My Son's Peds DR Scared Me! - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 50 Old 01-30-2009, 10:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BabyMae09 View Post
Here's my bottom line... I feel like everything is going to be just fine... I'm eating pretty good, swimming, and generally taking care of myself, and I get nothing but good vibes when I think about having a UC. When I think about having my baby girl in the hospital, however... I get all stressed out. But what if I'm wrong, and something does happen? How would I ever forgive myself?

But then I think... so much can go wrong because of the environment at the hospital as well...
I am a former NICU Respiratory Therapist and now a senior midwife student. The ductos arterious actually takes about 24 hours to close. If it remains open it will not kill your baby in five minutes. And there are signs before it becomes a problem and you would have time to get it treated. I don't know what your doctor friend was talking about. If he did see a baby die quickly in the ER then I am positive there was more to the story that he either does not remember or is not telling you. And if your baby is born with a heart defect many times it is not caught until days later and if you had a hospital birth by then you are home anyway. I have attended lots of births in and out of the hospital. The only time I have seen a baby die and a mother die was in the hospital and they both died due to hospital neglect. If they had been at home there is a very high chance they would be alive today. I worked for several years in the NICU and high risk labor and delivery. I have seen the worst cases. I have seen horrible birth defects. I have seen bad things happen in childbirth. And I chose to give birth at home. I knew I was safest at home, and you will be too.

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#32 of 50 Old 01-30-2009, 11:22 PM
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Not a UC mama, but a wannabe one! I just wanted to say that you can do it! Trust your baby and your body!

Also, it sounds like you have a positive relationship with your ped, and that you value his input. While it sounds to me like he did not do a very good job of explaining his concerns, I think it was brave of you to confide in him at all, and respectful of him to keep the conversation polite, even if you are doing something that goes against what he has been trained to believe in. I think it was unfair of him to use scare tactics, but from the way you described him, it sounds like his heart, unlike his facts, were in the right place!
Imagine being on the other side; for example say you were a passionate BF person conversing with someone who says they will not BF and that is it. You would probably try to convince them that BFing was awesome and you might find that your passion leads you to sound pompous or you might unwittingly exaggerate certain aspects.

You opened the door to discussion and he was honest about his understanding of it. I think it might help if you did go back to him and share how the conversation affected you, asked for clarification and solid evidence, as opposed to subjective interpretation of events. Go armed with all the great information that is out there and tell him why you are sharing the info. That you trust and value your relationship and wanted the opportunity to discuss it further with mutual respect from both perspectives.

In openly listening to his views you invite the same open response from him. You might not get it, but he sounds like it might!

wbg...constantly amazed by Z , cherishing I , inspired by P , adoring K and still getting butterflies when I wake up with B !
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#33 of 50 Old 01-30-2009, 11:34 PM
 
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why would an otherwise great DR say such things to me? I really don't think he's lying... why would he say that he saw a baby die from something if he hadn't?
sometimes the md's we think are so cool (our younger age group, *seems* kinda crunchy) are the most biased and alarmist docs of all, ime.

i just dealt with this type of nonsense from a "great", "progressive" md. he kept recounting things he saw or heard about, using scare tactics. his throwing around of lies and assumptions and prejudice was so insulting and unprofessional, that i went to the board of the hospital and talked to the director. she couldn't believe some of the things he said to me. she was *not* happy about his behavior/accusations, but not surprised he was on his high horse about it all. he has the accolades........

as many pp said, keep your uc plans on the down low when talking to ANY hcp. and georgetownhbmom had very sage advice!

you can do this mama!
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#34 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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G-Town HB Mom - Thanks so much for your post; I really appreciate your thoughts

WBG - Thanks for your opinion. You are right, and I likely will share more with my son's DR - after my daughter is born UC and doing just great

Me,yummy.gif   DS, Peace.gif and DDdust.gif Grateful to the baby I lost for sticking around long enough to teach me what I needed to know so badly  candle.gif  We  love our forest valley home, our goats and chickenschicken3.gif, and wild harvested food-medicine coolshine.gif

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#35 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 10:41 AM
 
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why would an otherwise great DR say such things to me? I really don't think he's lying... why would he say that he saw a baby die from something if he hadn't? I'm not his patient, so he has no liability to me, you know?
I think that most non-OBs don't actually lie about birthing issues, I think they are just totally misinformed by the medical profession that they know.

