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Old 04-29-2008, 09:23 AM
 
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It's certainly fascinating. I mean, it's possible isn't it, for parents and children to go through the entire Steiner experience, never having touched any of this?
And to come out the other end fine.
I know a few Steiner educated kids just like that. They did struggle though , in real life studying and work situations for a while, it took time for them to catch up.
But after all, while we've had a very hard time, we did origionally chose Steiner for the reasons you probably did.
But it's all still hidden for you.
Where the problems arise, are when ther there questions fom parents, about choices that have been made for their kids which don't seem right/sensible/kind.
Or when there is a teacher who has grasped various aspects of the anthroposophical training they get, but not used it correctly.
Because they aren't supposed to let it show, the anthroposophical stuff.

But IMO they HAVE to let it be known that the anthroposophy is the main drive in the curriculum.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:41 AM
 
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The other thing which is strange, is that Steiner waldorf supporters often say it's entirely the parent's responsibility to find out about the education , not for the schools to talk about anthroposphy, or Steiner's beliefs etc.
Yet, in reality, there seem to be very few parents who actually have read Steiner, or know very much about what he actually belied atall.
The implication being that they have just taken on board what the schools or Steiner promoting websites have told them. The selected material for general perusal. Selected quotes and passages about anthroposphy. In fact, precisely what the defenders accuse critics of doing. Curious.

This is interesting though, the quote from Australia, perhaps it will mean the schools elswhere will ahve to be transparent too

""The review called for the school to be transparent about its
curriculum and provide parents with more information about how it is
taught."
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:37 AM
 
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It's certainly fascinating. I mean, it's possible isn't it, for parents and children to go through the entire Steiner experience, never having touched any of this?
And to come out the other end fine......
And so far that is happening for us and our children. It is only when things go terribly wrong that one looks for answers.

I mean lets look at the current state system and I will give you one example -My friends child was forced out of school 6 months before she was due to finish year 6. She was bullied by a group of girls who were relentless in their victimisation, very nasty. The headmaster actually changed sides when it became apparent that the bullies parents were all on the PTA. So what was the parent supposed to do - continue on and fingers crossed the kids may stop (doubtful, the bullies parents even rounded on the mother) or move her child? She moved her to another state school. (hey sshey an outsider )

What would you do?

I could go on with other horror stories but because state education is the majority, it gets swamped and swallowed up, hidden, covered never to see light of day. One only has to read the education section on mumsnet to see what I mean!

I have chosen Steiner because it works for my children, they are learning, they are creative (an area that was untapped in state school, frankly they dont touch on these subjects because it is all geared towards literacy, numeracy and tests), they are confident, they are caring. State school failed 100% in all of these areas!
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:49 AM
 
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The other thing which is strange, is that Steiner waldorf supporters often say it's entirely the parent's responsibility to find out about the education , not for the schools to talk about anthroposphy, or Steiner's beliefs etc.
I tend to agree, maybe they should explain more but where would it start and end, your expectation will be different to another dissatified parent? You said it yourself theres a lot to cover. And I repeat, I still have no idea what the ultimate goal is supposed to be that you seem to know but are unwilling to tell us.

(I do wonder how many non steiner parents are aware of what really is expected when it comes to their childs state education. What is explained to them from the early years stages upto reception, lower school and then secondary?...but then I suppose because tens of thousands have tread the path before, it must be OK!)
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:14 PM
 
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Have to fetch kids, but that last bit.. errh, is it me?

I jut wrote this, you must have missed it.

The goal is to be an elite spiritual group who can lead everyone else when the war of wars has happened , and we're communicating spiritually.



