A Safe, Healthy Haven: Waldorf Questioners/Concerns Thread - Page 9 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-17-2006, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by wisdomkeeper
Another funny thing we realized after naming our children, is that in the celtic horoscope (which uses trees), my husband's birthday is a Willow and mine is a Rowan! That kind of freaked me out when I discovered it one day. :-)
That is amazing!!!

I thought about Rowan for my newest son, Finn, but already had an aquaintance whose child has that name...my baby also just oozes "Finny-ness". He is huge like the Irish giant Finn MacCoul! 18 lbs at 15 weeks old... oy my achin' back! I am definitely an "attachment parenting martyr"...
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Old 05-18-2006, 01:59 AM
 
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I am so sorry for all of you taht you wne t though this stuff.
So before I read this thread I was all ready to order my Oak MEadows curriculum.... now I am confussed all over again. I love the Enki but it is too much money. <sigh>
I know I can tailor the homeschool program to my own wants but I hate to even look into a program that doesn't support breastfeeding. Is that silly of me?
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Old 05-18-2006, 02:09 AM
 
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I don't want to violate the spirit of this thread. I just want to impart to you that of any issues I have with Waldorf, lack of support for breastfeeding isn't one of them. On the contrary, in the mom and toddler class I attended, about half the moms were still nursing and we were given a comfortable chair to sit in. I realize that Steiner may have dogged extended nursing and some teachers may have feelings about it but, I've never found a school with a larger contingent of nursing moms (even through toddlerhood). I think this is OT in general but none of us want people making decisions based on issues that may not effect them, right?

Especially if you're homeschooling, I think you'd fare just fine.

That said, there's plenty of information here and elsewhere about the opposing philosophies of Steiner and AP...if I were homeschooling, I would be especially unswayed by that info. Like I said, being at a Waldorf school, that has never been an issue and I breastfed for a looooooong time. Don't get me wrong, I've got some issues but that's not one of them.
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Mijumom,

I'd like to add something, too, for clarity.

Steiner's statements and teachings on the evolution of the human spirit from folk/group/tribal consciousness to individual consciousness is supported in current Anthroposophical practice as being against breastfeeding, since it encourages tribal consciousness rather than individual consciousness in the baby being breastfed.

Regardless of what happens in a variety of Waldorf schools, a true Anthroposophist (who, as the Anthroposophical Society in North America/AWSNA, ultimately guide and are the final authority in any school using the now patented name "Waldorf") discourages breastfeeding. Period.

I think this "foundation" of thinking and practice in all Waldorf schools is ultimately what Apwannabe was referring to.

Thanks for not violating the "spirit of this thread", as you said. I appreciate that.

We are, after all, a support group IMO, not Steiner debate.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:01 PM
 
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I hope you will be open to what I am saying. If an individual looks over a curriculum and feels that it has value, I think that she will be able to use that curriculum without any issues regarding breastfeeding. I am NOT talking about teachers at a school but a homeschooler. I have no idea what the personal beliefs of most founders of non-waldorf educational philosophies and teachers are regarding breastfeeding and I think it is not a fundamental issue with regard to teaching a child. As I stated, I have been surrounded by avid breastfeeders who are more comfortable breastfeeding publicly at Waldorf schools than elsewhere. Now, this could be a testament to their lack of knowledge of Steiner's view on this or, more likely that they don't give a hoot what he thought and they feel supported in that environment. I've dealt with dogmatic teachers and they suck. I've also dealt with ignorant anti-breastfeeding folks elsewhere. Over-all, I have felt supported and respected on this issue at school. And, you're right, this is not a debate about Steiner more a discussion about if she can make the curriculum work for her. As a homeschooler, one is in the fortunate position of being able to craft the child's education and modify as needed. I think that should be do-able. That's my last 2 cents.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:42 PM
 
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Hi Apwannabe. I replied to your concerns about Waldorf's stance on breastfeeding in the new thread that Deborah started: breastfeeding and waldorf. So for anyone that wants to debate this issue further, I think we should head it over to new thread. :-)
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mijumom
I hope you will be open to what I am saying. If an individual looks over a curriculum and feels that it has value, I think that she will be able to use that curriculum without any issues regarding breastfeeding.
That's all fine, and I do see what you are saying, but she certainly also has a right not to support something that discourages breastfeeding, as anyone does. I don't shop Wal-Mart, even though I could save my family money, which is a positive thing in the short run.

