What ISN"T considered CLW? - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-02-2007, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not trying to dredge up a debate. I just want to make sure I don't post anything inappropriate to this forum.

I can't say I'm absolutely dedicated to the ideal of CLW for myself. I think nursing is a 2-way relationship and weaning should happen gently and be negotiated with respect for the child (after at least 2 years of age). So far, I'm leaving my options open. However, I totally respect the ideal of ds ultimately deciding when he is done, and I hope that is how it works out for us.

I'm now nursing my 3yo in tandem with his little brother, and there is not an end to nursing in sight at the moment, so I would like to find some other mamas to commisserate & celebrate with! I would say most the moms I know who extended bf either weaned during pg (some child-led, others mother-led), or at least night-weaned at some point. So, I feel more like the bf mentor, when I would still like to be a mentee--or at least a peer, as this seems a whole new world

I do put limits on bf with ds1, and I even refuse at times. : I haven't officially night weaned, but dh usually has to go to ds1 at night since usually ds2 is nursing when ds1 wants me. And sometimes, if ds1 is taking a long time to nurse to sleep, I stop nursing and just cuddle with him. I'm confident I'm making the best choices for my family, and I don't care what label anyone wants to put on my nursing choices. But I just want to know if it is taboo here to mention any limits (distraction techniques, using a ten-count to end a session, asking a child to wait until mom is finished with a task, etc.) on a 2+ year old? I would like a nice place to share the experience of nursing a 3+ yo, and maybe help me decide if I will more actively wean at some point, so I'm just trying to clarify the "rules."

Thanks.

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Old 02-03-2007, 01:03 PM
 
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mmmm: I didn't know there were supposed to be rules. I thought the important thing was to follow our mommy instincts and to be sensitive to the needs of our children. If daddy is able to comfort your child in the night then his needs are being met. If three year old asks to nurse and you suggest that he try xyz instead and he runs off happy then his needs are being met. If he falls onto the floor in a hysterical fit and you realize he really needs to nurse and you nurse him then his needs are being met. You are the mama and only you can know what is right in your relationship.
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Old 02-03-2007, 02:48 PM
 
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Okay, all of the below are IMO.....

These are not CLW:
nightweaning
significant limits (ie no nursing away from home)
don't offer/don't refuse
offering significant other milk or sucking

Depending on the age and the individual child, weaning while pregnant may not be CLW.

-Angela
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Old 02-03-2007, 02:57 PM
 
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I think it is individual. For example, I "offered significant other milk and sucking" when my 2 year old got bottle obsessed. For a little while she was having 2 or 3 bottles of milk/day, and that was with me limiting! Little bugger still nursed like crazy tho, she is a true addict.

For that reason, "don't offer don't refuse" is *not* a weaning technique around here. I almost *never* offer, and I often refuse. Still going strong. It boggles my mind that that is something that could actually cause weaning. Not around here! :

For me, I don't think children under 2 can CLW. I think fair enough if mama wants to take an active role in weaning a toddler - but it's not CLW.

I'm nursing my 3.5 year old, and I still don't know if I am committed to CLW. We will have to see how it goes, right now I'm doing CLW more than anything else, so I post here. She nurses a lot still, we are kind of the "last ones standing" in our circle still nursing, I don't really limit unless I don't feel comfortable nursing wherever we're at, or I'm doing something else.

But I can't say I won't actively encourage weaning at some point. It depends. ITA that it's a relationship, and for me it has to be about balancing the wants and needs of both mama and babe.
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Old 02-03-2007, 03:33 PM
 
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For that reason, "don't offer don't refuse" is *not* a weaning technique around here. I almost *never* offer, and I often refuse. Still going strong. It boggles my mind that that is something that could actually cause weaning. Not around here! :

.
this is my situation around here. I am tandeming with a 3 yo and her bro (8 mos). I don't offer and refuse a lot. I night weaned. We don't do it in public., but she hasn't weaned yet. It isn't fully child led, but I feel like it is a different category than bfing beyond infancy. :

We are still going strong. And I use the term CLW to let others know why we haven't weaned. But I know that's not *truly* what I am doing.

