Options regarding Mandatory Vaccines in France - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 43 Old 07-18-2010, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The diptheria, polio and tetanus vaccines are mandatory in France; however, there is no children's shot currently available that is just for these three vaccines. The DT Polio children's vaccine that used to be on the market got taken off the market in 2008. So as our pediatrician explained it, you have three options:

- - Have your child get the Tetravac, which had vaccines for diptheria, tetanus, polio and pertussis. Tetravac contains aluminium hydroxide, considered a toxin, plus the least effective and most undesirable vaccine - for pertussis.

- Have your child get REVAXIS, which is the adult booster for diptheria, tetanus and polio. This was our pediatrician's recommendation. She says that it has the advantage of being less powerful than the tetravac (but totally sufficient as vaccinations, in her opinion) because it is meant to be only a booster. The disadvantages are that 1) REVAXIS contains about 350 mcg of aluminium hydroxide, an ajuvant and 2) the insert says that it is only to be used on children aged 6 and up, which means that if you use it on your infant and there is a nasty side effect, you have no recourse against the drug manufacturer (or against the state, for that matter).

- Don't have your child vaccinated and have the doctor write a note that the child cannot be vaccinated with DT Polio shot, as the shot has been removed from the market. Since the other brands available cover vaccines that are not obligatory, they are not legally required. The text of the letter reads like this:
Quote:
Attestation de situation vaccinale Au regard de l’Article R3111-17 de la nouvelle partie réglementaire du code de santé publique (“L'admission dans tout établissement d'enfants, à caractère sanitaire ou scolaire, est subordonnée à la présentation soit du carnet de santé, soit des documents en tenant lieu attestant de la situation de l'enfant au regard des vaccinations obligatoires”).

Je soussigné (nom prénom) Docteur en médecine atteste que l’enfant (nom, prénom, date de naissance) ne peut recevoir le vaccin DTP (antidiphtérique, antitétanique, antipoliomyélitique) obligatoire, ce dernier étant indisponible dans les pharmacies en France. Les autres vaccins ne répondent pas au caractère légal de l’obligation vaccinale. Cette situation sera à réexaminer dans un an1
I would be interested to know what others have done and if there are other options. I would be okay with skipping the vaccines and getting the letter but my DH is adamant that our son should be vaccinated for tetanus and polio at the very least. Are there other countries where the DT Polio vaccine is still available? Are there other brands in other countries that have a shot with just those three vaccines? Has anyone thought of other options?

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#2 of 43 Old 07-19-2010, 01:22 PM
 
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I had precisely that discussion with the in house pediatrician at the day care my youngest attends, pointing out that it' s not "legal" , "fair", "normal" that only 3 vaccinations are compulsory yet only the combined 5 is available to buy for babies .... which means that it's not even a question of informed consent it's a question of forced sale , people who don't object are being unknowingly forced to inject more than legally necessary

I don't recall exactly the age cut off but I was told that there is one version that is available for a certain age group only
sorry I can't remember more, my own child was not concerned, I was just talking generally and trying to find out what was what (being sometimes asked questions by foreign friends arriving in our area ..)

end result = I was told (is that true ? I didn't see it in writing !) that there is a way to ORDER by special order just the vaccinations for only the 3 compulsory ones BUT the doctor has to fill in a lot of paperwork in order to justify the special order .... therefore they don't do it and omit do say they can do it ...

am very interested to see what others have to say, what has been possible to achieve in France regarding select or no vaccinations (since am shocked by the sales tactics -in my eyes- of doctors over here who are really pushing for blanket vaccinations for everything ...)
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#3 of 43 Old 08-05-2010, 02:49 PM
 
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Thanks for this great information - I'm not dealing with this issue yet, but it's good to have a sense of what I'll have to contend with. At what age were they wanting you to vaccinate your infant?
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#4 of 43 Old 08-05-2010, 06:52 PM
 
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well, for my first baby I wanted to enrol at "les bébé nageurs" when she was just over 5 months old so I had a "classic" schedule I suppose with one combined shot every month at about about 2, 3 and 4 months ... so that I could provide proof of vaccination for registering at the swimming pool.