I am always open to what people say, I just would personally like to maintain the original intention of this thread which is:

Support for those who have endured a negative Waldorf experience.

Thanks ,
Beth
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Old 05-19-2006, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by beansavi
I am always open to what people say, I just would personally like to maintain the original intention of this thread which is:

Support for those who have endured a negative Waldorf experience.

Thanks ,
Beth
Let me clarify: also for concerns and questions about what goes on in Waldorf schools.

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Old 05-19-2006, 12:27 PM
 
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I think if it is for questions it should be open to input that may not be in full agreement with your opinion. Or is it only questions that can be answered with a critical or negative take? I'm quite serious. I was trying to answer her question.

I am in complete support of you and your need for support here. I have many questions and concerns myself. I just don't think it's fair to invite questions and then censor the answers if they don't fit with your beliefs.

Again, maybe you can clarify this because I fully believe you have a right to have safe place to vent and get support and I certainly don't want to impinge on that. Questions will lead to a variety of answers. Are you sure you are comfortable with that? Or do you want to be the only one to answer to be sure this thread won't digress into disagreement?
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Old 05-19-2006, 02:06 PM
 
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I don't think Beth is trying to cesor, rather that one person's personal experience does not neccesarily represent Steiner or Waldorf philosophies as a whole. I think you'll find plenty of people who are happy, even thrilled with their local Waldorf school, who have had no bad experiences, or even on this breastfeeding issue have been supported through breastfeeding. But I think what Beth is attempting to do is to say that while you personally may have had a good experience with being supported in breastfeeding, the overall Steiner philospohy doesn't seem to support breastfeeding, and it may be one of the issues that people have a problem with. I don't think people are most likely going to choose/not choose a Waldorf school based on the breastfeeding issue.
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Old 05-19-2006, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Actually, Mijumom, I never said whether I was in agreement with the non-breastfeeding issue or not. What I did was to site where the anti-breastfeeding in Waldorf originates (Steiner) and how it is upheld to this day.

I also simply said that another poster had the right to decide not to choose a curriculum for her child's homeschooling based on the fact that it was fundementally anti-breastfeeding.

Since it has come up, I will say that, because of my and my son's abusive experiences in Waldorf, I really need this place. I am sometimes weak, and sometimes seeking support here in order to work through what has happened to us and to stay sane.

Because of this situation, I feel worrisome sometimes that when people who normally post on pro-Waldorf threads post here, defending an aspect of Waldorf Ed., that the discussion will digress into the same conversations that have gotten past anti-Waldorf threads on Mothering.com closed. This is my "issue", I admit.

I admit that I am extra protective of this environment, and that I have flaws.

However, because you have accused me of censoring, or even just having issues with someone who disagrees with me, I now feel my intuitions were right.

In the past it has been very "dangerous" around here to speak out like we have, because people jump in at any opportunity to try and discredit us. In my personal experience, I have seen time and time again the following scenario: Some people want to minimize the problems others bring up about Waldorf, and so they turn it around, making it a personal issue about the person who brought up the problem initially. Then, the discussion at hand gets side-tracked while the people defend themselves, hash things out, etc. I feel worried this may be what is happening, again, right now.

And so, I may be a bit gun-shy, due to my past experiences here and with Waldorf in general.

I don't even have to say this, but I will: Anyone who has seen my posts here, and all over the forums on Mothering, knows that I am none of what you have suggested.
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Old 05-19-2006, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Lousli
But I think what Beth is attempting to do is to say that while you personally may have had a good experience with being supported in breastfeeding, the overall Steiner philospohy doesn't seem to support breastfeeding, and it may be one of the issues that people have a problem with.
Okay, good. I'm glad that my point did get across as it was intended. Thanks, Lousli.
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Old 05-19-2006, 03:07 PM
 
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I feel really misundertood and judged myself. i have no agenda. I actually have a lot of issues and questions about Waldorf and I appreciate that you have created a thread where it is safe to be straightforward about the negative issues regarding Waldorf.

