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#61 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 02:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
yeah, it's Romans 9:13
Can you explain how the passage could be symbolic or connected to the others?

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i think it's weird that her name is still alex. that means either she was old enough to say it, or they knew it. but why didn't they change it?
I do too! I read that someone had a theory that Danielle used to be part of the Others, and was brainwashed to believe the story she tells. If this was true then she might have been with them longer...if this is true Alex may not even be her daughter. I can only come up with lots of speculative theories about Alex.

Also, we know that Ben (Henry) was trapped by one of Danielle's nets. Could he really have been going to talk to Danielle about Alex? Was his time with the Losties just an accident? Did Alex learn that her mother lived on the other island, and they were controlling her through Karl? Did Karl find out?
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#62 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 03:08 PM
 
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I love reading this thread the day after You all come up with so many interesting theories about things that I don't even THINK of at first.

But, yeah....why IS her name Alex?

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#63 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 03:13 PM
 
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WOOT!!

K..I totally missed the Alex thing. Totally. I was so zoned in on the girl and the boy...wow..that chamber they had him in!! that was insane!!:

I looooved seeing info on Juliette and her past life.

She also said she'd been on the island for 3 yrs, 2 months and 28 days. I wonder if its really that long in time off the island?

I get the idea that time on the island isnt the same as off the island..

Desmond said he had abeen there for a long time...but yet he saw Jack not long before Jack got on the plane. right? or am i confused?
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#64 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 03:15 PM
 
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No Jack and Desmond met a while ago.

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#65 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 04:03 PM
 
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yes the flashbacks can be years in advance, remember we saw locke walking and with hair.lol

I still believe that Danielle is part of the Others and has been the whole time. I don't think anything on the island is accident.

I wonder what that person(tom?) was going to say when Jack asked why they didn't just leave. He stared saying something about after the purple sky, but the purple sky was just a few days earlier. I think it is connected to the magnetic field, remember how the boat with Saywer, Jin & Michael came back to the island. Now that the hatch blew up I wonder if that magnetic field is gone so now they can actually leave. The control that outsiders(who drop food and such off) is gone. But then why don't they just leave? Is Ben the only one with the right coordinates? Did he let Michael leave with Walt before or after the purple sky?
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#66 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 04:07 PM
 
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I wonder what that person(tom?) was going to say when Jack asked why they didn't just leave. He stared saying something about after the purple sky, but the purple sky was just a few days earlier. But then why don't they just leave? Is Ben the only one with the right coordinates? Did he let Michael leave with Walt before or after the purple sky?
Michael left after the sky turned purple. I wonder if their outside contact has been diminished by an electrical surge because of the release (explosion).

I also think that people are not just leaving the island, despite their capability, because of lots of psychological and behavioral manipulation. They do not even know they want to leave, and if they do perhaps they are threatened, etc.
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#67 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 04:22 PM
 
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Can you explain how the passage could be symbolic or connected to the others?
I am replying to myself. I started doing some research and stumbled upon this article (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1566980,00.html)

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Considering the popular contention that the island in Lost is Purgatory (or, among a smaller group of theorists, Hell), ''Jacob's Ladder'' is certainly a provocative allusion; the term refers to the biblical story in which Jacob — son of Isaac, the son of Promised Land-promised Abraham — was given a vision of a ladder leading to Heaven, with angels ascending and descending. An interesting concept to apply to Lost, which chronicles the up-and-down struggles of a group of people yearning for salvation, literally and figuratively.

In fact, it's very possible that biblical Jacob could be a key that unlocks the entire mystery of the Others, as well as the island.

To wit: I wonder if Jacob is the paterfamilias of the Others.

See, Jacob had many more claims to biblical fame than just seeing visions of ladders. This was the dude who robbed his brother Esau out of his birthright, the dude who wrestled with an angel (and won!), and most intriguingly, the dude who sired the 12 boys who would form the 12 tribes of Israel.

