Breastfeeding at any cost??? - Page 15 - Mothering Forums

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Old 07-29-2006, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Party*of*5
Some people seem to have a great deal of difficulty comprehending the written word :
This is the second time (that I've seen) that you've posted something about people obviously not understanding what you are writing. You might consider that it is quite possible to understand what someone is saying and to still vehemently disagree. I think that your stance on personal responsibility is crystal-clear. However, I do not agree with it.

Just so we're clear. I'm sure you will have no trouble understanding the written word.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:01 PM
 
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It's interesting to observe how invested some people are in the possibility that others' experiences may be invalid. In some cases it appears that the opportunity to project negative emotional energy onto others is actually the primary motivation, and the context of "lactivism" is merely opportunistic. It seems unlikely that a person whose general desire is to interact positively and supportively with others would objectively but regretfully conclude that lactivism objectively necessitates shaming etc., and then reluctantly apply herself to shaming others as an unpleasant but necessary task. Rather it appears that persons with a predisposition or desire to shame others construct ad hoc arguments to justify the negative behavior.
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel
It's interesting to observe how invested some people are in the possibility that others' experiences may be invalid. In some cases it appears that the opportunity to project negative emotional energy onto others is actually the primary motivation, and the context of "lactivism" is merely opportunistic. It seems unlikely that a person whose general desire is to interact positively and supportively with others would objectively but regretfully conclude that lactivism objectively necessitates shaming etc., and then reluctantly apply herself to shaming others as an unpleasant but necessary task. Rather it appears that persons with a predisposition or desire to shame others construct ad hoc arguments to justify the negative behavior.

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Old 07-29-2006, 09:32 PM
 
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This topic just makes me want to cry.
Esp since I've been reading so many horror stories at another site, where ff moms are giving their stories at being given bad information, slammed by LLL's, refused help by LC's and questioned on why have children if they will not solely bf for 2 years

We are with the shame and disgracing of ff moms, they just dig in deeper, like when a bf-ing mom's MIL starts to question them, and no good will ever come of it.

But then does anyone who believes it's ok to shame a mother ever ask if it's pumped bm in that bottle???
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Old 07-29-2006, 09:42 PM
 
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I think that only the mother herself can say when enough is enough. Yes there are many moms that quit too soon or never BF at all - that is a result of poor BFing education. For the moms that really do try there may be a point where they really can't do it anymore - and that should be up to them and they shouldn't have to explain themselves.
My DS was supplmented from 6-13 months because I was Pregnant and my milk dried up. He contiued to nurse and I Tandum nursed him untill he self weaned at 18m.
My first DD Nursed till 11 month and self weaned because my milk dried up. I tried for weeks to get her back to the breast but she wouldn't - I cried many nights for that lack of this relationship with her. But there was nothing I could do.
With my Last DD she was born a premie- spent time in NICU and I had to pump for her and bottle feed (sns and fingerfeeding took far too long when chasing 2 toddlers) I had told myself that I would pump and bottle feed for six months if it came to that. Pumping with 2 toddlers terrorizing the house is hard not to mention slightly dangerious at times (as you can't keep 100% eye contact on them). We where lucky that my DD latched at 10 weeks and have been going fine since. But that being said you may call me a bad mother but I would have had no regrets about giving my DD formula at 6m if she didn't nurse by that point. I personally couldn't justify neglecting my older children for the time that it takes to pump feed and wash the stuff everyday. It woudn't have been fair to them or anyone.
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Old 07-29-2006, 10:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel
In some cases it appears that the opportunity to project negative emotional energy onto others is actually the primary motivation, and the context of "lactivism" is merely opportunistic.
Do you honestly think that people latch on to the idea of advocating breastfeeding just because they need an excuse to look down on others?

I am hoping this comment was about an individual or an experince and not a comment about lacivisits, I didn't get the impression it was.

I think it is rare to meet a lactivist who actually shames another, sure it happens, just like it happens that ff'ers have called me a nazi for supporting breastfeeding awareness. As long as you/we can seperate the individuals from a movement or cause i think it is valid to question the negative aspects.


