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#31 of 49 Old 05-28-2008, 09:34 PM
 
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The reason that suicides are associated with meds are that once the meds begin working, the person has more drive and if they were already suicidal, it gives them the energy to go through with it. That's why someone starting meds needs a lot of therapy in the first weeks/months. They want to follow up with you. But they won't make someone who is not already suicidal start thinking that way all of a sudden.

Depressed people sometimes contemplate suicide. So the meds may look to be to blame, but actually are not. It's like saying that because someone wearing a blue shirt fell down that blue shirts make people fall down. It's just not true.
That's really scary. I had suicidal thoughts and they got severly worse on meds. My dr. pretty much handed me some pills and told me that I needed to be around other women more often. I'm off meds now and although I have bad days that I still think about the fact that my kids would be better off without me, I've yet to picture the suicide in my head like I used to.

Sorry. Totally OT, but I was suprised by the info in your post. I had no idea.
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#32 of 49 Old 05-28-2008, 11:55 PM
 
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Hi All,
I've not had PPD, but severe depression after a trauma. Just stumbled on this thread.

In my own experience, spiritual perspective was not accessible during the worst of my depression, I was just too foggy and confused. But as I started to heal physically, and mental clarity was gained, spiritual perspective came....

And at that point I had to look, as the OP said, at the seeds of story that I was telling myself, and heal that. For me, that part was instrumental in being able to understand, and move on from, the depression itself. It came pretty naturally to me as my mood began to lift.

MSH, thank you for sharing those books and your healing story. It's refreshing to hear someone speak of the inner journey of healing depression, in addition to the crisis management aspects.
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#33 of 49 Old 05-29-2008, 12:05 PM
 
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So the meds may look to be to blame, but actually are not. It's like saying that because someone wearing a blue shirt fell down that blue shirts make people fall down. It's just not true.

This is called "confounding". In both philosophy and statistics, correlation does NOT or should not imply causation and can be problematic when identifying cause.

A good example (and PLEASE read ALL of this paragraph before freaking out) is the "breastfeeding makes kids smarter" argument. I breastfed my baby, I loved doing it, I'll do it for all my kids and it was best for both him and me. Breastfeeding is superior if you can do it. And for health reasons it is definitely best...however the argument about breastfeeding making kids smarter doesn't hold up from a biostatistics standpoint. Why?

Well....turns out the moms who breastfeed are (on the whole) smarter and better educated. It isn't milk that makes kids smart, it the genetics that the smart women who breastfeed pass on. Confounding at work....

But back to the topic....I will say that while I didn't have suicidal ideation, all my symptoms did get temporarily worse when I started meds. And then...everything got better. Not sure why that happens. Either way, a few days of suckiness vs. relief. No competition for me.
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#34 of 49 Old 05-31-2008, 01:49 AM
 
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The reason that suicides are associated with meds are that once the meds begin working, the person has more drive and if they were already suicidal, it gives them the energy to go through with it. That's why someone starting meds needs a lot of therapy in the first weeks/months. They want to follow up with you. But they won't make someone who is not already suicidal start thinking that way all of a sudden.

Depressed people sometimes contemplate suicide. So the meds may look to be to blame, but actually are not. It's like saying that because someone wearing a blue shirt fell down that blue shirts make people fall down. It's just not true.
thanks again mom0810. this is what i was told when i was first put on anti-depressants nearly 10 years ago. i had a bad reaction to Zoloft and was then put on Celexa which was a better fit. a good doctor will follow very closely after medication is started to be sure that the patient is responding positively and that the medication is a good fit.

Mummy to dd (Jan 13, '07) born by emergency c-section at 35 weeks due to severe pre-e  :ribboncesarean.gif and ds (Jan 30 '09) :hbac.gif and stork-suprise.gif    (06/11)
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#35 of 49 Old 06-07-2008, 02:00 AM
 
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I'd like to chime in. I haven't posted in awhile, I think the last time I posted, I was in the throes.

