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Do you or don't you "do" Santa??

1K views 17 replies 12 participants last post by  Ilaria 
#1 ·
Once again, Christmas looms, a very big deal in our house as DH is a "sort of" Catholic (meaning, he goes to mass at funerals and weddings), and I used to be Catholic, and have a HUGE Irish Catholic family.

So, we celebrate Christmas, but I don't talk about Santa at all, and DH does. I don't because I think it is not a great idea to indulge the youngest dd in a story that isn't true. DH does talk about Santa, and strangely, dd2 does not come to me for reality testing (which is okay with me, I guess).

Since Montessori really embraces the real world, it luckily does not come up in dd2's Montessori class (and dd1 went to a Catholic Montessori, so Santa was never a class area of discussion, but there were lots of really pretty songs about Mary, Joseph and Baby Jesus at "Christmas Family Sharing Time", as well as some very pretty songs from other religious backgrounds as many children at that school were from other religions/faiths), but I am still a little uneasy about the whole thing.

A dad who is on the board of dd2's Montessori with me and I had a really interesting discussion after our last meeting; he is an agnostic but attends a Unitarian church, his wife is deeply Catholic, and he always tells his sons the truth about his faith or lack of, yet still indulges in the Santa Story, while I do neither, except tell dds that I really don't know or understand the whole religion thing, but that there probably is a creator who is so complex I can't even begin to understand, and that in my way of thinking, Jesus was a representative of that creator to guide people in a better direction (same as the buddha, and all the prophets, and Mohammed, etc).

I guess I am just looking for your own take on this, to me, very complicated question......

PS I also do not talk at all about the tooth fairy, or the Easter bunnie, or anything like that, but DH does and interestingly so far neither daughter has come to me with questions (DD1 outgrew such beliefs around age 7).

And if you think I should relax and not worry about such a trivial thing, let me know, that will be taken under consideration too!
 
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#2 ·
I think this is a really personal choice. I will just tell you my perspective but to be clear: I totally support whatever approach people take!

I do believe in the reality-based approach that Montessori uses in the preschool years, because I do think that kids that age are largely hard-wired to explore their immediate, physical surroundings.

At the same time I think there is a deep, human tradition of story. Many if not most human cultures have some kind of oral tradition. I personally believe that there is an important rite of passage going from the wide-eyed believing child to the skeptical adolescent to the adult teller of tales and keeper of traditions. For me Santa fits really firmly in that category (although is only one possible tale). It's this story that you believe in as a young child and then the wider world starts to occur to you... how come the poor kids don't get as good gifts? How come the Jewish kids don't have Santa?

And then, ideally, you are lovingly brought over the river in a sense - you move from the person who gets the treats (we don't do major gifts) to the person who knows about them and eventually to the person who gets to stay up and stuff stockings. I remember the first time it occured to me, when I was around 15, that I could deviate from the standard operating procedure and ADD things to my parents stockings. Oh ho ho!

To me this kind of thing is really important. I find that in our society we have eliminated so many passages along the way from baby to adult and so many of them are sheerly sexual or commercial/consumer (first car) that we are not helping our children navigate the kind of mix of disappointment/deeper understanding/joy of that shift of responsibility from get-er to give-er; told to teller of tales.

For me when you say: "I think it is not a great idea to indulge the youngest dd in a story that isn't true," I personally think you might be missing out on a huge part of human experience which is not lies but fiction. There is a difference, to me anyway.

Well that's my piece. It is not intended as a criticism at all!
 
#3 ·
Hmm...we are having the whole discussion here as well, so I don't know that I have answers for you - but will try to hash out my thoughts on the issue as I write. We are both catholic, so no issues on religion - but we differ in our upbringing. DH is from Poland where santa is not emphasized. Instead, St. Nick brings a small gift on his feast day (12/2? or something), and then the entire holiday is about God/Jesus and there may or may not be a small gift on Christmas morning. The tree goes up Christmas Eve, huge 12 course traditional meatless meal on that night, church at midnight - tree up till another Holy day in Feb - the whole 9 yards. As different from my "normal" midwest American upbringing could be. Sure we did church and Jesus in the manger type of stuff, but we also had Santa down the chimney and stuffed stockings, woke up to a tree full of presents, etc.

Fast forward to our first Christmas with kids (that will remember the holiday as ds is 3 now). We've fluffed prior years with him either being too young, or traveling. This year we need to come up with a plan. What should we do?

Right now we are leaning towards allowing the santa to bring gifts on Christmas morning, but not emphasizing this part of the season. If we explain who he is at all, we will discuss the actual St. Nick and his feast day. We'll do a tree and decorations more on my schedule (1-2 weeks up total), and hit hard the story about Jesus in the manger.