From my personal experince most the conversations i have had involving me as a bf'ing advocate and a ff'er momma.. most the *shaming* has nothing to do with anything i have said or implied. It is more about assumptions. Most the shaming i have seen invloves me being put down for being so judgmental..when again, I haven't said or implied anything about any individual.
In this thread it seems to be more individual's butting heads than anything.
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hawkfeather
i don't think there are any rules about how long a woman *has* to do anything! I believe most bf'ing advocates just wish more would make a true effort to feed breastmilk...pumping and tube feeding and trying to nurse.. it is all hard work and more than an effort.
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Originally Posted by momtoalexsarah
For the moms that really do try there may be a point where they really can't do it anymore - and that should be up to them and they shouldn't have to explain themselves.
Right. But around here there can be a "2 years or bust" attitude, as someone put it way back in this thread. And a lot of talk about a baby's right/entitlement to mother's milk. That's why I asked where the rights of the rest of the family (including the mother?) come in. Basically, I feel that there is sometimes not enough respect for the juggling act of bfing difficulty. And I have seen mothers having to explain themselves as to why they stopped.
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:20 PM
 
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is there really a 2 year rule here?

i have five kids they all nursed until differant ages and i am happy with that.
every woman's personal choices with breastfeeding do not reflect her opinions on other women and what they do. I am not questioning your experince here, I just haven't been made aware of any expectations for how long i will nurse-
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Old 07-29-2006, 11:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hawkfeather
is there really a 2 year rule here?

i have five kids they all nursed until differant ages and i am happy with that.
every woman's personal choices with breastfeeding do not reflect her opinions on other women and what they do. I am not questioning your experince here, I just haven't been made aware of any expectations for how long i will nurse-
I think I mentioned the 2 year rule.

And it is an assumption on my part, coming from reading posts from women who apologize for not nursing (or in some cases pumping) to age two.

Or comments from other women about someone "weaning early", when the baby was nursed for over a year - also on the "Surviving motherhood" thread about how silly and wrong the other parents were for pressuring the mom to wean her 18 month old. Also folks quoting the WHO recommendations.

Basically, it seems to me that there is an implicit assumption that nursing for 2 years should be the universal goal (with 1 year being a bare minimum). And that if you don't nurse your babies for two years, then you gave them less than they deserve or need.

This 2 year mark is WAY different than that promoted in popular culture. Most pro-bfing moms who are not lactivists that I know believe that nursing to one year is a fantastic feat. One mom I know proudly said "And I nursed that boy for 6 whole months! I deserve a medal" - despite not having any real problems nursing. Another mom told me confidentially, "I nursed my last for nearly a YEAR! Can you believe that!" My neighbor shared that her youngest daughter nursed her last "for a really long time, 8 months, I think."

Please note that these are great moms and great women, who care a heck of a lot about their kids. They are well educated, sahms, who feed their kids wholesome food and are pretty aware.

These moms are going to get pretty darned defensive if told that they should have nursed for 2 years because it focuses on what they *didn't* do, vs on what they *did* do. And when people get defensive, they stop listening.

We got a lot of work to do, people, a lot of work to do, if we want to change the world.



Siobhan

You know the attributes for a great adult? Initiative, creativity, intellectual curiosity? They make for a helluva kid...
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Old 07-30-2006, 12:20 AM
 