According to the Bible, most of Jacob's sons weren't exactly the nicest kids. After all, they got so jealous of their brother Joseph (think: Desmond), they threw him into a pit (think: The Hatch), told Dad he had been killed, and sold him into slavery. (Theory: Mr. Widmore, hatching schemes and telling lies to keep Des and Pen apart.) By the way, Joseph turned out just fine, as he became tight with the ruler of Egypt thanks to his... supernatural ability to interpret the future from weird dreams. (Again, I say: DESMOND!)

But besides Joseph, there was another Son of Jacob who was a pretty good egg. In fact, he was Joseph's favorite brother. His name?

BENJAMIN.

Now, if you know a little bit about the history of Israel — and by the way, I know, like, less than a little bit — you know that at some point, the Tribe of Benjamin and the Tribe of Judah split from the rest of the tribes. They formed their own country in the southern part of the Promised Land. Eventually, the other 10 tribes were conquered and kinda disappeared from history, and have become the subject of historical conjecture and conspiracy theory. If Lost is somehow mirroring Old Testament history, could this portend a revelation that the Others used to be one big happily family that fell apart, fragmented, and scattered across the island — or even migrated away from it?

The Israelites were God's chosen people. They were set apart by God to be a holy people, who by the witness of their blessings and ways would proclaim the power and authority of the God they worshipped and inspire the rest of the world to worship Him as they did. Their country was supposed to be a light unto nations, a beacon on the hill. Application to Lost: Do the Others consider themselves chosen people, set apart by God?
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#68 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 05:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jenandavery View Post
I do too! I read that someone had a theory that Danielle used to be part of the Others, and was brainwashed to believe the story she tells. If this was true then she might have been with them longer...if this is true Alex may not even be her daughter. I can only come up with lots of speculative theories about Alex.
Ooooh, I LIKE this one.

And, frankly, I think it's pretty dumb that they took a half-brainwashed person with them. How could they ever trust him? Not that it would really make a difference, anyway, it's not like they can hide from the others.

On another note - I will never in a million years believe that Benry got trapped in that net. I believe 100% it was a set-up.
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#69 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 05:51 PM
 
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i think it's weird that her name is still alex. that means either she was old enough to say it, or they knew it. but why didn't they change it?
Any thoughts about Alex's name and the allusion to A Clockwork Orange (main character's name is Alex)?

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On another note - I will never in a million years believe that Benry got trapped in that net. I believe 100% it was a set-up.
Me too!
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#70 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 06:57 PM
 
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Any thoughts about Alex's name and the allusion to A Clockwork Orange (main character's name is Alex)?
What was the allusion? I tried once reading the book, but could NOT get into it. Cause, you know, it's not in English.
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#71 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 07:02 PM
 
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What was the allusion? I tried once reading the book, but could NOT get into it. Cause, you know, it's not in English.
Karl's brainwashing scene. It was very similar to "The Ludovico Technique" described in the book (or in the movie).
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#72 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 07:11 PM
 
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Ah! Very interesting, thanks!
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#73 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 07:28 PM
 
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This episode made me warm up to Juliette a bit more. Up to now, I've thought of her as a manipulative b**ch. She's obviously willing to do whatever it takes to get off the island including whacking off fellow Others at the behest of Benry. Even when he's face down on an operating table with minutes to live, Benry can still manipulate people. He's da mastah manipulator.

Was anyone else creeped out by Edmund Burke, Juliette's ex-hubby? I can't say I was too sorry to see him die. As soon as Juliette responded to Albert's Hoffman's question about how she could get away from Edmund, I turned to DH and said ..."You KNOW Edmund's going to get hit by a bus!!"

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#74 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 07:45 PM
 
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I find it very interesting that Juliette was being recruited by Albert Hoffman...IRL, Dr. Albert Hofmann "discovered" LSD.
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#75 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 07:58 PM
 
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Is it me or was the actor who played Albert Hoffman wearing too much eyeliner?