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Old 02-03-2007, 07:51 PM
 
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I believe that child-led weaning doesn't have to mean that only the child leads the way, that the mother only follows his lead with no restraints or limits. I think those restraints and limits, including night-weaning and don't offer don't refuse, are based on individual needs and circumstances. If those limits enable the mother to continue nursing her child for as long as he needs, then I find limits far better than fully weaning. Nursing (specifically child-led weaning) is a relationship. Both mother and child are to be respected.

However, at the same time, this forum is the only breastfeeding forum available anywhere online (that I am aware of) where a mother can avoid topics of discussion that have anything to do with any kind of weaning or what others call weaning techniques. To many mothers here, this includes night-weaning. While we are all different and cannot combine our experiences, opinions, and needs to fit into one solid "child-led weaning" mold, mutual respect is expected.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, I consider child-led weaning to be any mama who trusts her child to fully wean when he is ready......and she has every right to say she belongs here as much as any mother who doesn't place limits. I feel sad when a mama comes here in need of support, with the full intention of letting her child wean on his own, and she wonders if she fully belongs here because she placed some kind of limit on her child. To me, that defeats the purpose of having this forum in the first place. If that were the case, I would have had to leave years ago! I would have missed out on some wonderful support and friendship, even from mothers who didn't take the same exact path that I did. And I would have never been part of the movement to have this forum.

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Old 02-03-2007, 08:52 PM
 
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For that reason, "don't offer don't refuse" is *not* a weaning technique around here. I almost *never* offer, and I often refuse. Still going strong. It boggles my mind that that is something that could actually cause weaning. Not around here!

.
This is us.

I'm not sure if I'm comitted to nursing dd till she is 9 if that is what she wants but I am comitted to following her lead as long as possible. I hope she weans before she turns 6 and night weans (or at least cuts way back) soon or I will have to lead her in that direction for my own health and sanity. I still think we fit the definition of clw better than any other and plan to continue to post here.

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Old 02-03-2007, 09:12 PM
 
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this is my situation around here. I am tandeming with a 3 yo and her bro (8 mos). I don't offer and refuse a lot. I night weaned.
Yea...my daughter had a pacifier, I did don't offer (though the only time I ever refused is if I was in the bathroom puking while pg with DS), I night weaned her at 1, I stopped nursing her for almost 4 weeks when I was 7cm dilated and only 32 weeks pregnant, and she continued to nurse past 4 years old, she tandem nursed with DS for 23 months, when he weaned before her, then she kept nursing for another 7 months, she gave up her pacifier on her own 6 months before the last time she nursed...

I definitely think it was self weaning.

On the other hand, I have NEVER refused DS, and I offered a LOT, and I didn't get pregnant while nursing him, no hyperemesis, no pre-term labour to deal with, we didn't night wean him, etc etc etc, and he weaned at 23 months old...I still think autims/sid had a big part in his weaning, and have a hard time considering it selfweaning even though I tried my hardest to keep him nursing.

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Old 02-03-2007, 09:22 PM
 
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At three, I didn't really offer and refused quite a bit. My dd still nursed anywhere from 3 to 12 times a day. Now that she's older and knows when I'm going to say no, she asks at times that work for me, so I pretty much never refuse. I rarely offer. I'm not trying to wean her, it just works. I don't see her weaning anytime soon, despite everyone (including a LLL leader) advising me to wean her because of a rough patch a little over a year ago.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:22 AM
 
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Isn't this kind of the same thing as nursing on demand? I usually don't offer and my 17 month still nurses all the time, still like 5 times at night. It is killing me! I could really use a full nights sleep. I hear what you mamas are saying about don't offer not being a weaning technique.

