IS Breastfeeding "Easier" than FF? - Page 9 - Mothering Forums

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#241 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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They all link to different web sites, the path just goes through another web site.
(colic help)

They are still working fine for me, every time I click on them it pulls the pages up.

anyone else having probs?
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#242 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:10 PM
 
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Is it a site you have to be registered at?
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#243 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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no...it should just take you right to the page.
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#244 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
They all link to different web sites, the path just goes through another web site.
(colic help)

They are still working fine for me, every time I click on them it pulls the pages up.

anyone else having probs?
They do not work for me either. I get the same error message as the previous poster received.

Perhaps if you just posted the links to the resulting web page rather than colichelp, we could get there.

Thanks!

Tofie ~ mama to DD1, DD2 and Pookie v3 debuting December 2011
Oh my God....women are the COWS of PEOPLE!! --Reese, Malcolm in the Middle
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#245 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:20 PM
 
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Alrighty then. It doesn't.

It's ridiculous to try to prove that goats milk is better or worse than formula. Both are substandard and neither a cow or goats milk are intended or appropriate for a human child. I'm sorry to say, I don't believe for a second that any child should have goats milk rather than human. And healthy- except that whole failure to thrive thing doesn't do much for that argument.
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#246 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
I would like to know what other research you have done. This is something that I have spent 4 years researching, and talking to health care providers as well as other people whose children thrived on Goats milk Formula.


If Goats Milk is bad for babies then why are there formulas made with Goats Milk?

Because it is EASIER To digest (for a lot of babies) than Soy or Cows milk, and it is more similar to human breast milk.

Here is info regarding Goats Milk formula, including advice from Dr Sears saying that this is a really good alternative if you have to switch to formula

http://www.colichelp.com/cgi/frameit.../3/T032400.asp

http://www.colichelp.com/cgi/frameit...page.cfm?id=26

http://www.colichelp.com/cgi/frameit...net/page3.html


And I could provide lots more, but that really isn't the point of this thread.
For those that get an error when using these links, here are the actual pages that those links were supposed to link to:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/3/T032400.asp

http://www.dgc.co.nz/page.cfm?id=26

http://www.babyinfo.net/page3.html

The Dr. Sears link may take you to a sign up page for his newsletter, but you can just say "skip this" if you want.

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#247 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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They're redirected through colichelp. Copy the link, knock off the beginning part where it tries to send you through colichelp and then refer you to the other links, and you can see them.
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#248 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Jörð View Post
I'm sorry to say, I don't believe for a second that any child should have goats milk rather than human. And healthy- except that whole failure to thrive thing doesn't do much for that argument.
Huh???

When did I EVER say that goats milk was better than human??!!! Or that babies should have that instead?

I think you are mis-interpreting me.

And my son got FTT while I was Exclusively Bfing, not while he was on the Goats Milk. That is why we switched!!! He always did fine on Goats Milk.

And yes, he is VERY healthy. Although I am sure that BFing exclusively for the first 5 months of his life had a lot to do with that. I often wonder if things would be different if I never would have been able to BF.


Trying to figure out the links...
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#249 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:29 PM
 
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Trying to figure out the links...
I've fixed them in post # 246. You could just edit your original post to match.

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#250 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Here are the direct links to websites that explain the benefits of goats milk vs cow or soy milk formulas.

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/3/T032400.asp

http://www.dgc.co.nz/page.cfm?id=26

www.babyinfo.net/page3.html
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#251 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Techno Granola...I think we cross posted.
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#252 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
Thanks Techno Granola...I think we cross posted.
Your welcome! My family is sleeping right now, so I had extra time to fiddle!

Tofie ~ mama to DD1, DD2 and Pookie v3 debuting December 2011
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#253 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie View Post
Well, not everyone has a phone.

Not everyone has a car.

