What ISN"T considered CLW? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-08-2007, 06:03 PM
 
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Good points Mamamoo.
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Old 02-08-2007, 06:05 PM
 
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Thank you mamas for the pats on my back : That truly means alot to me!

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-08-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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I just wanted to add that I don't want any mother to be scared away because her process of child-led weaning is different than the process of another.

Plain and simple, this forum is here to give and receive support for all of us.

I don't want to feel guilty, or that I don't belong here (or outright told), for having night-weaned or placed limits any more than a mama does who didn't. I used to feel defensive and shunned (and I even went into a major guilt-trip full of excuses and explanations) when other mamas would mention that they firmly believe in no limits whatsoever and that night-weaning is absolutely not in line with CLW. Should those threads have been removed because I was offended and that their definition of clw wasn't in line with mine? Of course not. I learned how to tolerate other opinions and take it for what it was. Someone else's definition, not mine. I learned how subjective the process of child-led weaning really is. I think this issue makes all of us question ourselves, perhaps, and that's not the point of the forum. The most important thing is that we are all here for the same reason, to trust our children to decide when their breastfeeding needs have been fully and ultimately met. THAT is what brings us together.

I don't think threads asking for support for placing (and having placed) some gentle limits (and in this forum gentle is to be expected!) in order to continue breastfeeding is any more offensive than a thread from a mama who wants support for not placing any limits, kwim? If we choose to visit a thread that contains content that doesn't fit our ideals, then we risk having our feathers ruffled and feelings hurt. We've all btdt and we learn to tolerate and respect one another's differences, or at least to stay out of those threads.

We don't all fit into one mold. I don't think anybody at Mothering fits into the same mold! To expect it, either way (limits, no limits, certain limits, etc.), is not fair or kind to any of us and will undoubtedly leave mamas, who are in desperate need of support, out in the cold and on their own.

This forum is here to give mamas support to continue breastfeeding until their child is ready to wean on her/his own. Advice on how to gently limit so the mama can keep her sanity may be totally different on BBI than it would be here. For example, can you imagine a mother going to BBI for advice on how to place some gentle limits on her 4 year-old? She might fall into the same place I was a few years ago on Extended Nursing when I received support but also criticism at the same time, but even worse because she wouldn't be among the friends she is used to receiving support from. Or, for another example, could you imagine myself asking for support (perhaps in my decision to go on a trip, thus limiting my dd's nursing needs) in the BBI forum when I was nursing my 7 year old? Where would I belong? There, because I was placing some serious limits on my dd's nursing, or here in CLWing because I still fully intended to continue when I returned? kwim?

CLW should be a safe-haven regardless of how a mama defines her child's journey (limits, no limits, etc.). We don't all have to accept one another's way as our own in order to receive support here. And we shouldn't make a mama worried that she is going to offend because she mentioned gentle night-weaning any more than making another mama worried about offending others because she doesn't believe in night-weaning. If this is the place she receives support, and she has developed friendships here, why should she have to go elsewhere, where she doesn't know anyone, just because she doesn't fully conform to another mama's way of thinking, kwim?

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Old 02-09-2007, 06:04 AM
 
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THat is the part that is kind of sad. I think it is important for other clw mamas to know that it is ok to set limits(including nuightweaning), if that is what they need. If it is only allowed on the other forum, they might not see that it's ok, that their child will be ok(done in a loving, respectful manner, of course), and that it is very important to find a way to keep clw working for their family, whether it fits under the strigent "rules" of some clw...and unfortunately for some of us that does mean setting limits and nightweaning.

I also wonder why someone should expect snarky comments. What purpose does that serve? If someone is coming here looking for support with limits so they can continue to clw shouldn't they be met with compassion and understanding, and gently directed to the appropriate forum(if that is the case)? Do we want people to be afraid to post? CLW does indeed have a spectrum, depending on the child, his/her age, family dynamics/needs. It seems out of place on a board lik mdc to have this set of rules, and only if you are under those rules are you clw. It just doesn't seem right to me(and not just because I do place limits). Just like anything in life it can't really be black and wwhite, there is always that gray area, there is always the exception...
I just don't want mamas to be scared off, and I need a place to come for support too...I will be nursing three come this August, just when I thought I had doen it all.

