Questions About a Waldorf Education - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 163 Old 04-10-2002, 10:21 PM
 
Winters_Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
heartlight wrote:

yes, the Waldorf list for which I have posted the link does not want to turn into another critics list, so it reserves the conversation for those genuinely interested in Waldorf education and assumes a positive character. They refer the critics to the PLANS site.

************************

Ok. You suggested people look at the SJU list, and these concerns would be answered. My point is just that those concerns are *not* addressed there because they are not allowed to be discussed there.
Diana
Winters_Diana is offline  
#122 of 163 Old 04-10-2002, 10:37 PM
 
Winters_Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Isis wrote:

It is much easier to destroy something than create it.
*****

Well . . . I doubt it, in this case. With 800 schools worldwide, I don't think critics of Waldorf are likely to destroy Waldorf education, and we would be pretty foolish to try.

Moreover, if it is so great, it can take a little heat.

Where do you suppose the criticism comes from, if we are all just "bashers" and negative people? The critics of Waldorf were once Waldorf parents. I loved all the things you love. I worked at the school for almost 3 years, and *struggled*, I can't tell you how hard, to believe that it was the beautiful thing I wanted it to be. Like most Waldorf parents I spent hundreds of hours at the school, committees, open houses, gardening, cooking, painting. I was very enthusiastic.

Now it is actually somewhat painful to be told I am just out to destroy something. I am out to *inform* other parents who are considering Waldorf for all the exact same reasons we did, what the downsides may be. It may be that if you choose Waldorf, you will never have any of the bad experiences we had, but don't you want to know what the big picture is?

The critics are not making stuff up. We are not "bashing" Steiner by simply quoting Steiner. The racist Steiner is there for anyone to read. Few Waldorf parents do because the teachers assure them they don't need to.

Isis:

People are more likely to listen and believe when someone brings forth a negative.

That is the harm in bashing.
*************************

Well, if the negatives aren't true, you're right, but is it still harmful if the negative things *are* true? Then it would be harmful to remain silent, wouldn't it?


Anyway, I find just the opposite about Waldorf, because it attracts very idealistic people. That's a good thing, overall, but actually I find Waldorf supporters singularly incapable of hearing anything negative about Waldorf. We were always being told we just weren't "spiritual" enough.

Isis:
I agree with you that "soft" racism should not be tolerated. I think that most W teachers do not agree with this race theory, and simply choose to ignore it because it is just ridiculous by today's standards and in our multi-cultural society and ever-shrinking world. Most of the teachers I know are thoughtful, spiritual people. The issue for me is not the theory- you can't change the mind of a dead person (RS) but in the silence where there should be debate within the Waldorf movement. This is the trouble when any method, philosophy, institution is based on the works of one individual- we get this hero-worship and rigidity in thought.
*********************
Well, there you are describing all the problems in Waldorf, Isis, so I'm not sure where we even disagree. Yes, this is the trouble when a system is based on the works of one individual, hero worship, rigidity, that about sums it up. But you just want us to be quiet about all this because, why? It's just beautiful anyway? The problem is, in my experience it was not all beautiful anway.

I came to see that it was an extremely rigid and sometimes damaging environment, and that much of their philosophy was derived from 19th century German childrearing theories, which were quite brutal. Steiner was prpobably progressive for his day, but that's not saying much.



Isis:

I have also assisted in Waldorf kindergarten and have noticed no ritualized "hang-ups" about coats- pardon the pun. Where I noticed a lot more rigidity in ritual was in a true Montessori classroom where each set of tools/items had only one perscribed purpose and could only be used this way.
*********************

Yes, I've heard they can be rigid this way too. I wouldn't like that either. It's the problem with dogma, but especially when it's someone's *religious* dogma.

Diana
Winters_Diana is offline  
#123 of 163 Old 04-10-2002, 11:07 PM
 
Winters_Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sanna wrote:

Diane, I did not discount Lisa's statement that some children have been bullied and that some strange notion of non-interference using Karma as a reason was used. Still, she did not back it up, and neither did you.. Where did this occur, by whom, when, and why do you say that it is a big debate? Who is professing that it is a debate.., PLANS???

****************************
What do you want us to do to back it up? We are telling our experiences, and we have talked to numerous people in different parts of the world about similar Waldorf experiences. We can't prove it to you, no. You can take anybody's stories and believe them or not.

I worked in 3 Waldorf kindergartens, all three wildly out of control, unhealthy environments. I kept re-enlisting, believing it was one inexperienced teacher, and then one burnt-out teacher, but seeing the same destructive patterns. Teachers who did not know how to relate to children, whose theory, from Steiner, justified their not answering questions, not making eye contact, not showing warmth for the children. The children were allowed to fight and bully one another, and I was told not to intervene, because the teacher was handling it all by meditating on the children every night.

It was actually a great relief to talk to other people in distant locations who had seen the exact same things, and to understand that there was a pattern to this, and then to study Steiner more closely and understand what they were basing it all on.

Sanna:
Yet, you so easily discredit some very sincere people who are not lying when they say that they had not heard any of this..! I find this rude actually.

Okay. I have to call it like I see it. I have been around the controversy long enough now to be very certain these people are lying when they say they know nothing about it. It's very implausible one could be a Waldorf teacher for 20 years and have never read the racist parts of Steiner or even talked to anyone else who ever had. Every established Waldorf school has someone who handles the periodic uproar over the more offensive aspects of Steiner's writings. Sorry, their denials are just not credible.

Sanna:
Also, would you please cite references about the race theory?? I am sincerely interested. If this is true, that Steiner said this, then it is archaic, and I agree with Isis, that life is evolving, and so must the movement. Because, once again, my friends, and mentor do not apply this 'theory' to their life as teachers. In fact, both of these people are dark! So go figure.

**********************
I believe Lisa just posted some. If you want to read more you can go to the PLANS website, there's lots of it there. Steiner believed the Jews should die out now, they've completed their mission; he believed the genocide of the American Indians was a karmic necessity; some of his followers today believe even the Holocaust was a karmic necessity.

Sanna:
You were a Waldorf Kindergarten assistant. This hardly makes you an expert.
********************
Now who's being rude? I don't claim to be an expert on anything. I am just a mother, and I can only report what I observed in the Waldorf kindergartens. I do believe I saw more than most parents see who aren't in the classroom every day.

Sanna:
And it appears that you along with the others in PLANS have an agenda.

Yes, presenting some of this information to people considering Waldorf schools.


Sanna:
And my feeling is, that Lisa or someone else, brought you over to this thread in order to do more 'damage control'.
*****************************

Yes, Lisa is a friend of mine; we met through the Waldorf critics discussion! I'm not sure what you mean by "damage control" - do you feel Lisa has done someone damage? Is there some reason she shouldn't have "brought me over" - is there something you think is suspicious about that?

Sanna:

If you really have some current proof, not based in old world philosophy, but real proof that this is being practiced regularily, then please post. I have to say though, I sincerely doubt that it can be pervasive. If, so many teachers are not even aware of, and practicing what you all claim.
***********************
Sanna, you can dismiss "old world philosophy" if you want; the point is, the teachers study this old world philosophy. *I'm* not interested in it - Waldorf teachers are. I sat through countless study sessions and faculty meetings poring over the most obscure Steiner texts, figuring out how to apply it to the children in the classroom.

I can assure you they believe firmly in the karma theory, and Steiner's version of karma - unlike some Eastern versions, such as the Hindus espouse - is racist. Dark-skinned children are believed to be trying to progress to ligher-skinned races.

They take their Steiner dead seriously, trust me.

Sanna:
If you have none of these things, then please cut it out, and return to your cosy PLANS where you can all agree on something that is not even true!!!?
**********************

Okay, well, at least it's clear who's being rude to who.
Diana
Winters_Diana is offline  
#124 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 02:46 AM
 
momof2teens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally posted by isis
Maybe others are fooled, but I am not. Lisa, let's face it PLANS (aren't you the VP?) are on a smear campaign because they ;/ are mad and want to gather as many others as they ;/ can find and exact revenge.

Hi Isis,

I am Debra Snell, the President of PLANS. I wandered over here because I was wondering where everyone on our list went! LOL! It has been over six years since my children attended a Waldorf program. I feel sorry for anyone who can hang on to anger *that* long. My anger is long gone. PLANS is a service organization. We have many researchers who just love doing their jobs! Some of them are now studying Steiner's gurus! Finding out just where he really got his information. Some of us doubted that he really could have read the akashic record. Remember in 'The Wizard of Oz' when

PLANS receives so many thank you notes for providing the information that we do. We have helped other families like ours avoid a Waldorf disaster. Clearly people like us do not belong there and I'm sure you can understand that. If I had any idea that Waldorf schools were under the guardianship of Lucifer, I would have bypassed their door completely. I wasn't looking for an occult school.