Not everyone feels comfortable talking to a group of strangers (or even one stranger) about her breasts.
I know that this person didn't say this, but how can we have people talking about the same thing with one person saying that not everyone has a phone, while other people are implying that everyone hes a dishwasher. : this whole thread is really confusing. People need to realize that babies are different and that plays a huge part in how easy breastfeeding and formula feeding are. Like people are using the argument that their baby didn't mind unwarmed milk, so they didn't have to do that, or they have a dishwasher so they didn't have to sterilize bottles, or they don't cosleep so they would have to get up to feed anyway. It would obviously be a lot different for people with babies that will only drink a warm bottle (that was my son), didn't have a dishwasher, or did cosleep. What is easy for one person my be difficult for another.

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#254 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 02:12 PM
 
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Dubfam-

I feel that your posts on this thread reflect a lot of things about how you view breastfeeding. I don't doubt that you think breastfeeding is a good idea for some. Most of us at MDC think it's best for all, whenever humanly possible. You're asking people to "admit" something that most of us feel is untrue. Why you need people to admit something like this tells me that you are seeking validation for your choices. While I can certainly sympathize, I can't give you what you're asking for so I am going to bow out of this thread now.
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#255 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Just for the record ....in case anyone is confused...



I think breastfeeding is the Best and Most Normal thing for every single baby. Every single baby.

I DO NOT think that Formula Feeding is a good choice if you are able to successfully Breastfeed.

I believe that Formula is Terribly Overused in the United States, and it is causing many problems for our society.




Thanks...
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#256 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 02:33 PM
 
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As you have ascertained dubfam, it probably was something YOU were eating that the goat wasn't that was causing your son pain.

I have a son who was VERY sensitive to dairy protiens when he was a baby. Arched back, projectile vomiting, constipation followed by blow out diapers, and at least 6 hours of crying a day with at least 3 of them being consequetive.

He was very small and weighted less than 18 lbs at 1 year, although he did double his birthweight, but just barely.

If I had switched to soy or goat formula instead of finding his allergy I am sure I too would say he digested it better. That it was "easier", that while breast is "best", it wasn't "best" for my baby or family.

I would have still been wrong.

It's lonely being the only XX in a house of XYs.
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#257 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 02:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Jörð View Post
Dubfam-

I feel that your posts on this thread reflect a lot of things about how you view breastfeeding. I don't doubt that you think breastfeeding is a good idea for some. Most of us at MDC think it's best for all, whenever humanly possible. You're asking people to "admit" something that most of us feel is untrue. Why you need people to admit something like this tells me that you are seeking validation for your choices. While I can certainly sympathize, I can't give you what you're asking for so I am going to bow out of this thread now.
Wow, talk about totally missing the point.
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#258 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 02:41 PM
 
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... But, when women say they have no support or no info about bfing, how can this really be in this day and age? We are pg for 9 mos. Don't all women take this time to read about pregnancy, birth, and taking care of baby? Is it possible in this day and age for a woman to not hear of LLL? ...
Yum, yeah, we have no LLL leader here and I had not heard of it, nor did I know it was a meeting sort of organization. And when I had my first interent was not around as plentiful as it is today. I was home alone in a new town w a baby who was not nursing. I knew no one, family was in another country. I had no car, no public transportation, no help all day, at night me dh was distant and frustrated with my PPD. There was a lot I didn't know. I didn't know I could go back to the hospital for assistance until years later, however after the c/s I was in bed and really unable to do anything for myself or my baby for 2 to 3 weeks, then the PPD set in and I was in a very dark place for a very long time, I existed. My dh found me in the kitchen w a knife one afternoon as he came in the door from work, he freaked out, I don't remember it much.
My mum helped as best she could, but she said she never had enough bm and supplemented. She went out and bought bottles and formula. I had 1 that I used for my cat!!! I was planning on bfing.
I started my pregnancy out in a military hospital. There really is no guidance. I bought birthing books "gentle birth choices" "natural child birth the bradley method" of course I ended up w a c/s. I had a bfing book, but it didn't address our problem. I tried everything I could read and understand, naked nursing, repeat latching, pumping (only I purchased a single not knowing I needed double for supply problems), the list goes on. IT was a very difficult time for me.
Maybe I'm the exception, but I gather there are others who found themselves in my place.
With my 2nd child, I saw an LC in private practice before the c/s. I drove 45 miles to LLL meetings. I still had no local friends. I found MDC after the 2nd was well over 6 mo old. We did nurse until he self weaned at 14 mo old, I was unknowingly pregnant w #3. And wouldn't you know it MDC made me a hber!!! We still do not have LLL here, 1 town over there are meetings. But frankly after you've been to 4 that's it other than to socialize.
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#259 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 03:26 PM
 
