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Old 03-14-2006, 09:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by numom499
Seriously, what is your dig with this? What is wrong with letting children make their own choices?
Nothiong at all...but there is NO WAY that people let their children make ALL their own choices....[/QUOTE]

My family strives to live consensually and no one is made to do anything they do not want to. We always explain all the sides of an issue, how it effects each individual, and what any long-term ramifications are then we all make our own chocie. Sometimes that me I (or dd or dh) choose to agree to something that is not their first choice, but they are choosing to allow that. If dd does not want to wear a coat and it is 10 degrees, I explain why she might want to and elave it up to her. I might choose to bring a coat for her in case she changes her mind. That is a minor example. Another would be shortly after dh and I got married. I got offered my dream job with great pay but it was in an area that dh did not want to move to. we discussed all of the options, out feelings, the pros and cons, and I decided to turn the job down. I wanted the that job a great deal but I wanted dh to be happy more. This is how we make our decisions as a family no matter the age. I do not bwlieve there is "no way".
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:33 PM
 
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This thread has really strained my sense of tolerance. As tolerance is something I've been working on in my own life, I've stuck with it.

Earlier I was given a snippy reply to my accusation of ethnocentrism, but I've seen it pasted all over this thread.

I think there are thinks about the Duggars that I strongly disagree with, and it saddens me to think that children are raised with these methods, most notably the spanking. Certain things about their religious beliefs (and I had a strong dose of fundamentalist Christianty as a child--I was sent to a independent Baptist Christian school that used ACE and Abeka curriculae for middle school which I remember fondly as 3 years of well-meaning attempts to brainwash me) also disturb me, in part because grappling with them in my teens was such a big part of my identity formation--if it wasn't for my sexual orientation, I doubt I would have questioned the faith I was raised in, at least not when I did.

Many things about them I try to view with a cultural anthropologist's objective eye: their haircuts, clothes, gender division of labor, etc. fit in just fine in their own subculture. I've learned enough about other cultures around the world not to paint ANY group with black-and-white, all right-or-wrong stripes. Yes, they live in a patriarchal subculture; no, I do not see the Great Evil Patriarchy hopelessly brainwashing poor, defenseless girls into guaranteed lives of eternal submission. People, and situations, are more complex than that. Some women are happy leading submissive lives. Heck, millions of people around the world find a life of submission to God (The middle-eastern monotheistic one) very fulfilling. I think fundamentalism has certain pitfalls in any religion, but I don't think it is whole-cloth inherently bad.

I also see things that are admirable about them. They have a close-knit family bond, in which the parents are transmitting their values to their children. This is how culture is usually transmitted, from older to younger generations. It's stable. Belief in freedom of choice about ethics, religion, clothing style, etc. is also a value which may be passed to children. They live quite frugally, are not in debt, and teach their children to value something besides our culture's rampant consumerism. I'd be willing to bet they use a lot fewer resource, per individual, than the average American. My DH doesn't get how you can expect kids to share a room; I want a big family and see no reason why, depending on age and sex ratio, you can't raise 4 kids in a 3 bedroom home.

We all have the right to raise our own children as we see fit, so long as they aren't greatly harmed by it. Would you step in and take away their children because of the harm you percieve? And if tomorrow someone else decides the way you parent is wrong, though as far as you can see (and by their own testimony) your children are happy, safe, and well-adjusted? Would you then consider it unjust that they come and take your children away?

I've seen a lot of accusations of making the girls do all the housework to the neglect of their education. On what is this based? On the Duggars' website, they describe all their children, girls and boys, as having aspects of housework they are responsible for, and that during certain times of the day they work on it.

However, they also describe their homeschooling schedule. I doubt Jinger is locked in the laundry room while the other older children study law; they are all getting an education.

Gender-based division of labor is not inherently evil just because one part of American society holds that it should all be equal. And millions of people in the world rely on older siblings to help take care of younger siblings. Studies have been done which suggest that, depending on other factors in the family of course, and the age of the responsible children, this in not bad for either the older or younger children.

Mrs. Duggar, even if she only goes 5 or 6 months per child, should still be commended for breastfeeding. She comes from a part of the country with some of the lowest rates of breastfeeding. She's actually ahead of the curve.

As for the name thing, that's a fairly common pattern in the rural U.S. We knew one family in Idaho who named the kids all L names (both parents happened to have names that started with L as well). I named my daughter after a character from an obscure fantasy tale; I know people who have proscribed traditions for naming in their families, such as the firstborn son getting the father's first name and the maternal grandfather's middle name. In some societies such proscriptions for naming children are very strict. It doesn't make them wrong.