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I have to put out to the mothers whom belive that you must nurse a child for 2 years to have nursed at all - what about the child that self-weans proir to two years. Both of my older children did - in spite of my best efforts to prevent it. If a child tells you "no nummys I'm a big boy nummys for my sister" then there really is nothing you can do - besides maybe pump and feed it in a cup.
I fully intend to nurse my last DD as long as she wants to - if that is two years or more I will be thrilled. But if it's not and the weaning is by her choice then so be it.
Why I had decided 6 months as a pumping goal was not because I belived that is when she had had the full benifit of my BM - quite the oposite she needs it as long as I can give it to her. But I was not going to sacafice the wellbeing- safety and relationship with my older children just to provide exclusive BM to my youngest.
When you have more then one child you need to find a balance. BFing an only child is one thing - BFing (or pumping for) a baby and chasing 2 toddlers is whole different ball game.
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Old 07-30-2006, 12:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by momtoalexsarah
I have to put out to the mothers whom belive that you must nurse a child for 2 years to have nursed at all - what about the child that self-weans proir to two years. Both of my older children did - in spite of my best efforts to prevent it. If a child tells you "no nummys I'm a big boy nummys for my sister" then there really is nothing you can do - besides maybe pump and feed it in a cup.
I fully intend to nurse my last DD as long as she wants to - if that is two years or more I will be thrilled. But if it's not and the weaning is by her choice then so be it.
Why I had decided 6 months as a pumping goal was not because I belived that is when she had had the full benifit of my BM - quite the oposite she needs it as long as I can give it to her. But I was not going to sacafice the wellbeing- safety and relationship with my older children just to provide exclusive BM to my youngest.
When you have more then one child you need to find a balance. BFing an only child is one thing - BFing (or pumping for) a baby and chasing 2 toddlers is whole different ball game.
I can't speak for other but to me the 2 yr thing means nursing at least 2 yrs or until my child weans themselves. So many moms wean the child before two yrs and I think the goal is to let the child decide when enough is enough and not society.
Wether the child weans at a yr or 5 yrs.

Sharon wife to my hero James and  momma to Kaitlyn 17, Tayler 15 and Anna 7.fur momma to Kami  pit/boxer mix.

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Old 07-30-2006, 02:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
This is the second time (that I've seen) that you've posted something about people obviously not understanding what you are writing. You might consider that it is quite possible to understand what someone is saying and to still vehemently disagree. I think that your stance on personal responsibility is crystal-clear. However, I do not agree with it.

Just so we're clear. I'm sure you will have no trouble understanding the written word.
:

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Old 07-30-2006, 02:53 AM
 
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I don't know if anyone can put anything out there 'to' the mommas who say you should nurse until two. i am pretty sure it is a generalization.

It seems to have gone from shaming for not nursing to shaming for not nursing until two? Comments in passing about the WHO recomendations, or citing a thread about weaning an 18 months old might start to paint an ideal that 'lactivists' think we should nurse until two, but i don't think anyone can defend or argue against generalizations that haven't really been stated.

It seems like a lot of the points and issues that 'shame' anyone here haven't even been said half the time.. more than half. There are exremists, on both ends..and maybe the tone here is one that supports child led weaning- or nursing until two but that still says nothing about judgment or shaming.
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Nora'sMama
This is the second time (that I've seen) that you've posted something about people obviously not understanding what you are writing. You might consider that it is quite possible to understand what someone is saying and to still vehemently disagree. I think that your stance on personal responsibility is crystal-clear. However, I do not agree with it.

Just so we're clear. I'm sure you will have no trouble understanding the written word.
I have no problem with disagreement. I will not tolerate misquoting, putting words in my mouth, or making outrageous leaps from a generalization I've made. All of which seem to be running rampant in this thread.
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Party*of*5
I have no problem with disagreement. I will not tolerate misquoting, putting words in my mouth, or making outrageous leaps from a generalization I've made. All of which seem to be running rampant in this thread.
OK, please quote. I hope that I haven't done any of the above and if you can show me where I have, I will humbly apologize.
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Old 07-30-2006, 07:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Party*of*5
I'm absolutely not a Lactivist! I understand that women are people, but mothers are people with obligations and responsiblities. Finding excuses to dismiss those is what I object to. It's not all about you (general) anymore. When you (general) decide to have children, you don't give up being a seperate person, but nor is your life about what *you* want, what *you* feel. Women are so wrapped up in themselves, and they seem to be able to ferret out any excuse to remain that way. That's what I'm tired of. That's what I'm against.
I guess I am not a lactivist as well because like Party of 5 I also think sometimes we are so quick as a society of women to excuse our bad parenting decisions. Always something or someone to blame other than ourselves and always another group of women to pat them on the back and say it's okay--don't worry about it, you did the best you could--hmph.