Really though, we need to fine tune our game plan. We are only planning 1-2 gifts per child, plus stockings. I'm willing to do the gifts on St. Nick's feast day and only stockings on Christmas morning if that makes it "easier" - I just can't decide. DH is trying to avoid the entire thing by finding us a vacation to take!!!! LOL

Really I guess I'm just lurking for additional thoughts suggestions...
 
#4 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post

At the same time I think there is a deep, human tradition of story. Many if not most human cultures have some kind of oral tradition. I personally believe that there is an important rite of passage going from the wide-eyed believing child to the skeptical adolescent to the adult teller of tales and keeper of traditions. For me Santa fits really firmly in that category (although is only one possible tale). It's this story that you believe in as a young child and then the wider world starts to occur to you... how come the poor kids don't get as good gifts? How come the Jewish kids don't have Santa?
Well said!! You managed to say how I feel when I couldn't express it very well myself. Thanks!
 
#5 ·
I have never brought up Santa with ds, but oddly enough his Montessori school has Kris Kringle day with was irritating to me because we buy a gift, address it to ds from Kris Kringle and sneak it into school. The kids find it under the tree on Kris Kringle Day. Ds suddenly started talking about Santa since the kids in his class do. Dh and I decided to play along just a bit, we say (only when he brings it up) that the stocking is from Santa and the rest is from us. I hope that that way it isn't such a big deal, that not all of Christmas is Santa. He insisted on getting his picture taken with Santa at the mall last year even though he is soooo shy and it was really hard for him. He seems to really want to believe in this.
 
#6 ·
I agree with GuildJenn about the importance of story. We did Santa when my daughter was little, complete with snowy footprints on the hearth, carrots gnawed by reindeer and, in the spirit of Tolkien, an annual letter from Santa. As she got older, we talked to her about how the Santa story is a way for people to express a big concept that is important to them in a way that people can relate to. We also talked about how having faith in something like Santa coming at Christmas can give people a sense of wonder, comfort, and joy during what can be a scary, cold, and sad time of year. As atheists, we see all myths and religious stories as serving that purpose so, for us, we wouldn't see a conflict between Santa-related rituals and other faith-based rituals.
 
#7 ·
School hasn't brought up Santa, but my mother insists on it. I have issues from finding out at 6 that my parents were liars.
I have never mentioned Santa and I don't plan to.

Here's my explanation if it ever comes up: Santa delivers toys to children who believe, but Mommy and Daddy will buy toys no matter what DS chooses to believe.
 
#10 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
At the same time I think there is a deep, human tradition of story. Many if not most human cultures have some kind of oral tradition. I personally believe that there is an important rite of passage going from the wide-eyed believing child to the skeptical adolescent to the adult teller of tales and keeper of traditions. For me Santa fits really firmly in that category (although is only one possible tale). It's this story that you believe in as a young child and then the wider world starts to occur to you... how come the poor kids don't get as good gifts? How come the Jewish kids don't have Santa?

Totally agree!

I let my kids have santa and beleive, I enjoyed santa as a kid... I never thought to myself, "my gawd, my parents LIED to me"... For me it's a right of passage, and tradition. And part of the wonder and magic of the season for my son.
 
#11 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
For me when you say: "I think it is not a great idea to indulge the youngest dd in a story that isn't true," I personally think you might be missing out on a huge part of human experience which is not lies but fiction. There is a difference, to me anyway.
A couple of points:

First of all, it is only fiction if it is being presented as fiction. In most households, Santa is not presented as fiction but as fact. Presenting fiction as fact is deception, pure and simple. The issue is whether it is an acceptable form of deception. I fail to see why presenting Santa as a story rather than as a fact cannot satisfy the human need for story telling. Why do we have to tell children that it is true?

From a Montessori perspective, I think that Santa is totally at odds with the whole Montessori method not only of emphasising reality but of respecting children as equal human beings and not deceiving them just because we can because they are too gullible and naive to know any better.

Secondly, I really do not agree with the idea that kids who don't grow up with Santa are "missing out on a huge part of human experience". Why? Most children in the world do not grow up with Santa. Are they really all "missing out"?

I personally believe that the most mystical, magical part of the Christmas celebration has nothing to do with Santa and everything to do with the original Christmas story of the birth of Christ, the shepherds, the angels, etc. And for a religious family who believes in the miraculous birth of Christ, I really do not see how we are somehow robbing children of their childhood just because the family does not "do" the fat man coming down the chimney as well. Why can't belief in the original Christmas story satisfy the human tradition of story? At least in that case, the parents believe what they are telling.
 