I have many opportunities to listen to all kinds of different Waldorf schoools enrollment rallies. Everytime I hear the talk, I want to enroll my kids all over again. Really! I still want what they advertise. I still want what they say they offer!

For those of you who love Waldorf, I say great. Each to his own and more power to you. For others considering Waldorf I say this: You better learn who Steiner was before you enroll your kids because your children will spend many hours alone with him. Ask any Waldorf teacher if he/she disagrees with anything Steiner said. If they say 'Yes.' get them to tell you what they disagree with.

Isis:
Let's put this into perspective.

Waldorf schools are PRIVATE.

Debra:

Waldorf schools are speading within the public sector like wildfire. (Charter schools)

Isis:

No one HAS to enroll their children.

Debra:

Exactly. Getting back to the comparrison of ordering pizza, I'll one-up Lisa's
Chesseburger parable with this:

It's like going into a resturant that advertises itself as vegitarian, ording a salad, bread and herbal ice tea. When the order comes, it is really a cheeseburger, fries and coke. I say, "Excuse me. I ordered a salad, bread and herbal ice tea. Isn't this a vegitarian resturant?"

The waitress replies, "This *is* what a real salad, bread and herbal ice tea is. Everyone else has mislabeled them."

Truth matters,
Debra







Everyone is FREE to read Rudolf Steiner and make their own choices.
momof2teens is offline  
#125 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 10:06 AM
 
sanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ashland, Oregon
Posts: 146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For me the truth is that the people whom I've met and developed freindships with over the years who are Waldorf educators have been consistantly some of the nicest, sincerest, loving, deepest people I have known! They have been loving with my children (my children likewise love them), and they have been deeply dedicated to children. Their life is their path.

I am not going to buy that these people are lying when they say that what you all profess to be true is not their truth. Nor that they are lying when they say that they were not taught about the bullying/karma 'thing', nor the race theory, etc... I believe them, they are sincere honest people, and I am happy to know them.

I am done with this topic.

Blessings
sanna is offline  
#126 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 11:37 AM
 
Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Just moved to Framingham, MA
Posts: 1,547
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sanna,

I'm sure they are lovely people.

Are you not confusing the people with the system?

a

The anti-Ezzo king
Alexander is offline  
#127 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 12:16 PM
 
sanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ashland, Oregon
Posts: 146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Alexander,

No
sanna is offline  
#128 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 12:22 PM
 
Britishmum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 4,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sanna, I'm sure that the individuals that you know are wonderful.

However, if a system is built upon the teachings of a man who made some incredibly racist statements - which are there for everyone to read, then they must know about them.

That doesn't mean that they believe them, or follow them in theory, but they have to know about them. If they truly don't, then their training has to have been at fault. Steiner made those statements, so Waldorf training, if it is to be respected, should have to address the issue - either by supporting it, putting in in 'context' (although to me, no 'context' is acceptable) or rejecting it.

Issues of race and equal opportunities are addressed in depth on any teacher training course that I have known. I can't believe that they are not addressed in some way in Waldorf training - and it logically follows that Steiner's teaching would be at the forefront of training for a Steiner teacher.

Maybe your friends reject what he said, which is great, but they must know about it, surely? Or their training was sadly lacking, in my opinion.
Britishmum is offline  
#129 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 12:34 PM
 
momof2teens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Debra:

Sorry guys, this is my first message board experience. I thought I was typing away and I must have hit something and Zap! My unfinished mesage was gone! I'll finish my parable before going home:
***

My anger is long gone. PLANS is a service organization. We have many researchers who just love doing their jobs! Some of them are now studying Steiner's gurus! Finding out just where he really got his information. Some of us doubted that he really could have read the akashic record. Remember in 'The Wizard of Oz' when Toto, the dog, pulled back the curtain, revealing THE real Wizard? All the while THE wizard kept saying, "Ignore the man behind the curtain?" Well, you can think of PLANS like Toto. We're pulling open the esoteric curtain in Waldorf. We believe in truth in advertizing, and I'm certain most of you here can appreciate that.

Thanks for listening. Drop by and say 'hi' sometime. Our parking lot address is: http://www.waldorfcritics.org

Best of luck to all of us,
Debra
momof2teens is offline  
#130 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 01:05 PM
 
momofgurlz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Mid-Atlantic region
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hello again, all!

I truly am sorry that this thread/topic has generated some hurt feelings; it was never my intention to personally insult anyone, and I sure hope I didn't! As I have said before, I remain very impressed with both with the fact that Mothering's moderators have allowed such free discourse to go on and with the fact that so many here have been willing to engage in it!

Sometime back, I mentioned that another former Waldorf parent and I composed a list of questions that we wished we had known enough to ask at the Waldorf schools we were considering for our children. The list is by no means complete -- there are many other more probing inquiries one could make -- but they scratch the surface enough that their answers are worth getting. I also contend that one can learn quite a bit about Waldorf just by reading the questions!

Here goes! (Note that some are questions, and some are suggestions as to things to do, ask for, etc.)


* Ask to see mainlesson books from several elementary school grades, and from several children within the same class (on the same subject.) This way, it will become obvious that if the mainlesson books are almost identical (which they often are!), that the children are merely copying whatever the teacher
writes or draws from the blackboard.

* Make sure to read the PLANS web site at www.waldorfcritics.org and all it contains. Pay particular attention to the articles.

* Do you believe in reincarnation? Does you want your child taught by a
system that is based -- pedagogically, as well as spiritually -- on a belief
in reincarnation?

* Do you understand Steiner's 7-year cycles of child development (in which
children below the age of 14 are not allowed to think abstractly -- even if
they do so naturally?) Children below the age of 14, according to Steiner,
should not form independent thoughts or theories, but should instead learn
to trust the authority of the teacher and to think as he/she thinks.

* Do you believe that ALL technology is bad for kids? Sure, we all think
kids watch too much garbage on TV, and little kids shouldn't spend their
time staring at computers.
But if you ask, Waldorf teachers will tell you that computers are not
good for children because children cannot understand how computers work.
They will tell you that in the Waldorf high school, the students are then
old enough to learn to build a computer and to use one.
What they do NOT tell you is that they believe that the computer is
``AHRIMANIC’’ -- connected with the Anthroposophic ``god of darkness’’ --
and can sap the child’s will and actually ``suck out the child’s soul.’’ Ask the teacher about Ahriman.

* Do you want your child to be strongly influenced by the same adult for
eight years? Do you understand that if your child develops a dislike for the
teacher, or if you find the teacher is not to your liking or approval, Steiner says that being with that teacher is the child's karma? Do you understand that if the teacher and child do not get on, your child will be referred to curative eurythmy (at an extra cost to you, often!) to work the situation out, and no, the child can't change teachers because the karma has to be worked out with the first teacher? (And besides, at most Waldorf schools, there is only one class for each grade.)

* Do you know that the creation story your child will learn isn't even in
the same ballpark with the creationist one of the Christian fundamentalists,
despite the school saying it's "Christian-something-or-other"? Are you aware
that they will be taught that the creators of the world/universe are 11 or
12 spirits, a pantheistic "Elohim," and not a monotheistic "God?"

* Do you know that -- eventually -- your child will be taught some science
that is NOT the accepted science of the 21st century? Students in Waldorf
schools learn Steiner science -- which flies in the face of facts proven
again and again by numerous other famous scientists and thinkers, including
Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton.
At a Waldorf school, children learn, for instance that color comes from
the clash of darkness with light (a erroneous idea of Steiner’s based on
Goethe.) Are you aware that the foundation of this Steiner science is occult
spiritualism, not real science?
At Waldorf, students studying chemistry are taught that the four
elements are: earth, air, fire and water, which they learn correspond with
various signs of the Zodiac.
They also learn that the human race first occupied Atlantis, which was destroyed by a flood.

* Do you understand that Steiner's curriculum hasn't changed in more than75 years, doesn't take account of the earlier maturation of kids and that it's almost all based on spiritual science premises that Steiner made up ?

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of the curriculum, for all the grades at the school. It should be as detailed as your state's curriculum. Even if it's legallyallowably different, it should show the same rigor and depth. Ask specifically to see details of subjects called "zoology" and "botany," which often are comprised of Steiner science, and not accepted science.

