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#361 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by julielenore
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The parents belive in long hair and dresses. I don't think that the children would be allowed to dress differently if they wanted.
And it is hard to go see a punk concert or skateboard (like some teens rebel) if you are dressed like Jinger.

AngelBee:"The children may believe that as well.

You know, not all teens want to rebel, have sex, drink, and do drugs. "

I am not saying that they should be doing drugs and having sex, i am saying that the children should at least be allowed to wear the clothing that they want. They should at least have SOME choices in theri life. Did you see in the show, that if they went on an outing they all had to wear red? I would be embarrassed at MY age doing that, and I am not a teenager.
I have a hard time believing that the children WAnT to dress that way.
I do understand what you are saying.

I just think that being raised in the environment that they are changes things. All of the people they are close to hold the same beliefs. They would probably not feel comfortable dressed differently. It is all that they really know.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#362 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
I think the point is, teenagers need to explore who they are and be able to dream big dreams that don't necessarily relate to their *parent's* big dreams.

They don't need to rebel, most of my teenagers haven't rebelled, but, then again, if I'm not provoking them with really-really-really hideous bangs and nasty clothing, what do they need to rebel against?!

y'know the stuff that requires a *college* education and some breathing room.

DB
I am having a hard time reading your posts open mindedly because I feel that you are being snarky.

Please correct me if I am wrong. :

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#363 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pynki

It's not natural for them to be raised in this way. Children are SUPPOSED to distance themselves from their parents to help establish who they are as people. If they are never allowed to do this they are not going to grow into the adults they are supposed to be. They are being psychologically stunted.
If you step back and apply a bit of cultural relativism...

There is nothing un-natural in the way the Duggars are raising their children. In many societies, probably most, it is perfectly normal for children to leave the parental home only when getting married--or maybe not even then. American neolocal residence patterns for a young married couple--and moreso for singles--is actually rather distinctively different from how most of the world lives their lives.

To say someone else's cultural patterns are not natural is incredibly ethnocentric.

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#364 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Alana
I can see that...and agree...but also think there are other ways to get that. When our dc are young teens, we are going to travel with them, to other countries, to help out in areas help is needed. We want our dc to see, to experience, to talk to other people and see how they live...so that our dc have a broader worldview.

Dh and I have taken a very different route than most people...but I am definitely my own person...as is dh. We know who we are, what we are doing, where we are going....and we didnt need college to do that. My dh used to suffer from extreme social anxiety, he couldnt even walk through the mall....now he is able to stand up in front of a few hundred people, give a speech, and get a standing ovation.
I totally agree.

This is the kind of stuff we plan to do as well.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#365 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:03 PM
 
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So... the only people that can be happy are those that are rich and live in their happy little subdivisions and support corporate America???? Being happy is not based on finances or career.
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#366 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ravin
If you step back and apply a bit of cultural relativism...

There is nothing un-natural in the way the Duggars are raising their children. In many societies, probably most, it is perfectly normal for children to leave the parental home only when getting married--or maybe not even then. American neolocal residence patterns for a young married couple--and moreso for singles--is actually rather distinctively different from how most of the world lives their lives.

To say someone else's cultural patterns are not natural is incredibly ethnocentric.
This is what I was thinking (Well......minus the big words )

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#367 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:03 PM
 
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So... the only people that can be happy are those that are rich and live in their happy little subdivisions and support corporate America???? Being happy is not based on finances or career.
Apparently....and those with a college degree.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#368 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:06 PM
 
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If you step back and apply a bit of cultural relativism...

There is nothing un-natural in the way the Duggars are raising their children. In many societies, probably most, it is perfectly normal for children to leave the parental home only when getting married--or maybe not even then. American neolocal residence patterns for a young married couple--and moreso for singles--is actually rather distinctively different from how most of the world lives their lives.

To say someone else's cultural patterns are not natural is incredibly ethnocentric.
That is very true. We attend a very cultural Church, and that is pretty normal there. And sometimes Im actually jealous, because once a week or more, the whole family gets together, and there is a whole big extended family to support and help each other. And its not uncommon for a few generations to live together. I think the whole American mindset about "having to be an individual" is a bit overblown...we strive for interdependence in our family.
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AngelBee...I don't understand how you can be Christian and not liberal. That is one thing I don't understand in this America.

But that's a whole other thread.
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#370 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:07 PM
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Why are you so hostile about college degrees?

If you read my postings here at MDC, I am not a typical yuppie living in a mcmansion.

Talk about snarkey, Angelbee, you're being pretty snarkey yourself.

