T. Baden's book, "Among the Ibos of Nigeria":
Quote:
It is not only a matter of disgrace but an actual abomination, for an Ibo woman to bear children at shorter intervals than about three years... The belief prevails strongly that it is necessary for this interval to elapse in order to ensure the mother be able to recuperate her strength completely, and thus be in a thoroughly fit condition to bear another child. Should a second child be born within the prescribed period the theory is held that it must inevitably be weak and sickly, and its chances jeopardized.
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#107 of 111 Old 03-14-2006, 10:50 PM
 
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Fascinating article updating Price's work and tying diet directly to connective tissue disorders (cleft palate, etc). This makes the crucial nature of diet very very real.

Connective Tissue Disorders: The Overlaps and Links to Diet

http://www.ctds.info/connective_disorders1.html
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#108 of 111 Old 03-14-2006, 10:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pynki
True as that is... Isn't or couldn't it also be true that part of the reason for the child spacing was because the women of childbearing age didn't get a period every month? My understanding isn't just that they breastfed for more than 1 year or 2, but because of diet the women didn't menstruate every cycle- thereby decreasing the chances of being fertile or pregnancy.
Australian Aborigines used herbs for contraception to promote child spacing. There are many examples of natives specifically planning it this way for a reason.
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#109 of 111 Old 03-14-2006, 11:04 PM
 
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I think it is too soon to be thinking the way you are. I know that as new moms we tend to want to plan and know and be incharge of everything....but honestly those things really take time and learing.

In a years time, you may be better prepared to know and understand your nursing relationship.

Breastfeeding is no guarentee to birthcontrol, and you may end up with a baby sooner than 2 years if you think it is

Why not wait awhile, and see how you and she like it. She herself may decide that a year is long enough, or you may decide that nursing through pregnancy and tandem nursing is the best for your family kwim?

Sarah )
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#110 of 111 Old 03-22-2006, 09:36 PM
 
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there is so much good info available on this thread--thank you!

to the op--it is such a hard decision, isn't it? it took me five years to have these babies, and i want more babies! my original bf goal was a year-ish (i didn't really know how long you were supposed to bf). but i had a lot of problems initially (having twins takes a lot out of you, and my diet was the traditional lowfat, lots of whole grains that was actually robbing me of nutrition). the problems turned out to be somewhat beneficial in that i've learned a lot. i soon updated my goal to two years (as per WHO), and then decided i wanted to clw. and as our nursing relationship developed and nursing became so much easier, i became more and more convinced i couldn't deny my babies my milk. see how it goes for you, but the longer you go, the better for your baby (as everyone has said). and you might just find you don't want to jeopardize that relationship (since milk can dry up in pregnancy--that was really what changed my mind. my girls'd flip if the milk was gone.)

in regards to the other issues that have come up--i used to have fantasies about nursing a third child while still nursing my twins (now 15 months). it seems easy enough. i'm sure i *could* do it, but given my age and what i've done to myself nutritionally (while by anyone's standards i was eating pretty healthily--tho some sugar and transfats), i think it is too risky. breastmilk is gold, but IT'S NOT MAGIC. in my case, i was following lll guidelines and trying to lose weight very slowly (doing less than what lll said). my girls were not on the charts weightwise. so i stopped dieting for awhile. i let them nurse all the time. i mean ALL THE TIME. they slept on my breasts (still do sometimes, tho this is fading). they were not on the charts weightwise. i talked to lc after lc; they all said the same thing--i was doing everything right; milk was coming out of me; the girls were meeting milestones; everything was fine. i felt something wasn't right, and (to make a long story short) i read nutrition and physical degeneration, found nourishing traditions, and the changes in me and my girls are astounding. i have no doubt it is due to a change in my/our diets. they are the substantial healthy breastfed babes i wanted, now that my body is getting enough nutrients for all of us.

i'm writing just to encourage anyone who's having a reaction to this idea that breastmilk isn't magic...Read nutrition and physical degeneration. i was skeptical through half of the book. then i thought the photos must be faked. (the wap website doesn't impress me visually, which made me doubt the info at first--but after reading n&pd, it makes sense.) and no one has anything to gain moneywise from what this guy is saying. it makes so much sense and it has changed my life significantly. i feel like i've joined a cult in terms of how i feel about food now. i respect it, and i respect the power it has over my body and over my children's bodies, and over the children i will try to wait a sensible amount of time to have (i agree with three years) so that they can be the healthiest babies i can make.

(Sorry i don't have time to edit or be more eloquent--but read the book! Fallon didn't write it, and her experiences shouldn't detract from Price's book.)
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#111 of 111 Old 03-22-2006, 10:54 PM
 
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I skimmed through the responses, but I just wanted to share my story.

I knew I wanted to nurse my son for at least a year. All of the research, everything I read... I knew I wanted to give him that gift and would do ALL that I could to do so.

As he neared a year, he was nowhere near ready to wean. He was eating 1-2 solid meals a day, and nursing 5-7 times a day. I didn't want to force wean him, but had never really thought about nursing a toddler. Plus I really wanted to TTC so our kids could be 2 years apart.

I kept nursing, wound up nightweaning DS at 14 mo, and guess what? At 15 mo my AF returned. He was still nursing 5 times a day at that point (we dropped the two night nursings). The first month I let my cycle just settle in. The second month I charted and we started TTC. The third month... same. The fourth month, I was pg. It took me a year of TTCing the first time around.

I wound up not weaning DS - but that is entirely your choice. He tapered off almost immediately after I got pregnant. He didn't like the change in my milk. He would still nurse, but less and less. When I was 6 wks pg, he cut back to three times a day. At 3 mo, he cut back to 1-2. Then at 4 mo pg, when he was 22 mo, he self-weaned. It wasn't hard to nurse and be pg except for the sensitivity the first few weeks. I also found it helped with m/s. However, I didn't drink enough water to compensate!

GL - I would not worry about weaning until after a year, and you can play it by ear then. You absolutely though can nurse and TTC, and then if you want, encourage weaning when you get pg. I know a lot of mamas who did get pg while nursing an older child.
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