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of how
Anthroposophy fits into the curriculum, and what things in the
curriculum -- such as late reading, no black crayons in the early years, no
stimulation of the intellect until post-puberty, Goethean science, etc. --
are based on Anthroposophy or spiritual science. Ask if there is any
modern educational research to back Steiner's specific educational theories
up. (There isn't.)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of
Steiner's child development model, in plain language, and for modern
scientific educational research to back this up. (There isn't any.) Ask for
an explanation of "The Four Temperments" and how each temperment relates to physical characteristics ("melancholic" children are usually tall and pale;
"cholerics" have a square jaw, etc.) Ask what modern research supports the
use of this "tool" that dates from before the Middle Ages. (There isn't
any.)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ policy statement on
parent/school relationships, and the school’s contractual agreement on
it: for instance, what happens if a parent or parents disagree with
something the school or teacher or curriculum does, and wants it changed or
wants his child not to partake in it? If you withdraw your child before the
end of the year, will you have to continue to pay tuition? (Check into
tuition insurance.)

* Ask for a _written_ statement regarding the use of Anthroposophical "child
studies" (or any other type of assessment of the child), requiring that it
divulge if speculation on the child's former life or lives is included,
either privately or formally; requiring that there be an agreed-to,
complete, written record of any assessments; requiring that parents have
the right to be present during such sessions, whether they involve the child
or not.

That's it for the list made by my acquaintance. I would add a few more
items, including:

* Ask for a faculty list that contains information about the credentials and
degrees obtained by each teacher. Pay attention to the wording of the
listings (if, indeed, there is such a list -- not all schools have them!) A
statement that a teacher "attended" a particular university or college does
not mean the teacher earned a degree. Carefully check out what the Waldorf
school teacher training programs involve -- which is mostly study of Steiner
and Anthroposophy.

* Are you aware that your child will be taught that fairies and gnomes
actually exist, and that many of the teachers (at least those who are
Anthroposophists) believe that these elemental beings are real, and even
more, are very important?
A good way to approach this topic without offending the teacher is to ask him or her to explain the importance of the "elemental beings."

* Are you aware that the famous Waldorf 'wet-on-wet" watercolor painting is
actually a spiritual science exercise, aimed at cultivating the child's
soul/spirit? Are you aware that the amorphous quality of the images created
by this wet technique is intended to frustrate the child's ability to draw
with LINES -- which Steiner purported were remnants of "past lives" and thus
should be done away with (except in form drawing, another spiritual science
exercise)?


-- Lisa Ercolano
momofgurlz is offline  
#131 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 01:21 PM
 
momof2teens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sanna, I'm sure that the individuals that you know are wonderful.
Britishmum wrote:

However, if a system is built upon the teachings of a man who made some incredibly racist statements - which are there for everyone to read, then they must know about them.


Debra:

This is it. PLANS has yet to meet anyone within the Waldorf movement who is willing repudiate anything Steiner said. The Waldorf teacher training program is riddled with racist remarks, sometimes crazy and always outdated theories on child development.

Britmum:

That doesn't mean that they believe them, or follow them in theory, but they have to know about them. If they truly don't, then their training has to have been at fault. Steiner made those statements, so Waldorf training, if it is to be respected, should have to address the issue - either by supporting it, putting in in 'context' (although to me, no 'context' is acceptable) or rejecting it.

Debra:

Exactly!

Britmum:

Issues of race and equal opportunities are addressed in depth on any teacher training course that I have known. I can't believe that they are not addressed in some way in Waldorf training - and it logically follows that Steiner's teaching would be at the forefront of training for a Steiner teacher.

Debra:

If you read the Waldorf teacher training required book list, the training program is centered solely on Steiner. All the books were either written by him or about him, by devotees. Waldorf hasn't changed since Steiner died! Education, by it's very definition should be fluid, don't you think?

Waldorf teachers are anything but fluid. They become 'Steiner Definers'. It is a rare Waldorf teacher who ventures off on any other technique. Why? Because Anthroposophy is a religion and they would be looked down on by other teachers in the school.

I was on the board of directors of a private Waldorf school and a founder of a public funded Waldorf school. The air in Waldorf meetings is very thick, and Steiner comes to them all. Who ever can present Steiner's opinion in the most convincing way, wins.

Britmum:

Maybe your friends reject what he said, which is great, but they must know about it, surely? Or their training was sadly lacking, in my opinion.


Debra:

It is presented as truth in their training. Some may not question it. The training program is a vertual seminary for Anthroposophy. It would be very hard to be the only one questioning something that everyone else in the room is just lapping up. I'd love to know what the drop out rate is in Waldorf teacher training programs.
momof2teens is offline  
#132 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 01:43 PM
 
momofgurlz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Mid-Atlantic region
Posts: 49
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have to second what my friends Debra and Diana said about Waldorf teachers definitely knowing not only what Steiner said -- which is the absolute foundation of everything they do daily in a Waldorf school -- but also the controversy surrounding some of it.

It would be impossible for a person to get through the Waldorf training course and NOT discuss Steiner's theories/position on the races of humankind for many reasons, the chiefest of which is that the teachers are required to understand where, according to Anthroposophy, each child is in his or her "journey" through spiritual evolution! Waldorf teacher trainees make a close study of Steiner's evolutionary model, which includes his theory that people began as "root races." They also learn about the various "destinies" of certain groups of people, including Jewish people, who Steiner believed and taught had already "outlived their usefulness" on Earth. ("Natural Jewish Parenting" magazine did a story on Waldorf, and concluded that it probably is not a good place for Jewish children, despite the good aspects.)

Does that mean that every Waldorf teacher believes Steiner was right? I don't think so, and I hope not. However, for a teacher to say that he or she has never heard about Steiner's theory or the controversy surrounding it defies credulity!

One former Waldorf parent I know was troubled by some of Steiner's writings on the races, and decided to take his worries to a master teacher at his child's school. (This person's little girl was in the kindergarten at the time, and the husband and wife were trying to decide whether she should go on to first grade at the same school or move to a different, non-Waldorf school the following year.) The man asked the teacher, who by the way was a most pleasant individual, about Steiner's theory of the races.

Her answer? That yes, there certainly *is* a controversy surrounding Steiner's teachings on the races, but that is only because people have not "understood" what Steiner "really was saying." "Some of Steiner is difficult," she told him. "Unless you study anthrop., it is hard to understand."

The man went away very, very discouraged. Why? This is the same answer that many, many people are given when they take their concerns about Steiner's racist writings to the teachers they know and have up until then trusted! Had the teachers said "Oh yes, Steiner certainly said some very racists and troubling things; he was a man of his times in many ways. Please be assured that we in no way agree with him on this!" it would be quite different. But so far, I know of NO Waldorf teachers who have said this. Instead, they tell US that WE don't understand because we have not been initiated into anthroposophy. It is very troubling, to say the least. If the teachers don't subscribe to these views, why not say so? And if they are not willing to say so, what choice do we have but to conclude that they Do subscribe to those views?

It also is worth noting that Waldorf schools can be very hostile places to teachers who do NOT follow Steiner. Two former teachers I know told me how badly they were treated at their former schools simply because they were not students of Steiner and often spoke up, saying they disagreed with conclusions drawn about various students based on speculation as to their karma, past lives, etc.

That said, I don't dispute that there are many, many nice people at Waldorf schools. During our six years at our former school, we made lots of good friends. No question about it.

But it is hard to forgive even "nice" people who deliberately withhold information from parents simply because they believe that they are on a spiritual mission with a superior purpose. That's not nice, not nice at all.

Lisa
momofgurlz is offline  
#133 of 163 Old 04-11-2002, 04:01 PM
 
Winters_Diana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sanna wrote:

I am not going to buy that these people are lying when they say that what you all profess to be true is not their truth

*************************
Well, it is fudging things a little to start talking about "our truth" versus "their truth." I don't believe in that sort of truth. The man either said what he said, or he didn't. Read Steiner and find out.

I don't think every Waldorf teacher in the world knows about Steiner's racism (not to mention the reams of other nonsense in Steiner; he believed, for instance, that Atlantis actually existed, and the people there had little flying chariots; and he blieved that some day humans wil live on a planet called Vulcan and then we will not reproduce sexually any more but via the larynx).

It's true that some Waldorf teachers know nothing of any of this and are like many parents - just wanting a natural, holistic approach, avoiding TV, etc. And I agree with Sanna that many Waldorf teachers are lovely sincere people.

However - and it's a big however - it is usually very committed, zealous anthroposophists who are running Waldorf schools, and there is a constant push for anthroposophic purity. These folks are on a mission.

*These* folks read and discuss Steiner in every spare moment. They have no life outside the anthro. community around the school. They mean well. They believe they are saving humanity, like any cult they believe *their* guy showed humanity the way forward etc. They can't dispute a word the guru said. As a result, they lie when backed into a corner, and say they simply haven't heard about these subjects.

I don't really like to say, sight unseen, than an individual I have never met is lying. But it is just not likely that someone who has spent many years of their life studying Steiner, whose life's "path" is Steiner, has never even *heard* of these topics?! They are fundamental to his world view.

Fanaticism alert - deception is the only course when the guru cannot be contradicted, even decades after he is dead.