DB
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#371 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by redwolf2
So... the only people that can be happy are those that are rich and live in their happy little subdivisions and support corporate America???? Being happy is not based on finances or career.
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#372 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:09 PM
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Call me ethnocentric, but I highly value individual choice.

To raise girls to do housework and breed is patriarchal.

Never allowing her to consciously choose her destiny is, well, wrong.

But, of course, I'm ethnocentric.

db
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#373 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:09 PM
 
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AngelBee...I don't understand how you can be Christian and not liberal. That is one thing I don't understand in this America.

But that's a whole other thread.
I am not the same as the mamas who call themselves liberals here.

I am a conservative independant.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#374 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
Why are you so hostile about college degrees?

If you read my postings here at MDC, I am not a typical yuppie living in a mcmansion.

Talk about snarkey, Angelbee, you're being pretty snarkey yourself.

DB
Yes, I am feeling a bit snarky. :

Please forgive me for that.

I just get so frustrated when I feel like people are not really discussing just slinging mud at ideas different then their own. There is no real desire to understand the Duggars.....even if you disagree. Just poke fun of them.

It reminds me of the playground in elementry school.....I just do not get it.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#375 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
Call me ethnocentric, but I highly value individual choice.

To raise girls to do housework and breed is patriarchal.

Never allowing her to consciously choose her destiny is, well, wrong.

But, of course, I'm ethnocentric.

db
I am all about choosing God's destiny for my life, not my own.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#376 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee

I just get so frustrated when I feel like people are not really discussing just slinging mud at ideas different then their own. There is no real desire to understand the Duggars.....even if you disagree. Just poke fun of them.

It reminds me of the playground in elementry school.....I just do not get it.
I hope you don't think I was making fun of their clothes. To me, it is not so much the clothes as it is about choice.
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#377 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:18 PM
 
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Interesting thread.

I just wanted to add another view. When husband and I watched this show he said it was like looking at old pictures of me. That’s right I could be Jinger, I looked just like her at that age. I had the long hair and skirts; I looked after lots of siblings. (Not that many, my mom only had seven kids.) Discipline in our home was biblical. I was educated by the church we went to and did little association with the outside world.

We didn’t have a TV and internet was not invented yet so you would think I had no idea about the outside world. Yes I missed out on a lot of pop culture, but I knew what the world was. I went to malls and stores. I read the papers. I was sheltered but I wasn’t clueless. Yes I was raised in an environment of male superiority, no doubt about that, however I never believed it. I was ALWAYS a feminist. I had a mind and I used it.

When I turned eighteen I left, I rejected the bible and this lifestyle completely. I do have issues with my childhood but you know what? I’m fine. I had a pretty happy childhood and I walked away from it healthy and whole.

My childhood has given me an interesting perspective to view the world with. It’s a part of who I am, and I like who I am. It did turn me off Christianity completely and organized religion in general, and I have rejected nearly every value it tried to give me.

I understand there are a lot of factors here. This is just my story and others I grew up with all came out a little different then me. True a strong mind and great (if misguided) parents helped me along. Let’s not assume these children can’t possibly be ok. Only time can tell us that. I watched that show as an escapee of that lifestyle and I don’t find it disturbing at all. Those kids will be like all kids, some will conform and some won’t. Being born to that is not a life sentence and believe it or not it’s not that bad. I never needed therapy anyway.

Oh and one more thing, we had to look like that for religious reasons. No matter what work those girls are doing they can’t put on “safer clothing”. I don’t know if that was made clear.
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#378 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by julielenore
I hope you don't think I was making fun of their clothes. To me, it is not so much the clothes as it is about choice.
No, I understand what you were saying.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#379 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Yes, I am feeling a bit snarky. :

Please forgive me for that.

I just get so frustrated when I feel like people are not really discussing just slinging mud at ideas different then their own. There is no real desire to understand the Duggars.....even if you disagree. Just poke fun of them.

It reminds me of the playground in elementry school.....I just do not get it.
I don't have problems with what the parents chose to do. That's their choice. When they force their children to follow their choices is when I have a problem. When it becomes sexist and oppressive, I have a problem. When it becomes abuse, I have a problem. I'm not making fun of anybody because they have different ideas from me.

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#380 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:25 PM
 
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I don't have problems with what the parents chose to do. That's their choice. When they force their children to follow their choices is when I have a problem. When it becomes sexist and oppressive, I have a problem. When it becomes abuse, I have a problem. I'm not making fun of anybody because they have different ideas from me.
Abuse is a problem for me as well.

Children do not have the same say as adults in my world. They do not have the life experience or wisdom.