"As much as I understand anthroposophists, (and as you realise, people do not readily come forward to say that they actually ARE,) they hold the belief that all humans can be directed and helped towards clairvoyant communication and vision, and could communicate with the spirit world (which obviously they believe is "real" and "scientific" ).
The teacher's task is to help the children incarnate into this world from the spirit world they have recently emerged, and to guide the childen's souls towards their next incarnation.The teachers "sacred task" direct kids' attention away from the “apparent world” to the many concealed “levels of truth” in order to empower the human soul. Teachers are also on their own "spiritual path".
(There is a quote which says the schools were set up purely for Manu to be able to incarnate.)
The belief is that man incarnates in sucsessive lives, and a spiritually and racially advanced group progress into the next "era" while the majority of "materialistic" "evil" races decline.
He does distinguish between "soul" and "race" developpment however, by saying a soul can incarnate in any skin, the body is mantle in other words.
Individual souls are karmically responsible for their own journey, up or down the spiritual ladder, by being immersed in "occult science" or anthroposphy.
The advanced group, are those who have occult spiritual knowledge, and they will recognise each other when the time comes.
"“the souls now living in bodies which have the heart to hear and feel Anthroposophy” will survive the coming "War of All against All and pass onward to a new spiritual era" In this future age, “upon the forehead and in the whole physiognomy it will be written whether the person is good or evil. He will show in his face what is contained in his inmost soul.”

In The Universal Human, he writes his vision of the ultimate goal of human evolution, he writes that the cosmic goal behind "“the meaning of
our whole earthly evolution" and end up with a“uniform, perfect, beautiful
type of human being”

There are many quotes from Steiner as to the task and goal of anthroposophists, to spread the word as it were

"The aim of the Sixth epoch of humanity will be to popularise occult truth in the widest circles; that is the mission of that epoch"

"So a certain group of people must join together in order to prepare the future."

"There is no other means of bringing about a universal human brotherhood than the spreading of occult knowledge through the world. "

"So you see, the Spiritual Movement has a quite definite goal, namely, to mould future humanity in advance."

"It is the deeper task of the anthroposophical movement to enable a number of human beings to enter their next incarnation with an I each remembers as his or her own, individual I....These individuals will be scattered over the earth, and thus everywhere on earth there will be a core group of people who will be crucial for the sixth epoch of civilization. "
"Those, however, who do not develop their individual I will be dependent on joining a group that will instruct them in what they should think, feel, will and do. "

I hope this makes sense, alot of Steiner is quite garbled ans contradictary.

In a nutshell, I would say that those who are immersed in spiritual science, or anthroposophy, who are given the opportunity within the schools to have this part of them "awakened", may go on to the path of anthroposophic spiritual learning , which will eventually, when the "war of all wars" takes place, and save humanity, because they spiritually prepared, while the rest of us will be instructed what to "think feel will and do"

I'd be interested to hear the views of anthroposophists on this, because they are usually extrmely reluctant to be forthcoming. Based on Steiner's writing, this is what I "think" the anthroposophists ultimate goal and belief is, but I could be wrong, so am happy to be put rught by those who have had such long experience of it."
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:42 PM
 
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The other thing which is strange, is that Steiner waldorf supporters often say it's entirely the parent's responsibility to find out about the education , not for the schools to talk about anthroposphy, or Steiner's beliefs etc.
Yet, in reality, there seem to be very few parents who actually have read Steiner, or know very much about what he actually belied atall.
The implication being that they have just taken on board what the schools or Steiner promoting websites have told them. The selected material for general perusal. Selected quotes and passages about anthroposphy. In fact, precisely what the defenders accuse critics of doing. Curious.
I take issue with this especially as in terms of this thread I am a supporter and I do believe that parents ought to find out what they are committing to and I have said this already.
I take issue with the implication that most parents that accept are doing so because they just don't know or understand what they are signing up for.

It sounds to me like you believe firstly that most parents are ignorant about Steiner's beliefs and that secondly they are accepting of a philosophy solely based on positive promotional materials they happen to have encountered. Is that correct?

I think that really discredits those of us who are comfortable in Steiner's beliefs and Waldorf education as a whole. Not all of us are walking around ignorant and just waiting for the day we will be enlightened and able to break free. Many DO have have positive experiences at our Steiner schools and know what we are a part of.

I still stand by my belief that it is up to parents to find out what they are joining.

Also, you are saying that anthroposophists are less than forthcoming. Is that in terms of responses on this board? I ask because this board has very few anthroposophists on it. It is populated by parents, mostly of young children (though there are exceptions), and many are not even a part of a Waldorf school. There are those that home school in the Waldorf tradition, those that are just starting toddler group, those that are curious plus others. For the most part there just aren't many anthroposophists on here. It's not a conspiracy to hide from the questions, just that there aren't many here to answer.
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:34 PM
 
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I respect the fact that you know what you're in and you accept it. And I'm glad it's right for you.
The anthroposophists at the school where our kids were would never talk about the reincarnation aspects. They would never talk about Steiner's writing, even if I had the book in my hand, they just skimmed over, said it was so difficult, or said they only picked what they wanted.
On a thread running at the moment in UK, a teacher talks of the problem of educating parents, and teachers from Emerson college here have said they were told to be evasive and direct towards the creative things. So, as far as I'm concerned, that's proof.

