A Safe, Healthy Haven: Waldorf Questioners/Concerns Thread - Page 27 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-23-2007, 02:13 PM
 
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You keep repeating that in every school bad things happen. In the Netherlands we have an old saying: The stain on others peoples vest is not the soap for your own clean chest.

Ah, yes. This is a good saying, Elisabeth.

I prefer to stay away from rationalization. Rationalization is the stuff of crazy-making levels of group-think denial in my own Waldorf experience.





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Originally Posted by eyeB4U View Post
If you feel the need to defend the Waldorf-style please do so. Tell me what is so special about Waldorf that they can neglect sexual abuse and ignore molestation. I will allways listen to you bye Elisabeth

I agree with and support this request. However, I feel the need to again express that I, personally, do not welcome posts of a countering nature here on this specific thread. MDC and the Waldorf forum are open to the members of this board to freely post threads of specific topics. This particular thread is here for those of us who would like to process our challenges with regard to Waldorf/Anthroposophy and not for the purpose of debate.



For the sake of clarity:

Main Entry: de·bate
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, dE-
Function: noun

a contention by words or arguments
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:46 PM
 
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HI,May May, I'm not in for debate or arguments either, just wanted to show that I was pissed off!!! Bye Elisabeth
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Old 05-23-2007, 06:45 PM
 
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Elisabeth, I hear you. I am glad you're sharing yourself, here. And I was agreeing with you, btw.

I interpreted it to mean that the essence of the quote you quoted was about the hazards of rationalization. I also feel supportive of your request for diverse opinions of Waldorf. My dictionary reference was to elaborate on my PP, a few posts back.
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Old 05-24-2007, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'd love to know what you editted out.
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Dear Beth,
Thank you so much for your beautifull poetry. Thank you for showing your heart and speaking so clearly about everything that happened to you and your family. Especially how you've managed to create a new start so inspired and intelligent. Loved your story about your remote-controlled Da Vinci-son, by the way. But above all, I really admire your stamina when it comes to fight this lame and shoulder-shrugging behaviour of the so-called 'lucky' Waldorfians. Love Elisabeth
Thanks, Elisabeth. Sometimes I feel like a real dork after I share what is going on in my heart (a very vulnerable place to be), but I try to push through that and go ahead and share.

I truly thank you for being a good friend to me on this thread, through this experience. I am here to do the same for you, and others, too. Have a happy day.

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Old 05-24-2007, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ah, yes. This is a good saying, Elisabeth.

I prefer to stay away from rationalization. Rationalization is the stuff of crazy-making levels of group-think denial in my own Waldorf experience.

I agree with and support this request. However, I feel the need to again express that I, personally, do not welcome posts of a countering nature here on this specific thread. MDC and the Waldorf forum are open to the members of this board to freely post threads of specific topics. This particular thread is here for those of us who would like to process our challenges with regard to Waldorf/Anthroposophy and not for the purpose of debate.
Very well said, May May. I am really grateful that you put that into words. There is an important difference in generally being free to post anywhere, and using that as an excuse to undermine others trying to process, over time, what they have endured. So, we agree.

I'd also like to clear up something else that came up a while back from another poster or two that felt that the problems we discuss here are not found on any large scale, or that they are just isolated incidences in one part of the U.S.

EyeB4u is from Holland, and I believe May May and I are from opposite ends of the United States. There are literally thousands of miles between us.

Yet our experiences are strikingly similar, suggesting (imo) that there is an inherent culture that is Waldorf, worldwide.

And we all met here.

TGIF,
Beth/Bean
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Old 05-24-2007, 12:58 PM
 
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EyeB4u is from Holland, and I believe May May and I are from opposite ends of the United States. There are literally thousands of miles between us.

Yet our experiences are strikingly similar, suggesting (imo) that there is an inherent culture that is Waldorf, worldwide.