#12 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
A couple of points:

First of all, it is only fiction if it is being presented as fiction. In most households, Santa is not presented as fiction but as fact. Presenting fiction as fact is deception, pure and simple. The issue is whether it is an acceptable form of deception. I fail to see why presenting Santa as a story rather than as a fact cannot satisfy the human need for story telling. Why do we have to tell children that it is true?

From a Montessori perspective, I think that Santa is totally at odds with the whole Montessori method not only of emphasising reality but of respecting children as equal human beings and not deceiving them just because we can because they are too gullible and naive to know any better.

Secondly, I really do not agree with the idea that kids who don't grow up with Santa are "missing out on a huge part of human experience". Why? Most children in the world do not grow up with Santa. Are they really all "missing out"?

I personally believe that the most mystical, magical part of the Christmas celebration has nothing to do with Santa and everything to do with the original Christmas story of the birth of Christ, the shepherds, the angels, etc. And for a religious family who believes in the miraculous birth of Christ, I really do not see how we are somehow robbing children of their childhood just because the family does not "do" the fat man coming down the chimney as well. Why can't belief in the original Christmas story satisfy the human tradition of story? At least in that case, the parents believe what they are telling.
Wow, I can tell this hit a nerve with you.

I didn't mean to imply that if people are not doing Santa in particular that they are robbing their kids of childhood or anything similar.

What I meant to say, probably badly, is that we do present many fictions to our children in various ways, often quite seriously. I think that's normal and fine. I find the insistence on literal truth can be a little negating of a whole creative or spiritual aspect of human beings.

I'm not Christian, so I consider the story of baby Jesus to be a pretty good example of a beautiful human story that is often presented as fact, but likely isn't. (I might buy into the adult Jesus more.) We know pretty much that the birth story is unlikely to be absolutely true as presented in carols and tradition, but it still has deep meaning for Christians.

I don't think being Christian is "at odds with the Montessori method" even if I don't personally believe in virgin birth, angel choirs, wise men, even so far as casting out of demons, etc.

Other examples include things like the stories of some of my ancestors, for example, the Woman who Fell from the Sky. Is sharing these stories as fact somehow against the Montessori method? Because that is our spiritual heritage in my family as well as the Christian side and the cultural Santa Claus. And it can be very insulting if you start to cherry-pick and say "well it's true that God created the earth in seven days, but it's not true that Sea Turtle exists."

I hope you see what I mean. I am not insulting Christianity. I am merely saying that to my mind, there are always stories that are told, and some we grow to understand differently as we grow up, and others we don't, and there is nothing wrong with presenting them in the cultural ways in which we feel comfortable.
 
#13 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
I'm not Christian, so I consider the story of baby Jesus to be a pretty good example of a beautiful human story that is often presented as fact, but likely isn't. (I might buy into the adult Jesus more.) We know pretty much that the birth story is unlikely to be absolutely true as presented in carols and tradition, but it still has deep meaning for Christians.
Er, I think there are a lot of Christians out there who are presenting the Christmas story as fiction but as something true, quite literally. Supernatural and true.

I distinguish between religion and Santa precisely because religion, at least for those who sincerely do believe, is not normally presented as fiction at all. On other hand, I don't know any adults who really believe in Santa. It really is just a lie, pure and simple. The Christmas story, well, noone really knows and believing is a question of faith in something supernatural that no one can prove. (Incidentally, if I really did not believe that Jesus was ever born to a virgin in a stable, I would present the Christmas story as fiction as well, not as something that actually happened.)

Santa? Well, he doesn't leave presents at anyone's house that I know and to tell my daugther that her presents come from him is just plain not something I believe. It is something I know to be false. I would tell it as a story, not as truth.
 
#14 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
Er, I think there are a lot of Christians out there who are presenting the Christmas story as fiction but as something true, quite literally. Supernatural and true.

I distinguish between religion and Santa precisely because religion, at least for those who sincerely do believe, is not normally presented as fiction at all. On other hand, I don't know any adults who really believe in Santa. It really is just a lie, pure and simple. The Christmas story, well, noone really knows and believing is a question of faith in something supernatural that no one can prove. (Incidentally, if I really did not believe that Jesus was ever born to a virgin in a stable, I would present the Christmas story as fiction as well, not as something that actually happened.)

Santa? Well, he doesn't leave presents at anyone's house that I know and to tell my daugther that her presents come from him is just plain not something I believe. It is something I know to be false. I would tell it as a story, not as truth.
Well, in my house we adults understand that a man called Santa doesn't come down the chimney in person with a sleigh, etc. However, Jesus doesn't sit on my front doorstep either, y'know?