When I was 6 months pregnant my other daughter pretty much quit nursing on her own at 15 months. I was very sad. I didn't want to force her to continue though. I know CLW rules say children don't wean themselves until after 2, but dd was totally not interested.
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Old 02-04-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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What? There are rules to CLW?

I am nursing my 3 year old and would never think of myself as NOT practicing CLW.

We night weaned when she was 2 1/2. I usually "don't offer/don't refuse". Sometime around 3, I started to be uncomfortable nursing in public so I will ask her to wait to go to the car or go home to nurse.

Having said all of this I still feel like I am following her lead. If she were to balk at any of this I know I would nurse to her needs. But she is quite happy to comply with my needs (no crying when I asked her to wait). There were times, night weaning in particular, when she was not ready to wait (she would cry and tug at me) so we just nursed.

Nursing is a symbiotic relationship. Mother and child are doing it together.

If you are OK with nursing and never setting a limit that is wonderful. But I don't think you should beat yourself up because you night wean or don't offer/don't refuse.

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Old 02-04-2007, 01:43 PM
 
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I believe that child-led weaning doesn't have to mean that only the child leads the way, that the mother only follows his lead with no restraints or limits. I think those restraints and limits, including night-weaning and don't offer don't refuse, are based on individual needs and circumstances. If those limits enable the mother to continue nursing her child for as long as he needs, then I find limits far better than fully weaning. Nursing (specifically child-led weaning) is a relationship. Both mother and child are to be respected.

However, at the same time, this forum is the only breastfeeding forum available anywhere online (that I am aware of) where a mother can avoid topics of discussion that have anything to do with any kind of weaning or what others call weaning techniques. To many mothers here, this includes night-weaning. While we are all different and cannot combine our experiences, opinions, and needs to fit into one solid "child-led weaning" mold, mutual respect is expected.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, I consider child-led weaning to be any mama who trusts her child to fully wean when he is ready......and she has every right to say she belongs here as much as any mother who doesn't place limits. I feel sad when a mama comes here in need of support, with the full intention of letting her child wean on his own, and she wonders if she fully belongs here because she placed some kind of limit on her child. To me, that defeats the purpose of having this forum in the first place. If that were the case, I would have had to leave years ago! I would have missed out on some wonderful support and friendship, even from mothers who didn't take the same exact path that I did. And I would have never been part of the movement to have this forum.

:


Abbie and thismama, I also agree that we learn from our child and our child learns from us. Nursing is a very intimate relationship and a toddler/ child learns the natural ebb and flow of their own nursing relationship. They trust that "as soon as we get home" means that. I believe as long as the child is being listened to and there is a natural trust in the relationship, the child will accept some limits while continuing to nurse. By 2 and especially 3, if the child is nursing, they probably won't let an occassional "no" deter them. They accept "we don't nurse at the grocery store anymore, but I know when we get home we will nurse and cuddle".

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Old 02-04-2007, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks, everyone! I see I'm not alone, which helps a lot! I was around for some initial debates about what CLW consisted of (before this forum was around), and some of the strict definitions of CLW given at the time kind of put me off of the idea.

But, now that ds is 3 with no end in sight, I was feeling I needed a bit more than the "Beyond Infancy" board, as well. I just wanted to make sure I respected the climate of this board, since I know y'all put a lot of effort into getting it.

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Old 02-05-2007, 01:28 AM
 
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I believe that child-led weaning doesn't have to mean that only the child leads the way, that the mother only follows his lead with no restraints or limits. I think those restraints and limits, including night-weaning and don't offer don't refuse, are based on individual needs and circumstances. If those limits enable the mother to continue nursing her child for as long as he needs, then I find limits far better than fully weaning. Nursing (specifically child-led weaning) is a relationship. Both mother and child are to be respected.