As for the very fact of them being on TV, recollections of how the evangelical fundamentalist mind works suggests to me that they consider it part of their spiritual mission in life to show the world a godly way of life with their example, and by seeking the widest possible audience via national television coverage, they are doing that to the best of their abilities. And they are committed to being debt-free, not to never accepting donations or mutual support within their community. They aren't going to take out a loan, but that doesn't mean they won't accept a gift. To some people, that is a very skewed view, but to others makes a lot of sense.

I almost lost a good friend not long ago because I couldn't lighten up and be a bit nonjudgemental about something important to me: breastfeeding. Since then I've learned to lighten up. You do what you can to be a force for good in the world, and the Duggars will too.

And what's with calling the girls' hair style a mullet? They're bangs. Yes, full bangs, but bangs nonetheless. In the South women tend to like big bangs. I can remember sitting in the movie theater in TX behind someone and wishing I could bash her over the head with her own can of hairspray because her bangs were blocking my view...

breastfeeding, babywearing, homeschooling Heathen parent to my little Wanderer, 7 1/2 , and baby Elf-stone, 3/11!

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Old 03-14-2006, 09:40 PM
 
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Good points, Ravin!

Here's me I married then we had dd15 , dd11 , ds10 , and then and now we and I blog!
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by numom499
Really? If she chose formula at 3 months,,,you would allow it? what if she chose disposable diapers? Also okay with you? What if she chose to watch pornaography at 3 years old? Sure honey, you decide.
What the heck is that comment supposed to mean.. ?? If you are wanting people to take you seriously maybe you should think before you write. Because that is just about the most ridiculous comment I have ever read.
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:54 PM
 
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This thread has really strained my sense of tolerance. As tolerance is something I've been working on in my own life, I've stuck with it.

Earlier I was given a snippy reply to my accusation of ethnocentrism, but I've seen it pasted all over this thread.

I think there are thinks about the Duggars that I strongly disagree with, and it saddens me to think that children are raised with these methods, most notably the spanking. Certain things about their religious beliefs (and I had a strong dose of fundamentalist Christianty as a child--I was sent to a independent Baptist Christian school that used ACE and Abeka curriculae for middle school which I remember fondly as 3 years of well-meaning attempts to brainwash me) also disturb me, in part because grappling with them in my teens was such a big part of my identity formation--if it wasn't for my sexual orientation, I doubt I would have questioned the faith I was raised in, at least not when I did.

Many things about them I try to view with a cultural anthropologist's objective eye: their haircuts, clothes, gender division of labor, etc. fit in just fine in their own subculture. I've learned enough about other cultures around the world not to paint ANY group with black-and-white, all right-or-wrong stripes. Yes, they live in a patriarchal subculture; no, I do not see the Great Evil Patriarchy hopelessly brainwashing poor, defenseless girls into guaranteed lives of eternal submission. People, and situations, are more complex than that. Some women are happy leading submissive lives. Heck, millions of people around the world find a life of submission to God (The middle-eastern monotheistic one) very fulfilling. I think fundamentalism has certain pitfalls in any religion, but I don't think it is whole-cloth inherently bad.

I also see things that are admirable about them. They have a close-knit family bond, in which the parents are transmitting their values to their children. This is how culture is usually transmitted, from older to younger generations. It's stable. Belief in freedom of choice about ethics, religion, clothing style, etc. is also a value which may be passed to children. They live quite frugally, are not in debt, and teach their children to value something besides our culture's rampant consumerism. I'd be willing to bet they use a lot fewer resource, per individual, than the average American. My DH doesn't get how you can expect kids to share a room; I want a big family and see no reason why, depending on age and sex ratio, you can't raise 4 kids in a 3 bedroom home.

We all have the right to raise our own children as we see fit, so long as they aren't greatly harmed by it. Would you step in and take away their children because of the harm you percieve? And if tomorrow someone else decides the way you parent is wrong, though as far as you can see (and by their own testimony) your children are happy, safe, and well-adjusted? Would you then consider it unjust that they come and take your children away?

I've seen a lot of accusations of making the girls do all the housework to the neglect of their education. On what is this based? On the Duggars' website, they describe all their children, girls and boys, as having aspects of housework they are responsible for, and that during certain times of the day they work on it.

However, they also describe their homeschooling schedule. I doubt Jinger is locked in the laundry room while the other older children study law; they are all getting an education.

Gender-based division of labor is not inherently evil just because one part of American society holds that it should all be equal. And millions of people in the world rely on older siblings to help take care of younger siblings. Studies have been done which suggest that, depending on other factors in the family of course, and the age of the responsible children, this in not bad for either the older or younger children.

