They’re just bee’s wax crayons, for cripes sake - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 02:40 AM
 
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Maybe US manufacturers were making ethnic dolls in the 60's...but I am in my 30's and remember being really surprised the first time I saw a black doll (I am in Canada). They are everywhere now.

You said, "as long as one manufacturer includes black in one set (even if it's the 50 color set) and that they are in Waldorf school kindergartens as long as one Waldorf school kindergarten has them. You could argue that minorities are represented in Waldorf doll stores - as long as one store has minority dolls. And when I see a black angel for sale on one of these websites, I guess my point will be moot. It won't make my point invalid, however, only arguable. "

This argument could be reversed as well....'As long as ONE manufacturer DOESN'T sell black crayons...as long as one Waldorf doll store DOESN'T sell ethnic dolls...yada, yada...you could argue that minorities are NOT represented by Waldorf stores'...

Some people will never be satisfied...lol

Lisa
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#32 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 11:15 AM
 
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Hey, I am definitely for promoting a realistic view of the human race and the "magical realms".

What I do think is important to note is that when a school submits a bulk order for the upcoming year (what you guys research on the internet is directed towards parents), they order through "Mercurius" based in Sacramento and the home of AWSNA. I have a catalog here and there is definitely a limiting on the black, etc. in the early years.

The bigger and more established the school, the more they adhere to strict Waldorf standards (i.e. Seattle, New York schools, etc.). I say this as someone who has been through training and has been offered jobs as a W. teacher in California, Washington State and Virginia.

This is just my experience, and I know I cannot speak for all schools at all times.

Sincerley,
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#33 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 12:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigmamaj
You said, "as long as one manufacturer includes black in one set (even if it's the 50 color set) and that they are in Waldorf school kindergartens as long as one Waldorf school kindergarten has them. You could argue that minorities are represented in Waldorf doll stores - as long as one store has minority dolls. And when I see a black angel for sale on one of these websites, I guess my point will be moot. It won't make my point invalid, however, only arguable. "

This argument could be reversed as well....'As long as ONE manufacturer DOESN'T sell black crayons...as long as one Waldorf doll store DOESN'T sell ethnic dolls...yada, yada...you could argue that minorities are NOT represented by Waldorf stores'...

Some people will never be satisfied...lol
I visited quite a few websites looking for a black doll and, as I said, only one site had them. I assume you have found several - why not supply links to them? And what about the black fairies and angels? I haven't found them yet despite the link you provided saying they are there. Can you supply any websites that offer them?

I am arguing that minorities are NOT represented by Waldorf stores - not because I found one website that doesn't represent them but because I could only find one that does. And, no, that one website will not satisfy me that Waldorf stores represent minorities adequately - so I guess I must be one of those "people" you are referring to.

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#34 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 12:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by beansavi
Hey, I am definitely for promoting a realistic view of the human race and the "magical realms".

What I do think is important to note is that when a school submits a bulk order for the upcoming year (what you guys research on the internet is directed towards parents), they order through "Mercurius" based in Sacramento and the home of AWSNA. I have a catalog here and there is definitely a limiting on the black, etc. in the early years.
Do they even offer block crayons in black for Waldorf schools?

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The bigger and more established the school, the more they adhere to strict Waldorf standards (i.e. Seattle, New York schools, etc.). I say this as someone who has been through training and has been offered jobs as a W. teacher in California, Washington State and Virginia.
I agree - the smaller, more parent-run Waldorf schools are likely to have a more open, less dogmatic approach to things like color. The larger, more dogmatic schools are more likely to become rigid and controlling about what is spiritually/pedagogically appropriate for young children.

Pete
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#35 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 01:37 PM
 
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All of these sites had Ethnic Waldorf dolls for sale. Several of the had a 'make your own' option. I did find sites that didn't carry ethnic dolls. These were mainly the sites that carry the Kathe Kruse line.

http://www.weirdollsandcrafts.com/dolls/dolls.html

http://www.naturalworldarts.com/dolls_pg2.html

http://www.joyswaldorfdolls.com/

http://www.achildsdream.com/creative...dorf_dolls.htm

http://www.threesisterstoys.com/browse.asp?id=28

http://www.blueskymama.com/dolls.htm (custom dolls)

http://peanutbutterkisses.com/dolls_waldorf.html

Lisa
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#36 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 01:41 PM
 