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I think the OP has really gone about the whole thing wrong (sorry, OP!) because it's coming off as formula support but if I'm correct in what I've been reading, she's trying to say that her issue is with the whole "breastfeeding is easy, natural (interpretation - every woman and baby gets it right away)" when in reality it may not be for every woman and baby. Things can be really difficult for some women and that's why a good percentage of women are convinced they had a problem, because it wasn't easy. She said it kind of funny and I thought she was suggesting we should accept "it wasn't easy" as a valid formula feeding excuse but now that I read her posts again, I'm sure that's not what she was implying. She's making a correlation between overusing formula and lack of breastfeeding support by not being told of the difficulties. Women are told breastfeeding is easy/easier and formula feeding is more time consuming/harder and in the beginning, that's quite often not true.

OP, I'll try to dig it up but there is a poll in lactivism asking whether or not the women who answered had difficulty breastfeeding. I think you do have good points that are getting lost in the turn of conversation. It's important for women to know possible issues and give them the information they need to overcome those issues, ideas that DON'T include formula.

ETA: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=easy

Here's the poll. 626 votes and 49% said yes, it was easy.
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#260 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 03:30 PM
 
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I think the OP raises a good topic. How can yo be a better lactivist, essentially. She believes that by being truthful about the possible difficulties wrt BF, you can convince more moms to stick it out.


Dissmissing the very real problems new mothers face, in this culture, is negligent advocacy. Most of us haven't grown up watching female relatives nurse or live in a BF friendly environment. Some women don't have helpful partners (who probably won't be that helpfull w/ bottles, either) to support them in the learning curve. The least you can do is be honest that BFing can take some effort and sometimes pain, but it's worth it.
: I tend to stay out of these dicussions these days because truthfully I feel let down by the lactivist community.

I ff'd my eldest who is almost 16, just didn't know any better. So when I got pregnant with dd who is 26 mos, I did my research and figured I'd try nursing, well to some degree I guess you would say I am a success story since dd is still nursing at 26 mos. There was an initial issue with her latch but my LC helped so why do I feel letdown.

I feel like most lactivist only talk about the good stuff, when someone has an issue I feel like no one is honest. For me the lack of sleep over the past 26 months has been an issue. The reason I don't sleep is because dd nurses tons at night and co-sleeping has never really helped, I am not one who can sleep through the babe being latched on. It was so bad that earlier this year dh tried taking over nights (we were hoping to nightwean but it didn't happen) and what has resulted is that dd sleeps with him now but brings her to me to nurse which on a bad night can be every 2 hours even at 2yo or a really good night is 1-2x. So I get a little more sleep but having years of fractured sleep is messing with my overall health.

I will be honest and say there are times I wish we had never BF because at least dh could have been an equal nighttime parent. With my eldest, because he was FF'd nighttime parenting duties could be shared.

Right now I have a child well past the age I thought I would have BF and no idea when its going to end yet I know at places like MDC and with many lactivist I won't be heard.

I suppose the bright side is that aside from the sleep deprivation I do enjoy nursing and its been a great experience. So I guess for me I see both sides.