Normal is just a setting on your dryer.
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#76 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 08:07 PM
 
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I find it very interesting that Juliette was being recruited by Albert Hoffman...IRL, Dr. Albert Hofmann "discovered" LSD.
That is interesting, and it would be the second reference to the idea that the island dwellers were possibly being drugged.
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#77 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 08:16 PM
 
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Is it me or was the actor who played Albert Hoffman wearing too much eyeliner?
yes I noticed that, it was odd.
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#78 of 1493 Old 02-08-2007, 08:30 PM
 
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I am replying to myself. I started doing some research and stumbled upon this article (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1566980,00.html)
I also found this about name connections and more information about Jacob. http://blogs.chron.com/tubular/archives/lost/
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Rachel is a recurring name on the show. {Juliette's sister is named Rachel.} We've got Rachel, the friend that brought Claire to Richard Malkin, the psychic. There is Rachel, the wife of Kate's Tom, the doctor that was accidentally killed, and in the Lost Experience, our heroine is Rachel Blake.

A short bible lesson: Rachel was the wife of Jacob, and mother of Joseph and Benjamin. Her story is interesting: She and Jacob loved one another, and wanted to marry. So Jacob worked for her father for seven years before he was granted permission to marry her. And THEN! The father tricked Jacob by sending Rachel's uglier sister, Leah, to marry him! Anyway, eventually, Rachel and Jacob are allowed to marry, and Rachel is barren for a long time. She, like Sarah, offered her handmaidens to her husband as a means for him to have children (never mind that he already had children with her sister, but whatever), and finally she bore two sons: Benjamin and Joseph. She eventually died in childbirth, delivering a breech baby. There is a wealth of Lost parallels here, as you can see: Jacob, Benjamin, miraculous pregnancies, the old switcheroo being played on people ...
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#79 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 02:47 AM
 
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Someone earlier mentioned that "Jacob" was mentioned on the show before the break. Has anybody thought about that with the whole Jacob thing in the brainwashing? (I had forgotten, but it was when Picket was saying that Jack Shepard wasn't even on "Jacob's list," and that raised questions about whether Benry is the head guy, who this Jacob was who made up the list of Lostees and Tailees to be kidnapped, etc.) I just thought biblical reference when I saw the name flash on the screen, though.

And yes, I thought of Clockwork Orange for sure. (I didn't make anything of an Alex connection with that, though.)
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#80 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 02:54 AM
 
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I wasn't quite sure what was up with Rachel (Juliet's sister.) Maybe she'd had radiation treatments before and was sterile? Did anybody see what Juliet was stealing from the lab (and injecting into her sister's belly)? (And did anyone think of Claire getting those injections while pregnant?) I wondered if there was any sperm involved, or how the actual pregnancy happened....Rachel was alone in Miami. The impression was one of isolation, beyond just living alone in her apartment. I guess she could have had a boyfriend or sperm donor/insemination through a clinic, but the latter seems unlikely given her health situation. (Her state when she revealed the pregnancy made me sad, the whole "Now I've just got to get healthy." She seemed happy but very unwell, which gave me a weird feeling.) So I wonder what all Juliet was providing in those injections? Anybody notice the pregnancy test--was it a Widmore Labs product? (And for that matter, what company was Juliet working for???)

Also, Ethan? Creapaholic, man.
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#81 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 03:10 AM
 
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Someone earlier mentioned that a "Jacob" was mentioned on the show before the break.
I see it was jenandavery who mentioned it. Thanks for the reminder--I was wondering about that one when I first heard it, but too much time has gone by and it wasn't up in my consciousness.

Well, now I guess we know there's a second island. (For all the doubters.)

Hey, why didn't Alex go with them in the boat (after Juliet came along)? I think there was some dialog there, but I didn't catch it. (The kettle was boiling and I had to run out and quick turn off the burner.)