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About 9 yrs ago, I bought two Asian dolls from www.magiccabin.com
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#37 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 01:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bigmamaj
All of these sites had Ethnic Waldorf dolls for sale. Several of the had a 'make your own' option. I did find sites that didn't carry ethnic dolls. These were mainly the sites that carry the Kathe Kruse line.

http://www.weirdollsandcrafts.com/dolls/dolls.html

http://www.naturalworldarts.com/dolls_pg2.html

http://www.joyswaldorfdolls.com/

http://www.achildsdream.com/creative...dorf_dolls.htm

http://www.threesisterstoys.com/browse.asp?id=28

http://www.blueskymama.com/dolls.htm (custom dolls)

http://peanutbutterkisses.com/dolls_waldorf.html

Lisa
OK, Great! And how are we coming on the angels and fairies?

Pete
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#38 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 02:12 PM
 
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OK, Great! And how are we coming on the angels and fairies?
In my children's classrooms the fairies had no ethnicity. They were tiny scraps of blue, green, yellow, and pink silk that fluttered at the end of a string like butterflies. The angels looked just like this: http://www.iseespots.com/merchant2/m...ategory_Code=V . They were made of wool. Like the fairies, the angels don't have an ethnicity either. They're white like light, not white like people. Very few people come in this color. The Waldorf dolls which represent people rather than fairies or angels typically come in natural colors, not in white, blue and green.

As someone else pointed out, I think it's usually *parents* who buy these things from companies like these for their children. Our kindergarten teachers usually made the dolls themselves for their own classroom.

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#39 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LindaCl
In my children's classrooms the fairies had no ethnicity. They were tiny scraps of blue, green, yellow, and pink silk that fluttered at the end of a string like butterflies. The angels looked just like this: http://www.iseespots.com/merchant2/m...ategory_Code=V . They were made of wool. Like the fairies, the angels don't have an ethnicity either. They're white like light, not white like people. Very few people come in this color. The Waldorf dolls which represent people rather than fairies or angels typically come in natural colors, not in white, blue and green.

As someone else pointed out, I think it's usually *parents* who buy these things from companies like these for their children. Our kindergarten teachers usually made the dolls themselves for their own classroom.

Linda
Well, here are some links to Waldorf product manufacturers who include angels in their product lines. Let's see how angels are represented here shall we?

http://www.willowtreetoys.com/category/1aa/
http://thewoodenwagon.com/Merchant2/...endt_und_kuehn
http://thewoodenwagon.com/Merchant2/..._Code=nativity
http://www.kouklaonline.com/waldorfdolls.htm
http://www.waldorftreasures.com/wald...ialtydolls.htm
http://www.achildsdream.com/creative...hand_dolls.htm
http://www.blessingscatalog.com/menu...&CurrentPage=4
http://www.seasonsnaturaltoys.com/dolls/doll_kits.htm

And I'm still waiting to see a black angel.

And I've seen the dolls you are talking about, Linda, but I've also seen angels made by kindergarten teachers represented in beeswax figures - always pink skinned.

Pete
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#40 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 04:40 PM
 
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And I'm still waiting to see a black angel.
There was what looks to me like a black angel in one of the links you listed above.

Angel doll

The above link points to a Waldorf angel doll that comes in the skin color you choose.

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I've also seen angels made by kindergarten teachers represented in beeswax figures - always pink skinned.
Did you express your concerns about this to any of them? If so, what was the reason given to you?

Linda
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#41 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 05:05 PM
 
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Pete,

I think you have a conspiracy obsession here...so you found as many sites that didn't have brown skinned dolls as I did...what does that say??

I think it is as simple as supply & demand...if more people request black, asian, hispanic dolls/angels/fairies, people will carry them. Period.

BTW...yes, the brown skinned angel has blond hair...all black people have to have black hair? LOL...you should tell that to a few of my friends.

Lisa
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#42 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 05:26 PM
 
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Pete,

I think you have a conspiracy obsession here...so you found as many sites that didn't have brown skinned dolls as I did...what does that say??
I don't think I have any kind of obsession. I'm pointing out something that occurs commonly. I think it says what I said it says - no black angels in Waldorf.
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I think it is as simple as supply & demand...if more people request black, asian, hispanic dolls/angels/fairies, people will carry them. Period.
It's not about supply and demand at all. It's about the impressions young children get in Waldorf kindergarten - that black is not a color and that angels have to be white.
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BTW...yes, the brown skinned angel has blond hair...all black people have to have black hair? LOL...you should tell that to a few of my friends.
I'll tell you what - why don't you show "a few of your friends" what I have written here and see what they think?