Some people on this discussion have more to do with promoting Steiner Waldorf, as they have co written websites etc, so must know more about anthroposophy than a newish parent, but they don't discuss this.

Other people I've discussed this with, and most of the parents at the school my kids were , at other schools in UK , don't know much, if anything about Steiner's writing.
Pippilongstcking doesn't seem to - i amy be wrong because the question about ever having read Steiner wasn't answered.

Linda, "proof"?
I'm participating in this conversation, and was looking forward to your views on the things I'd written about Steiner, and the task of anthroposphists.
I found it strange that a question asking whether anyone was an anthroposophist could have aroused such a reaction, as in UK the same question has prompted an interesting debate.

It isn't a confrontation, only by those who make it into one.

Pippilongstocking and I have agreed on some points even!

Is the interpretation I have given about Steiner's goal for the spiritual movement about right? I would really appreciate an expert's comments.

How can a discussion move forward, if people don't discuss?

And if it isn't discussed, people will continue to say it isn't open.

The question at the start of the thread has implications to begin with, in that there are things not being told wouldn't you say?
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:44 PM
 
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In reply to your post 127, about the state of (state!) schools.
I agree, there is bad stuff in state schools. (WE CHOSE STEINER!)

The bullying in the Steiner school , however, was worse than any I had ever heard of, and was ignored 90% of the time, or blamed on those who "attracted" it, or left.

Many people chose Steiner because of what they aren't, and go along with whatever strange stuff comes.
I think it's wrong though, that you aren't informed, prior to going, even if you're happy and don't mind that your child is bein directed towards spirituality subliminally.

You say it's only when it goes wrong that one looks for answers, that is one explanation.In our case, it began to go wrong WHEN we found answers, when we read stuff we found disturbing which we hadn't been told about, and asked questions. It wasn't liked, the teachers were the ones who "knew" what was right, and answering questions wasn't on their agenda.

Anyway, I daresay this thread will be closed, because it's been made "contentious".

I thought it was an intresting discussion.

Don't you ever mention other discussions on other boards?
Is it a crime?
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:48 PM
 
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Fair enough. The idea of grouping together any group into a category of what "those people" are like is bigoted and ignorant. You said (well ... typed )

.........

I know little to nothing about Waldorf. I'm here just trying to read and learn. Just saw that comment and thought, "What an inaccurate comment to make and what an unfair generalization." So I fired one back about agnostics that was just as silly to prove a point, which seemed to get missed.

Matt
Okay, well, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself bigoted. I made my generalization based on personal experience with a Christian school and many Christian churches, and personal research.
But everyone's experience is unique, and my statement was a little broad.


Anyway, back to the thread...
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:13 PM
 
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Nolimum, there are schools in Uk which are state community schools, and happen to have a group of evangelical born again Christians on the staff.
They said many things to the children which imo were inappropriate.
As Pippilongstocking says, we don't really know what little( or big0 things atre said to our kids about faith, belief, god or whatever, to very suceptible kids.
I think we should be like france, where church and state are separate.
It is such a personal, family subject.
So- back to the personal family subject of what Steiner Waldorf should tell parents..BEFORE they enroll their kids and dish out bucketloads of dosh.
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:38 PM
 
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i just want to say that as a prospective parent I really appreciate the posts on this thread that gave good questions to ask. If there are things I am not being told about i would like to at least be aware that i may not be told about these things so I can ask directly and then feel out the response and decide for myself if something is vague or at least know what to look out for in the future, assuming DD ends up at a Waldorf grade school.

I think some of the responses on this thread have been from people who are happy with their situation and are aware that others may not be and can give insight as to what others may not be happy with.

Honestly if you dont like the public school system in your area and you want to send your kids to private school you are sort of limited in the non religious aspect. I am Jewish and I went to catholic school most of my life! I knew I was going there for the academics and sort of censored out the jesus talk and prayer.