Barbara:  an always learning SAHM of Ilana (11) and Aiden (8) living in Belgium with my amazing husband.

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Old 07-30-2006, 09:01 AM
 
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I guess I am not a lactivist as well because like Party of 5 I also think sometimes we are so quick as a society of women to excuse our bad parenting decisions. Always something or someone to blame other than ourselves and always another group of women to pat them on the back and say it's okay--don't worry about it, you did the best you could--hmph.
Is that such a bad thing? Men have always had THAT.

I just think that there are better ways to increase the BFing rate that don't involve shaming or tsk-tsking women who often really just don't have a lot of choices about their lives.

When I see harried checkers at Sam's with pics of their babies taped to their checkstands, I realize that it's not helpful for me, a middle-class married SAHM with a fairly financially comfortable life, to condemn them for not breastfeeding. Do they have clean, private places to pump? Lactation consultants? Refrigerators to store milk?

Does Sam's Club offer decent maternity leaves? Do the daycare providers know how to handle EBM?

Have I ever experienced the difficulty of longterm pumping, firsthand?

Or, to think of it another way, don't a lot of European countries have near-universal BF rates-- the result of governmental policies and social attitudes that encourage breastfeeding and paint it positively?

I'd say it's obvious that widespread societal influences that positively promote BF do a lot more than a bunch of moms kvetching on a message board about the evils of formula-feeding moms... particularly when we're in an easier position to BF, through marriage to "richer" men.

Who am I kidding, after all? If I had to work 12 hours a day at a crap job with no privacy, would I have really lasted this long in the BF department?

Hells no.
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Old 07-30-2006, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bluebottle
i don't think it's the majority by any means, but yes, a small but very vocal minority latch on to the idea of aggressively advocating for what they believe in, because they like to feel superior to others.
Yes. And I think there is an unfortunate trend among women to judge, criticize, berate, shame, and generally deflate each other.

A convenient tool of the patriarchy.

I see this trend in "mommy wars" of all kinds. And I feel like I lose interest in advocating for particular parenting techniques, no matter how much I honour and believe in them, when it turns into this.
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eightyferrettoes
Is that such a bad thing? Men have always had THAT.
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Originally Posted by thismama
A convenient tool of the patriarchy.
Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276

I've pumped more than a half ounce of blood, straight blood, out of my left breast on several occasions, had five bouts of mastitis, open sores on the areola, plugged ducts, blisters. I've sat hunched over a pump in hospitals, cars, at 3 am in my living room crying my eyes out from exhaustion and self pity and frustration wanting to quit more than I ever wanted to quit anything, ever..
Me too...........

I havent read all the posts yet, but here's how it was for us.

nursed dd on demand, at night, wherever all the time, until she self weaned due to my pregnancy. Just decided she was done. other than sore nipples at first, and mastitis often(due to a cyst on my right ribcage), and severe biting, we never had issues. Just nursed.

Along comes baby 2...and wow. I had no idea nursing could be so hard....

He was ok at first, then he began to decline developmentally and physically. He couldnt do anything. He was allergic to something in the milk. I did the elim diet. I did hte reverse elim diet. I ate almost nothing but rice and pears. Still he cried. STill he didnt grow.

Then one day I saw a picture of him....I had taken a naked butt pic of him after a bath...he was about 5.5 months old at the time. And what I saw horrified me./...........

you know those pics you see on TV of malnourished babies in third world countries?? Ribs sticking out?? hips sticking out??head huge on a tiny body??

That was my son.

At 6 months old, he was barely barely 4 lbs heavier than his birth weight. And losing fast.

I had LC's. I had herbs. I had every darn LLL leader I could get my hand on. And nothing was working. I had plenty of milk!! It was something *IN"* the milk.

After seeing that picture, I had a breakdown. I started supplementing him. After a while of trial and error, we found the perfect certain brand of formula, in a certain form. That's it.