Mrs. Duggar, even if she only goes 5 or 6 months per child, should still be commended for breastfeeding. She comes from a part of the country with some of the lowest rates of breastfeeding. She's actually ahead of the curve.

As for the name thing, that's a fairly common pattern in the rural U.S. We knew one family in Idaho who named the kids all L names (both parents happened to have names that started with L as well). I named my daughter after a character from an obscure fantasy tale; I know people who have proscribed traditions for naming in their families, such as the firstborn son getting the father's first name and the maternal grandfather's middle name. In some societies such proscriptions for naming children are very strict. It doesn't make them wrong.

As for the very fact of them being on TV, recollections of how the evangelical fundamentalist mind works suggests to me that they consider it part of their spiritual mission in life to show the world a godly way of life with their example, and by seeking the widest possible audience via national television coverage, they are doing that to the best of their abilities. And they are committed to being debt-free, not to never accepting donations or mutual support within their community. They aren't going to take out a loan, but that doesn't mean they won't accept a gift. To some people, that is a very skewed view, but to others makes a lot of sense.

I almost lost a good friend not long ago because I couldn't lighten up and be a bit nonjudgemental about something important to me: breastfeeding. Since then I've learned to lighten up. You do what you can to be a force for good in the world, and the Duggars will too.

And what's with calling the girls' hair style a mullet? They're bangs. Yes, full bangs, but bangs nonetheless. In the South women tend to like big bangs. I can remember sitting in the movie theater in TX behind someone and wishing I could bash her over the head with her own can of hairspray because her bangs were blocking my view...
Best post I've seen in all 14 pages of this thread!
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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What the heck is that comment supposed to mean.. ?? If you are wanting people to take you seriously maybe you should think before you write. Because that is just about the most ridiculous comment I have ever read.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:09 PM
 
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:10 PM
 
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No, I said MOM Duggar had a mullet. The proper term is "femullet." It's different than bangs, and the girls don't have them. I know my mullets, having a) had one during a bout of late-80s insanity and b) growing up in a very mullet-licious small town/trailer park.

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Old 03-14-2006, 10:15 PM
 
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Many things about them I try to view with a cultural anthropologist's objective eye: their haircuts, clothes, gender division of labor, etc. fit in just fine in their own subculture. I've learned enough about other cultures around the world not to paint ANY group with black-and-white, all right-or-wrong stripes. Yes, they live in a patriarchal subculture; no, I do not see the Great Evil Patriarchy hopelessly brainwashing poor, defenseless girls into guaranteed lives of eternal submission. People, and situations, are more complex than that. Some women are happy leading submissive lives. Heck, millions of people around the world find a life of submission to God (The middle-eastern monotheistic one) very fulfilling. I think fundamentalism has certain pitfalls in any religion, but I don't think it is whole-cloth inherently bad.
Well, in my view they really manage to put the "cult" in subculture. Viewing it from a cultural anthropologists reference is one way, and it's a good one. I really appreciated the thought put into your post and the perspective you've offered.
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It's stable. Belief in freedom of choice about ethics, religion, clothing style, etc. is also a value which may be passed to children. They live quite frugally, are not in debt, and teach their children to value something besides our culture's rampant consumerism. I'd be willing to bet they use a lot fewer resource, per individual, than the average American. My DH doesn't get how you can expect kids to share a room; I want a big family and see no reason why, depending on age and sex ratio, you can't raise 4 kids in a 3 bedroom home.
Good points here as well. But the solutions to the problems you've presented such as overuse of resources are in dispute by virtue of the fact that these people have 16 children and a 7000 sq foot house.
Valuing somthing outside of rampant consumerism is good and necessary. But what one chooses to value instead, is in question.
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We all have the right to raise our own children as we see fit, so long as they aren't greatly harmed by it.
Again, one persons idea of harm is not the same as another's.

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Would you step in and take away their children because of the harm you percieve?
No I would not. But I see them as an example of why the fight for feminist ideologies is still really, really important. And I am inspired to express those ideolgies vociferously forever if need be, in the hopes that a little seed may be planted in a young, oppressed girl's heart in order to hopefully empower her to save her daughters.

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And if tomorrow someone else decides the way you parent is wrong, though as far as you can see (and by their own testimony) your children are happy, safe, and well-adjusted? Would you then consider it unjust that they come and take your children away?
Yes



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However, they also describe their homeschooling schedule. I doubt Jinger is locked in the laundry room while the other older children study law; they are all getting an education.
Debatable.