I had PPD with suicidal thoughts, but no intention of carrying them out. I finally made a few big life changes. Started phone consultations with Dr. Bennett (author of PPD for Dummies), ended a toxic relationship, and got on Prozac. About two weeks in, things shifted.

I came across Ho'oponopono (a Hawaiian healing process), which sounds kind of similar to what the OP is talking about. It is about the spiritual aspect, and taking responsibilty, NOT BLAME, for your life. I won't get into the details, you can look it up if you're interested...

BUT, also, as some others mentioned, when I was in the throes, I was not interested in shifting. I just felt sh*tty and didn't want to do a damn thing. As the meds began to work, as peace returned to my home, as my physical strength increased and the fog began to clear, I was READY to receive this part of growth. I was ready to love myself. But I also had to proceed with caution, because I did feel the urge at one point to stop the meds, thinking I didn't need them, but I reminded myself that the meds were part of the WHOLE of healing that got me to the receptive point. (did that make any sense??)

I understand both the OP and also everything that mom0810 is pointing out. I'd like to thank both for sharing, and everyone else who added to this discussion.

If I had read this thread when I was in the throes, I may have gotten defensive about it, thinking to the OP "Easy for her to say, she's not in MY situation!" But I can see the depth to it now that I am recovering, and do appreciate her sharing, and I hope that we can remain open.

To all those in the throes or even in early recovery, huge hugs. There is no one way to heal from PPD, and it may be true that it is 10 different ways that work for one person. Now that I am recovering, I can look back and see that there are so many factors that create/add to PPD. I believe getting professional support was my first step that gave me strength to change some other things in my life, and also to try meds. And I think the meds helped my brain clear back to what feels like "normal" and that gave me the strength to give myself proper nutrition, and as things got better, I delved into my spirituality more. Its a journey. There is no one way to get there.

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#36 of 49 Old 06-08-2008, 11:59 PM
 
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Mommyshoppinghabit thank you so much! I suffer from PPD and I am not going the meds route. they never worked for me, just made me numb, and sleepy. I will check those books ou.t DH and I were talking about it last Sunday he will be glad to hear that it worked for someone
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#37 of 49 Old 06-18-2008, 02:02 AM
 
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Actually the recommendation of The Work by Byron Katie is a superb suggestion. As a doula and midwife I do birth trauma work with women who are depressed, not depressed and everything in between and The Work is the one consistent way I see improvement and my clients proclaim relief.
Byron Katie and this practice doesn't lay blame on anyone at all - what actually happens in the process is a keen awareness that thoughts are just that - thoughts and we have the power to challenge them - even when we believe them with every ounce of our beings. That's the thing about our thoughts, eh, if we believe them so profoundly then we will never challenge the truth or lack thereof. Here's the grace - The Work doesn't even ask you to let go of your beliefs - simply to return to your own mind, embrace your wisdom and challenge what you've been telling yourself (which you still can do even in the throws of however one wants to define PPD)...all in four simple questions!
It is positively miraculous !
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#38 of 49 Old 06-18-2008, 10:06 AM
 
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Yes but PPD as many of us have experienced is NOT ABOUT THOUGHTS AT ALL. I think The Work has it's place, but not as a frontline in treating PPD, which has physical, as well as mental symptoms. Any more than reading a book about sugar can cure diabetes, or thoughts can cure asthma or heart disease....

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#39 of 49 Old 06-18-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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Yes but PPD as many of us have experienced is NOT ABOUT THOUGHTS AT ALL. I think The Work has it's place, but not as a frontline in treating PPD, which has physical, as well as mental symptoms. Any more than reading a book about sugar can cure diabetes, or thoughts can cure asthma or heart disease....