Incidentally, someone asked why I say it is a big controversy - just because the PLANS group says so? Actually in the US PLANS is the whole show, but the controversy is much bigger in Europe, where a number of larger groups actively oppose anthroposophy.
Diana
Winters_Diana is offline  
#134 of 163 Old 04-12-2002, 11:28 AM
 
Isis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just like any group with an agenda, PLANS/Waldorf critics will produce half-truths, twist ideas and use provocative words the lead the reader to assume more than what is said. Being "sweet" faigning innocence, saying they are providing a "service" etc. These folks have something to sell just as much as Anthropods do.

Once again I will reiterate that I am not an anthroposophist.

(I am putting my comments in parentheses. isis)

Lisa:
Hello again, all!

I truly am sorry that this thread/topic has generated some hurt feelings;

( isis: are you really? or is this just bad PR?)

it was never my intention to personally insult anyone, and I sure hope I didn't! As I have said before, I remain very impressed with both with the fact that Mothering's moderators have allowed such free discourse to go on and with the fact that so many here have been willing to engage in it!

(isis: bootlicking?)

Sometime back, I mentioned that another former Waldorf parent and I composed a list of questions that we wished we had known enough to ask at the Waldorf schools...

Here goes! (Note that some are questions, and some are suggestions as to things to do, ask for, etc.)


* Ask to see mainlesson books from several elementary school grades, and from several children within the same class (on the same subject.) This way, it will become obvious that if the mainlesson books are almost identical (which they often are!), that the children are merely copying whatever the teacher
writes or draws from the blackboard.

(isis: in Waldorf schools, children create their own textbooks. If they were merely reading textbooks and copying questions, like other schools, would these textbooks not be even more identical?)

* Make sure to read the PLANS web site at www.waldorfcritics.org and all it contains. Pay particular attention to the articles.

(isis: nice plug for PLANS)

* Do you believe in reincarnation? Does you want your child taught by a
system that is based -- pedagogically, as well as spiritually -- on a belief
in reincarnation?

(isis: are children taught reincarnation in Waldorf schools? NO. Are children taught Anthroposophy NO.)

* Do you understand Steiner's 7-year cycles of child development (in which
children below the age of 14 are not allowed to think abstractly

(isis: not "allowed" to think abstractly? What a goofy word to use. Do they insert wires into the brain or what? Come on.)

-- even if
they do so naturally?) Children below the age of 14, according to Steiner,
should not form independent thoughts or theories, but should instead learn
to trust the authority of the teacher and to think as he/she thinks.

* Do you believe that ALL technology is bad for kids? Sure, we all think
kids watch too much garbage on TV, and little kids shouldn't spend their
time staring at computers.
But if you ask, Waldorf teachers will tell you that computers are not
good for children because children cannot understand how computers work.
They will tell you that in the Waldorf high school, the students are then
old enough to learn to build a computer and to use one.
What they do NOT tell you is that they believe that the computer is
``AHRIMANIC’’ -- connected with the Anthroposophic ``god of darkness’’ --

(isis: maybe the PLANS website is the headquarters for this darkness. snicker.)

and can sap the child’s will and actually ``suck out the child’s soul.’’ Ask the teacher about Ahriman.

* Do you want your child to be strongly influenced by the same adult for
eight years? Do you understand that if your child develops a dislike for the
teacher, or if you find the teacher is not to your liking or approval, Steiner says that being with that teacher is the child's karma?

(isis: what happens to us is and also what we choose to do would be our karma. If you choose to leave the school, that also would be karma. The idea would be to strive to create good karma. This idea is not so wacky.)

Do you understand that if the teacher and child do not get on, your child will be referred to curative eurythmy (at an extra cost to you, often!) to work the situation out,

(isis: meanwhile the class teacher will be working hard on what within him/herself is contributing to the conflict or impasse. This would be the time for a child study, so the teacher could get a more realistic view of the child in question and to separate for his/her emotional turmoil)

and no, the child can't change teachers because the karma has to be worked out with the first teacher? (And besides, at most Waldorf schools, there is only one class for each grade.)

(isis: how can you change teachers if there is only one? Also, I have known several cases of K children changing classes, so it is not unheard of.)

* Do you know that the creation story your child will learn isn't even in
the same ballpark with the creationist one of the Christian fundamentalists,
despite the school saying it's "Christian-something-or-other"? Are you aware
that they will be taught that the creators of the world/universe are 11 or
12 spirits, a pantheistic "Elohim," and not a monotheistic "God?"

(isis: if you are concerned, study the bible better. Modern versions have simplified it. The word we have translated into "God" *is* plural. This is not a Steinerism.)

* Do you know that -- eventually -- your child will be taught some science
that is NOT the accepted science of the 21st century? Students in Waldorf
schools learn Steiner science -- which flies in the face of facts proven
again and again by numerous other famous scientists and thinkers, including
Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton.
At a Waldorf school, children learn, for instance that color comes from
the clash of darkness with light (a erroneous idea of Steiner’s based on
Goethe.)

(isis: prove that it isn't.)

Are you aware that the foundation of this Steiner science is occult
spiritualism, not real science?
At Waldorf, students studying chemistry are taught that the four
elements are: earth, air, fire and water, which they learn correspond with
various signs of the Zodiac.

(isis: were you assuming from this that they are not taught the periodic tables? They are!)

They also learn that the human race first occupied Atlantis, which was destroyed by a flood.

(isis: have not heard this. Goofy but harmless, I have not heard of this being taught to Waldorf students!)

* Do you understand that Steiner's curriculum hasn't changed in more than75 years, doesn't take account of the earlier maturation of kids and that it's almost all based on spiritual science premises that Steiner made up ?

(isis: fair point. How much has Montessori changed? Just as a comparison...)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of the curriculum, for all the grades at the school. It should be as detailed as your state's curriculum. Even if it's legallyallowably different, it should show the same rigor and depth. Ask specifically to see details of subjects called "zoology" and "botany," which often are comprised of Steiner science, and not accepted science.

(isis: fair enough)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of how
Anthroposophy fits into the curriculum, and what things in the
curriculum -- such as late reading, no black crayons in the early years, no
stimulation of the intellect

(isis: are you saying they are not learning? I beg to differ!)

until post-puberty, Goethean science, etc. --
are based on Anthroposophy or spiritual science.

(isis: Inovators of educational movements can certainly base their methods on what they believe! I question the value of pouring beans into a bottle over and over again (Montessori) What kind of belief started that? Let methods be methods.)

Ask if there is any
modern educational research to back Steiner's specific educational theories
up. (There isn't.)

(isis: You or PLANS/Waldorfcritics would not be the ones to ask, now would you? To paraphrase alexander, you would not be the ones to trumpet the cause.)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of
Steiner's child development model, in plain language, and for modern
scientific educational research to back this up. (There isn't any.) Ask for
an explanation of "The Four Temperments" and how each temperment relates to physical characteristics ("melancholic" children are usually tall and pale;
"cholerics" have a square jaw, etc.) Ask what modern research supports the
use of this "tool" that dates from before the Middle Ages. (There isn't
any.)

(isis: Why ask if it isn't there? Why not just read RS if you are so interested? The books are available in Waldorf school bookstores. This is no secret!)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ policy statement on
parent/school relationships, and the school’s contractual agreement on
it: for instance, what happens if a parent or parents disagree with
something the school or teacher or curriculum does, and wants it changed or
wants his child not to partake in it? If you withdraw your child before the
end of the year, will you have to continue to pay tuition? (Check into
tuition insurance.)

(isis: very fair)

* Ask for a _written_ statement regarding the use of Anthroposophical "child
studies" (or any other type of assessment of the child), requiring that it
divulge if speculation on the child's former life or lives is included,
either privately or formally; requiring that there be an agreed-to,
complete, written record of any assessments; requiring that parents have
the right to be present during such sessions, whether they involve the child
or not.

(isis: assesments that involve only faculty members do not by defenition include parents- parent/teacher conferences are for this purpose. Child studies are done to encourage teachers to be exercising their senses and intellect when regarding children. So they can realy *see* children and thereby know them and teach them better. It is not a child-evaluation)

That's it for the list made by my acquaintance. I would add a few more
items, including:

* Ask for a faculty list that contains information about the credentials and
degrees obtained by each teacher. Pay attention to the wording of the
listings (if, indeed, there is such a list -- not all schools have them!) A
statement that a teacher "attended" a particular university or college does
not mean the teacher earned a degree. Carefully check out what the Waldorf
school teacher training programs involve -- which is mostly study of Steiner
and Anthroposophy.

(isis: it is not necessary that all teachers be college graduates or have teaching certificates. Many, many outside the Waldorf movement agree that a degree isn't the only or the best way of determining who is a good teacher. But if this point is important to you, fair enough go ahead and ask.)