Sexist and oppressive is a matter of opinion.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#381 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:26 PM
 
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Interesting thread.

I just wanted to add another view. When husband and I watched this show he said it was like looking at old pictures of me. That’s right I could be Jinger, I looked just like her at that age. I had the long hair and skirts; I looked after lots of siblings. (Not that many, my mom only had seven kids.) Discipline in our home was biblical. I was educated by the church we went to and did little association with the outside world.

We didn’t have a TV and internet was not invented yet so you would think I had no idea about the outside world. Yes I missed out on a lot of pop culture, but I knew what the world was. I went to malls and stores. I read the papers. I was sheltered but I wasn’t clueless. Yes I was raised in an environment of male superiority, no doubt about that, however I never believed it. I was ALWAYS a feminist. I had a mind and I used it.

When I turned eighteen I left, I rejected the bible and this lifestyle completely. I do have issues with my childhood but you know what? I’m fine. I had a pretty happy childhood and I walked away from it healthy and whole.

My childhood has given me an interesting perspective to view the world with. It’s a part of who I am, and I like who I am. It did turn me off Christianity completely and organized religion in general, and I have rejected nearly every value it tried to give me.

I understand there are a lot of factors here. This is just my story and others I grew up with all came out a little different then me. True a strong mind and great (if misguided) parents helped me along. Let’s not assume these children can’t possibly be ok. Only time can tell us that. I watched that show as an escapee of that lifestyle and I don’t find it disturbing at all. Those kids will be like all kids, some will conform and some won’t. Being born to that is not a life sentence and believe it or not it’s not that bad. I never needed therapy anyway.

Oh and one more thing, we had to look like that for religious reasons. No matter what work those girls are doing they can’t put on “safer clothing”. I don’t know if that was made clear.
Rachel....thank you for sharing your story.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#382 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
Abuse is a problem for me as well.

Children do not have the same say as adults in my world. They do not have the life experience or wisdom.

Sexist and oppressive is a matter of opinion.
Children know a lot more than many adults. My daughter has taught me so much and she's only 21 months old. I don't go by how old people are to decide how much respect to give them.

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Rachel....thank you for sharing your story.

Thank you for reading it.

You and I are very different but I do hear what you're saying and I know where you’re coming from. I know great people can come from this lifestyle. I did, and your children will be just fine too.
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Interesting thread.

I just wanted to add another view. When husband and I watched this show he said it was like looking at old pictures of me. That’s right I could be Jinger, I looked just like her at that age. I had the long hair and skirts; I looked after lots of siblings. (Not that many, my mom only had seven kids.) Discipline in our home was biblical. I was educated by the church we went to and did little association with the outside world.

We didn’t have a TV and internet was not invented yet so you would think I had no idea about the outside world. Yes I missed out on a lot of pop culture, but I knew what the world was. I went to malls and stores. I read the papers. I was sheltered but I wasn’t clueless. Yes I was raised in an environment of male superiority, no doubt about that, however I never believed it. I was ALWAYS a feminist. I had a mind and I used it.

When I turned eighteen I left, I rejected the bible and this lifestyle completely. I do have issues with my childhood but you know what? I’m fine. I had a pretty happy childhood and I walked away from it healthy and whole.

My childhood has given me an interesting perspective to view the world with. It’s a part of who I am, and I like who I am. It did turn me off Christianity completely and organized religion in general, and I have rejected nearly every value it tried to give me.

I understand there are a lot of factors here. This is just my story and others I grew up with all came out a little different then me. True a strong mind and great (if misguided) parents helped me along. Let’s not assume these children can’t possibly be ok. Only time can tell us that. I watched that show as an escapee of that lifestyle and I don’t find it disturbing at all. Those kids will be like all kids, some will conform and some won’t. Being born to that is not a life sentence and believe it or not it’s not that bad. I never needed therapy anyway.

Oh and one more thing, we had to look like that for religious reasons. No matter what work those girls are doing they can’t put on “safer clothing”. I don’t know if that was made clear.

Yayyyy! So there is hope for those poor kids. I do want to commend your personal strength in being able to break out of that oppressive life. I also has a stiffling childhood in many ways (religious based) and I know that for many people it's really hard to get out.