Heh-heh moments for me:
Sawyer saying "Nice to meet ya, Sheena."

Juliet looking at the monitors and finding Sawyer and Kate; when she sees Alex is helping them, she says, "Aw, hell."
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#82 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 10:40 AM
 
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Has anybody thought about that with the whole Jacob thing in the brainwashing?

And yes, I thought of Clockwork Orange for sure. (I didn't make anything of an Alex connection with that, though.)
Here is what I am thinking in regards to the Jacob situation. There is a Jacob on the island that is probably the patriarch. He is not always on the island, and his son Ben is in charge while he is not there. I assume the biblical reference was just to give us a frame of mind about the dynamic on the island.

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I wasn't quite sure what was up with Rachel (Juliet's sister.) Maybe she'd had radiation treatments before and was sterile? Did anybody see what Juliet was stealing from the lab (and injecting into her sister's belly)? (And did anyone think of Claire getting those injections while pregnant?) So I wonder what all Juliet was providing in those injections? Anybody notice the pregnancy test--was it a Widmore Labs product? (And for that matter, what company was Juliet working for???)
I hope they tell us more about Juliette's research. She worked at Miami Central University Medical Research Lab. I thought that her treatments were having the body create a womb when none existed (male mouse), and then they used insemination. We never saw any indication of insemination though. The pregnancy test was Widmore labs (the third time we have seen them in the show). The vials only said Test Sample A3993-E3.

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Hey, why didn't Alex go with them in the boat (after Juliet came along)? I think there was some dialog there, but I didn't catch it.
Juliette told Alex that Ben would kill Karl if she (Alex) was not there when he woke up. The only way to save Karl is if Alex stayed.
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#83 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 11:33 AM
 
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I think there is alot more to Alex than we think. She gets away with alot of stuff. Stuff that other people are killed for. Yes, it might have to do with Ben being her "father" but what if she is adopted. What if they did the same type of thing to Russo as juliette did to her sister and Alex is that baby?
If this theory is correct, then that would make since why Alex can never be harmed and the adoption theory as well. Maybe the drugs they gave Russo to become impregnated made her "mad"?

kinda out there but just some thoughts
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#84 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 02:55 PM
 
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What did Jack and Juliette say to each other when she came out of the operating room after talking to Benry? My pet rat walked on the remote control and changed the channel so I missed the end of the scene.
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#85 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 03:34 PM
 
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What did Jack and Juliette say to each other when she came out of the operating room after talking to Benry?
Paraphrasing:

Juliette: I would like you to go back in there, put Ben back under, and finish the surgery.

Jack: Why would I do that?

Juliette: Because I am going to go help your friends escape.
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#86 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 04:56 PM
 
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Ahhh, thanks.
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#87 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 08:25 PM
 
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and then he asked why she would do that, what did Ben say to her to make her want to do that. She responded with Ben said he'd let her leave.
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#88 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 09:40 PM
 
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Love this discussion!!!

I didn't get any of the biblical reference, but it doesn't suprise me. After Mr. Eko and John sat down and had their first discussion about the island at the begining of the second season, and Mr. Eko tells the story about the seperation and reunification of the bible I had a feeling the show would be laced with biblical references.

what a great show, I love that I can still watch it after 3 1/2 years and be on the edge of my seat!
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#89 of 1493 Old 02-09-2007, 09:40 PM
 
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and then he asked why she would do that, what did Ben say to her to make her want to do that. She responded with Ben said he'd let her leave.
That was at the end of the show. I thought she was asking about after Jack left the operating room when Ben wanted to talk to Juliette.
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#90 of 1493 Old 02-10-2007, 03:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jenandavery View Post
Karl's brainwashing scene. It was very similar to "The Ludovico Technique" described in the book (or in the movie).
i thought A Clockwork Orange, too. but that technique isn't exclusive to that book/movie. one never knows with LOST.

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