* Are you aware that your child will be taught that fairies and gnomes
actually exist-

(isis: excuse me, most children believe in fairies and gnomes and are not taught in this regard. Fairies may be in the woods in the same way Santa comes down the chimmney. How subversive!)

and that many of the teachers (at least those who are
Anthroposophists) believe that these elemental beings are real, and even
more, are very important?

(isis: what's wrong with this? Can you prove that fairies don't exist?)

A good way to approach this topic without offending the teacher is to ask him or her to explain the importance of the "elemental beings."

* Are you aware that the famous Waldorf 'wet-on-wet" watercolor painting is
actually a spiritual science exercise, aimed at cultivating the child's
soul/spirit?

(isis: Oh my!! And there is no benefit whatsoever in young children painting and exploring colors. It should be BANNED! BTW who wouldn't benefit from cultivating soul?)

Are you aware that the amorphous quality of the images created
by this wet technique is intended to frustrate the child's ability to draw
with LINES

(isis: I can tell you Waldorf kindergartens/schools are not about frustrating children. LOL! In the same way that some things are seen as more "adult" than others- say high heeled shoes- Steiner educators believe that with young children, the line can wait. When a child asks for a pen in a Waldorf kindergarten, for the teacher it is like she is asking for stiletto heels)

-- which Steiner purported were remnants of "past lives" and thus
should be done away with (except in form drawing, another spiritual science
exercise)?


-- Lisa Ercolano [/B][/QUOTE]

I suggest you all stick with the root race theory as your main point of criticism.

isis
Isis is offline  
#135 of 163 Old 04-12-2002, 12:03 PM
 
momof2teens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
(I am putting my comments in parentheses. isis)

Lisa:
Hello again, all!

I truly am sorry that this thread/topic has generated some hurt feelings;

( isis: are you really? or is this just bad PR?)

it was never my intention to personally insult anyone, and I sure hope I didn't! As I have said before, I remain very impressed with both with the fact that Mothering's moderators have allowed such free discourse to go on and with the fact that so many here have been willing to engage in it!

(isis: bootlicking?)

Sometime back, I mentioned that another former Waldorf parent and I composed a list of questions that we wished we had known enough to ask at the Waldorf schools...

Here goes! (Note that some are questions, and some are suggestions as to things to do, ask for, etc.)


* Ask to see mainlesson books from several elementary school grades, and from several children within the same class (on the same subject.) This way, it will become obvious that if the mainlesson books are almost identical (which they often are!), that the children are merely copying whatever the teacher
writes or draws from the blackboard.

(isis: in Waldorf schools, children create their own textbooks. If they were merely reading textbooks and copying questions, like other schools, would these textbooks not be even more identical?)

* Make sure to read the PLANS web site at www.waldorfcritics.org and all it contains. Pay particular attention to the articles.

(isis: nice plug for PLANS)

* Do you believe in reincarnation? Does you want your child taught by a
system that is based -- pedagogically, as well as spiritually -- on a belief
in reincarnation?

(isis: are children taught reincarnation in Waldorf schools? NO. Are children taught Anthroposophy NO.)

* Do you understand Steiner's 7-year cycles of child development (in which
children below the age of 14 are not allowed to think abstractly

(isis: not "allowed" to think abstractly? What a goofy word to use. Do they insert wires into the brain or what? Come on.)

-- even if
they do so naturally?) Children below the age of 14, according to Steiner,
should not form independent thoughts or theories, but should instead learn
to trust the authority of the teacher and to think as he/she thinks.

* Do you believe that ALL technology is bad for kids? Sure, we all think
kids watch too much garbage on TV, and little kids shouldn't spend their
time staring at computers.
But if you ask, Waldorf teachers will tell you that computers are not
good for children because children cannot understand how computers work.
They will tell you that in the Waldorf high school, the students are then
old enough to learn to build a computer and to use one.
What they do NOT tell you is that they believe that the computer is
``AHRIMANIC’’ -- connected with the Anthroposophic ``god of darkness’’ --

(isis: maybe the PLANS website is the headquarters for this darkness. snicker.)

and can sap the child’s will and actually ``suck out the child’s soul.’’ Ask the teacher about Ahriman.

* Do you want your child to be strongly influenced by the same adult for
eight years? Do you understand that if your child develops a dislike for the
teacher, or if you find the teacher is not to your liking or approval, Steiner says that being with that teacher is the child's karma?

(isis: what happens to us is and also what we choose to do would be our karma. If you choose to leave the school, that also would be karma. The idea would be to strive to create good karma. This idea is not so wacky.)

Do you understand that if the teacher and child do not get on, your child will be referred to curative eurythmy (at an extra cost to you, often!) to work the situation out,

(isis: meanwhile the class teacher will be working hard on what within him/herself is contributing to the conflict or impasse. This would be the time for a child study, so the teacher could get a more realistic view of the child in question and to separate for his/her emotional turmoil)

and no, the child can't change teachers because the karma has to be worked out with the first teacher? (And besides, at most Waldorf schools, there is only one class for each grade.)

(isis: how can you change teachers if there is only one? Also, I have known several cases of K children changing classes, so it is not unheard of.)

* Do you know that the creation story your child will learn isn't even in
the same ballpark with the creationist one of the Christian fundamentalists,
despite the school saying it's "Christian-something-or-other"? Are you aware
that they will be taught that the creators of the world/universe are 11 or
12 spirits, a pantheistic "Elohim," and not a monotheistic "God?"

(isis: if you are concerned, study the bible better. Modern versions have simplified it. The word we have translated into "God" *is* plural. This is not a Steinerism.)

* Do you know that -- eventually -- your child will be taught some science
that is NOT the accepted science of the 21st century? Students in Waldorf
schools learn Steiner science -- which flies in the face of facts proven
again and again by numerous other famous scientists and thinkers, including
Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton.
At a Waldorf school, children learn, for instance that color comes from
the clash of darkness with light (a erroneous idea of Steiner’s based on
Goethe.)

(isis: prove that it isn't.)

Are you aware that the foundation of this Steiner science is occult
spiritualism, not real science?
At Waldorf, students studying chemistry are taught that the four
elements are: earth, air, fire and water, which they learn correspond with
various signs of the Zodiac.

(isis: were you assuming from this that they are not taught the periodic tables? They are!)

They also learn that the human race first occupied Atlantis, which was destroyed by a flood.

(isis: have not heard this. Goofy but harmless, I have not heard of this being taught to Waldorf students!)

* Do you understand that Steiner's curriculum hasn't changed in more than75 years, doesn't take account of the earlier maturation of kids and that it's almost all based on spiritual science premises that Steiner made up ?

(isis: fair point. How much has Montessori changed? Just as a comparison...)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of the curriculum, for all the grades at the school. It should be as detailed as your state's curriculum. Even if it's legallyallowably different, it should show the same rigor and depth. Ask specifically to see details of subjects called "zoology" and "botany," which often are comprised of Steiner science, and not accepted science.

(isis: fair enough)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of how
Anthroposophy fits into the curriculum, and what things in the
curriculum -- such as late reading, no black crayons in the early years, no
stimulation of the intellect

(isis: are you saying they are not learning? I beg to differ!)

until post-puberty, Goethean science, etc. --
are based on Anthroposophy or spiritual science.

(isis: Inovators of educational movements can certainly base their methods on what they believe! I question the value of pouring beans into a bottle over and over again (Montessori) What kind of belief started that? Let methods be methods.)

Ask if there is any
modern educational research to back Steiner's specific educational theories
up. (There isn't.)

(isis: You or PLANS/Waldorfcritics would not be the ones to ask, now would you? To paraphrase alexander, you would not be the ones to trumpet the cause.)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of
Steiner's child development model, in plain language, and for modern
scientific educational research to back this up. (There isn't any.) Ask for
an explanation of "The Four Temperments" and how each temperment relates to physical characteristics ("melancholic" children are usually tall and pale;
"cholerics" have a square jaw, etc.) Ask what modern research supports the
use of this "tool" that dates from before the Middle Ages. (There isn't
any.)

(isis: Why ask if it isn't there? Why not just read RS if you are so interested? The books are available in Waldorf school bookstores. This is no secret!)

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ policy statement on
parent/school relationships, and the school’s contractual agreement on
it: for instance, what happens if a parent or parents disagree with
something the school or teacher or curriculum does, and wants it changed or
wants his child not to partake in it? If you withdraw your child before the
end of the year, will you have to continue to pay tuition? (Check into
tuition insurance.)