There are so many "rumors" that travel around in the medical field that they just pick up what they hear and think it is fact rather than investigate it themselves (they have no reason to research it, it is not their field).

Perhaps this is the perfect time to educate him.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
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#36 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 01:09 PM
 
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The placenta does not steal blood from the baby. It doesn't do it inutero why would it do it after it was out?
Because in utero, it's intact, and the blood volume is constant, circulating between baby and placenta. After it detaches, it leaks blood from ruptured blood vessels, and if the cord detaches from the placenta, it can leak a LOT of blood in a very short time.

BTW, my emergency care manual's childbirth chapter says it's OK to leave the cord unclamped up to 20 minutes if other things are going on, the cord is not wrapped around the neck (that's a "clamp immediately" one) and the baby is OK. Otherwise, it's clamped and cut after baby is out, suctioned, and breathing well ... we concentrate a lot of making sure people are breathing.
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#37 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 01:16 PM
 
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Did you know most young doctors never see an unmedicated birth during their training years.

Keep that in mind next time you have a conversation with a young doctor.
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#38 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 02:15 PM
 
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Because in utero, it's intact, and the blood volume is constant, circulating between baby and placenta. After it detaches, it leaks blood from ruptured blood vessels, and if the cord detaches from the placenta, it can leak a LOT of blood in a very short time.
If the cord detaches from the placenta, that is totally different than a "normal" birth, and the cord can just be clamped, if not, then it could lead to an emergency. But that is not what this doctor was saying.

And to say that a placenta will leak blood once it detaches is incorrect. That is why a baby CAN keep the cord intact after a birth even after the placenta has been delivered.

We do not clamp our cords until the placenta has been delivered, and it does not leak blood out.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
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#39 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 03:15 PM
 
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BTW, my emergency care manual's childbirth chapter says it's OK to leave the cord unclamped up to 20 minutes if other things are going on, the cord is not wrapped around the neck (that's a "clamp immediately" one) and the baby is OK. Otherwise, it's clamped and cut after baby is out, suctioned, and breathing well ... we concentrate a lot of making sure people are breathing.
Up to 20 minutes? Who came up with that arbitrary number? There's no way I'd cut the cord before the placenta is out, barring an emergency. Cord around the neck is not necessarily an emergency. It is much preferable to try and loop it off over the head. The attached placenta is still providing oxygen to the baby, and even if you think baby is breathing well, that oxygen and the small amount of blood being transferred is important to the baby's wellbeing.

With my first birth, the midwife cut dd's cord within a minute or so. The placenta was not out. Then they said dd was not breathing as well as they'd like- a little snuffly. I believe it's because she was no longer getting oxygen from her placenta. They stuck a tiny tube down her nose. It made her bleed. The tissue swelled. She refused to nurse because she couldn't breathe (our breastfeeding issues didn't resolve for a week, thanks to that awful beginning!)

Then I was bleeding too much; placenta was still inside. I was shot up with pitocin twice. It's my understanding from researching after the fact that early cord clamping can contribute to this. The blood volume that should have gone to the baby is still in the placenta. So it's full and big and the uterus may have trouble clamping down properly to expel it and stop bleeding. I think there was cord traction applied, and it finally came out, and the midwife gave me an excruciatingly painful uterine 'massage'.

Contrast that to my UC birth, where we left the cord unclamped, placenta was born a few minutes later, and I had no hemorrhage. Ds had no breathing issues and nursed within minutes. We left the placenta attached for about 45minutes, IIRC The only reason we cut the cord at that point was that it was kind of awkward to tandem nurse in bed with the placenta lying there in a bowl too.