We believe that in midwinter there is occasion to pause in the daily grind of every day life, and share wealth with family and friends and community - what's often called "the Christmas spirit" although it's certainly not exclusive to Christmas, or Eid, or Yule. It just seems to me that there is something, yes, almost magical about human beings sitting in the winter darkness, and the deciding to share light and warmth and joy and food.

And I think baby Jesus is another expression of that, but I find Santa more accessible.

So... I don't see the distinction you're making and that's really the core of my point - for me (not talking about what people should do, they can do whatever they like). I still think there is something innately human about stories with a supernatural element that demonstrates something that is perhaps less supernatural but equally complex.

And I think that the presentation of them as "fact" or "fact-nudge-nudge-wink-wink" is pretty basic to the human experience, too. For me it's kind of like training wheels on the spiritual bike. Children have a belief in what is perhaps a simpler story, and then as they grow they will engage in questioning the story and form their own beliefs and observations, and then confirm that by asking. Whether it's framed as religious questioning that grows into a deeper faith, or a rationalization with reality, I still think it's part of the whole process.

At midwinter there is a long human tradition of a story about someone who does something for someone else for the inexplicable reason of love. For my family, Santa is a nice way to introduce the concept. I'm actually much more comfortable with that than Herod chasing Mary and Joseph and Jesus around.
 
#15 ·
Quote:
For me it's kind of like training wheels on the spiritual bike. Children have a belief in what is perhaps a simpler story, and then as they grow they will engage in questioning the story and form their own beliefs and observations, and then confirm that by asking. Whether it's framed as religious questioning that grows into a deeper faith, or a rationalization with reality, I still think it's part of the whole process.

At midwinter there is a long human tradition of a story about someone who does something for someone else for the inexplicable reason of love. For my family, Santa is a nice way to introduce the concept. I'm actually much more comfortable with that than Herod chasing Mary and Joseph and Jesus around.
I distinguish religion from Santa because I am assuming that with religion, the adults recounting the story actually DO believe that it happened. They are therefore not lying. They are telling their kids what they REALLY believe. They might be completely misinformed but they are not engaged in wilful deception which, again, from my personal point of view, is just plain disrespectful to the child. I would never suggest that parents who do not believe the Jesus story tell their kids about it (except as a matter of simple education about other religions) and celebrate it.

I just don't get telling kids something that I myself don't believe.

As for training wheels, I have always thought that it makes way more sense to skip them altogether and get a kid a first bike when she is ready to ride one without them. Training wheels tend to serve as a crutch way longer than necessary once introduced.
 
#16 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
I distinguish religion from Santa because I am assuming that with religion, the adults recounting the story actually DO believe that it happened. They are therefore not lying. They are telling their kids what they REALLY believe. They might be completely misinformed but they are not engaged in wilful deception which, again, from my personal point of view, is just plain disrespectful to the child. I would never suggest that parents who do not believe the Jesus story tell their kids about it (except as a matter of simple education about other religions) and celebrate it.

I just don't get telling kids something that I myself don't believe.

As for training wheels, I have always thought that it makes way more sense to skip them altogether and get a kid a first bike when she is ready to ride one without them. Training wheels tend to serve as a crutch way longer than necessary once introduced.

Eh, I'm not in a rush to be without the crutch.


But with Santa, I do believe there was a St. Nicholas and all that. I just don't see the "willful deception" that you do. I think Santa is a representation of something in the human experience - the magic of unconditional love; love that gives without expectation. That is very real to me and I have no problems presenting it as such. I actually personally find it much easier to believe in than some details around Jesus's supposed life, like virgin births.

That some of the details are fiction and that my child will discover that... on his own journey through our culture... is fine, and he'll get to move (I hope) from receiver of tales and gifts to giver of tales and gifts.

Anyways I think we're about where we're going to get to.
 
#17 ·
We are not an M family yet, I am considering it for my son's school next year (he is a young 3). We are not doing Santa this year. If anything, we will pretend about Santa, and talk about Santa as a story. We may do the cookies/milk, etc. for fun but the kids will generally know that Santa is pretend.

So we're definitely not going to be making lists to Santa, etc. etc. I had a poor experience with a mall Santa when DS was younger (not jolly at all) and so I don't see the point of a lot of it.
 
#18 ·
We do Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter bunny...Because I am Italian, we also do the Befana (Jan 6), the Topolino (for teeth) and Gesù Bambino (he is the one who brought stuff to me as a kid, Baby Jesus, on Xmas Day)....

pretty much for all the reasons GuildJenn said...I loved it as a child. I dont go out of my way to talk about them much, we pretty much just go along with what my kids hear and choose to believe. I could have been convinced to forego this tradition, but dh really loves it and I enjoy it too.

My kids' Montessori school is not officially but factually a Catholic school, due to the country we lve in, so the focus is on the religious aspect.
 
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