I also want to say that being non religious (jewish as a nationality not religion) I have found that Waldorf gives me a way to be spiritual and bring the things i see positive about religion into our lives such as blessings mostly to or about nature, peace, meditation or just staying in the moment.


SO a bit off topic (As usual for me i guess haha)
but i just wanted to say that I appreciate the heads up about certain things that may be "hidden" from me.
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:57 PM
 
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Bluetrain I will try to reply to each of your points that you made
In reply to your post 127, about the state of (state!) schools.
I agree, there is bad stuff in state schools. (WE CHOSE STEINER!)

Did you research any of Steiner before enrolling your children?

The bullying in the Steiner school , however, was worse than any I had ever heard of, and was ignored 90% of the time, or blamed on those who "attracted" it, or left.

You make it sound like it is happening in every steiner school and the truth is that it isn't. I think it is grossly unfair that you give this false impression to non steiner folk.

Many people chose Steiner because of what they aren't, and go along with whatever strange stuff comes.

Well I have chosen it for all of the right reasons so far. You are putting words into my mouth. I doubt you can speak for everyone who has chosen this system really.

I think it's wrong though, that you aren't informed, prior to going, even if you're happy and don't mind that your child is bein directed towards spirituality subliminally.

Well this one is a little more difficlt to answer because yes I agree that it needs to be more open yet having read about Steiner before enrollment, I was aware of a spiritual aspect to the school, although I don't believe we are allowing our children to get educated as spiritualists or crystal ball readers...I really don't?

You say it's only when it goes wrong that one looks for answers, that is one explanation.In our case, it began to go wrong WHEN we found answers, when we read stuff we found disturbing which we hadn't been told about, and asked questions. It wasn't liked, the teachers were the ones who "knew" what was right, and answering questions wasn't on their agenda.

Could it be that your teacher didn't know about the content of that book that you read, effectively you had put them on the spot? And they may have felt as uncomfortable as you did?

Anyway, I daresay this thread will be closed, because it's been made "contentious".

Lets hope not?
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:17 PM
 
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i just want to say that as a prospective parent I really appreciate the posts on this thread that gave good questions to ask. If there are things I am not being told about i would like to at least be aware that i may not be told about these things so I can ask directly and then feel out the response and decide for myself if something is vague or at least know what to look out for in the future, assuming DD ends up at a Waldorf grade school.

I think some of the responses on this thread have been from people who are happy with their situation and are aware that others may not be and can give insight as to what others may not be happy with.

Honestly if you dont like the public school system in your area and you want to send your kids to private school you are sort of limited in the non religious aspect. I am Jewish and I went to catholic school most of my life! I knew I was going there for the academics and sort of censored out the jesus talk and prayer.

I also want to say that being non religious (jewish as a nationality not religion) I have found that Waldorf gives me a way to be spiritual and bring the things i see positive about religion into our lives such as blessings mostly to or about nature, peace, meditation or just staying in the moment.


SO a bit off topic (As usual for me i guess haha)
but i just wanted to say that I appreciate the heads up about certain things that may be "hidden" from me.
Fabulous post - thankyou.
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:20 PM
 
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Bluetrain - dinners on the table.

To bold/italic etc...look above the grey box and you will see icons similar to a word doc.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:14 PM
 
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Bluetrain - My reasons for choosing steiner education was because

1, It is not a pressurised hoop jumping environment.
2, Children are allowed to be children.
3, There is a more creative aspect to the curriculum.
4, The children are taught by a teacher who stands at the front of the class and teaches them as one.
5, The parents are expected to participate and the majority are actively involved.
6, The children dont work from photocopied worksheets.
7, The children are treated as individuals.
8, The teacher spends longer than 10 minutes with the parent when discussing your childs development/education.
9, There are regular Parent/Teacher evenings, where we can all discuss the children.
10, The teacher actually knows your child. (state school don't)

What I meant about being more open - I suppose having read this forum and others, that it does look like some schools don't explain about Steiner and the relation to anthroposophy, which I think is your bugbear and quite rightly so, seeing as you had a bad experience. But as I said earlier, I am unsure about how much info can be included without it confusing the parent even more. I know I took the plunge and never thought to read any of Steiners works ( I read about Steiner pro & anti) but in the same token, the school appealed to me and thats about all I can say on that for the moment.