However, at the same time, this forum is the only breastfeeding forum available anywhere online (that I am aware of) where a mother can avoid topics of discussion that have anything to do with any kind of weaning or what others call weaning techniques. To many mothers here, this includes night-weaning. While we are all different and cannot combine our experiences, opinions, and needs to fit into one solid "child-led weaning" mold, mutual respect is expected.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, I consider child-led weaning to be any mama who trusts her child to fully wean when he is ready......and she has every right to say she belongs here as much as any mother who doesn't place limits. I feel sad when a mama comes here in need of support, with the full intention of letting her child wean on his own, and she wonders if she fully belongs here because she placed some kind of limit on her child. To me, that defeats the purpose of having this forum in the first place. If that were the case, I would have had to leave years ago! I would have missed out on some wonderful support and friendship, even from mothers who didn't take the same exact path that I did. And I would have never been part of the movement to have this forum.

i'm just wondering where i can get my "I LOVE YOU, MOTHER SUNSHINE!" bumpersticker.
because i love you, mothersunshine.
thank you.
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Old 02-05-2007, 04:44 PM
 
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And you're welcome. That's why I'm still here. (not for the bumper sticker but to give support)
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:22 PM
 
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I'm nursing a 6 year old....and I've done some of the things on the "don't do" list.

nightweaning: So not an option with the first. She nightweaned sometime between 4-5. Still wants to nurse if she has a nightmare.

significant limits (ie no nursing away from home): I will not nurse in public now. Starting when she was three, I said I wouldn't nurse in public if she insisted on putting my shirt over my head so she could get at both of them at once. She decided she'd rather do it her way in private.

don't offer/don't refuse: Can't do it. It makes dd feel rejected.


offering significant other milk or sucking: She's had bottles of expressed milk, then after 13 months cow milk, soy milk and rice milk, starting when I went back to work when she was 3 months old. She still likes to have a bottle while watching tv or zoning next to me. Honestly, I can't stand the bottle, but que sera, sera...yk?

At this point, I want to throw a weaning party for *me*....but I'm hanging in there.
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Old 02-05-2007, 06:49 PM
 
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I believe that child-led weaning doesn't have to mean that only the child leads the way, that the mother only follows his lead with no restraints or limits. I think those restraints and limits, including night-weaning and don't offer don't refuse, are based on individual needs and circumstances. If those limits enable the mother to continue nursing her child for as long as he needs, then I find limits far better than fully weaning. Nursing (specifically child-led weaning) is a relationship. Both mother and child are to be respected.

However, at the same time, this forum is the only breastfeeding forum available anywhere online (that I am aware of) where a mother can avoid topics of discussion that have anything to do with any kind of weaning or what others call weaning techniques. To many mothers here, this includes night-weaning. While we are all different and cannot combine our experiences, opinions, and needs to fit into one solid "child-led weaning" mold, mutual respect is expected.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, I consider child-led weaning to be any mama who trusts her child to fully wean when he is ready......and she has every right to say she belongs here as much as any mother who doesn't place limits. I feel sad when a mama comes here in need of support, with the full intention of letting her child wean on his own, and she wonders if she fully belongs here because she placed some kind of limit on her child. To me, that defeats the purpose of having this forum in the first place. If that were the case, I would have had to leave years ago! I would have missed out on some wonderful support and friendship, even from mothers who didn't take the same exact path that I did. And I would have never been part of the movement to have this forum.

rock on. I LOVE this post!
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Old 02-06-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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i'm just wondering where i can get my "I LOVE YOU, MOTHER SUNSHINE!" bumpersticker.
because i love you, mothersunshine.
thank you.
aileen



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Old 02-07-2007, 11:13 AM
 
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don't offer/don't refuse
offering significant other milk
I think (not) doing these things are actually "weaning-prevention" techniques not child-led weaning. That is to say, they are appropriate up until a certain age (to ensure a child doesn't wean too early)..say age 2/2.5...however after that I do not think it is CLW to either prevent or encourage weaning. I can't imagine witholding "other milk" from a 4-year old so they would nurse more, or continuing to offer breastfeeding to a 5 year old at the same frequently one would do with a 1-year old. I think these things are all "age appropriate" It is certainly important to prevent weaning up until a certain age (2 or so), but I don't feel it is appropriate to try to prevent weaning in a 4 or 5 year old.