Yes, I too have noticed the phenomenon that appears to be universal experience WRT Waldorf education. Of course, not everyone involved with Waldorf education has these expereiences, but by "universal" I mean that I have noticed the amazing similarity of stories like ours from Waldorf-experienced people all around the world. I find that to be both chilling and validating all at once. So, instead of each culture having it's own flair that influences the Waldorf school in that particular area, it seems that the predominant influence is Anthroposophy's inherent culture's universality. Perhaps that would explain the dogmatism and resulting intimidation.

Oh, and, BTW ~ I am in the southwest US.
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Old 05-24-2007, 01:34 PM
 
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Okay, well, as a fairly new member to the boards I just want to play a bit of devil's advocate for a moment. I know you all want this thread to be strictly a support/concerns type of nature and I can respect that....but when you see a lot of posts from people saying that they have given up on sending their kid to waldorf because of this thread alone, then it becomes more than just a "support" thread, don't you think?

Now having a completely biased type of thread as this is okay when stated as so but having people stumble over here (as I did) and only getting one side of a story seems a bit unethical to me.

I'm sure most of you are all too delighted to steer people away from waldorf because of your experiences but again, is that presenting a fair picture of all sides, not just yours? Even though you may not have intended your thread to attract people trying to make a decision, it has, and I for one believe you therefore have the responsibility to present your experiences without exaggeration and a lot of bias as you have.

Here are a few other observations I've made here. First off, it would be more productive to have fewer posts with side conversations and unrelated banter. That way those looking to do research could more easily navigate through the thread. I know you made a table of contents but this is just a thought.

Secondly it is a bit misleading to see how many pages are here to then find many of the posts the aforementioned or the same one or two individuals bumping up the thread or stating a post count...again, making it harder to get to the "meat" of the thread when you don't have a lot of time. In fact, at glance it is awfully alarming to see such a lengthy thread about waldorf's shortcomings but again, there are a handful of the same people posting, not 40 different people with the same experiences. This also leads me to believe that the OP and some others seem to have more of an agenda than just using this thread for support purposes.

I hope you don't mind a little constructive criticism from a fairly objective newcomer.
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Old 05-24-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, pixiewytch.

I'm not exactly clear on the intention of mentioning what you're saying, here, however, as this thread makes no claim to be an official representative of Waldorf education. We are not aiming to have any kind of political-correctness or PR approach for or in relation to Anthroposophy, to be clear.

I cannot speak for anyone else, here, but I will speak for myself ~ as one of 82,352 MDC members, I am posting here for my own, personal healing process WRT my 12 years of study of Anthroposophy and seven years of multiple angles of participation in Waldorf education.

If you're having concerns about unjustness WRT Waldorf education, then I invite you to contact the Waldorf schools directly. Please shine your spotlight of inquiry and examination on the source, directly, if you are curious about dysfunction in Waldorf schools. There are plenty of threads supporting Waldorf education here at MDC. In fact, this thread is only one of dissent where there are multiple threads placed in this forum for the purpose of positive support.

I trust that MDC members are free-thinking, intelligent individuals (as I trust all human beings are, with respect to their own, personal realities) that can gauge for themselves the information on the 615,185 MDC threads as to whether or not or how the information contained within can or cannot serve their individual lives.

In my seven years of controversial experience with my local Waldorf school, I have discovered that my story is not limited to my personal family's relations with the school. In fact, there are quite a few other families who've had similar negative experiences with just this one local Waldorf school in my city. Even more alarming is that they all have striking degrees of common denominators. One of those striking common denominators, pixiewytch, is the experience of multiple people countering them on their own, personal (negative )Waldorf experience and resulting opinions. The various countering comments always go something like this, pixiewytch:

“I have no idea what you’re talking about.”
“That has not been my experience.”
“You’re wrong. That’s not what happened.”
“That does not exist, here.”
"You don't know what you're talking about!"
::Blatant denial regarding disparaging comments::
::Facial expressions that look at one like they have four heads when they tell the story of their negative Waldorf experience.::


Meanwhile, unfortunately, things come and go around the local grapevine until they reach the person, directly. They are comments usually played to the tune of blatant, horrendous rumors (likely the result of indirect, dysfunctional communication i.e. *gossip*).