And he began to grow. And develop. My 7 month old was like a newborn...all he could do was raise his head up ..he couldnt roll. couldnt do anythinmg.

Then we started letting him have one or two bottles a day...and tthe difference was amazing. He began to GROW!!~ ANd fill out..after two weeks on the right formula, he rolled!!

And two weeks later, he sat up....and on and on.

I tried very hard to continue nursing him.....and I always wanted him to nurse a long time...but it just didnt happen for us.

to this day he has severe allergies..he can only tolerate about 5 foods, and his formula is one of those 5. He is 13 months old..

At 9 months my mlk was gone...and it was heartbreaking. to have a baby that isnt nursing is the most absurd thing ever...

and yes..I am mortified at playgroup, at LLL , when I have to pull a bottle out and feed him. But sometimes I have no choice.

And There came a point that I had to say .." You know what?/ I cant martyr my baby **JUST** for the sake of Exclusive breastfeeding. " If I had, I cannot imagine how sick he would be right now.

some folks refuse to give a drop of formula ever. I couldnt do that...I had to do what was best for him. It was so hard..and I still miss nursing....

hopefully we wont have this problem with the next baby..
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Old 07-30-2006, 01:59 PM
 
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But there are some.

I wonder what would have happened if my situation hadn't improved (or if it regresses). What if I was so physically compromised, exhausted, frustrated, and depressed that I was neglecting my baby...leaving her to cry alone in a room for hours b/c I literally couldn't cope with taking care of her? (This is not so far-fetched--there actually were times where I had to set down a crying baby and walk away for a minute, b/c I was too wracked with sobs to even hold her; there were also some times when I felt "numb" to her and didn't respond as soon as I should have.). I don't think that nursing in and of itself causes depression, but in my case the two were very closely linked--because extreme physical pain DOES contribute to depression, as do extreme frustration, isolation, and feelings of inadequacy, all of which, in my case, were related to nursing. Should we risk compromising a baby's health--mental and/or physical--in other ways, just so long as he has breastmilk?

I feel deeply and passionately about bfing. That's why I'm sticking it out through so much difficulty and pain. But it's frankly shocking to me that we at MDC can't admit that there are SOME limits to what a person can endure, and that those limits vary from person to person.
Exactly. I agree that there are rare cases of women who truly cannot breastfeed, due to surgery, etc. And then there are the others....if you are mentally unstable, and pain and stress are makingit worse..it would be better for a baby to have a warm bottle of formula from a loving pair of arms , than a mom who is about to lose it trying to hold her and nurse her.

I had severe ppd after dd, and wow...it was ro ugh..
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spughy
If she can't face herself after she feeds her baby formula (exclusively, I mean - any bm is better than none at all) then she will keep breastfeeding no matter what. This is why I think society needs to demonize formula a LOT more and make using it a shameful thing. (Within reason - it has medical applications that should not be ignored. But it should be treated as a drug, not a food.)
I happily face myself every day.

And for us, formula IS almost like a drug, and not a food. Without it, he would probably die. It supplies 80 % or more of his nutrition in a day...
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by may05mommy

I don't judge formula-feeding mothers, not most of them anyway. I judge the formula companies for throwing samples at pregnant women and new mothers "just in case" . I judge doctors who are quick to push formula, and a society that tries to relegate nursing mothers to dirty restrooms while allowing formula-feeding mothers to feed their children out in the open. I judge the so-called parenting "experts" in the mainstream who push babies to sleep through the night years before they're ready, acting as if a baby sleeping through the night at age, oh, three weeks is a sign of good parenting. .
Beautifully said...:
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by boingo82
We need to find a balance between:

Keep at it, it will get better, do not give up!

and

I don't care if your nipples are FALLING OFF. You WILL breastfeed or you are a BAD MOTHER who is denying your child their BIRTHRIGHT because you're SELFISH.
I love this
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:17 PM
 
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I certainly don't think we should shame women or demonize formula. We DO need a cultural shift where women aren't taught by culture that bfing is "gross". Look at the ridiculous outcry of that baby magazine with the breastfeeding baby on the cover. The most insane part about that was how the news reported it. "Over a quarter of the people who responded were upset with the cover!!!" oh no! How about "Three quarters of the respondents had a postive reaction to the cover." More women would naturally choose to breastfeed if our culture was different.