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Old 02-07-2007, 01:40 PM
 
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I think (not) doing these things are actually "weaning-prevention" techniques not child-led weaning. That is to say, they are appropriate up until a certain age (to ensure a child doesn't wean too early)..say age 2/2.5...however after that I do not think it is CLW to either prevent or encourage weaning. I can't imagine witholding "other milk" from a 4-year old so they would nurse more, or continuing to offer breastfeeding to a 5 year old at the same frequently one would do with a 1-year old. I think these things are all "age appropriate" It is certainly important to prevent weaning up until a certain age (2 or so), but I don't feel it is appropriate to try to prevent weaning in a 4 or 5 year old.
I agree. I would offer to nurse a baby younger than 2 if I was concerned that they were dropping in frequency but I guess I did "don't offer/don't refuse" with DD#1 from the time she was around 1 and she continued to nurse until I cut her off when she was 4. I did offer to nurse if she hurt herself but I didn't offer to nurse regularly like I would with a young baby. She was still asking and being nursed at least 8-10 during the day and all night. It was certainly not encouraging weaning to not offer.

With DD#2 I probably do offer more. Anything to buy a little more time at the computer. But she definitely asks frequently enough that if I never offered she would still be nursing quite a lot. She is in absolutely no danger of weaning early.
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Old 02-07-2007, 01:42 PM
 
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I have never heard of not offering other milk. I treated other milk like solids offering after nursing up to a certain age, don't remember which age but I am sure it was after age one and closer to two. Once a child can talk and asks for foods then by all means I give them. Nursing is not really about the amount of milk the child recieves from me after age two/three it is more about comfort and emotional needs.
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Old 02-07-2007, 01:56 PM
 
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I think it's very age dependent. Like, not offering other milk would be a CLW strategy with an infant, and maybe with a 1 year old. But IME by age 2 it doesn't compromise nursing at all, and certainly not at age 3 or 4.
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:57 PM
 
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I think (not) doing these things are actually "weaning-prevention" techniques not child-led weaning. That is to say, they are appropriate up until a certain age (to ensure a child doesn't wean too early)..say age 2/2.5...however after that I do not think it is CLW to either prevent or encourage weaning. I can't imagine witholding "other milk" from a 4-year old so they would nurse more, or continuing to offer breastfeeding to a 5 year old at the same frequently one would do with a 1-year old. I think these things are all "age appropriate" It is certainly important to prevent weaning up until a certain age (2 or so), but I don't feel it is appropriate to try to prevent weaning in a 4 or 5 year old.
Great point. These things sound like things someone with a baby or young toddler would be concerned with, not mamas of 3, 4 and 5 year-olds. 4 year-olds don't wean because they get some milk on their cereal in the morning, kwim?
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:00 PM
 
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I think it's very age dependent. Like, not offering other milk would be a CLW strategy with an infant, and maybe with a 1 year old. But IME by age 2 it doesn't compromise nursing at all, and certainly not at age 3 or 4.
Yeah this has been my experience too. There's nothing magical about milk per se, as opposed to any other nutritious solids for an older toddler/preschooler. If you really want to ensure your child never weans, don't offer solid food at all. But of course that's child abuse (please no posts about 14 month olds not eating/needing solids yet... I'm talking about children of a natural weaning age here!) so that's out.

Just wanted to add, I don't think children NEED milk at all, but if your family eats dairy most children do too. Also, it's an easy source of calcium and for those with children who turn up their noses at kale and seaweed and sardine bones, you're kind of hard-pressed to find calcium rich natural foods without doing some sort of dairy or dairy alternative.
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:06 PM
 
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For me, I don't think children under 2 can CLW. I think fair enough if mama wants to take an active role in weaning a toddler - but it's not CLW.
It has happened to me 3 times. Ds1 17 months, dd1 and ds2 between 20-22 months Mylee is still nursing of course.