Shay

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#261 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 03:36 PM
 
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The thing that I find really strange about this conversation is that it is so contrary to my experience. In my world, most women are told over and over again that breastfeeding is hard, many women can't make enough milk, if you hit a road block switch to formula--it's easier. Most of the women in my LLL group say that the #1 surprise with breastfeeding was that it was easy and they'd heard so many horror stories.
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#262 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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[QUOTE=dubfam;9310169]Here are the direct links to websites that explain the benefits of goats milk vs cow or soy milk formulas. [QUOTE]

I was pretty eager to click these, as someone who FF their first and will likely FF my second, at least partially due to adoption. However, they left me far from convinced.

Of those sites, one is from a company that makes goat's milk formula -- just like I don't trust Enfamil or Nestle to tell me what's best for my child, I don't trust this site. Another appears to be one mom's opinion, and isn't backed up by any kind of statistics or research. The third is Doctor Sears, who I respect a great deal. Here's what he says (emphasis mine)


"In theory, goat's milk is less allergenic and more easily digestible than cow's milk, but it should not be used as a substitute for infant formula. Like cow's milk, it can cause intestinal irritation and anemia. If your baby under one year of age is allergic to cow's milk-based formulas, try either a soy-based formula or a hypoallergenic formula. If your baby can't tolerate either soy or hypoallergenic formulas, in consultation with your doctor and/or a pediatric nutritionist click here for the recipe for goat's milk formula. "

To me this is not a rousing endorsement of goat's milk formula, although if Dubfam had observed that HER child reacted to soy and milk and breastmilk it might have been the best option, for HER child.

One challenge I find as a lactivist is how to make it clear that I support formula in some situations (like my child's) while rejecting it in most situations. Simply speaking, I'm opposed to babies drinking ANYTHING but breastmilk (except maybe a little water in the last few months?) -- it's what they're designed to drink, but if a baby NEEDS to drink something other than breastmilk (because of adoption or medical issues) then formula is the best choice. To me the issue with feeding my baby formula isn't where it came from, it's where it didn't come from -- e.g. it's not human milk. When we concentrate on "formula's bad because it comes from cows" or "formula's bad because it has HFCS" we're encouraging people to think "X doesn't come from cows, and it doesn't contain HFCS so maybe it's OK". If we concentrate on "formula's not the right choice because it isn't breastmilk, and breastmilk is the ONLY thing babies should be drinking" then it's clear that goat's milk, soy milk, liver formula, etc . . . are also not the right choice.
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#263 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"In theory, goat's milk is less allergenic and more easily digestible than cow's milk, but it should not be used as a substitute for infant formula. Like cow's milk, it can cause intestinal irritation and anemia. If your baby under one year of age is allergic to cow's milk-based formulas, try either a soy-based formula or a hypoallergenic formula. If your baby can't tolerate either soy or hypoallergenic formulas, in consultation with your doctor and/or a pediatric nutritionist click here for the recipe for goat's milk formula. "
The part of the text that you are quoting fell under the section that was dealing with babes who are allergic to Cows milk. As I understand it he is saying in those circumstances that it isn't okay or a good idea to use goats milk formula. He says in other parts that it is good, and there is a link to a goats milk formula recipe that I don't think would be there if he didn't think this was a suitable formula.
It is confusing the way it was worded.
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#264 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 08:59 PM
 
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The way I'm reading it is:

If you child can't be breastfed

AND he/she's allergic to milk

AND you've tried soy and hypoallergenic formula and they didn't work.

THEN try homemade goat's milk formula -- here's the recipe.
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#265 of 420 Old 09-30-2007, 11:00 PM
 
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It would be so helpful if you would use some punctuation. I had a really hard time trying to decipher your post but I wouldn't want to discount what you have to say because it's hard to read.
sorry i was in a rush when i posted it but i wanted to say what i had to say............................................... ....
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#266 of 420 Old 10-01-2007, 12:05 AM
 
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Dubfam, you keep changing your terms. Are you claiming goats milk is good for babies, or goat's milk FORMULA is good for babies?

Quote:
If Goats Milk is bad for babies then why are there formulas made with Goats Milk?
For exactly the same reason there are formulas made from cow's milk, because cow's milk is bad for babies.