if you don't intend to place your child in any kind of group activity, I should think that you should be able to find some doctors who will NOT pressurise you to vaccinate so early .... you might well have to repeat several times your basic statement if the doctors you meet have not yet had patients who made the choices you are making

... but then being a foreigner, you can always use that good point "where I come from, we have options, not everybody rushes to vaccinate, we prefer to follow this schedule, we are not prepared to hurry on that matter ...." they can discuss/try to pressurise you about schedules if they are so sure that theirs is the only opinion that matters BUT anyway they cannot have a final say when you talk about what is done where you come from .... do take adavantage of that !
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#5 of 43 Old 08-08-2010, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The first shot for diptheria, tetanus, polio and pertussis is normally at two months, although I believe the law stipulates no later than 18 months or when the child enters a collectivity, if earlier.

De facto, you can wait until your child enters school if you avoid doctors who pressure.

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#6 of 43 Old 08-27-2010, 08:26 AM
 
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This is interesting. We will be in a similar situation soon. dd2 will be one too. I too am fine with skipping vaxes but dh is also adamant abotu the dt and polio. Thisis what we did for dd1 in the US too. Our homeopath is really against vaxing young if you don't need to and he doesn't like combined vaxes so maybe he will help us out. If I find anything out I will let you know.

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#7 of 43 Old 08-27-2010, 04:07 PM
 
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I'll be glad to hear about your experience too !

I have a friend with a new born who asked me this precise question last week and didn't feel well informed enough ...so 'I'll keep checking this thread !
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#8 of 43 Old 12-12-2010, 06:57 AM
 
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Hi does any one have a link where it is stated the necessity of the BCG for collectivité - my friend is having problems with her school, personally I thought that the Ile-de-France was not an area of high risk - and certainly that is what I used for not vaccinating our ds but she's having problems coming up with something concrete - anyone have any ideas? I'd be most grateful to know there is anything like this available.


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#9 of 43 Old 12-12-2010, 09:35 AM
 
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in that link

http://vaccinbcg.canalblog.com/archives/2009/04/23/13483479.html

I think that they tell you where not to go to get the official text because it doesn't work in the end although it's supposed to be the right address

so DO read until the end to make sure you copy and paste the right link

 

En conséquence, le ROR, le vaccin contre la coqueluche et le BCG par exemples ne peuvent être exigés pour l'entrée d'un enfant en collectivité. Seuls, les vaccins contre la diphtérie, la polio et le tétanos peuvent être exigés.

Pour le BCG il n'est pas nécessaire d'aller chercher cet arrêt du Conseil d'État car la circulaire n° DGS/RI1/2007/318 du 14 août 2007 permet de régler plus simplement le problème. Elle ne peut être copiée mais est en ligne sur le site des circulaires en vigueur (http://www.circulaires.gouv.fr/) et on peut l'imprimer.

 

Cependant il semble qu'il y ait des difficultés pour l'obtenir avec l'adresse pourtant exacte  de la page de cette circulaire mais qui se transforme en une autre adresse quand on l'utilise !!!

Voici cette adresse à ne pas utiliser :

http://www.circulaires.gouv.fr/pdf/2009/04/cir_15075.pdf

Pour obtenir la circulaire, utilisez celle-ci qui vous demandera de cliquer sur un lien du site des circulaires gouvernementales :

http://www.circulaires.gouv.fr/index.php?action=afficherCirculaire&hit=7

 

 

I'm in a hurry, I tried quickly but couldn't find it, hope you'll find what you need with the "pistes "above ....

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#10 of 43 Old 01-06-2011, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have heard of anti-vax generalists and pediatricians who will simply mark in the carnet de santé that your child has been given a vaccine even though he/she hasn't.  I think the doctor has you buy the vaccine and then the doctor opens it but doesn't inject it into your child.   Has anyone else heard of this happening?  


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#11 of 43 Old 01-07-2011, 12:06 PM
 
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yes, it's called "un certificat de complaisance" & I had a few of these when I grew up, on and off , only on some years, for some activities I was enrolled in, so it does exist, except that doctors don't boast about it of course,... knowing someone who has gone that road & asking them who signed it for them .... is the way to go.