My point was that questions do lead to variations of opinions and I do think that it is very difficult to present a differing view of Waldorf without being labeled pro or anti Waldorf.

Maybe this thread wasn't the optimal place for that question. Or maybe it is up to the questioner to realize that this thread will not be one where she will find divergent views.

"I am always open to what people say, I just would personally like to maintain the original intention of this thread which is:

Support for those who have endured a negative Waldorf experience."

When I read this, it seemed clear to me that my input was construed as "un-supportive" and not negative enough for this thread. That is why I used the word censor. It is unclear to me what your tolerance is for disagreement on this thread.

I am so sorry that you feel I accused you of something or that I have made it any less safe for you here. I have learned a lot from your words and other people's negative experiences. I have been much more aware of what to look out for and have definitely seen evidence already of some of the issues you have described. I am not against you. I do not doubt your words or the validity of your experiences.

Maybe this thread should be limited to comments and not questions. I mean this with respect for how specific the purpose of the thread is.

Peace.
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Old 05-19-2006, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I disagree that this thread is doing anything in a limited way, or that it should be changed regarding format. It is a support group type of thread as stated in the original post where I covered guidelines and where I sought and got input from others on developing these guidelines.There is no problem with people being labelled as pro- or anti-Waldorf. Again, we are digressing and I, personally, would like that to stop.

There is no general problem here. We are doing quite well and should be commended.
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Old 05-19-2006, 03:33 PM
 
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Ok. Well, I don't think that the program she is looking at will necessarily be unsupportive of breastfeeding. Is that ok to say?

I think I have commended you numerous times for your efforts here. I just don't get why you are so defensive toward me when I'm not the enemy and I am not doing anything to you. I was trying to get clarification and make some suggestions to which you say in essence "no problem here"...this is your thread so I give up.
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Old 05-19-2006, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mijumom
Ok. Well, I don't think that the program she is looking at will necessarily be unsupportive of breastfeeding. Is that ok to say?

I think I have commended you numerous times for your efforts here. I just don't get why you are so defensive toward me when I'm not the enemy and I am not doing anything to you. I was trying to get clarification and make some suggestions to which you say in essence "no problem here"...this is your thread so I give up.
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. It is hard to read people's "tone" in a typed message, so we have to be really careful about that.

I never said your statement about the breastfeeding issue was bad or wrong. I simply chimed in with my two cents that it is okay for it to be an issue for someone else. I also made a statement about the fact that Waldorf practices the anti-breastfeeding lifestyle, not through various communities within their system, but by their actual doctrines and beliefs, rooted in Anthroposophy. But now I am repeating myself, so I apologize.

This whole scenario is what I am talking about. You assume I am intent on seeing bad in Waldorf, or whatever, and speak to me out of that assumption from the get-go. Please stop. I have no desire to argue with you about anything.

You can "give up" if you want to, but that statement in itself is a passive aggressive way to try and make me look overbearing.

And please read my siggy.
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Old 05-19-2006, 04:02 PM
 
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Last try as I love your siggy!!!! When you said-

"I am always open to what people say, I just would personally like to maintain the original intention of this thread which is:

Support for those who have endured a negative Waldorf experience."

I got the distinct sense that I was out of line giving my opinion here. I saw that you added-

"Let me clarify: also for concerns and questions about what goes on in Waldorf schools."

and then I really felt confused about how I can "maintain the original intention of this thread" and contribute to this discussion.

I am not making assumptions, I think you've made it clear that this thread is primarily for those who have had negative experiences. How a newcomers question gets handled on this thread is delicate.