(isis: very fair)

* Ask for a _written_ statement regarding the use of Anthroposophical "child
studies" (or any other type of assessment of the child), requiring that it
divulge if speculation on the child's former life or lives is included,
either privately or formally; requiring that there be an agreed-to,
complete, written record of any assessments; requiring that parents have
the right to be present during such sessions, whether they involve the child
or not.

(isis: assesments that involve only faculty members do not by defenition include parents- parent/teacher conferences are for this purpose. Child studies are done to encourage teachers to be exercising their senses and intellect when regarding children. So they can realy *see* children and thereby know them and teach them better. It is not a child-evaluation)

That's it for the list made by my acquaintance. I would add a few more
items, including:

* Ask for a faculty list that contains information about the credentials and
degrees obtained by each teacher. Pay attention to the wording of the
listings (if, indeed, there is such a list -- not all schools have them!) A
statement that a teacher "attended" a particular university or college does
not mean the teacher earned a degree. Carefully check out what the Waldorf
school teacher training programs involve -- which is mostly study of Steiner
and Anthroposophy.

(isis: it is not necessary that all teachers be college graduates or have teaching certificates. Many, many outside the Waldorf movement agree that a degree isn't the only or the best way of determining who is a good teacher. But if this point is important to you, fair enough go ahead and ask.)

* Are you aware that your child will be taught that fairies and gnomes
actually exist-

(isis: excuse me, most children believe in fairies and gnomes and are not taught in this regard. Fairies may be in the woods in the same way Santa comes down the chimmney. How subversive!)

and that many of the teachers (at least those who are
Anthroposophists) believe that these elemental beings are real, and even
more, are very important?

(isis: what's wrong with this? Can you prove that fairies don't exist?)

A good way to approach this topic without offending the teacher is to ask him or her to explain the importance of the "elemental beings."

* Are you aware that the famous Waldorf 'wet-on-wet" watercolor painting is
actually a spiritual science exercise, aimed at cultivating the child's
soul/spirit?

(isis: Oh my!! And there is no benefit whatsoever in young children painting and exploring colors. It should be BANNED! BTW who wouldn't benefit from cultivating soul?)

Are you aware that the amorphous quality of the images created
by this wet technique is intended to frustrate the child's ability to draw
with LINES

(isis: I can tell you Waldorf kindergartens/schools are not about frustrating children. LOL! In the same way that some things are seen as more "adult" than others- say high heeled shoes- Steiner educators believe that with young children, the line can wait. When a child asks for a pen in a Waldorf kindergarten, for the teacher it is like she is asking for stiletto heels)

-- which Steiner purported were remnants of "past lives" and thus
should be done away with (except in form drawing, another spiritual science
exercise)?


-- Lisa Ercolano [/B][/QUOTE]

I suggest you all stick with the root race theory as your main point of criticism.

isis [/B][/QUOTE]
momof2teens is offline  
#136 of 163 Old 04-13-2002, 01:20 PM
 
sanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ashland, Oregon
Posts: 146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't you all have anything better to do with your time than deconstruct Waldorf? Like, take care of your children? Or are they all in school?

Speaking of school. I am curious what sort of schooling your kids now go to? I starting a thread on one's 'ideal' school, I'd love to hear what you all think that may be!

Instead of tearing apart one educational method, don't you think that that energy could be put into creating another one that suits your 'ideals'?

Blessings

PS: Do you realise that all school systems are founded on some forms of philosophy, spiritual reasonings, ideals, etc.. ?

Even the public school system is founded on ideas formulated during the time of Aristotle, etc..
sanna is offline  
#137 of 163 Old 04-13-2002, 02:58 PM
 
heartlight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Eatonville, WA
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Although I never cared to "discuss" Waldorf education with the critics from PLANS (if I wanted to, I would post on their website), I would like to add my final thoughts to this thread for those who may still be open-minded.

As for the alleged racism issue, please consider this. Racism is illegal in the Netherlands. Therefore, when allegations of racism in arose in connection with Anthroposophy, an official investigation ensued. The Commission on Anthroposophy and the Question of Race issued its final report on April 1, 2000. It concluded, "the work of Rudolf Steiner (1861 - 1925) contains neither racial doctrine nor statements made for the purpose of insulting persons or groups of people because of their race, and which could therefore be called racist. In the opinion of the Commission, the collected works of Rudolf Steiner do contain a number of statements that, *by today's standards,* are of a discriminatory nature or could be experienced as discriminatory." (Emphasis mine.) I found this information on the PLANS website.

While some may think there is no difference between discriminatory statements and racism, I think there is an important difference -- it is one of intent. From all of the discussion of this issue that I have read, even the critics admit that Steiner did not espouse hatred. Although he said some things that, when taken alone, sound very offensive by our current standards, he was not trying to say that one race is superior to another. (To him, I do not think that the intellect was superior to other aspects of the human being.) Here is a well-known quote of his which better reflects his thinking and the body of his work: "[I]n its fundamental nature, the anthroposophical movement . . . must cast aside the division into races. It must seek to unite people of all races and nations, and to bridge the divisions and differences between various groups of people. The old point of view of race has a physical character, but what will prevail in the future will have a more spiritual character."

Also, compare how the PLANS critics condemn Rudolf Steiner (based on some statements he made) to their respect for Thomas Jefferson (he appears on their home page with quotations). Jefferson owned slaves. Was he a racist? Should we disregard all of his ideas? Let's be consistent. I have not encountered anyone who knows of or alleges any systemic racism occurring in Waldorf schools.

Enough about the racism issue. As for Diana's comment that the concerns raised in this thread would not be answered on the SJU list (http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/waldorf.html), I disagree. I have seen many of the issues raised on this thread discussed there. If one is sincere in the asking, many uncomfortable issues can be addressed. The discussion will certainly not be of the ugly character of that on the PLANS site, however. It is not a place for verbal attacks.

My dd's preschool teacher is not at all the way Diana describes the three kindergartens she worked in. Dd's teacher is warm, makes eye contact, answers questions and intervenes at the first sign of any unkind behavior. And she probably does meditate on the children each night as well. The teachers I observed at dd's kindergarten are the same way, and people I know in the teacher training program are the same way too! I have read many books on Waldorf early childhood education and they advocate warmth (physical and emotional) above all else. All have been very open about Anthroposophy and they facilitate study groups and parent evenings to read and discuss the philosophies. To condemn all Waldorf teachers and schools as being equal to the worst examples one can find is unfair.

As for Lisa's list of questions, my comments follow:

* Ask to see mainlesson books from several elementary school grades, and from several children within the same class (on the same subject).

heartlight: I have no problem with children in the early grades learning by copying from the teacher. I understand that by fourth grade the work should become more individual.

* Make sure to read the PLANS web site at www.waldorfcritics.org and all it contains.

hearthlight: I read it when I can stomach it.

* Do you believe in reincarnation? Does [sic] you want your child taught by a system that is based -- pedagogically, as well as spiritually -- on a belief in reincarnation?

heartlight: I don't see the harm in this, nor do I see where reincarnation is taught.

* Do you understand Steiner's 7-year cycles of child development (in which children below the age of 14 are not allowed to think abstractly -- even if they do so naturally)?

heartlight: I understand that in Steiner's theory of child development that children should not be encouraged to develop critical thinking too early. I agree. I do not believe anyone can or ties to prohibit how anyone else thinks.

* Do you believe that ALL technology is bad for kids?

heartlight: Pretty much all electronic media, for young kids, yes.

* Do you want your child to be strongly influenced by the same adult for eight years?

heartlight: Yes, as long as the teacher is a good one. I also know that in the school my dd will attend that one class has gone through several teachers because the parents were not satisfied.

* Do you know that the creation story your child will learn isn't even in the same ballpark with the creationist one of the Christian fundamentalists, despite the school saying it's "Christian-something-or-other"? Are you aware that they will be taught that the creators of the world/universe are 11 or 12 spirits, a pantheistic "Elohim," and not a monotheistic "God?"

heartlight: I understand that in a Waldorf school my child will be exposed to many myths, legends, stories (including Old Testament stories) and beliefs. That is fine with me.

* Do you know that -- eventually -- your child will be taught some science that is NOT the accepted science of the 21st century?

heartlight: I admit that I do not know enough about this; I will be sure to look into it. However, I do want to comment on one of the PLANS critics' claims that the National Council for Science Education claims that Waldorf is teaching the worst superstition. Well, that concerned me a little because the name of the organization sounded rather official. It turns out that the National Center for Science Education is merely an organization (like PLANS and also supported by famous PLANS critic Dan Dugan) concerned with teaching evolution in public schools. The NCSE has no more credibility than PLANS.