IMO, leaving the cord attached until after the placenta has been born is very beneficial.

~*Kristi*~
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#40 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 05:20 PM
 
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If all circumstances with the cord uncut resulted in the placenta *stealing* blood from the baby and killing it, well... wouldn't ALL lotus birth babies be dead?
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#41 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 05:35 PM
 
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Sorry for sounding suspicious, but why would a ped be attending a birth, anyway?
I had a vaginal birth with epidural in a hospital and I had a ped at my birth. I dont know how common it is...but it happens...

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#42 of 50 Old 01-31-2009, 05:40 PM
 
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Doesn't Wharton's Jelly keep the seal off the umbilical cord after it stops pulsing anyway?

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#43 of 50 Old 02-01-2009, 08:21 AM
 
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As everyone else has pointed out, the cord thing is utter BS.
It sounds like the heart thing might not hold water either. Plus the fact that your doctor lied to you about the cord (knowingly or unknowingly) would make me more skeptical of anything else he had to say after that.
I think this thread is very related to the responsibility thread also going on right now. In the very very rare chance something might happen, are you ready to take that responsibility? Because it's impossible to prevent the unknown from happening. Even in hospitals babies can die due to unforeseen or rare complications (I'm not including the deaths from unnecessary interventions here...). Nobody's getting out of here alive. Death is very much a part of life, and often comes at the moment it is least expected.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding morbid here but I think this is THE issue with UC that people have to come to terms with, and also the main issue for the people who try to control birth/death in hospitals. Death makes people sad, so they try to prevent it at all costs. It's unpredictable, and this makes people nervous, so various ways of trying to control it have evolved. Obviously there are certain things you can do to reduce risk of death, but at what point is the attempt to prevent death going overboard? People birth in hospitals with tons of interventions because they are scared and they think the interventions will help. We know that they don't usually help and often just make things worse. I guess what I'm trying to say is something like what Jeannine Parvati Baker said in Prenatal Yoga and Natural Birth: "ecstasy is indeed worth mortality". If you are feeling good about your UC, as you said earlier, and you're healthy, and your pregnancy has been uncomplicated, then you're probably fine. The unexpected could happen. But is this a reason to decide to give birth in the hospital, where the unexpected could also happen? That's each mother's choice and no-one else's, and in my opinion has much less to do with the actual risk of UC (since the risk is very small if you are educated about birth and healthy, not to mention living 5 minutes from a hospital as you do) than with one's attitude towards death and the unknown (does one believe it is possible to control death with technology?).
Anyway, I hope this didn't sound preachy in any way, because it certainly wasn't meant to. This is just something I think about a LOT. And I think is something people who have UCs must think about. Birth brings one into intimate contact with the blood and guts essence of our incredible life cycle, which includes death.

ETA: So basically it's not that birth in the hospital is so much safer and therefore hospital-birthers don't have to consider the link between birth and death. It's more that going to the hospital allows people to believe that death is impossible if the right technology is applied. Why else do OBs get sued when a baby dies? The fact that the mainstream public does not want to admit to itself is that birth in any environment, no matter how technologically controlled, does include the risk of death. As does walking out the door in the morning. But do we don a reflective jumpsuit, recruit an attendant, strap rear-view mirrors to our heads, wear radars to detect approaching objects, or put in a heparin lock every time we step outside? No. Not only would those probably be mostly ineffective at preventing getting run over by a car or getting mugged, they would severely hinder the enjoyment of being outside, to the point that we might just think, why bother to go outside? Instead, we look before we cross the street, don't go down dark alleyways alone, and call help if there's an emergency.