And ITA about the don't offer/don't refuse. If I had offered I would have been nursing... oh all day long up until this past summer (2.5-3). Now the only time I offer is when she is woken from her nap (so she doesn't stay up until midnight.. fights it like crazy but often doesn't want to leave the comfort of a warm bed ). She will often throw a monumental tantrum and when she takes a breath I'll remind her when she's ready she can nurse. Even now without offering we're doing 6-8x/day most days.. less if we're really busy. That's not including nights. : And I've had to refuse a few times, esp during pms episodes, where it started to hurt like crazy and I really got angry... hormones I swear! As I said on another thread- the limits and 'rules' I use make it so she truly can lead the way and I keep my sanity (and am starting to get a bit more sleep after 4.5 yrs of interupted sleep). I think perhaps clw is like anything else... there is a spectrum of what it encompasses, and everyone on this board falls somewhere on it. And yes, I don't post much on the beyond infancy board, because this is where my heart lies, and with the older nurslings (not found nearly as much on that board) I feel far more at home. Perhaps if there was a nursing ages 1-2/2-4 board I might feel more at home on the 2-4 board but we can't overwhelm mothering. LOL!
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Old 02-09-2007, 12:01 PM
 
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I honestly think this thread should be made a STICKY in this forum. So many mamas think breastfeeding (and CLW especially) comes with a list of must-do's and hard-and-fast rules, and it's both refreshing and encouraging to see BTDT mamas who fully embrace CLW but without the angst and list-checking. I think this thread would encourage more mamas to consider CLW.

Could we start a petition for a sticky?
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Old 02-09-2007, 03:17 PM
 
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i was thinking the same thing, periwinkle.
this would make a lovely sticky.
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Old 02-09-2007, 04:07 PM
 
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For me, I don't think children under 2 can CLW. I think fair enough if mama wants to take an active role in weaning a toddler - but it's not CLW.

I know I personally tried my very hardest to get my DS to keep nursing after he decided to wean at 23 months, and I'm not saying I tried for a few days or a few weeks, I continued trying for 7 months, every single day...I tried nursing him at night thinking maybe I could trick him into nursing (it worked at 11 months the first time he decided to wean...for like 2 1/2 months the only nursing he did was in his sleep when I was able to trick him)...I offered all the time, he would laugh at me...I kept trying. I was still making plenty of milk since my dd (3 1/2 at the time he weaned) was still nursing.

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Old 02-09-2007, 04:25 PM
 
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Subbing to this thread.

I am nursing a 3-1/2 year old. I do limit sometimes, but no specific rules. It's more along the lines of if I am feeling touched out or irritable, I'll ask DD to wait until I can calm down.

ITA that CLW is a two-way relationship. I don't want to be resentful of DD's nursing so if I need a break, I try to take a few minutes to get my head together before nursing.

I'm sure there is lots I could add here but it will have to wait until I have more time.

I am a 40 year old unschooling, belly dancing, artist-mama of one almost 8 year old. I just had brain surgery and blogging.jpg about it a bit because it's just so surreal.
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Old 02-09-2007, 04:42 PM
 
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i didn't mean to suggest that *i* felt that way... in fact, for me and DD, it was best that i gently encourage her to wean at age 3. we talked about it for about 6 months, planned a big party, and we never looked back. i had planned to allow her to CLW, but after 10 months of tandeming with her brother, i felt it was what needed to happen so that i could be the best mom i could be. and it was. i had also needed to night-wean her and limit her nursing during pregnancy because the lack of milk was causing her to become hysterical when she nursed (particularly at night) and so we cut it back to only the most important comfort sessions so that she could enjoy them and not be upset by them.

i have just personally experienced (and witnessed) a general lack of support for things like night-weaning and limit-setting in this forum (not from everyone, but definitely from some), where that has not been the case in BF'ing Beyond Infancy. Thus, in order that someone get the most support and the least amount of guilt when placing limits or what-have-you, it seemed like the best place to advise someone to post such inquiries.
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Old 02-09-2007, 04:53 PM
 
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i was thinking the same thing, periwinkle.
this would make a lovely sticky.
I agree

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Old 02-09-2007, 09:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Periwinkle View Post
I honestly think this thread should be made a STICKY in this forum. So many mamas think breastfeeding (and CLW especially) comes with a list of must-do's and hard-and-fast rules, and it's both refreshing and encouraging to see BTDT mamas who fully embrace CLW but without the angst and list-checking. I think this thread would encourage more mamas to consider CLW.