Then the situations often progress to the point at which the person in question is feeling cornered and that they have to decide, quite literally, between their personal integrity and their child’s educational needs (and/or other very serious, life-changing factors) - with no place for healthy, functional, just communication between the parties.

A funny thing usually happens next: the person begins to doubt their own sanity.

So, the common result for those of us who’re expressing dissent on this thread and elsewhere is that we ended up internalizing the problem. We became our own devil’s advocate. The disastrous result in my own experience was the requirement of years of healing work in response. It’s been good for me in that I’ve become really solid and intimate with my own values and boundaries. At this point, I am confident that I will no longer give someone else the power to trigger me to doubt my own experience again in this lifetime, and I am thankful to have had the negative experience with Anthroposophy for that reason.

With all due respect, I’d like to say that we as those who share the negative experiences of Waldorf do not need yet another “devil’s advocate” blocking our path to healing. And, after all my experience in this area, I can only now say that I wish there had been information such as this available to me back in 1994 when I first began studying Anthroposophy and encountering the massive amounts of positive and supportive information available. May this thread serve others as the truer devil’s advocate (by definition) in the Waldorf equation, in my opinion.

And that leads into my one last point: We are all human beings, here. That is our single most universal common denominator. Each human being is entitled to their own opinions. There can be conflicting opinions within a conversation (there can even be conflicting opinions within an individual person) but each individual is still entitled to theirs. This translates into No One Being Wrong Ever - because their opinion is what is true for them. End of story, IMO. There is no need to defend or justify what is true for oneself. To tell someone else that they are “wrong” is inaccurate and impossible. Their truth may be “wrong” for another person, but not for the speaker. I ask that this distinction between individual truths be clear as factual for each individual, so that we are not misleading ourselves into another endless circle of pointless debate. Put moresuccinctly, I am entitled to my story and I will not defend it to those who have had different experiences with Waldorf than mine. You’re entitled to yours, too, and please do share it on a different thread.

Just as I’ve mentioned before and will say again ~


To those of you who have concerns about our concerns on this thread, please feel free and encouraged to begin your own, fresh thread in the Waldorf forum here at MDC and tell all about your wonderful, positive experiences with Anthroposophy. This, however, is the thread for those of us who’d like to express and process our controversial experiences with Waldorf and do not want to defend, justify or prove anything to those of you who disagree.


Peace, please.
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Old 05-24-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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I would never come here or anywhere else and tell somebody they were wrong. I try to be open to all sides. I just wonder if maybe those looking for waldorf info need the devil's advocate just as much as you feel you don't. Like I said, I've seen a number of comments from folks saying they would not look into waldorf based on this thread alone. That seems like an awfully slippery slope. This would be a non issue if posts here stated simply facts or followed up opinion with a statement like "this is just my opinion" but most of the posts are more forward and confrontational than such. This makes sense to me considering how emotionally motivated people here are after such horrible experiences. To me, that is all the more reason to take some responsibility in clarifying the opinions here as just that and separating them from fact.

If you do such, how is it invalidating your feelings or experiences? You are simply clarifying what is fact and what is your exclusive opinion instead of all of the blanket statements I see along with the confrontation.

I'm not here to silence anyone. I don't believe in that sort of thing. Nor am I representative of waldorf or any other hidden agenda. However, I'm glad I did look further than this thread to do my own research of all sides and visit my local waldorf school with many questions that I gleaned from this thread. That is a positive thing!

I guess the emotionally confrontational posts just don't sit with me and perhaps a webpage would be more appropriate than trying to objectively (which isn't going to happen here) help someone make a decision about choosing waldorf.

I'm trying to think of an effective analogy here but I guess it is kind of like a woman who had a horrible abortion experience counseling women who were about to have the procedure done. It just wouldn't be objective, regardless of how valid and important her experience had been.
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:09 PM
 
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I would never come here or anywhere else and tell somebody they were wrong.