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#12 of 43 Old 01-22-2011, 01:04 AM
 
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My daughter had only the DTP but in two shots so it IS possible despite hearing from everyone in France that it isnt.  We got our doctor to call the pharmacy to order the DT in one shot (already available everywhere) and she ordered the polio shot seperately.  I think she ordered todler shots but lower doses for our 9 month old, although I'm not sure on that one.  We had to wait a good two weeks for the polio to be made especially.  I find the French often like to say obligatoire but its not often the case...

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#13 of 43 Old 07-01-2012, 12:53 PM
 
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MANDATORY?

I am amazed how this word is being banded around so glibly on this thread—as if we are already resigned to the notion of vaccines being forced on our kids.

 

We always have a choice. Nobody, not even those wearing white coats with pHDs, can force you to have your child vaccinated—therefore vaccines are NOT mandatory. Capiche?

Sure, state agencies may threaten you with denying your child access to certain services, but that is not tantamount to making it a mandatory requirement.

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#14 of 43 Old 07-08-2012, 10:39 AM
 
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Everest, where do you live ? in some countries, if you want to enrol in anything like school, swimming class, etc ... you need to show an up to date certificate showing when you had the mandatory/compulsory shots .....

not everybody on this board lives in the US, & religious exemptions don't necessarily exist in every country ....
 

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#15 of 43 Old 08-04-2012, 05:47 AM
 
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I live on planet Earth where free will prevails. Now, if you ask me where the statute exists that guarantees our right to exercise our free will, only a short period of reflection should be sufficient to reveal the absurdity of such an enquiry. As I already said, dangling the anti-carrot of denial of certain state services is not tantamount to a mandatory requirement. If we start thinking along those lines, just imagine how malleable our species would become! (Food for thought indeed!)

If we really want to do the right thing by our kids, start thinking like responsible adults. 



"To desire freedom is an instinct. To secure it requires intelligence. It must be comprehended and self—asserted. To petition for it is to stulify oneself, for a petitioner is a confessed subject and lacks the spirit of a freeman. To rail and rant against tyranny is to manifest inferiority, for there is no tyranny but ignorance; to be conscious of one's powers is to lose consciousness of tyranny. Self government is not a remote aim. It is an intimate and inescapable fact. To govern oneself is a natural imperative, and all tyranny is the miscarriage of self government. The first requisite of freedom is to accept responsibility for the lack of it."
 
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#16 of 43 Old 08-09-2012, 03:19 PM
 
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Wow, you are rude.

The vaccinations mentioned are mandatory FOR ATTENDANCE AT SCHOOL.  That is all.  No huge conspiracy, even if some of us don't love that particular policy.


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#17 of 43 Old 08-13-2012, 08:28 AM
 
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Babymonster,

 

I take exception to being called "rude." I have merely been factual. 

 

When we communicate with each other via text alone we invariably hear the other's "voice" with an arguable degree of our own projected bias. That you have deemed my comments as "rude" when nothing insulting, coarse, vulgar, unpleasant or harsh has been written by myself is, I'd wager, an instance of such projection.

Now, to return to the point in hand: "Mandatory" and "Mandatory IF you wish for your child to attend a state-funded institution" are not the same thing and should be distinguished as such, lest the casual reader is misguided.

Respectfully, 

 

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#18 of 43 Old 08-13-2012, 01:54 PM
 
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If we really want to do the right thing by our kids, start thinking like responsible adults. 

 

This was what I found to be rude.  Perhaps I misunderstood, but this comment is not "merely factual".


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#19 of 43 Old 08-13-2012, 03:38 PM
 
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Thanks for the clarification Babymonster. Perhaps stating an axiom (i.e. that we, as adults, need to take responsibility for our children) as a rhetorical imperative could be construed as rude, especially if viewed in isolation. However, when placed in the context of the earlier comments that misattributed the term "mandatory" to vaccinations in France, I felt that this was worth re-stating. There is a certain deference to state institutions that I find most insipid. If it takes a little of what you call "rudeness" to jolt a few "sleeping adults" from their slumber, then so be it.