Could we start a petition for a sticky?
PM the mods and ask.
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Old 02-11-2007, 03:00 PM
 
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Okay, all of the below are IMO.....

These are not CLW:
nightweaning
significant limits (ie no nursing away from home)
don't offer/don't refuse
offering significant other milk or sucking

Depending on the age and the individual child, weaning while pregnant may not be CLW.

-Angela
iagree but i think dodr isnt clw if the mother tries to distract the child and then say "well i didnt refuse him!"

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Old 02-11-2007, 05:14 PM
 
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Just PM'd a mod!
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Old 02-11-2007, 07:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alegna
Okay, all of the below are IMO.....

These are not CLW:
nightweaning
significant limits (ie no nursing away from home)
don't offer/don't refuse
offering significant other milk or sucking

Depending on the age and the individual child, weaning while pregnant may not be CLW.

-Angela
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Originally Posted by CalebsMama05 View Post
iagree but i think dodr isnt clw if the mother tries to distract the child and then say "well i didnt refuse him!"
Ok but what age are you talking about? 9 months? 12 months? 24 months? 3 years? 5 years? I think that make a big difference.

If my 3 year old wanted milk (and wasn't allergic to it) I don't think that offering her any ammount of milk in any form would have any impact on her nursing. She hasn't ever thought that nursing was equal to any sort of food source (even though even now at 3 year old I still make plenty of milk to feel a let down when she nurses and for her to tell me when the nursies are empty).

If I didn't distract her at times I wouldn't get anything else done. It is the interaction that she reaches for first between us, but it doesn't mean that every time she is asking to nurse that it is what she really wants. Sometimes she just can't think of what else to do. Like an adult that eats because they are bored. A gentle suggestion from me often helps her see that there is other entertainment and ways to aleviate boredome and she happily pursues them. Sometimes she really does want to nurse and then I nurse her, usually. Sometimes I ask her to wait. Sometimes she asks me to wait for certain things. But she is 3 and can function like this. She couldn't when she was 12 months old and I didn't expect her to.

I agree with those who say that this list of rules just is to make some of you pat yourselves on your backs and look down at others. What would you call a family that ultimately lets the child decide when they are doing nursing altogether but does put restrictions on it? Does it matter if they continue past a certain age? Does it become legitamate clw if the child ultimately weans at 5 after being night weaned at 2 but not if they weaned at 3?

It is kinda funny that this got me so upset. We haven't night weaned. I rarely tell my dd no. We still nip although I do draw the line at walking arround nursing her. My back just can't take that anymore (she is as big as most 4 year olds). I have a couple of other specific nursing rules, like I don't nurse her durring dinner anymore. And at church I just nurse durring the prayers (I can't sing very well while she is latched on, she is so heavy). I also don't stop half way to the park to nurse her sitting on the side walk. I don't pull the car over half way home to nurse her. I don't let dinner burn so that I can nurse her (unless she is injured). These are all times that dd has asked to nurse in the recent past. (some were today). Am I not a clw-er because I put these limits on her? Hard to tell from some of your posts.

I do have a friend who says that her 13 month old self weaned. Well she was mama led weaned down to 1 nursing a day at that point and she finally just quit on her own. I don't personally consider her to have self weaned (not that I talk to my friend about that at all, she knew I didn't agree with her mama led approach but we never discussed it). But there is a huge difference between her and a mama who gently night weans her 2 year old (and otherwise keeps nursing her) or a mama who can't take the criticism so she stops nip-ing her 3 year old or whatever the circumstances are.

I'm just rambling at this point. My point is that if we set the bar too high. If we make it too difficult to acheive we might just convince some mama's that if they need to night wean they might just as well do it all the way since it is pratically the same thing.

Ok I'm done.