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Gender-based division of labor is not inherently evil just because one part of American society holds that it should all be equal. And millions of people in the world rely on older siblings to help take care of younger siblings.
True. There is always an ongoing debate between universal human rights and cultura human rights. What can we do when those rights collide? This is a really interesting topic to me and one I'd love to discuss further.


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As for the very fact of them being on TV, recollections of how the evangelical fundamentalist mind works suggests to me that they consider it part of their spiritual mission in life to show the world a godly way of life with their example, and by seeking the widest possible audience via national television coverage, they are doing that to the best of their abilities.
And they then open themselves up to public scrutiny and monetary gain. If the water it down, they are lying and selling out. If they really show the nitty-gritty, they can expect their earthly reward and hope it doesn't cancel out the one they hope to receive in heaven.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:21 PM
 
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Has anyone ever read Margaret Atwood's book The Handmaid's Tale? Because this discussion is seriously frightening me.

And for that matter, why on earth did they allow an 8 year old to run a gas line? An 8 year old child.

Gas line is empty and you go back over it to double check the work. Awsome learning oppurtunity, homeschoolers would think.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama
Oh, baby ear piercing ALWAYS comes into the conversation on MDC.

No, I never pierced my son's ears, as he lacks the ability to communicate beyond "gargar." But because he is part pirate, I imagine he'll be asking for one in a few years. Sigh. As long as he doesn't use his father's harpoon.

LOL..............That is funny.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:27 PM
 
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wait...a child's judgement???? But some mamas think their children are perfectly equipped to make all their own decisions...with that so called child's judgement...
I believe a child's opinion has value and should be heard, especially in regards to himself. If a child doesn't want to move somewhere, it's in HIS and MY best interest to hear that opinion. At least let them make their feelings known rather than walk all over them like dirt. Giving your child VALUE is of major importance. Ignoring their feelings and expecting them to do something because MAMA or DADDY said so is just not okay.

And maybe some mamas do think that children are equipped to make their own decisions. And they are. Within a reasonable boundary.

Obviously others will find another instance where there is a question of respecting a child's judgement and a call has to be made on a case by case basis. MY point is that a CHILD is not capable of raising another child due to lack of life experience and certain cognitive functions.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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333 sq. ft. a person isn't that much space by American standards.

breastfeeding, babywearing, homeschooling Heathen parent to my little Wanderer, 7 1/2 , and baby Elf-stone, 3/11!

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Old 03-14-2006, 10:42 PM
 
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Well, by golly, there's a good goal. Let's all strive to raise our children as though we live in extreme poverty and are on the verge of not surviving. :
No, what I am saying it means children are more capable than we give them. They are survive a lot worse things than what the Duggers do.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:43 PM
 
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Well, in my home, we have a total of seven people... and an 1800 square foot home.

soooo... hmmm... 1800/7= roughly 257 Square Feet/Person.

We expect our three younger boys to share a room, our daughter has her OWN room, and our oldes has his own room as he is at least five years older than the next sibling.

Not sure why I'm posting this... :LOL
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:48 PM
 
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Jephehezieaheah
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:54 PM
 
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I also keep seeing the concern that the Duggars are raised to be a certain way. Well I keep scratching my head because in a way we are ALL raised to be a certain way. Yes, I know some of you let your children make their own choices, etc. but in a way, you are still raising them in that way. You are raising them to be accepting of certain lifestyles, you are emphasizing certain political agenda. I mean, are you really sitting your kids down and saying ....."This is what is good about republicans and this is what is good about democrats and ....etc". We ALL have our own opinions and beliefs and it is natural to impose them (even subconciously) on our children. I think the Duggar children may or may not CHOOSE to continue to live that way. I dont buy into the whole patriarchal thing and yet I'm a christian. I dont think the kids are being victimized. (I dont live in that house and dont see what goes on). I think the Duggars could have some strong opinions about some mamas on here (me included). They may view some of our practices as child abuse or exploitation or suppresion.......
I agree with this, but I think a crucial distinction needs to be made. Most parents try in some ways to instill their own values in their children, but in most cases those children have other influences as well. These can be very varied--school, friends, other family, reading, play groups, camp, extracurricular activities, the news, pop culture, you name it. Teaching your children your values is very different from ensuring that they have absolutely no other influences that might challenge those values and enable them ultimately to make their own choices. From what I've seen and read (primarily on the original Duggar special, which has since been re-edited), the Duggar children are very seriously isolated and are not exposed to ANYTHING that conflicts with the family ideology. There is a fine line between "instilling values" and brainwashing.