I suppose I was being passive aggressive with my "give up" remark, I just don't see much progress here and I really have no beef with you so it is not worth me causing you more harm in an effort to prove something or hash it out...I'd rather not be a thorn in your side because I have nothing against you.
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Old 05-19-2006, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have to admit (and it just might be because of the day I'm having) that I really don't understand what the problem is in the first place. I don't have any "beef" with you, either, I promise. Have a happy "rest of your day".
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Old 05-19-2006, 07:47 PM
 
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Beansavi wrote: "I just discovered Enki, too. I have to look more thoroughly into it, but agree that is has the foundation of what I was drawn to in Waldorf without the dogma that ended up hurting us so much as a family. That is a very exciting prospect!"

Yes!

I'm a Waldorf educator who thinks Enki is equally wonderful! There are some things about Enki that I prefer over Waldorf, and vice versa. The multicultural peice is essential in today's world. Thankfully, many Waldorf teachers are with the times in a good way. Sadly, many are not.

I will say this just to plant the seed in case anyone here goes the Enki route--adapt some of the Enki stories if you have to for children who may not be ready for them. I tried a certain story called Stalking Wolf from the curriculum with my then 7 y.o. and it was far too intense. I stopped, reviewed the story again, edited, and made sure to follow through only on the aspects of the story he could process. Then it was GREAT. That's the thing...Enki/Waldorf or whatever...we cannot assume that every child the same age is in the same developmental place. The Enki founder, Beth Sutton acknowledges this and understands. There is no one size fits all education. I have found Steiner's indications on child development to be incredible, and true for many children, but NOT ALL.

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Old 05-19-2006, 09:08 PM
 
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It's all good. I'm sorry if I got too intense.

I think I might want to PM you about some issues we're having if you don't mind...

Let me know if that's ok.
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Old 05-20-2006, 11:30 AM
 
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Thanks for your input Browneyedgirl. I'm seriously looking into using Enki for Kindergarten this fall with my almost 6 year old.

How useful did you find Beth's suggestions for tailoring the K stuff to meet the needs of the 6 year old who is interested in letters, spelling, and the like?
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Old 05-23-2006, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, browneyedgirl for the info. Could you give an example of the "intensity" in the Stalking Wolf story?

I am curious as to whether it is intense like fairy tales, which some feel are only intense to the adults' mind, but not the child's since (according to Waldorf) children cannot visualize anything they have not literally witnessed (hence one reason for the no t.v. attitude in Waldorf), OR if it is just overall too much for some children regardless.

I remember needing the finality of the witch's getting pushed into the iron stove in Hansel and Gretel, and I did not create images of the details of what would happen to someone's body if that happened...in my mind she was "incinerated" (sp?) instantly, or like a piece of burnt toast.

This is not a big issue for me or anything... I am just curious.

Maybe you could direct us to some good Enki sites or discussions on MDC, too.

Thanks!
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Old 06-03-2006, 01:07 AM
 
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Hi Beanie it's time to have a party !

: : :Puke

                                Whatever will be, already is...
 
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Old 06-03-2006, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi Beanie it's time to have a party !

: : :Puke
You know I love to dance with veggies, girl! I think the Mamas on this thread especially deserve a party!



:
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Old 06-03-2006, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh I get it, BelovedK! Your smilies are a sequence of events! Here's to NOT getting to the point of hugging the porcelain goddess...

Here's a pah-tay for post-Waldorf Mamas tired of think' too much. This thread requires zero brain cells!:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=460595
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:53 PM
 
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[QUOTE=beansavi]Oh I get it, BelovedK! Your smilies are a sequence of events! Here's to NOT getting to the point of hugging the porcelain goddess...

:

                                Whatever will be, already is...
 
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:57 PM
 
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Great thread beansavi....you are right about the 'produce' check out the 'jumpers' smilie...stare at it a while :

OK, now back to topic....... (my bad)

                                Whatever will be, already is...
 
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:58 PM
 
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Hey, where did my reply go?

                                Whatever will be, already is...
 
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BelovedK
Hey, where did my reply go?

Oh, there it is, now...back to topic (bye now )

                                Whatever will be, already is...
 
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Old 06-03-2006, 09:01 PM
 
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OT again but, I JUST HIT 3000 posts :

                                Whatever will be, already is...
 
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