Patty wife to Jason Mama to Wisteria (6) and Junia (2)
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Old 02-11-2007, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Periwinkle View Post
I honestly think this thread should be made a STICKY in this forum. So many mamas think breastfeeding (and CLW especially) comes with a list of must-do's and hard-and-fast rules, and it's both refreshing and encouraging to see BTDT mamas who fully embrace CLW but without the angst and list-checking. I think this thread would encourage more mamas to consider CLW.

Could we start a petition for a sticky?
That would be the first time a thread I started got stickied!

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Old 02-11-2007, 08:24 PM
 
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I this thread! It makes me feel more "normal" about setting limits with my almost-3yo, while still continuing to nurse her.
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Old 02-11-2007, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much, everyone! I'm feeling so much more comfortable, and as if I've FINALLY found some other mothers who understand!

I have very rarely ever had to offer nursing to either of my boys. If I offered, I would NEVER get off the couch! And if I never refused my 3 yo, I think I would've committed a capital crime by now.

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Old 02-15-2007, 02:30 PM
 
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Pattyla~ I could have written your post.

The nursing relationship just natually evolves and changes so much as they get older. I never really thought of it as being rules more of a dance as we grew together. I think one of the best things about nursing is how the relationship keeps changing to meet the child's needs. There is reciprocity because moms' needs are met as well. From time to time things don't work as well and we find ways to make adjustments to get back into balance again.
To me CLW is that we are open to this relationship and to letting it evolve over time while also understanding how important the breast is to the child, not just for nutrition but also for psychological emotional needs.

ETA: I don't nightwean but I don't wake up and roll over very fast for a four year old KWIM, they have to climb over top of me and find their own way to the breast. I know my children and I can tell by the way that they are asking if this is an urgent need or if I can put it off. If my toddler is injured I offer the breast first but by preschooler age I am offering the band-aids, ice pack, cold rag and a drink first and then if they ask for boob I give it. As I sense their ability to move on to other methods of comfort then I try to make that work first. Not sure how others might view this but I think it is important that I offer my children a variety of tools that they can use as they enter school age so that they can self comfort or accept comfort from others. I never leave my babies but I find by the time they are three and four they are ready to have some time away from me and I want them to feel confident during those times.
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Old 02-15-2007, 02:40 PM
 
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I also, as AngelBee pointed out, had a toddler who weaned early. I fully believe he CLW, and he has always been that kind of kid - he's very active, very into his surroundings, and I think at some point, he was just bored with it all. He didn't need the comfort of the breast anymore, and it was simply that easy for him. It was much more difficult for me, because he was only 16 months. We had a horrendous time in the beginning, and after overcoming a zillion problems and establishing a successful BFing relationship, I was determined to go as long as he wanted - I set small goals for myself to get through the rough beginning, and my next goal was 18 months, at which time I would decide to go to 2 or not, but I was already decided that I wanted to make it to at least 2, and then go from there.

When one day, he absolutely refused the breast, I decided to try some nursing strike techniques, but no matter what I did, he was really and truly finished. At that point, it felt like forcing him to continue, and I had a terrible feeling about that - I *knew* in my mommy instincts that he was certain about his decision. Forcing the situation would have created a combative relationship about it, and how in the world could that be beneficial? And, in my heart of hearts, I knew that forcing him into continuing to breastfeed would be all about me and it would not be respecting his wishes.

That said, I've seen it said here a number of times that there's no way a child that young could self-wean, and it makes me feel judged, and honestly, really crummy. (I'm not picking on you, thismama, I see your thoughtful and kind post after Angelbee posted her story.) I just wanted to give you my experience as a way of thinking that perhaps there is a small segment of children who know at an earlier age than most CLWers that they are ready to end the relationship, no matter how sad it makes mama.

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Old 02-16-2007, 06:37 AM
 
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I guess I am only partially CLW - I've done almost all the no no's on the list. LOL.

I night weaned my daughter at 16 months (she nursed every hour and I couldn't sleep through it anymore, I was going crazy.)
She used a pacifier up until 2 years old
She started drinking water from a sippy at 9 months
We rarely nurse in public (stopped at about 20 months or so, my own hangups)
I limit nursing

With that being said I don't plan on *weaning* her until she is ready, KWIM? She is still nursing strong and wouldn't give up her "nee nee's" for anything in the world. She is 2. And all of the things we've done haven't slowed her down a bit, they've just helped me maintain my sanity and my desire to continue our nursing relationship.