I hear you, pixiewytch. I hear that the emotional expression on this thread does not sit well with you. Feel free to not read it if that is what best serves you. And I mean that sincerely.

Again, I will state that there is no mention nor intention in this particular thread of any purpose of being "objective" or of being anything official with regard to Waldorf. We are simply human beings, first, who are also MDC members who are then sharing our opinions at MDC as are all the thousands upon thousands of the rest of us MDC members.

No thread discussing the subject of Waldorf education and Anthroposophy could possibly be "objective" as it would take a certain degree of experience in order for one to formulate their subjective opinions - as we're ALL sharing, here, with no one's opinion being more powerful than another's.

I believe that mentioning things such as your abortion-experience-sharing analogous scenario infers a "wrongness" about us freely expressing ourselves on this thread or elsewhere at MDC for that matter. Turned around, would you actually tell a woman sharing her negative abortion experience that she should set up a website and that this place "might not be the best place" to express herself?

Discussion boards, in general, have the universal effect of "influencing people's decisions" billions upon billions of times per day. That is the nature of "discussion" and communication.

Thanks for the suggestions but I am not interested in setting up a website nor in suppressing myself, here.
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Old 05-24-2007, 04:27 PM
 
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I'd love to know what you editted out.


Thanks, Elisabeth. Sometimes I feel like a real dork after I share what is going on in my heart (a very vulnerable place to be), but I try to push through that and go ahead and share.

I truly thank you for being a good friend to me on this thread, through this experience. I am here to do the same for you, and others, too. Have a happy day.


Thanks Bean you rock!!!
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Old 05-24-2007, 05:36 PM
 
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Hello Pixie,
Offcourse it is ludicrous if you only look at this thread alone to inform yourself about Walf-education. Who on earth would do that?? I can't imagine any person, really I don't.

You are right about the structure of this thread. Beansavi is doing her best to make a table of contents. She invited all off us to come up with ideas.

Having your children in and out of Waldorf is a complicated matter and yes this thread becomes emotional sometimes. I did try to persuade someone to step out of the Waldorf-education-cult. That was wrong, because everyone makes his own choices in his own time. out of their own heart.

Code:
I'm sure most of you are all too delighted to steer people away from waldorf because of your experiences but again, is that presenting a fair picture of all sides, not just yours? Even though you may not have intended your thread to attract people trying to make a decision, it has, and I for one believe you therefore have the responsibility to present your experiences without exaggeration and a lot of bias as you have.
but delighted to steer people away from waldorf???? And I never exaggerate in what I have to say about my anthro-experiences. I'm just happy to be on this board and if there were too much exeggarated stories I lost interest anyway. Stay tuned Pixy, I hope you see what I mean, Bye Elisabeth
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, well, as a fairly new member to the boards I just want to play a bit of devil's advocate for a moment. I know you all want this thread to be strictly a support/concerns type of nature and I can respect that....but
That "but" is becoming a familiar "but" around here! You say you don't want to do something...BUT, then you go ahead and do it.:
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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but when you see a lot of posts from people saying that they have given up on sending their kid to waldorf because of this thread alone, then it becomes more than just a "support" thread, don't you think?
It's pretty irrelevant, really. We are not responsible for making up people's minds. They can do that all by themselves. The fact that it was stated as a "negative issue" is disturbing to me. It reminds me of my days in Waldorf.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm sure most of you are all too delighted to steer people away from waldorf because of your experiences but again, is that presenting a fair picture of all sides, not just yours? Even though you may not have intended your thread to attract people trying to make a decision, it has, and I for one believe you therefore have the responsibility to present your experiences without exaggeration and a lot of bias as you have.
Wow. the fact that you claim to know whether or not a person's story is exagerrated or not is a viloation of UA rules.