Angelbee, they have their own "Reality TV" show. They know what they're doing is sensationally bizarre on some level. They are *marketing* their very way of life. The fact that you can somehow fit your contradictory paths all into one neat little bundle and justify it as a "biblical life" does not mean you hold the key. In fact, your life seems extremely unique. You have a perfect submissive marriage, somehow stay home, yet own a business. You make a living in a very secular and worldly profession, everybody's happy doing menial labour, nobody complains because they're not "proud". Working for "the man" is better than going to college. I just do not understand how you can possibly reconcile these choices with one hand and condemn others who do not feel the same, with the other.
I hope every last one of those children is gay. I hope so for their own good so they can smash down their patriarchal, oppressive upbringing and run free, have sex for fun, and wear their own damn clothes.
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Would you support your son becoming a priest, four years of college and four years of seminary for 8 years of schooling?
I just read three pages and don't see an answer to my question. Did I miss something?
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#386 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:37 PM
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I danced. That was my main thing. I took lessons 30 or more hours a week. I loved it!
Who paid for your lessons? I live in a rather wealthy area and don't know anyone who could afford that.
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#387 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:37 PM
 
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Yayyyy! So there is hope for those poor kids. I do want to commend your personal strength in being able to break out of that oppressive life. I also has a stiffling childhood in many ways (religious based) and I know that for many people it's really hard to get out.

Angelbee, they have their own "Reality TV" show. They know what they're doing is sensationally bizarre on some level. They are *marketing* their very way of life. The fact that you can somehow fit your contradictory paths all into one neat little bundle and justify it as a "biblical life" does not mean you hold the key. In fact, your life seems extremely unique. You have a perfect submissive marriage, somehow stay home, yet own a business. You make a living in a very secular and worldly profession, everybody's happy doing menial labour, nobody complains because they're not "proud". Working for "the man" is better than going to college. I just do not understand how you can possibly reconcile these choices with one hand and condemn others who do not feel the same, with the other.
I hope every last one of those children is gay. I hope so for their own good so they can smash down their patriarchal, oppressive upbringing and run free, have sex for fun, and wear their own damn clothes.


Mom to Dakota (6), Coy, (4), Max, (4), Lily (4), and Auri (June 19th 2010)!
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#388 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kathryn
Children know a lot more than many adults. My daughter has taught me so much and she's only 21 months old. I don't go by how old people are to decide how much respect to give them.
Respect is one thing..If my 2.5 yo decided she wanted to walk right out into the street I would make her choice for her...I still respect her!
Kids don't always know what is best. I sure as hell made some supid decisions that I wish someone would have stopped me. I guess its based on the situation.
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#389 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DebraBaker
Now, I'm quoting marsupialmom, "Oddly enough I think those kids were better perpared for life than I was. I had no clue on how to cook, clean well, maintain a house, nor finicial matters. I have no one to go back get help from if things break and I cannot fix it. If the girls cannot fix something they can call up their brothers for help."

Oh, boy, I don't think it's a mutually exclusive issue. I have helped my grown children with basics like cooking, cleaning, and budgeting.

Now, they've married nice men who don't want Suzie Homemaker and are willing to do half (or more) of the homework. Dd 2's dh cooks and cleans. She does the wash and studies, and does carpentry and tile-laying. Dh taught the girls to do basic house-building stuff like carpentry.

I really don't want my girls to be calling their brothers to do the "boy's work." and I certainly would blow a gasket if only the girls came in response to housework calls as happened in the Duggar video.

db
My dh does the house work, but at 18 there was so much of the basics I don't know......

I don't have the family to fall back on. What if one of your dd's husband becomes unable to help? What if she needs help because she is truly unable to learn to do it? Death, divorce, and desease does happen. It is easier if you have a pool of people to help you out. When my mom divorced my dad that is why she moved "home". She had a pool of people that could help her better. My mom could do but it was and is easier to rely on older/longer relationship. There are trade offs here not completely onesided a give and take.

What if one of their wives become able to help and do her part? One of my sil's co-workers moved "home" because his wife died leaving him with 2 children that his sister is helping him raise.

You/we don't know if the Duggers are doing things like making sure the girls know how to do care care and repair. Homeschooling I have met big conservative families like this and guess what......The girls learned it all also, just in case. The boys also learn the basic too, becuase you don't know what life with throw at your kids.
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#390 of 1903 Old 03-14-2006, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
He will be making more than $5 more because he is not too proud to do the sh!t work and earn his way.

He is a hard worker, good to others, and will probably own his own company someday.....he is already on the way to that.

Not bad for a homeschooler without a college education!
Um, it has nothing to do with how willing you are to do the "sh!t" work, it has to do with prevailing wages in your area, housing market, and the supply-and-demand of labor. THere are sooo many people willing to work for really low wages, that no const. co. is going to pay more.

Owning your own co. is great, in theory. It gets a lot less fun when you're dealing with licensing, worker's comp., OSHA regs, and the recent changes in insurance.
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