granolamom wrote - about the removal of offensive statements from recent translations of Steiner:
>Isn't it a good thing that pro-Waldorf and Anthroposophy >people recognize and filter out those negative statements?
You can't be serious. I fear you are. To *delete* the offensive material in a new translation, without comment, is hardly the same thing as addressing the issue. It's hiding, secrecy. It's meant to silence the criticism, pretend it never happened. It's unethical. It's also pathetic as scholarship, and this is the foundation of an educational movement?
>Oh, so you're a member of the Waldorf Critics organization. >Well, at least I know where you are coming from now.
Okay. You know where I'm coming from. I had a child in Waldorf for three years and worked for 2 years as a Waldorf teaching assistant, and planned to become a Waldorf teacher. I was a very involved Waldorf parent. I became disillusioned after I saw the abuses and dysfunction in this so-called "spiritual" education.
>Well, if I hadn't just edited down my sig file you would know >that I am conducting a Steiner Book Study right now. I'm >reading "Theosophy" right now. It's boring as heck, and not my >cup of tea but I am reading it.
I don't know what your reading of Theosophy has to do with this. Talk about ethics - while you imply slimy things about Waldorf critics, you have made a false accusation. I am still seeing red over the charge that critics of Waldorf have simply *made up* Steiner quotes.. Amazing! An amazing charge. I suggest you read a bit past Theosophy if you honestly are able to kid yourself that those Steiner quotes are fabricated! Can I ask you if you really believe someone made these quotes up? If that's what you believe, why do you think someone would make up quotes from the founder of Waldorf education?
Do you not think we are real people too? We were happy Waldorf parents, we were moms you met and did committees with and exchanged play dates with, baked and knitted and gardened and organized open houses, etc. . . .
>From the actions of *many* members of the Waldorf Critics >group I do not have a high regard for the >organization as a >whole. What first brought me to the Mothering.Com forums is >that a post was taken off >a mailing list and posted to the >critics list WITHOUT THE AUTHORS PERMISSION.
This is a public forum. There is much confusion about that on the Internet, I realize. You need to realize you are presently posting in a public place. Anyone in the world who sits down at a computer with an Internet connection can read what we are presesntly saying. I agree with you, however, that it isn't always the right thing, to quote people who don't understand that they can be quoted so easily, when they don't understand this and don't realize their words may be repeated elsewhere.
Still, it seems we are talking about ethics, and I have seen nothing from the critics to rival the false accusation you made in saying that material on the Waldorf critics site is fabricated. That is a serious charge which you seem to have made quite lightly! I could not believe my eyes that you were saying this so blithely and without any idea what you are talking about.
>After her post was laughed at it was posted HERE, again >without the author's knowing about it or her >permission. She >found out because a friend of hers is here and saw it and >emailed her about the issue.
I think I know what you're talking about, I don't think anyone laughed at her. I recall there being concern about the children involved. She had some kind of serious situation with some children in her care, and she was trying hard to follow the Waldorf party line that you never speak to a child directly, even if a child is being hurt. She was obviously well intentioned. But we could be talking about two different things. The people I have met through critics do not take posts and pass them around to laugh at them. We are parents like you, probably with a lot in common in parenting, actually, and we know that what we saw in Waldorf was sometimes very damaging to children. We are trying to help people "get it" that Waldorf isn't AP, isn't respectful of children, isn't about love and light - that is *surface* and there is *deeper stuff* that you *need to get* if you sign on long term. That is where this got started for most of us, and believe me it was a long road.
>Events like this have happened on several mailing lists. I have >seen members of the Waldorf Critics join >groups, and boards, >just to cause strife.
We don't talk about Waldorf to "cause strife"; we talk about Waldorf because we spent years and years there, and want to save others the trouble. There is a private mailing list where we try to support people whose kids require therapy, tutoring, and years of confidence re-building post-Waldorf. We hate to think we are going to see some of the younger mothers here, who join a mom-tot group and think it is so beautiful, in a few years, with more damaged kids. We pick up the pieces afterwards. Wake up! It's a front for a cult. We were just where you are a few years ago, thinking it was all about bread baking and celebrating the seasons or something.
>One member will pretend to be a newbie and other members of >WC will respond.
This, like your charge that we are making up quotes, is beyond absurd. Who is pretending to be a "newbie"? What would it even mean to pretend to be a newbie? I am not misrepresenting myself in any way. I check these boards periodically, and a couple of other places where I know that people who might be drawn to Waldorf (generally, attachment parenting people, as I am, to a large extent), and from time to time I comment on Waldorf when the topic comes up. Is there something you find unethical about that? I don't comment on much else because there are only so many hours in a day, I have children and work and a life also. We realize that popping up different places always talking about Waldorf makes us look like we are kind of nuts. (It's called shooting the messenger.) But there isn't any "pretending" involved. We're who we say - former Waldorf parents, determined to tell our experiences in Waldorf.
>That everyone joins within hours of each other is very telling.
Telling of what? That we talk to each other off-line? (yes) If you are implying something worse, I'm not sure what. (Though for the record, I don't think there's anyone else of "us" here right now.) There were a lot of wonderful families at the Waldorf school. Post-Waldorf, I remain friends with many of them and have connected with a lot of other wonderful families who had similar experiences at Waldorf schools all over the world, and continue to support each other in the recovery process. And that's what post-Waldorf is, for many of us and our children - a recovery process, and for a few, later, activism. We do support each other and have become friends, many have met in person, and we work on this together. There is no secret there. You will find the "secret society" mentality alive and well in Waldorf, however. enough for now.