It's good to see that people are willing to be open minded about it. Ideally, I'd like to feel comfortable without the limits/weaning that we have done but realistically it didn't work out that way. I'm just glad that my daughter has a strong enough desire to nurse that my tactics have been futile. LOL.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:43 AM
 
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in a way i think so much of it is semantic. so many of the "rules" arbitrary. i mean, for instance, DD sucked her fingers - i never gave her an artificial nipple/pacifier, but probably only because there was always a finger in her mouth

and i think it's easy to to allow yourself to feel bad based on these semantic differences - oh no! i night-weaned her because two years of no sleep was oddly having a detrimental affect on me... now even if i nurse her till she's 6 i failed CLW'ing! :

i think what truly distinguishes CLW from mama-led weaning is at the core of it the *intent* of the mama. simply, do you intend to let the child ultimately decide when s/he is done, or do you intend to encourage (or even push) the process?

and let's not forget, even if you *do* gently encourage the process, it doesn't mean you're a failure. it just isn't CLW. i nursed my DD till she was 3, almost half of that was through pregnancy and in tandem with her brother. ultimately i felt i needed to direct her weaning, but i still feel very proud of nursing her for 3 years and no one is going to make me feel guilty that i didn't do it longer. it's what worked for us, and ultimately, that's the most important thing. listening to your heart, and doing what works for you and your child in this very individual and personal relationship.
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:49 PM
 
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and let's not forget, even if you *do* gently encourage the process, it doesn't mean you're a failure. it just isn't CLW. .
Help me understand this? How do you handle the roadbumps that come up then? Do you just allow things like nipple twidling to go on until your child no longer feels the need? I think I am not getting what you are saying. I am not trying to get my children to stop nursing but when things come up that are not working then I do try to get them to stop those behaviors and I want them to learn to self soothe at preschooler age. I will still nurse but I don't want to do it twenty times a day or in public unless there is a really compelling reason.
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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i was basically saying that sometimes people get so upset and defensive when someone says they're not CLW'ing, but they shouldn't. even if it *isn't* CLW'ing, or someone's definition of what they think that is, i think everyone here is trying to do the best for their kids, even if that does mean that gentle mommy-led weaning is sometimes what needs to happen.

i thought i'd CLW w/DD but ultimately i did encourage weaning - DD and I together decided that she would have a weaning party on her 3rd birthday, and that was that. she asked once or twice a few days later, but didn't seem upset when i reminded her we didn't do that anymore. it wasn't child-led, it was certainly my idea - but based on me feeling she was ready for it. and afterwards i was able to be much more 'present' in parenting her - i enjoyed cuddling her and reading to her and doing things together so much more than i had been enjoying nursing her, and i think it was the best thing for both of us at that point in our relationship. was it CLW'ing? nope. was it gentle and loving and only done when she was ready? yup. am i going to feel guilty that i didn't meet someone else's standard of what i should've done? no way.

i just want those who are considering some gentle encouragement of weaning to realize that they're still doing right by their kids if they're listening to their child's needs, as well as honoring their own. sometimes i think people act like anything short of 100% on-demand BF'ing until the child gives it up of their own accord may as well have been formula feeding from birth. and that sucks. extended nursing, no matter what limitations and things need to be placed on it, needs to be nurtured and encouraged, not criticized and condemned for not meeting some undefinable "ideal."

BTW - stopping twiddling has nothing, IMO, to do with encouraging weaning. that's just teaching some manners. guidelines and learning to wait and nursing manners IMO aren't a part of the weaning process, they're just teaching a child to be a pleasant partner in the relationship. i was specifically addressing actual weaning efforts - like in my situation.
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:34 PM
 
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I totally agree, and boy can ideals change with the addition of more kids, or when the situation is not working.

My ideals have been so high in the past that it actually made me a bad mom. I was beating myself up all the time about things I really had no control over. Totally not worth it. I am now trying to be more balanced, and do what works for the relationship, not just what my played up idea of it should be...