Anyway - apologies for coming across as curt. Probably just my Internet alter-ego getting a bit too frisky for its own good. ;-) Peace.

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#20 of 43 Old 08-14-2012, 02:10 PM
 
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Everest, .... when you write "Capiche ?" in italics ...you do come accross as rather abrupt, borderline rude ....

 

but well, then, i'm not a native speaker of english .... are you yourself ?

surely, you could have managed to convey your point/meaning in maybe ... a less disdainful way ?

& writing "respectfully" at the end of a post .... doesn't help much in changing the perception that readers might have had of you and your written style after reading what's written above it ....

 

it is a fact that english is spoken by so many different people from differnent countries (American english vs English as spoken in the UK .... as well as by all the people who speak english as a second or third or fourth language .....) that of course, there's going to be some variation in the way words are used & not everybody is going to use the "long form" as in "mandatory IF you wish your child to attend ...."

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#21 of 43 Old 08-14-2012, 03:47 PM
 
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Pause for a moment. Take a deep breath. Now .... know deep in your hearts that I think you're all beautiful, sensitive and intelligent creatures. Take a moment to really let that sink in.

Feeling all warm n' fuzzy again here at Mothering.com? Good. I'm really happy for y'all.

 

Right, now let's return to the topic.

 

So — we have established that the opening statement of this thread:

"The diptheria, polio and tetanus vaccines are mandatory in France" is actually incorrect or, at least, incomplete.


I don't think I'm splitting hairs here. It's not a question of "the long form" or "the short form" - just the "factually complete and correct form" which is what I'm trying to exact here. Given that this thread may well be perused by those living outside of France who are unfamiliar with its legal system and human rights record, and are perhaps embarking upon some research as part of a consideration of whether or not to move to the country, the thread title "Options regarding mandatory vaccinations in France" contains an intrinsic and misleading assumption—whether inadvertent or otherwise.

If I were to ask you:

"Do you use your forehand or backhand when you slap your wife repeatedly for being oversensitive?"
 

it's clear that there are several assumptions in the question that perhaps need to be addressed first before any answer is attempted. If, for instance, you were asked this question and you weren't married, or you were but you slapped your wife repeatedly for other reasons, you may voice an exception to this question.

Similarly, I would take exception to my "options" regarding my child's "mandatory" vaccinations in France being listed in terms of pharmaceutical products. 

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#22 of 43 Old 08-15-2012, 12:04 AM
 
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Everest, i have the impression that you come in this discussion .... just to annoy people .... is my impression correct ?

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#23 of 43 Old 08-15-2012, 01:44 AM
 
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No. That's not the only reason.   ;-)

I am a Brit who has been living in France for a year. My partner and I are expecting our first child in a few weeks. Our doctor here barely speaks a word of English and our French is rudimentary at best—so it's been tricky discovering the facts regarding childbirth in France.

Recently we met an English-speaking midwife who has been really wonderful. We told her that we were still "on the fence" regarding vaccines and asked her for some pointers to help us better research the topic. 

I'm glad we raised the issue with her. For instance, I was under the impression that our child's first "scheduled vaccination" was not until they were 8 weeks old. She informed us that hospitals often seek to administer BCG before the baby leaves the hospital. As a result, we have specified "No vaccinations are to be given" on our birth plan (which we have translated into French to minimize the potential for communication difficulties.)

One of my central concerns is not the efficacy of vaccines but their timing and risks of adverse side-effects on a case-by-case (per vaccine) basis. Eight weeks (let alone a few days) just seems very, very early to be sticking needles into a new body. During the course of researching our options, I came across this thread at Mothering.com. 


While some vaccines appear to be safer than others, we should note that each vaccination carries a certain amount of risk. In turn, this risk can be increased by biological and environmental factors (e.g. quality of diet), timing, and the combined effects of receiving multiple vaccines administered at once.

I hope that we can come together to share what we know (or think we know) and become more collectively edified on this topic. It's emotive enough without us trying to second-guess each other's motives for participation. Please let's just stick to the facts.

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#24 of 43 Old 08-15-2012, 08:48 AM
 
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Please Everest, talk again with your english speaking midwife & ask her if she has any more recent information regarding the issue or if indeed she is sure of her facts .....