In fact, that type of mind reading is exactly what was done to me in Waldorf and does not make your "side" (since you present it that way) look very well at all. You are actually shooting yourself in the foot, imo.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow. Again, with all the energy you put into this post, you sound pretty threatened by us. I suggest you take your issues up with Lauren.

You obviously have not read this entire thread. If you do a thread search you will see there are dozens of posters here, and what you are saying about there being a few people posing as hundreds is slanderous against us in order to dissuade readers from believing in our authenticity.

Very unethical. I am not biting.

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Originally Posted by pixiewytch View Post
Okay, well, as a fairly new member to the boards I just want to play a bit of devil's advocate for a moment. I know you all want this thread to be strictly a support/concerns type of nature and I can respect that....but when you see a lot of posts from people saying that they have given up on sending their kid to waldorf because of this thread alone, then it becomes more than just a "support" thread, don't you think?

Now having a completely biased type of thread as this is okay when stated as so but having people stumble over here (as I did) and only getting one side of a story seems a bit unethical to me.

I'm sure most of you are all too delighted to steer people away from waldorf because of your experiences but again, is that presenting a fair picture of all sides, not just yours? Even though you may not have intended your thread to attract people trying to make a decision, it has, and I for one believe you therefore have the responsibility to present your experiences without exaggeration and a lot of bias as you have.

Here are a few other observations I've made here. First off, it would be more productive to have fewer posts with side conversations and unrelated banter. That way those looking to do research could more easily navigate through the thread. I know you made a table of contents but this is just a thought.

Secondly it is a bit misleading to see how many pages are here to then find many of the posts the aforementioned or the same one or two individuals bumping up the thread or stating a post count...again, making it harder to get to the "meat" of the thread when you don't have a lot of time. In fact, at glance it is awfully alarming to see such a lengthy thread about waldorf's shortcomings but again, there are a handful of the same people posting, not 40 different people with the same experiences. This also leads me to believe that the OP and some others seem to have more of an agenda than just using this thread for support purposes.

I hope you don't mind a little constructive criticism from a fairly objective newcomer.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That was so perfect, I have nothing more to add. I am speechless. Um, knowing me, that is HUGE!

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I hear you, pixiewytch. I hear that the emotional expression on this thread does not sit well with you. Feel free to not read it if that is what best serves you. And I mean that sincerely.

Again, I will state that there is no mention nor intention in this particular thread of any purpose of being "objective" or of being anything official with regard to Waldorf. We are simply human beings, first, who are also MDC members who are then sharing our opinions at MDC as are all the thousands upon thousands of the rest of us MDC members.

No thread discussing the subject of Waldorf education and Anthroposophy could possibly be "objective" as it would take a certain degree of experience in order for one to formulate their subjective opinions - as we're ALL sharing, here, with no one's opinion being more powerful than another's.

I believe that mentioning things such as your abortion-experience-sharing analogous scenario infers a "wrongness" about us freely expressing ourselves on this thread or elsewhere at MDC for that matter. Turned around, would you actually tell a woman sharing her negative abortion experience that she should set up a website and that this place "might not be the best place" to express herself?

Discussion boards, in general, have the universal effect of "influencing people's decisions" billions upon billions of times per day. That is the nature of "discussion" and communication.

Thanks for the suggestions but I am not interested in setting up a website nor in suppressing myself, here.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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[QUOTE Pixiewytch]...there are a handful of the same people posting, not 40 different people with the same experiences.[QUOTE]

Pixie:You stand corrected. I suggest you read the posts from each of these people and see just how many are people who endured negative Waldorf experiences.

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Old 05-24-2007, 11:52 PM
 
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Closing thread until I have had time to review numerous reported posts.

 
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Old 05-25-2007, 05:20 PM
 
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The thread is not permanently closed. I am seeking administrative guidance re: the thread, so please be patient as this is occurring! Thank you so much.

 
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:37 PM
 
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The thread is still under review. I appreciate your patience as we come to a resolution.

Lauren

 
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