Although dh and I are politically liberal, I have a number of friends who are very conservative, belong to evangelical churches, etc. Now, they raise their children VERY differently than I would raise mine, and they certainly teach their children their beliefs. But they don't isolate their kids from the world, so that, when those kids are adults, they will ultimately decide whether or not to adhere to those values. I'm not totally convinced that the Duggar children will have the same opportunity--or, at the very least, that they will able to do so without being "shunned."
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Old 03-14-2006, 11:00 PM
 
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OK, I can't read all 35 pages here, but I thought it was great that she nursed on TV, even if it was under a blanket!
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Old 03-14-2006, 11:05 PM
 
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I agree with this, but I think a crucial distinction needs to be made. Most parents try in some ways to instill their own values in their children, but in most cases those children have other influences as well. These can be very varied--school, friends, other family, reading, play groups, camp, extracurricular activities, the news, pop culture, you name it. Teaching your children your values is very different from ensuring that they have absolutely no other influences that might challenge those values and enable them ultimately to make their own choices. From what I've seen and read (primarily on the original Duggar special, which has since been re-edited), the Duggar children are very seriously isolated and are not exposed to ANYTHING that conflicts with the family ideology. There is a fine line between "instilling values" and brainwashing.

Although dh and I are politically liberal, I have a number of friends who are very conservative, belong to evangelical churches, etc. Now, they raise their children VERY differently than I would raise mine, and they certainly teach their children their beliefs. But they don't isolate their kids from the world, so that, when those kids are adults, they will ultimately decide whether or not to adhere to those values. I'm not totally convinced that the Duggar children will have the same opportunity--or, at the very least, that they will able to do so without being "shunned."
I totally see your point and agree. I know many families that shelter their children from any and all outside thinking. I think the idea behind their isolation is to ensure they are protected from harmful influences until they are old enough to distinguish the difference from right and wrong (so to speak). I dont agree but I see the reasons behind this type of parenting. I also see how it can be harmful to "shelter" them in this way. It can set the children up for some difficult conflicts...

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Old 03-14-2006, 11:56 PM
 
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OK, I can't read all 35 pages here, but I thought it was great that she nursed on TV, even if it was under a blanket!
Are you sure she was nursing? She was probably 'blanket training' the baby and hitting it with a spoon.
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:10 AM
 
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Are you sure she was nursing? She was probably 'blanket training' the baby and hitting it with a spoon.
This wins my nomination for Funniest Post on the Thread. But inhaling coffee burns.
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:34 AM
 
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Are you sure she was nursing? She was probably 'blanket training' the baby and hitting it with a spoon.

 

 

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Old 03-15-2006, 12:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NYCVeg
.

Although dh and I are politically liberal, I have a number of friends who are very conservative, belong to evangelical churches, etc. Now, they raise their children VERY differently than I would raise mine, and they certainly teach their children their beliefs. But they don't isolate their kids from the world, so that, when those kids are adults, they will ultimately decide whether or not to adhere to those values. I'm not totally convinced that the Duggar children will have the same opportunity--or, at the very least, that they will able to do so without being "shunned."
My BIL and his family are very conservative. They homeschool and are very sheltered. That can't even find a church they want to expose to their children to. The oldest, 21, tried to go to college...his father went with him the first day....and he had a panic attack and hasn't been back since. The girls have very bad panic in public as well. They never leave the house and only hang out with eachother. No friends except online. It is extremely unhealthy to be this sheltered. They will eventually have to be out in the real world...when exactly is a good time to do this?Birth I think!:
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:46 AM
 
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Isn't it a little sad that the children have no PERSONAL possessions? I'm not talking XBoxs or Gameboys, expensive high-end consumer crap, I'm talking about the little momentos, trinkets, toys, etc. Maybe a little trinket box, a matchbox car, a magic rock, a favorite book, a bracelet, a whatever --- of their very own. Something that is their's and only their's?
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chersolly
Are you sure she was nursing? She was probably 'blanket training' the baby and hitting it with a spoon.
This comment is ignorant...not the person who posted it.

Edited: to clarify what I meant by the "ignorant" post.
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:51 AM
 
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Are you sure she was nursing? She was probably 'blanket training' the baby and hitting it with a spoon.
Oh, ya big smarty-pants.
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:54 AM
 
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Ignorant.
Funny, because I see blanket training as being ignorant.
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Old 03-15-2006, 12:56 AM
 
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Ignorant.
WHOA! the mods will (in my experience) remove that. Have we really stooped to name calling on a thread about a TV show?
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:01 AM
 
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By the way. I saw the first show on TLC, but not the new one (no tv) so I know about the blanket training, but did someone actually get hit with a spoon, or was that just a joke?
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Old 03-15-2006, 01:04 AM
 
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their form of child discipline is very ezzo/pearl, which includes wood spoon whippings for babies on up..
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