Obviously I am taking about the lower classes here and will add my reasons for kindergarten in a minute.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:43 PM
 
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For kindergarten -

My ds2 was and (to a point) still is a child who struggles to take information in. He wasn't interested in ABC, 123, sit down and read words etc. He loves to learn through play, make a mess and be generally a little child without any pressure put on him - that is his way of learning.

1, The kindergarten teacher spends time with each child.
2, There is a set routine. (bread day, soup day, fruit day etc) they helped to make the food.
3, Lots of indoor and outdoor play.
4, They had daily walks.
5, There was a quiet time at the end of session.
6, Parent/teacher evenings to discuss our childrens development stages.
7, Lots of singing.
8, One to one parent/teacher meetings (longer than the states 10 mins)
9, The teacher knows your child very well.
10, Their birthdays are treated as a very special day. (My son used to love hearing his life being told to the rest of the children.)
11, They make things like toys, candles.
12, Each child at the end of their time in kindergarten is made to feel special and it was celebrated.

I knew that he would have been lost had he started his early years in a state school, stuck around little circular tables, labelled and working from photocopied worksheets. (I had already experienced this with my other son) I know he would have switched off.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:47 PM
 
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I think yukookoo has summed it up very well -

I have found that Waldorf gives me a way to be spiritual and bring the things i see positive about religion into our lives such as blessings mostly to or about nature, peace, meditation or just staying in the moment.
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Old 04-29-2008, 05:31 PM
 
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I would REALLY value a response to the p[iece i wrote about what anthroposophists see as their goal, about the spiritual progression, and the elite group who have been awakened to occult science, spiritual science, anthroposphy, whatever you want to call it, who will recognise each other in future eras, when spiriual beings will manifest.
It's a poor synopsis of what Steiner wrote.
It seems to be the central theme of the belief.
But I may be wrong.
I'd really be interested in a response, that's all.
I cant answer any of that because and I truely believe this, most parents don't put their children through Steiner for the above reasons.
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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Bluetrain, since your post touches a bit on my comment to the thread earlier, I'm going to entertain this one.

It is a bit awkward going into the whole fundraising and volunteer work aspect of Waldorf. In fact, DH complains about it all the time and I tend to feel like we don't do enough because we just don't have the time.

Well, I see a couple of things here. First of all, ppl are used to public school where all is paid for so to speak and there isn't exactly a sense of community or intimacy. It's not like the school has to beg a parent to build a fence or buy some new garden hoses. I think it can be a culture shock and hard to wrap one's mind around that, especially when paying so much for tuition already....people don't realize sometimes though that it costs a lot to run a school, especially if you are going to have good teachers and art programs, all of the things that are lacking in public school. That is one side of it to consider.

However, I do see this as being flawed with the mention of parents working long hours for the school to fund their child's tuition. I believe the fundamental problem here is the fact that waldorf schools are private...so you have parents with plenty of money who don't have to volunteer or can pay for their volunteer hours and then you have people willing to do whatever it takes to pay for their kids' tuition. Mix that with some people who maybe take advantage of that and treat those struggling to get by poorly and things do get ugly....

I think the ideal is sort of like an intentional community where everybody helps out to build a house or grow a garden or run a store for example. That model seems to work well when everyone has an even economic playing field but when you are dealing with the haves and have nots (sort of like the rest of our culture and society in general) then this model doesn't always work so well. Maybe that is where Waldorf sometimes falls short in this area and leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

For instance, we received a letter around the holidays about donating money to the school. Then when I didn't donate (I was having real hard times financially with the holidays and birthdays all in a row) I received a follow up letter noting that I had not donated and would I go ahead and make a donation, all of this signed and sealed by the head of the board who probably makes more money than I will ever dream of....so yes, that really bothered me. We do have a full paid scholarship at this point but if we didn't have it we couldn't afford to send our kids there.

Now if I'm not mistaken, many Waldorf schools in Europe are publicly funded, no? I am curious as to how these issues are dealt with there or do they even have volunteering/fundraising complaints?
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:26 PM
 
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Excellent post Pixie - Summed up very well.