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#43 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 06:34 PM
 
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Pete- "The third listing offers brown skinned fairies with blond or white hair - not exactly what I would call representative of minorities.
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BTW...yes, the brown skinned angel has blond hair...all black people have to have black hair? LOL...you should tell that to a few of my friends.
Pete must have overlooked that the option for brown-haired, brown skinned fairies was available on the same page.

Again, I don't remember my children's Waldorf classrooms having fairy or angel dolls in this style at all. I only remember one 'baby' doll, a girl doll which had dark brown hair and a somewhat ambiguous skin color, sort of deepish tan, and an African child aged doll made and sold by a Waldorf school in Africa.

There were many puppets to play with, and they came in a wide range of hair and skin colors. And there were many little felt gnomes whose faces were made of wool batting, with the wool colored in natural, browns, and grays usually.

It seems like there were probably the little wooden human figures in the classroom someplace, but I can't recall them. I only remember the wooden farm animals.

Linda
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#44 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 07:57 PM
 
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Pete must have overlooked that the option for brown-haired, brown skinned fairies was available on the same page.
I did overlook it - and going back I still cannot find what you mean. The closest I found was choice of peach or brown skin with choice of dress color.

Most sites offer a peach or brown skin. I know what the "brown" skin fabric looks like because my ex was a dollmaker for a while and sold her dolls commercially. The brown skin could, at best, be described as olive skin - certainly not black or dark brown by any means. Some dollmakers go a shade darker with their skin colors and offer a "mocha" - which is a light brown. Hair color choices, again, often exclude black.
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Again, I don't remember my children's Waldorf classrooms having fairy or angel dolls in this style at all. I only remember one 'baby' doll, a girl doll which had dark brown hair and a somewhat ambiguous skin color, sort of deepish tan, and an African child aged doll made and sold by a Waldorf school in Africa.

There were many puppets to play with, and they came in a wide range of hair and skin colors. And there were many little felt gnomes whose faces were made of wool batting, with the wool colored in natural, browns, and grays usually.

It seems like there were probably the little wooden human figures in the classroom someplace, but I can't recall them. I only remember the wooden farm animals.
So, are you saying that in all likelyhood the conditions I describe existed and you simply cannot remember them?

I think we have beat this subject to death. I've either made my case or I haven't. Everyone here can go to the links we've both provided and draw their own conclusions about the representation of dolls, angels cloth, wood or otherwise.

Pete
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#45 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 08:04 PM
 
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The subject was beaten to death for sure.
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#46 of 48 Old 08-15-2005, 09:25 PM
 
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So, are you saying that in all likelyhood the conditions I describe existed and you simply cannot remember them?
No, I'm saying that I don't remember if there were any little wooden dolls to play with in the classroom except animals, therefore I can't, and you shouldn't, conclude that if they were there, they were or weren't multicultural.

The main toys in our Waldorf kindergarten were the child-sized playhouse (sink, store, dishes, etc), puppets, toy animals, cloths, wooden crates and stackable wooden blocks and shapes, headware and capes for dress-up, and a sand table with shells and things. There weren't many dolls, and the two I do remember, I rarely saw being played with. One sat in a chair, and the other rested in the cradle most of the time when I was there. The Waldorf dolls represented on these websites as we're discussing were the type of toys children might have at home, but my children didn't have them in their classroom.

Linda
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#47 of 48 Old 08-26-2005, 04:27 AM
 
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Adding to say that first grade started this week, and we have black crayons, which several children were using the other day. Most children made outline drawings of whatever they were making (houses, ships, people, etc.) but they used all sorts of colors to do so.

Early intervention specialist and parent consultant since 2002.
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#48 of 48 Old 08-27-2005, 11:45 AM
 
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In my children's kindy class there were three dolls to play with that were made by the Waldorf trained teachers. One was blond with white skin, one was asian skin toned with black hair and one was a deep brown with black curly hair so I guess we were missing the Hispanic doll. There was a Southwest Native American Storyteller figure that was used before every story time. The gnomes came in many skin tones and wool tones. The wood figures were natural wood. The kids used black and brown crayons available. The capes came in many colors one of them being brown.

This was at an established 25 year old school.
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