* Do you understand that Steiner's curriculum hasn't changed in more than 75 years, doesn't take account of the earlier maturation of kids and that it's almost all based on spiritual science premises that Steiner made up?

heartlight: I know that Waldorf education has an 80-year proven track record, however I do not believe it is stagnant. The teachers attend conferences and seminars which discuss current issues. I like what Waldorf education offers, and I do not want drastic changes. I think it works and produces well-rounded, clear-thinking, socially responsible graduates. And perhaps earlier maturation of children is not something we all want to encourage.

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of the curriculum, for all the grades at the school.

heartlight: I've got several books on this subject: Teaching as a Lively Art, School as a Journey, Waldorf Education, Waldorf Education, a Family Guide, Toward Wholeness: Rudolf Steiner Education in America. Looks good to me!

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of how Anthroposophy fits into the curriculum.

heartlight: Again, I've done my reading and research.

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ explanation of Steiner's child development model, in plain language, and for modern scientific educational research to back this up. Ask for
an explanation of "The Four Temperments" and how each temperment relates to physical characteristics.

heartlight: I have read much about Steiner's "child development model" and it makes sense to me. I believe that modern research has shown that television viewing is harmful to children, that the earlier introduction of academics can backfire later, etc. Indeed, I believe that Waldorf education addresses emotional intelligence. See this unbiased article in the Atlantic Monthly, entitled Schooling the Imagination. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99sep/9909waldorf.htm I believe that the classification of the four temperaments (sanguine, choleric, phlegmatic, and melancholic) is as useful as other ways to classify temperaments or personalities (Meyers-Briggs, introvert, extrovert, highly sensitive, etc.).

* Ask the school for a complete _written_ policy statement on parent/school relationships, and the school’s contractual agreement on it: for instance, what happens if a parent or parents disagree with something the school or teacher or curriculum does, and wants it changed or
wants his child not to partake in it? If you withdraw your child before the end of the year, will you have to continue to pay tuition?

heartlight: Being a lawyer, I always read contracts carefully.

* Ask for a _written_ statement regarding the use of Anthroposophical "child studies" (or any other type of assessment of the child), requiring that it divulge if speculation on the child's former life or lives is included, either privately or formally; requiring that there be an agreed-to,
complete, written record of any assessments; requiring that parents have the right to be present during such sessions, whether they involve the child or not.

heartlight: Whatever.

* Ask for a faculty list that contains information about the credentials and degrees obtained by each teacher.

heartlight: Okay.

* Are you aware that your child will be taught that fairies and gnomes actually exist, and that many of the teachers (at least those who are Anthroposophists) believe that these elemental beings are real, and even more, are very important?

heartlight: Fine with me, if true, but don't think the eighth graders are being taught this. Do you have a litmus test for the beliefs of all of your dds' teachers in their current school?

* Are you aware that the famous Waldorf 'wet-on-wet" watercolor painting is actually a spiritual science exercise, aimed at cultivating the child's soul/spirit? Are you aware that the amorphous quality of the images created by this wet technique is intended to frustrate the child's ability to draw with LINES -- which Steiner purported were remnants of "past lives" and thus should be done away with (except in form drawing, another spiritual science exercise)?

heartlight: I love the wet-on-wet watercolor painting that my daughter does. The experience of color she receives from this is so wonderful. I much prefer it to drawing between the black outlines of coloring books.

As I would prefer not to participate in this thread any longer, I want to invite those with sincere questions to contact me via private mail if they would like.
heartlight is offline  
#138 of 163 Old 04-13-2002, 03:48 PM
 
Britishmum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 4,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The responses to Lisa's list of questions surprise me, for the reason that she clearly said that this is a list that you might want to ask if you are considering Waldorf for your child.

I don't see anything wrong with this. Obviously, some people here can go through the list - and have done so - and are content with the answers that they have found in their own schools. That's great!

But others may not be decided, or may not find the answers that they receive to these questions satisfactory. What is wrong with a suggested list of questions to ask?

I still don't understand why people need to be defensive of the system, nor why they see PLANS as such a terrible organisation. As I've said before, if the system is worthwhile, it will stand up to scrutiny. Being defensive and painting critics negatively serves the opposite purpose. Certainly, it makes me feel more suspicious and want to delve even deeper. I'd prefer to hear positive arguments for the Waldorf philosophy than see other people's posts picked apart.
Britishmum is offline  
#139 of 163 Old 04-13-2002, 05:32 PM
 
Isis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,636
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This debate can go on and on.

You can gather enough data to support anything, but the bottom line is about how you live you life. There will always be something that doesn't turn out the way we had hoped. We can construct a life around blame and rebutal or we can focus on our own happiness and our children's. Occasional debate is fine and healthy, but excessive attack and defense is unnecessary. Count me among the guilty here.

I am going to take sanna and heartlight's lead and let this argument rest.

I have really said all I care to say.

Let the critics argue among themselves. Or let the critics on this board take some time out of the fight to explore some more postitive subjects. (Not naming names, but a few of the critics here have not posted anywhere else on Mothering.commune than in this Waldorf argument.) There is a lot more on this great website to explore!

See you around.

Have a great spring.
Isis is offline  
#140 of 163 Old 04-13-2002, 06:28 PM
 
MomtoMia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Unfortunately, the defensiveness and resentfulness displayed towards those who have criticized Waldorf on this thread has made me more, not less, suspicious of Steiner, Anthroposophy and Waldorf.

My interpretation thus far is that some of those who view themselves as pro-Waldorf are adamantly opposed to hearing ANY negative observation of Waldorf. This seems quite unreasonable. What is reasonable is that a Waldorf proponent, confident in their knowledge about and belief in the benefits of the system, welcomes questions and criticisms about Waldorf so they may successfully defend against these inquiries, thereby demonstrating the ability of Waldorf to remain unscathed under intense examination.

I do also see that some Waldorf supporters are willing to approach a few of the criticisms with what seem to be reasonable and valid responses. That is a productive way to approach a negative evaluation. At the same time, responses to other criticisms have been met with irrelevant or even snide remarks. This does nothing to validate the positive characteristics of Waldorf.

I might point out that the questions Lisa drew up were meant to be asked of the school officials - so that parents could ascertain their own comfort level with the school program based on answers to these questions. There is nothing wrong (and everything right!) with arming oneself with a list of important and pertinent questions to ask when considering a school for one's child(ren).

Regarding the issue of racism - I find it insulting and offensive to defend a man's racist claims and beliefs. One may be able to EXPLAIN them (based, as some seem to want to, on the time period in which the offense to place) but one cannot EXCUSE them.

I have just begun reading 'You Are Your Child's First Teacher' written by, unbeknownst to me, a staunch follower of Steiner.
This should prove interesting reading.

Mary
MomtoMia is offline  
#141 of 163 Old 04-13-2002, 07:23 PM
 
Sierra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just need to ask that we observe the Mothering Board's guidelines of not posting private emails or material which may be copyrighted or privately owned. This will prevent action being taken against Mothering, so that we will always have a place to continue these discussions.

You may summarize and provide links. Please edit past posts accordingly.

I'm pro-adoption reform, but not anti-adoption.
Sierra is offline  
#142 of 163 Old 04-14-2002, 12:22 AM
 
Amy+Kate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A little behind and to the left of you
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have just read through this entire post which has taken at least an hour but I am very glad that I did. I have a toddler who goes to a very small, informal waldorf playschool hosted at a Quaker Meeting House. We definitely enjoy this once a week group that is led by a Waldorf kindergarten teacher. Other than recommending a few anti-TV books and mildly enquiring whether I'd heard of such Waldorf ideas as the four temperaments, the Anthroposophy has been kept out of the classroom, and we haven't been questioned on the way we are growing our children, unless we ask her for advice. (she has been quite helpful on the point of discipline)

However, after reading some of the cautionary tales of some of these parents who had negative experiences in the Waldorf grades, I plan on going into the local Waldorf school with a list of questions, and with both eyes and intuition open. For this I am very grateful to the "critics" although you have burst my perfect little bubble.

One thing I noticed is that the main proponents of Waldorf on this page seem to be parents of mainly preschoolers and kindergarteners within Waldorf. There seems to be, in general, very little to complain about within a Waldorf K and I'm wondering whether my playgroup, the burgeoning "parent-toddler" groups, and to a certain extent the Kindergartens are more like Waldorf Lite since the children play and are not yet directly taught by a class teacher. Is it possible that the most ardent devotees of Waldorf on this discussion thread do not yet know what they are in for?

The other thing I noticed, unfortunately, is that the pro-Waldorf people here get very hot under the collar and make sniping asides that I don't think are very appropriate. The critical voices here are not meant to be personal attacks on a person's educational preferences, but merely another side to the debate.