The Dr sears link you provided has two sections, the first on goats milk for adults and children, the second for BABIES. The PP quoted the entire section on goat's milk for babies under one year. he very very clearly states that straight goats milk is very bad for babies, and if you can't give them human milk, you need to give a formula, be it goat or cow's milk based, it needs to be a FORMULA, ie, modified to be less drastically different from human milk.

Quote:
I was Using Fresh Goats milk that was supplemented with flax seed oil and vitamins.
So, you weren't increasing the calorie load, or decreasing the protein at all. That is NOT GOOD FOR HUMAN BABIES.

You'd need to dilute the goat's milk, then add back calories as some sort of sugar or fat, and add in vitamins too. Not that different from a commercial formula. Both VERY different from breastmilk.
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#267 of 420 Old 10-01-2007, 01:50 AM
 
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I know the conversations has evolved from the first post, but I just wanted to respond to that. My formula feeding experience is confined mainly to my nieces and nephews, so I don't really know how it would be to formula feed with my own child. I started at around age 12 bottlefeeding nieces at various times, and pretty much continued off and on until I my last nephew was born when I was 28. I always found it to be a pita, and it's one of the reasons I wanted to breastfeed. I often would prop the bottle, especially if I was tired or had to take care of their older siblings. I couldn't wait until they could hold the bottle on their own.

The fact that other people could feed a bottle to the baby meant it was often a job getting pawned off on someone else, often me, so maybe that is part of my problem with it. When my friend's came to visit, they thought it was fun, but I hated it. And I didn't even have to pay for the formula (although I did taste it a few times when I was testing the temperature and thought it would be easier to lick it off my wrist--shudder). I was told to feed my first daughter formula in the hospital, and that was a pain too. Now I will admit I felt like breastfeeding was difficult, sometimes wishing I had 3 arms, and trying every single chair and cushion in the house to find the one that gave me best positioning. But when I tried to give her the formula, she was constantly trying to push the bottle nipple out, and a lot of the formula ran out down her face and into her neck. Later on when I tried to feed her ebm in a bottle, she wouldn't take it, would push it out, turn her head, whatever, and bottlefeeding just didn't work at all.

I remember the formula dripping down thing happening all the time with my various nieces, and always having to have a burp cloth, the careful burping I had to do, the kids spitting up a fair amount of the time when I did it. I know a lot of breastfed babies will spit up a lot, but neither of mine did, and I never really worried that much about burping either. I don't know if that's a breast v. bottle issue, however.

Breastfeeding definitely became easier over time. Of course, so did bottlefeeding because eventually they could hold their own bottles, and we didn't have to buy formula for that long--they were usually switched to cow's milk by around 10 months or so.
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#268 of 420 Old 10-01-2007, 01:53 AM
 
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IME, babies who are old enough to hold their own bottle are also old enough to hold their own boob to latch on, so it gets easier for everyone around the same time.
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#269 of 420 Old 10-01-2007, 02:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pookel View Post
IME, babies who are old enough to hold their own bottle are also old enough to hold their own boob to latch on, so it gets easier for everyone around the same time.
Oh funny you say that--it's true and I always think of it when the holding the bottle argument ensues. I see it as a kind of developmental thing that maybe children like to do, and I know both my daughters would hold the breast.
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#270 of 420 Old 10-01-2007, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by natural_mama89 View Post
I know that this person didn't say this, but how can we have people talking about the same thing with one person saying that not everyone has a phone, while other people are implying that everyone hes a dishwasher. :
If you're referring to me and the dishwasher, just wanted to say that in no way shape or form was I implying that everyone has a dishwasher. I didn't even SEE a dishwasher until I was about ten, and we only got one at home about a year ago. I was pointing out, the same thing you were pointing out, that all our experiences are different and they're hard to compare. Blanket arguments about what's easy and hard with each method of feeding simply do not work for all cases. In my case, there is no need to heat bottles and sterilize etc. But for other people these ARE valid arguments. In my own little way, I was saying the same thing you were. :
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