Once again, :

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#40 of 49 Old 06-18-2008, 04:21 PM
 
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Yes but PPD as many of us have experienced is NOT ABOUT THOUGHTS AT ALL. I think The Work has it's place, but not as a frontline in treating PPD, which has physical, as well as mental symptoms. Any more than reading a book about sugar can cure diabetes, or thoughts can cure asthma or heart disease....
soo you are saying that everyone experiences PPD the same way???
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#41 of 49 Old 06-18-2008, 04:38 PM
 
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soo you are saying that everyone experiences PPD the same way???
How are you getting that? She said:

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Yes but PPD as many of us have experienced is NOT ABOUT THOUGHTS AT ALL.
See the bolded.

I'm not her, obviously - but I thought I would point that out...

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#42 of 49 Old 06-19-2008, 12:39 AM
 
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I think what sofysmommy meant (and please correct me if my assumption is way off base!), is that not all who experience PPD have such physical symptoms. Maybe a few, but for some, it may be more of a mental experience.

As for myself, I experienced mental, physical, etc.. and in my case, I benefited from antidepressants, which got me to a place where concepts such as Ho'oponopono and The Work could be well received by my brain.

I don't think anyone was suggesting these things as a forefront for treating ppd, just that we all have different experiences, and here is something that worked for someone. I think its great to share all these different aspects! It is just one more option for us to consider.

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#43 of 49 Old 06-19-2008, 12:59 AM
 
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I think what sofysmommy meant (and please correct me if my assumption is way off base!), is that not all who experience PPD have such physical symptoms. Maybe a few, but for some, it may be more of a mental experience.

As for myself, I experienced mental, physical, etc.. and in my case, I benefited from antidepressants, which got me to a place where concepts such as Ho'oponopono and The Work could be well received by my brain.

I don't think anyone was suggesting these things as a forefront for treating ppd, just that we all have different experiences, and here is something that worked for someone. I think its great to share all these different aspects! It is just one more option for us to consider
.
yes!! exactly
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#44 of 49 Old 06-19-2008, 11:41 AM
 
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I am getting a strange "I must have last word; I am right vibe" which doesn't need to come into play here at all. Perhaps there are still some unvalidated feelings, huh?
Yes, PPD CAN lead to physical and emotional and physic and mental and ..and... and.. and the list goes on...symptoms. No doubt. This is sounding a bit like a hospital floor where women compete to storytell their birth nightmares.
The Work alleviates all kinds of symptoms - just because the it's done in the mind doesn't mean it won't have an effect on the rest of the body. No one is bashing anyone for taking meds - do the best thing for you but don't presume that others won't find healing without.
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#45 of 49 Old 06-19-2008, 01:56 PM
 
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No, it's not that at all.... there is just a danger when discussing what works or what doesn't when dealing with women in a delicate state such as PPD. And a woman who is in the throes of it and is experiencing mental and physical symptoms s he may not even realize are PPD can be made to feel very inferior or very anxious because she is taking meds. This is a natural living forum, so people here may feel that meds are against their personal philosophy (as I did at first). I just want to advocate for those who do need them because PPD is a physiological problem. The fact is, if you are not having those symptoms, then it could just be the "baby blues," which could be helped by The Work, or any other self hep program. PPD goes beyond feeling a bit down and gets into feelings of hopelessness and despair that one may not even realize they are having. And physical pain and not sleeping, and not eating or even thinking to eat.... these are all very different and are when people need to think about medication.

Mom to two beautiful boys, now in school to be a therapist and help other women with PPD.  
 

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#46 of 49 Old 06-19-2008, 05:37 PM
 
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I just want to advocate for those who do need them because PPD is a physiological problem. The fact is, if you are not having those symptoms, then it could just be the "baby blues," which could be helped by The Work, or any other self hep program. PPD goes beyond feeling a bit down and gets into feelings of hopelessness and despair that one may not even realize they are having. And physical pain and not sleeping, and not eating or even thinking to eat.... these are all very different and are when people need to think about medication.
I think we need to be very careful when saying something like this as well, because just as someone in the throes of PPD may have those symptoms and may benefit from meds (as I did), someone could also be in the throes of PPD without too many physical symptoms, and something like The Work or other similar concepts could be in fact very beneficial. There is a fine line we are walking when stating that it is a fact that PPD is a physiological problem, because there are so many possible factors involved with PPD. Scientist don't know for sure what causes PPD and there is still debate about its origins, so I think we should be careful when stating things to be "facts". I'm not saying that it isn't physiological, just that there could be a lot more to it than just the physical side. And who is to say that someone isn't experiencing feeling hopelessness, overwhelm, despair, and thoughts of ending one's life without having severe insomnia or physical anxiety? There is a wide array of combinations of sypmtoms out there.