I'm not a critic of Waldorf and am learning everything that I can about this topic. I am willing to bet that some class teachers and schools are looser in drawing the line between dogma and common sense. But I for one won't be sending my child there without turning over a few stones.
Amy+Kate is offline  
#143 of 163 Old 04-14-2002, 04:51 PM
 
MomtoMia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
There seems to be, in general, very little to complain about within a Waldorf K and I'm wondering whether my playgroup, the burgeoning "parent-toddler" groups, and to a certain extent the Kindergartens are more like Waldorf Lite since the children play and are not yet directly taught by a class teacher. Is it possible that the most ardent devotees of Waldorf on this discussion thread do not yet know what they are in for?
That's an interesting observation - you could be on to something!

My daughter falls into the toddler category - I'll add this comment to my catalogue of information when we visit the nearby Walforf school.

Thanks for joining in.

Mary
MomtoMia is offline  
#144 of 163 Old 04-14-2002, 05:53 PM
 
Britishmum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 4,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a good point. Either by design or otherwise, perhaps parents are lulled in the early years.

Also, some of the things that would concern me about older children - eg being told that fairies do exist - might sound sweet and innocent in the younger classes. These things would seem more extraordinary if you heard them being said to an older child.
Britishmum is offline  
#145 of 163 Old 04-14-2002, 07:57 PM
 
mamamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MomtoMia
[B]Unfortunately, the defensiveness and resentfulness displayed towards those who have criticized Waldorf on this thread has made me more, not less, suspicious of Steiner, Anthroposophy and Waldorf.

My interpretation thus far is that some of those who view themselves as pro-Waldorf are adamantly opposed to hearing ANY negative observation of Waldorf.

I do also see that some Waldorf supporters are willing to approach a few of the criticisms with what seem to be reasonable and valid responses. That is a productive way to approach a negative evaluation. At the same time, responses to other criticisms have been met with irrelevant or even snide remarks. This does nothing to validate the positive characteristics of Waldorf.

Mary,

I understand how you could come to this conclusion from reading the posts in this forum. Unfortunately, Waldorf supporters have become quite defensive because of some pretty underhanded moves by the people at PLANS. I am a Waldorf teacher and supporter and one of the posters at this board took an email that I had sent to friends at an email group for Waldorf early childhood teachers and posted here and at another site without my permission. This kind of behavior has put us Waldorf supporters on a bit of an edge.

I would encourage you to do your own research. Learn about anthroposophy, meet the people at the school in your area, ask the questions that were suggested here, but don't form any conclusions based on the conversations that have occured at this board. Take them with the grain of salt and use them as a jumping off point for your own individual research.

Good luck

Meredith
mamamer is offline  
#146 of 163 Old 04-14-2002, 09:02 PM
 
MomtoMia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I would encourage you to do your own research. Learn about anthroposophy, meet the people at the school in your area, ask the questions that were suggested here, but don't form any conclusions based on the conversations that have occured at this board. Take them with the grain of salt and use them as a jumping off point for your own individual research.
Meredith,

In my previous posts I've made it quite clear that this is exactly what I intend to do (pursue my own research, that is).

I've also made it quite clear that I've not yet developed an informed opinion regarding Waldorf or Anthroposophy -- beyond my opinon that Steiner held racist beliefs which are inexcuseable.
(Steiner's racist declarations seem to be undisputed by either side, on this thread anyway).

I did offer my interpretation of the responses to Waldorf criticisms.

In doing so, my objective was to convey that alarm bells invariably go off in my brain whenever members of a particular group appear to resent examination of their system. The validity of either argument become irrelevant as my internal monologue generates the following questions: Why are they so defensive? What have they to hide? Why won't they address the criticisms directly? Do they or do they not possess thorough knowledge of the material?

If indeed there is no legitimacy to these criticisms, then the resistance to probing inquiries do a great disservice to the integrity of Waldorf, as it is this resistance ITSELF that begins to set off the bells.

Do not worry, I tend to reserve judgment until after I've finished with my own investigation and it would be my guess that the the majority of thoughtful, diplomatic, and progressive thinking idividuals do the same. However, that does not preclude the discovery of a few insights along the way.

Mary
MomtoMia is offline  
#147 of 163 Old 04-14-2002, 09:12 PM
 
MomtoMia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Meredith,
I just read my post and hope that I was not too brusque for your liking.
I do believe I understand the intent of and appreciate your post.
Mary
MomtoMia is offline  
#148 of 163 Old 04-16-2002, 06:58 PM
 
zinemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: from the fire roads to the interstate
Posts: 6,569
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've been away from Mothering for a while, but I participated in this thread early on; it may be coming to an end, but I wanted to add something.

As I was reading the whole thread, I too was struck by how many of the posters have kids in pre-school or pre-K, and also by the fact that (as far as I can tell, and I could be wrong on this) no one on this thread has actually been a student at a Waldorf school. Now, I certainly do not profess to be the voice of authority on the Waldorf experience (nor am I either a proponent or a detractor of Waldorf education) , but I went to a Waldorf school for years (elementary and hs), so I do have some perspective on this.

A lot of what the waldorf critics have to say is appalling. I would be appalled if I encountered the teachings they describe in a school I sent my child to, or if I encountered them as a student myself. I've made the point elsewhere that Waldorf schools should be judged individually. But here's what puzzles me. My school was the crown jewel of The Threefold Community in Spring Valley, NY. TTC is one of the epicenters of anthroposophism in the US. The community dwellers were die-hard Steinerites, there was a Waldorf bookstore, farm, guesthouse, pharmacy and doctors. Many of the teachers had been Waldorf-trained in Europe. These folks were hard-core!

Now, this being the case, why is it that just about everything the waldorf critics have said comes as a complete surprise to me! The "weird science" stuff is especially baffling. I was never taught about the 12 signs of the zodiac. I was certainly never told that humanity originated in Atlantis! I'm left-handed and no one ever suggested that this was a problem. I entered that school in 2nd grade already reading, while my classmates were still reciting the alphabet, but I wasn't encouraged to slow down or stop reading. If anyone can shed some light on why, in such an anthroposophical atmosphere, I never encountered what the Waldorf critics are describing, I'd be interested to hear it.

My experience as a Waldorf student was not perfect. Bullying was tolerated at my school - as it was pretty much universally in the 70's; we're all a lot sadder and wiser these days. There are other criticisms that I have as well. But for the most part, the complaints I have regarding my experience in a Waldorf school are very different from those raised by the critics.
zinemama is offline  
#149 of 163 Old 04-16-2002, 11:43 PM
 
heartmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with Irishmommy
Posts: 6,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have read most of this thread and I am pretty amazed.

I feel that I have learned a tremendous amount about Waldorf thanks to the critics here.

I do tend to be put off by the defensiveness of Waldorf supporters--I understand it, but I don't think that making people feel badly about wanting to share negative experiences is going to look good to those reading. If they are not lying, then what they say is very useful.

I appreciated the list offered as a guide to ask at Waldorf schools, and was surprised people answered it here too. It was clearly stated to be used by those investigating Waldorf schooling.

I shared in another thread that one of the dearest, kindest, purest people I have ever met is a very devoted anthroposphy student, and she has shared alot about anthroposophy and Waldorf with me. I would be thrilled for someone like her to teach my child in any setting. She is a wonderful, extraordinary, trustworthy person, and I am sure many like her exist in Waldorf schools.

However the thing is, from reading that list of questions, and even from hearing the answers, I have learned that I am *not* okay with some of those questions being answered with a "yes" ; yet already those who support Waldorf have answered that "yes" they agree with some things that bothered me.

The issue of the child being expected to follow the teacher's direction and not think critically--I would not at all be okay with a school that felt that way. It is good to know this is something Waldorf parents accept, because I know for sure it would bother me. I could go on but you get the idea...just from reading that list, I thought "Wow, I would be disturbed if a teacher felt this way, and I might not have thought to ask if not for this list!".
I thought the list was a great idea.

Also, it does seem absurd to think that I, who have only visited a Waldorf school, sit here well aware of the controversy surrounding Steiner, yet some say teachers they know at Waldorf schools are unaware of this controversy. That does seem unlikely. I know about it, and I barely had to scratch the surface of alternative education circles to get an earful...

Anyway, I hope this discussion does continue, because I for one have gained a good deal of useful info from what is being posted..

Heartmama

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
heartmama is offline  
#150 of 163 Old 04-17-2002, 02:40 AM
 
Britishmum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 4,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Heartmama, I so agree with what you say. I came with an open mind about Waldorf, but alarm bells rang for me as the discussion progressed. I too thought that the list of questions was useful - some people will like the answers they get, others won't, and that was the whole point to having a list. Each individual can then ask the right questions of a school and of themselves, to decide if Waldorf is for them or not.

Zinemama - it was good to hear a personal experience that was factual and not defensive. Thanks! I'd be very interested to hear what your complaints would be about your Waldorf experience, as they are obviously different to what we've read here.
Britishmum is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off