Nearly all Steiner schools in the UK are privately funded, I know of one which is state funded. I have mixed feelings about this as

1, yes it would be nice to inject more cash into them.
2, children (poor families who cannot afford the fees) could be offered a place.

But - I am not so sure it would then incur the wrath of the governments input which could take the education on a different path. (photocopied worksheets & endless form filling, jumping hoops, tests etc kind of raises my hackles up)

As I say mixed feelings on this.
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:29 PM
 
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Pixiewytch, you see, I think that's terrible.
And first NO , in Uk the schools are private, though some are means tested, at ours you paid a percentage of your income, but obviously, you needed time to make th income!
There is controersy at the moment, because one school has just gained academy status, which means the steiner waldorf fellowship will pay something like one million pound donation, amd the government, state will fund the rest of the io million,. So it is basically the first state funded steiner school in uk.
But in Swede, i think norway and Germany, theyb are state funded,yes.
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:32 PM
 
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I can't make you out pippilongstocking, because you seem to be playing a game your self here.
Opposition, tactics, it's not a WAR is it? Because it certainly seems that's what you think.

We are taliking about the things the schools should tell prospective parents, yes?
You agree they don't say enough?
You've never actually read Steiner, but were "informed" before you went to the schools.
But the main thing is, aprt from thinking you should have known more, but I''m not sure what more you mean, you're happy.
Your kids are happy
And that's the main thing.

My views are different, for different reasons, maybe because I read quite alot of Steiner, questioned the school about why they were using one man's clairvoyant visions to make decisions aboutr my kids, and it didn't make me happy.
Hang on a minute you said that the UK thread was fast paced, witty etc. It doesn't have any of the oppostion to counter balance the debate. You all shooed them off the thread. I think its a poor debate over there because you do not have anyone from the pro side. Thus how can it be fast paced and witty?

As for the tactics - you had posted earlier this morning on both the UK & US thread and the UK thread knew about the US but the US didn't know about the UK? I don't see fair play here!:

You don't understand me because I don't come across as the 'sterotypical' Steiner parent!
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:33 PM
 
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Excellent post Pixie - Summed up very well.

Nearly all Steiner schools in the UK are privately funded, I know of one which is state funded. I have mixed feelings about this as

1, yes it would be nice to inject more cash into them.
2, children (poor families who cannot afford the fees) could be offered a place.

But - I am not so sure it would then incur the wrath of the governments input which could take the education on a different path. (photocopied worksheets & endless form filling, jumping hoops, tests etc kind of raises my hackles up)

As I say mixed feelings on this.
See, that's what I was thinking too....a bit of a trade off. Either you get pure waldorf private or watered down waldorf paid for by the government. Then again, I'm guessing that even public education in Europe is probably better than what we have here right now.
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:38 PM
 
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See, that's what I was thinking too....a bit of a trade off. Either you get pure waldorf private or watered down waldorf paid for by the government. Then again, I'm guessing that even public education in Europe is probably better than what we have here right now.

Are you a US based parent?
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:46 PM
 
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Yes Pippi, I live in the U.S and here in Florida anyway, the entire public school curriculum is taught around a standardized test. Then money is awarded to the schools who score the highest. I know teachers who say they can't teach anything all year because they are preparing for this test and fear for their jobs and I have nieces and nephews in the grades having nightmares and panic attacks over it.

I'm not sure how that compares to Europe or the U.K.
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:00 PM
 
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Pixie - I believe that the education system is similar here. But it does change like the wind!

Whats gets my goats is that if I am not happy with the current education system (that I am paying some of my taxes for) I either have to put up and shut up or move.

I want what I consider to be the very best for my children, get the best out of them, bring them up to be decent people and to be able to communicate with anyone on any level. Steiner education is fulfilling that role 100% and at the moment we are very happy but most importantly my children are happy.

I guess we have a very decent school, the teachers are committed to the children, we are committed to the school, the children are committed to learning. I can't say fairer than that!
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:32 PM
 
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Nolimum - sorry I missed your post - don't stop posting because your input is just as valid as anyone elses.(although I do understand if you choose not too!)

Anyway chaps and chapesses, I have to go to bed (time zone) hopefully speak tomorrow - goodnight all - is it still daylight where you lot are? grr!
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