 

 i have NEVER met ANY parent who gave birth in France (only lived 7 years in UK and 3 years in USA, the rest in France) to whose child ANY vaccination was done in hospital before leaving after giving birth ....

vaccination does start at 2 months of age, IF the parent goes to the doctor and get a prescription THEN goes to the pharmacist to buy said vaccineTHEN keeps said vaccine vials in the fridge THEN goes back to the doctor to get the vaccination administered ...

=> it is VERY unlikely that anybody would administer a vaccination in your back whilst you are in hospital

 

... the way your write, you seem very frightened about the situation ... and you remind me of a British family i met over 20 years ago ... who loved stopping at fast food places usually but wouldn't stop by in any in France during their holiday because they were worried that they would be served horse meat in their burgers ...... (=horse meat being more expensive, = VERY unlikely !!!!)

 

may i ask which area of France you are in ? (pm me if you like)

i might be able to help you by searching on-line for ressources local to you where people speak at least a little english ...

 

+ my youngest is 5 and never had the BCG because it's been phased out for babies since my older children were born

i understand that you feel happy to have met a health care professional who speaks your language, .... but from what you say in the previous post, i have the impression that the "facts" you were told .... are not quite accurate ....

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#25 of 43 Old 08-15-2012, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IsaFrench View Post

 

vaccination does start at 2 months of age, IF the parent goes to the doctor and get a prescription THEN goes to the pharmacist to buy said vaccineTHEN keeps said vaccine vials in the fridge THEN goes back to the doctor to get the vaccination administered ...

 

Yes, this.

BCG was never mentioned to me at all.  It is listed in the vaccine schedule we were given, but is only suggested for high risk families.  IME no-one seems to be too concerned if you want to delay or skip vaccines - the only problem would be when/if you wanted to enroll your child in school.


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#26 of 43 Old 08-16-2012, 05:04 AM
 
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Thanks for your responses. We live in Roussillon. I spoke to the midwife last week so perhaps things have changed since you had your last child five years ago Isa? I am not suggesting that the hospital would attempt to administer a vaccine without parental consent but I'll certainly double-check with her in case I got the wrong end of the stick!

 

In any case, my partner and I remain 100% confident in our ability to exercise our will when it comes to the myriad of options for raising our children and, as such, we are not prone to fear and dark imaginings about it. twins.gif

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#27 of 43 Old 08-16-2012, 06:52 AM
 
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read this, especially page 25 and page 34

http://www.vaccination-idf.fr/documents/presentations/BCG_et_enfants_IDF.pdf

 

it does explain that BCG was stopped for the general population in 2007

BUT that there's a strong prevalence still in the Paris area for children whose parents come from certain countries

 

it does say, page 6, that the W.H.O. (O.M.S in French) recommends a single dose, at birth or when first in contact with a health care professional

for "les pays d'endémicité tuberculeuse élevée"

 

SO, it is quite possible that in the Paris area, babies from populations at risk, are being injected shortly after birth & before leaving the hospital

.... and i do not know how much information is given to parents in that case

 

from what  i heard beforehand from other sources, BCG is only recommended in "ile de France" & since you live in Roussillon ....

 

(unless your area has recently seen a stong influx of population from Roumania or other former eastern bloc countries ???

who live outside in poor conditions and are making the local health authorities re-think their options and "push" for more vaccination coverage lately ?)

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#28 of 43 Old 08-18-2012, 02:32 PM
 
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Thriving traveller community in these parts plus other settlers from northern Africa - not sure what they brought in their couscous but I'm going to take my chances. :-)

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#29 of 43 Old 08-18-2012, 03:18 PM
 
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not so much couscous eating population, the document i refered to showed a map of the world outlining principaly the southern half of Africa (+ mentionned on another page that the prevalence is rising in "les pays de l' Est")

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#30 of 43 Old 09-04-2012, 05:13 AM
 
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Thanks for all your help.

Our little baby boy was born last Tuesday (28th August) - all went really well! :-) :-)

8 pounds, 13 ounces. Full head of soft black hair. He's adorable! :-) :-)

Everest is offline  
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