I was at first scared of and against taking meds, and wanted to try natural things first. Reading a thread like this would not have swayed me that much to be honest. I would have thought to myself "Oh, well, maybe I'll give that a try, and if I don't see any results from that either, then I will try meds." Or someone could read the thread and just know that it wasn't right for them. Or someone could read the thread and think "Hey! That might work for me!" I don't feel anxious about me taking meds by reading about others who didn't need them. In fact, it gives me hope about the possibilities that are out there for us.

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#47 of 49 Old 06-21-2008, 10:56 AM
 
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#48 of 49 Old 06-24-2008, 08:47 PM
 
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What I am concerned with is people seeing this thread and thinking , "oh, it's MY fault. My thoughts are to blame. All I have to do is this work and then I'm fixed." It's a slippery slope. Because the nature of PPD is to blame yourself for feeling the way you are, anyway. If you say to someone that it is their thoughts that are causing the trouble, or their own perception of the world around them... it's very very harmful in a case of severe depression or PPD or PTSD following childbirth.
haven't read the entire thread but wanted to comment on this. I have suffered with severe PPD several times, manifested in different ways. i was profoundly offended at the ideas presented by CBT. however, cognitive behavior therapy DOES work for a lot of people, ppd or not, with drugs and without. i recommend working with a group or therapist though.

Laura, mama to J (15), N (12), E (9) , M (6), and our little caboose, R (3).
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#49 of 49 Old 06-25-2008, 08:33 PM
 
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Mom0810, you've made it a crusade to underline the fact that PPD is hormonal. In most cases, I'm not disagreeing. I said in the first line of the first post that there are some that truly need meds, but for someone like me, something else worked. What were my symptoms? Feeling like I had been run over by a steamroller, traumatized and feeling like I was surrounded in darkness. I went to a mood center for women at a large hospital. You'd think someplace that caters to womens mood disorders could distinguish hormonal from situational PPD. The woman whom I went to every week was not only a counselor but also a holistic midwife. She counseled me on changing my outlook on a practical level (like just relax a bit about things not going right) gave me the same questionairre that is posted here on this board to determine if I had PPD, and after I answered the questions, she said OK, it sounds like you do have some PPD going on there. She asked me do you want to give the vitamins and supplements a try or do you want to go straight to the medication? I said the natural way of course. So she wrote out a how much cod liver oil to take, what kind of B-vitamin to go buy, and even the names of some Bachs Flower Remedies. After two weeks, I told her they weren't having any effect so she spoke to the psychiatrist at the center and they put me on Zoloft. The Zoloft made me suicidal, so they switched me to Paxil. I was on Paxil for 8 months before I myself made the determination that I should stop. I told them and they said since I had already made up my mind, there's nothing more they had to say to me.
So maybe I did have situational depression, but who is differentiating out there in the world of healthcare providers? I don't hear of many. You know your body best. If you feel like it's betraying you, then maybe it's time for some chemical intervention. But I feel that in the realm of depression, even here on MDC, the spiritual component has been ignored. And I don't mean spiritual as in religion. I mean spiritual from a scientific aspect. Does that sound paradoxical? It isn't. You are not this body. You are the stillness underneath that is aware of what is happening inside of you.

Thank you SO much for sharing this. You have no idea how much it has helped me. Thank you for your persistance on something you believe in. Sometimes it takes a strong woman to not give up to truely reach the ones that needed to see/read this.

Thanks again
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