However, on the other side, I certainly don't think its helpful to insinuate that bfing "causes" depression. That's just one more myth that lactivism has to fight. One more excuse for the cultural negativity against breastfeeding. One more thing that the formula companies can insinuate in their ads.

Either side spouting untruths are hurtful to the issue of breastfeeding. It's hurtful to breastfeeding as a whole when forumla feeding mom's perpetuate myths about breastfeeding. It isn't helpful to let these myths stand. It isn't about attacking the women, its about attacking the myths and untruths our culture perpetuates about breastfeeding.

Bottom line: Other countries DO have higher breastfeeding initialization and continuation rates. Let's emulate that. Why reinvent the wheel if we already have examples of success?
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:18 PM
 
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Then one day I saw a picture of him....I had taken a naked butt pic of him after a bath...he was about 5.5 months old at the time. And what I saw horrified me./...........

you know those pics you see on TV of malnourished babies in third world countries?? Ribs sticking out?? hips sticking out??head huge on a tiny body??

That was my son.

At 6 months old, he was barely barely 4 lbs heavier than his birth weight. And losing fast.

I had LC's. I had herbs. I had every darn LLL leader I could get my hand on. And nothing was working. I had plenty of milk!! It was something *IN"* the milk.
OMG this is almost word for word what happend to my best friend with her 3rd baby! She finally ended up giving her some kind of goat milk formula? I forget exactly what it was. I think they determined that because she had low thyroid her milk was lacking something. This time she had to take dom peridone (sp?) the whole time and was able to nurse almost a full year.
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:24 PM
 
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He stayed on my breasts almost 24 hours. And 2 or 3 weeks later when I took him to the pediatrician, he was malnurished and dehydrated.

Nobody should ever be made to feel guilty for having to use formula. Do I judge the mothers that ff from birth? Yeah. But to tell a woman that she didn't try hard enough, or that her reasons for stopping breastfeeding aren't justified is terrible.

I'd heard this "most of women who stop was because of misinformation" crap. And if that hadn't been so drilled into my head that it's possible for almost everyone, then maybe we wouldn't have gone through the terrible time we went through with my son already being early, low birth weight, and then malnutritioned because of my stupid pride.
absolutely..same here. malnourished and dehydrated...ugh.
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Old 07-30-2006, 02:31 PM
 
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... And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion
Speaking of twisting words, that is NOT EVEN what I said. You asked where the men were, and I said that they *usually* don't post on forums/parenting sites, let alone ones called "mothering". My DH spends all of his internet time playing World Of Warcraft. Believe me, I have TRIED to get him to post here.
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:42 PM
 
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Why are some groups of women so afraid of men and anything masculine? Why is anything remotely masculine automatically oppressive and wrong? Women are the gender who's so much better at so completely tearing their peers down. It's women who can't handle competition. Men love it, and welcome it, and why is that bad? But women are the truely scary half of society. And btw, as someone who was adamantly discouraged from bringing fathers into this conversation, I have to ask why some are now male bashing at all? Apparently men have no place in a breastfeeding discussion
You know, all along I have been wondering why Partyof5's posts are so belligerent and intolerant. Now I know why: she's just plain hostile to women. I'm not sure why she's posting here, but I am sure that a woman who hates women has nothing to teach me about breastfeeding. If I'm interested in having misogyny be an important part of my day, I'm sure I can find a talk radio station that fits the bill. Meanwhile, though, I'm on Mothering. Now how's that ignore function work again?
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Old 07-30-2006, 03:50 PM
 
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I totally agree that in theory a child has the right to breastmilk. I also believe that a child has a right to a mother who can take care of and nurture him or her. If you have to choose between one or the other, choose the latter.
Thank you Amma...
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