I would offer. I would rock them bare chested. THEY WOULD NOT NURSE. Angelo would straight out say, "No....no nee nee. No wanna."

I know it doesn't matter what others say about your parenting, but I KNOW there is nothing more I could have done to get them to nurse. THey were done! And they decided that on there own. That to me makes it child led weaning.

It kills me that we don't make it longer My mother nursed myself and my siblings til we were almost 3.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 02-07-2007, 03:37 PM
 
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Great point. These things sound like things someone with a baby or young toddler would be concerned with, not mamas of 3, 4 and 5 year-olds. 4 year-olds don't wean because they get some milk on their cereal in the morning, kwim?
:

I would agree.

-Angela
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Old 02-07-2007, 04:22 PM
 
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Oops, sorry AngelBee. That'll learn me - make a judgmental generalization, and someone will a) have an opposite experience, and b) be hurt by said generalization.

I tend to base my generalizations on my own experience, which is limited as I have only one child, and a boobie addict at that.

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Old 02-07-2007, 05:38 PM
 
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It has happened to me 3 times. Ds1 17 months, dd1 and ds2 between 20-22 months Mylee is still nursing of course.

I would offer. I would rock them bare chested. THEY WOULD NOT NURSE. Angelo would straight out say, "No....no nee nee. No wanna."

I know it doesn't matter what others say about your parenting, but I KNOW there is nothing more I could have done to get them to nurse. THey were done! And they decided that on there own. That to me makes it child led weaning.

It kills me that we don't make it longer My mother nursed myself and my siblings til we were almost 3.
You know, the fact that they ALL did this means it wasn't a fluke, just how they're designed! You did great.

The one thing I hate on this board is seeing mamas use sad/upset/crying smilies when talking about babies nursing til 22 months! You rock mama .... give yourself a pat on the back not a guilt trip!
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Old 02-08-2007, 04:51 PM
 
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just wanted to add, in response to the OP's questions about what is acceptable to post here (vs. bf'ing beyond infancy) - to me, it has to do with what you're asking about. If you're committed to CLW (in the form you feel is right for your family) but are seeking advice about setting limits or night-weaning or something of that nature, then those questions belong in the BF'ing Beyond Infancy forum. If you are seeking support for continuing to nurse, tandem nursing (with the older nursling is an older toddler or pre-schooler, especially), or maybe just have questions for others who are CLW'ing, then I think those would be better directed in the CLW forum.

but that's also why there are moderators - if you put it in the "wrong" forum, they'll move it for you. though you might get a few snarky responses before they do :
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Old 02-08-2007, 05:06 PM
 
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THat is the part that is kind of sad. I think it is important for other clw mamas to know that it is ok to set limits(including nuightweaning), if that is what they need. If it is only allowed on the other forum, they might not see that it's ok, that their child will be ok(done in a loving, respectful manner, of course), and that it is very important to find a way to keep clw working for their family, whether it fits under the strigent "rules" of some clw...and unfortunately for some of us that does mean setting limits and nightweaning.

I also wonder why someone should expect snarky comments. What purpose does that serve? If someone is coming here looking for support with limits so they can continue to clw shouldn't they be met with compassion and understanding, and gently directed to the appropriate forum(if that is the case)? Do we want people to be afraid to post? CLW does indeed have a spectrum, depending on the child, his/her age, family dynamics/needs. It seems out of place on a board lik mdc to have this set of rules, and only if you are under those rules are you clw. It just doesn't seem right to me(and not just because I do place limits). Just like anything in life it can't really be black and wwhite, there is always that gray area, there is always the exception...
I just don't want mamas to be scared off, and I need a place to come for support too...I will be nursing three come this August, just when I thought I had doen it all.

Single mama to Alex(13), Maddy(12), Sam(8), Violet(6), and Ruby(3). fly-by-nursing1.gif
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