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#44 of 50 Old 02-01-2009, 12:57 PM
 
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i agree with all the PPs, he's very mis-informed.

and i wanted to comment on the "the baby could die in 5 minutes" thing.
if that were the case, even if you were in teh hospital, they CANNOT prep a c-section in 5 minutes. not even 10, no matter how huge of an emergency is. i get so irritated that dr's tell people, "we can have the baby out in a minute with a c-section" yes, but thats after, all the people are in the room, paged from all areas of the hospital, and possibly from home, anesthesia has been administered, the OR has been prepped, and a whole lot of other things have taken place. there is no such thing as an instant c-section.

i've known dozens of people with a PDA, they are fine. and if you leave the placenta alone, and the cord, you are less likely to have the PDA problem. its rare in full term infants anyone, more likely with preemies.

wife to my awesome DH, homeschooling, unassisted birthing, food growing, life loving mama to 5 crazy monkeys. :
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#45 of 50 Old 02-01-2009, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ursus - I know you're right. That's kind of the conclusion that my fiance and I finally come to a couple days ago You don't sound preachy, just passionate!

Me,yummy.gif   DS, Peace.gif and DDdust.gif Grateful to the baby I lost for sticking around long enough to teach me what I needed to know so badly  candle.gif  We  love our forest valley home, our goats and chickenschicken3.gif, and wild harvested food-medicine coolshine.gif

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#46 of 50 Old 02-02-2009, 02:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amydidit View Post
If all circumstances with the cord uncut resulted in the placenta *stealing* blood from the baby and killing it, well... wouldn't ALL lotus birth babies be dead?
Yeah. That.

Austin June 2006; Xander March 2008; Shay Nov 2009; 5 babies gone to heaven.
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#47 of 50 Old 02-02-2009, 02:35 PM
 
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As everyone else has pointed out, the cord thing is utter BS.
It sounds like the heart thing might not hold water either. Plus the fact that your doctor lied to you about the cord (knowingly or unknowingly) would make me more skeptical of anything else he had to say after that.
I think this thread is very related to the responsibility thread also going on right now. In the very very rare chance something might happen, are you ready to take that responsibility? Because it's impossible to prevent the unknown from happening. Even in hospitals babies can die due to unforeseen or rare complications (I'm not including the deaths from unnecessary interventions here...). Nobody's getting out of here alive. Death is very much a part of life, and often comes at the moment it is least expected.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding morbid here but I think this is THE issue with UC that people have to come to terms with, and also the main issue for the people who try to control birth/death in hospitals. Death makes people sad, so they try to prevent it at all costs. It's unpredictable, and this makes people nervous, so various ways of trying to control it have evolved. Obviously there are certain things you can do to reduce risk of death, but at what point is the attempt to prevent death going overboard? People birth in hospitals with tons of interventions because they are scared and they think the interventions will help. We know that they don't usually help and often just make things worse. I guess what I'm trying to say is something like what Jeannine Parvati Baker said in Prenatal Yoga and Natural Birth: "ecstasy is indeed worth mortality". If you are feeling good about your UC, as you said earlier, and you're healthy, and your pregnancy has been uncomplicated, then you're probably fine. The unexpected could happen. But is this a reason to decide to give birth in the hospital, where the unexpected could also happen? That's each mother's choice and no-one else's, and in my opinion has much less to do with the actual risk of UC (since the risk is very small if you are educated about birth and healthy, not to mention living 5 minutes from a hospital as you do) than with one's attitude towards death and the unknown (does one believe it is possible to control death with technology?).
Anyway, I hope this didn't sound preachy in any way, because it certainly wasn't meant to. This is just something I think about a LOT. And I think is something people who have UCs must think about. Birth brings one into intimate contact with the blood and guts essence of our incredible life cycle, which includes death.