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Old 02-16-2007, 04:49 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamamoo View Post
I totally agree, and boy can ideals change with the addition of more kids,


yup
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:50 PM
 
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Sounds like we feel the same way. We just totally need to support mamas who are nursing and respect how they work out their relationships.
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:53 PM
 
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My child isn't as old (she just turned 2) as a lot of people that have posted here, but I am planning on doing CLW and I have done many of the things on the list of "no-no's".

I never have to offer because she always just helps herself. I leave it up to her to ask me when she wants it. And I have refused before - like while I am sitting on the toilet. She asks ALL THE TIME so if I never refused, I would never take a shower, go to the bathroom, etc. She even wants me to nurse while I am driving the car.

She still nurses at night, but even then, I have put some limits on that. A few times, my nipples got so sore that I had to stop her after an hour of nursing. But I still laid there with her and held her while she went to sleep.

And I always offer her milk from the fridge. After 15-20 minutes of nursing, if she still wants milk, then I say "Ok - let's go to the kitchen and get some of Gabby's milk from the fridge."

I think that BF should be a mutually respectful relationship and I see nothing wrong with telling my child no every once in a while. Telling her no doesn't leave her in distress and I always offer other options, which she happily accepts. It doesn't mean that I am not practicing CLW. For the most part, she nurses whenever she wants, sometimes 10-15 times a day.
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:02 PM
 
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I think often people associate asking them to wait with a fit(meaning they aren't ready for those limits), very rarely do my kiddos cry or get upset about waiting, taking turns(when I just can't handle tandeming, like now while pregnant), or just having it during the day. I am not a total stickler on these limits, if Sam(my 4 yr old) wakes up disressed I totally nurse him, but if hewakes up, and is ok, I often remind him he can nurse in the am, or he can have 10 drinks then go back to sleep. I have to put these limits on our nursing relationship because I am not able to be a good mom if I don't. I also don't like feeling violated/resentful(which happens a lot if I am not setting limits)about this relationship that should be loving and nurturing.

Anyway, I do it for mental health reasons, and we all just need support. I am obvioulsy not weaning him, he is 4+ and nurses at least 5 times a day still, at least. I do often resent the feeling that I am not doign it "right". And that setting limits is just as bad as an early, forced weaning. There is no way this is the same thing. I think it is imporant for my kids to know I am a person who has feelings too, it is not ok for them to pinch my breast while we nurse, not at all, that is a limit I have to set. I don't want them to hurt me, they know that, and every single one of my kids have been skin pinchers(just a tiny bit of skin, rolling it in their fingers, they probably would have been twidlers, but I've been tandeming them all. ). Anyway. Limits are ok as long as their needs are being respected too. There is a loving, caring way to do it.

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Old 02-16-2007, 06:01 PM
 
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I agree with the above poster, about supporting nursing moms in their unique situations. I don't think there is one "right" way. CLW is great, but sometimes a nudge from mom makes a healthier relationship.

When my first was born, I was way into LLL and thought if I didn't CLW I would be a bad mom. I got pregnant again when he was 11 months old. I nursed throughout the pregnancy and tandem nursed for over a year. To be honest, I hated it. I wish now I had pushed DS#1 to wean, because I would have enjoyed that year with him so much more, and I'm sure he picked up on my resentment (which probably made him want to nurse all the more!)

During my third pregnancy, DS#2 weaned when my milk dried up. He wasn't interested anymore. (Thank goodness!) I would consider that CLW. Baby #3 was busy playing with big brothers, and we were on the go, so she just forgot to nurse at about 2.5.

I just weaned my little "late in life" baby shortly after her second birthday. We had gotten into some bad habits. When my mind was numb from reading "Spot" or building blocks, I would pull out a boob and watch Oprah. When the kids hit the door needing help with homework or whatever, I would pull out a boob so I could give the older kids my attention. That worked for a while, but DD got so used to it that she became a marathon nurser again, which was driving me nuts. What she really wanted was my attention, not my boob, so I weaned her and started giving her more "big girl" attention. She did protest for a couple of days (well, more like fits on the floor), but she (and I) found out that looking into each others eyes was just as satisfying as her looking into my bra. Another mom could have done it differently without weaning, but this is the choice that worked for me. I didn't have the confidence in my mothering ability to make that choice 14 years ago with DS#1.
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