ETA: So basically it's not that birth in the hospital is so much safer and therefore hospital-birthers don't have to consider the link between birth and death. It's more that going to the hospital allows people to believe that death is impossible if the right technology is applied. Why else do OBs get sued when a baby dies? The fact that the mainstream public does not want to admit to itself is that birth in any environment, no matter how technologically controlled, does include the risk of death. As does walking out the door in the morning. But do we don a reflective jumpsuit, recruit an attendant, strap rear-view mirrors to our heads, wear radars to detect approaching objects, or put in a heparin lock every time we step outside? No. Not only would those probably be mostly ineffective at preventing getting run over by a car or getting mugged, they would severely hinder the enjoyment of being outside, to the point that we might just think, why bother to go outside? Instead, we look before we cross the street, don't go down dark alleyways alone, and call help if there's an emergency.
Well said. This attitude is exactly why when I say I will UC and accept what comes good or bad, everyone says "what if the baby dies; can you really accept that?" As a person who has 5 miscarriages under my belt I say "yes, if there is nothing to be done, I'd rather my child pass away in my arms than in a isolette; I can and will take complete responsibility for that outcome."
Death is inherent in life and we do all kinds of risk-benefit analyses whenever we do ANYTHING! And there are a hundred things in everyday that contain more risk of death than childbirth and most are things we never think twice about attempting.

Austin June 2006; Xander March 2008; Shay Nov 2009; 5 babies gone to heaven.
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#48 of 50 Old 02-10-2009, 09:47 PM
 
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BTW, my emergency care manual's childbirth chapter says it's OK to leave the cord unclamped up to 20 minutes if other things are going on, the cord is not wrapped around the neck (that's a "clamp immediately" one) and the baby is OK. Otherwise, it's clamped and cut after baby is out, suctioned, and breathing well ... we concentrate a lot of making sure people are breathing.
Cord wrapped around the neck is absolutely NOT a "clamp immediately one". That's the worst thing that can be done, because if there's a delay in the body being born and in breathing, you've just cut off its only source of oxygen. Very dangerous. It's best to simply leave the cord alone. In fact, it doesn't even need to be cut, ever. Nor should the baby be suctioned unless there are breathing issues going on, and if that were the case I'd personally not bother with a bulb syringe, I'd use a finger to clear the mouth and suck with my own mouth over the baby's. For a baby that had just emerged I'd hold it face downward to facilitate draining, and if color and tone were good, simply talk softly to the baby and rub the back lightly. Some babies transition slowly which is why you want to keep that cord attached and not messed with, so the transition can be gentle and remain normal.
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#49 of 50 Old 02-11-2009, 12:37 PM
 
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I too would be careful who you discuss your UC plans with. Just b/c he's a cool guy and good dr. for your son doesn't mean he's going to agree with something so against the norm in our culture. It scares him, so anything he says whether he means to or not will be to scare/not support you! Hugs mama!
yep that whole mandated reporter thing and all! a lot of people feel thats endangering the child, and would warrant reporting.

s: good luck with your uc!
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#50 of 50 Old 02-11-2009, 04:55 PM
 
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Let me just say that my son's DR is really cool... he's about our (me and my fiance's) age and really down to earth about the state of the health care industry today - he knows the flaws and so forth. So I called him to chat with him about our plans to UC. He was very polite, but also very 'concerned' about our plans. He told me about this thing that can happen where the baby's heart doesn't 'sort' blood correctly or something, and the baby can die within minutes -we're 5 minutes from the hospital, but DR said that's 'not close enough' and in that situation we would need access to 'neo-natal' resuscitation equipment other than oxygen and CPR. He ALSO told me that leaving the cord attached for too long can actually kill the baby, because the placenta 'steals' blood from the infant. I was planning to leave the cord on until it stopped pulsing!

Has anyone heard about these two situations, and if so, how do I avoid/prevent them?
It sounds like he's just using scare tactics to keep you from UCing. He can be really cool and all that and still be brainwashed into believing that women/babies die without medical expertise - that just by being alone you are 100% at risk.

As far as the cord blood, I have read a lot about lotus births and I have not read of a single infant death from one. That is just insane!! I mean, if a baby can wear the cord and placenta for several days or a week or more, being attached for a few hours won't hurt it. I would listen to my soul and my research instead of to him.

Well, now on to see what the others' say. They probably have much better advice to give - or at least worded better.
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