Can we talk about taking responsibility? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, I'm not really sure about how to state this. There is lots and lots of talk about how unsafe it is to UC because if something happens, the baby could die. How much safer it is to have an attendant there or to have baby at the hospital so that you can assure a better outcome.

When I dreamed one night of my UC, and that is how I made the decision, I saw who was at my birth, and I saw everything turn out well. But in my planning I also came to terms with the fact that it is possible that my baby could, well...die, as a result of what I was planning. I know it happens, heck, it happens in hospitals and attended homebirths too. In my processing, I realized that to be comfortable with my choice to birth without professional assistance, I needed to take responsibility that it was a possible outcome, however unwanted or unlikely.

Of course all this is in theory, and I have never had a loss to actually deal with. In my processing, I just trusted that what would happen is what would need to happen. I had faith(not in anything particular, but overall) that it would be what it needed to be, and that would be okay. That if my child did not survive, that there was a reason for that, too. Not to mention that if my child were not going to survive, I wouldn't want them to spend whatever time I did get with them in the hospital.

Am I alone here?

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#2 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 02:46 PM
 
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But things could happen in the hospital, with a midwife, etc, too. It's not just that things happen with UC births. It's just that when we birth our own, we can't blame the doctor, nurse, midwife, etc for what went wrong.

I see it as taking full responsibility and full power of the birthing.

I agree that if something did happen, I would want to be there holding my baby and not have to watch the doctor take my baby into another room in a machine to die alone or with strangers.

I ultimately trust...and I believe that everything that happens, like you said, happens for a reason / was meant to be.


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#3 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 02:57 PM
 
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I saw that article on aol news yesterday...about the widowed dad who blogs. One of the photos was right after the c-sec. The mom was lying there, looking at her daughter for the first time. The caption said that was the one and only time the mom got to see her daughter. After that, they took the babe to the NICU and then the mom died. She didn't even get to touch her baby.

I would do an U/C over that any day.

It's like people think a doctor or a hospital will stop death.


And, personally, the idea of having no one else to blame if my baby dies is much more comforting than having to think another person was responsible for my babe's death.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#4 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 02:58 PM
 
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No, you are not alone! I don't think anyone here will disagree!

Personally, I think that UC is in fact a more responsible choice - strictly in the sense that you are not handing over responsibility for your life and your baby's to someone else, to a dr, whom you might never have met before. In my case, I had a very strong feeling that the hospital would not only not be safer, but in fact giving birth in a hospital might very well be dangerous. (Where I live, in Serbia, L&D hospitals have practices that were normal in the US around the '50s!) I don't have the same feelings about a mw attended homebirth being dangerous - my first was with a mw, but I also don't feel her presence was needed, and wanted.

I also recognize your comments about something going wrong, and thought that everything would turn out the way "it meant to". Sometimes people do die in childbirth no matter where that happens. I hate to think that anyone who suffers a loss in UC would be blamed for that, simply because there was no doctor involved. I know of several deaths that were caused by medical interventions that took place in hospitals here last year, and yet people are convinced the hospital is safer. It makes me sad to think those deaths are described as "tragedies"...

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#5 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, whew! I was fearing that I would get superflamed for this one. I had a talk about this with the only UCer I know IRL, but mostly it is not okay to say that I'm willing to "let" my child die or whatever they argue is wrong with UC.

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#6 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 03:53 PM
 
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You're not alone at all!

No one else will ever be able to care more about the birth of my baby than me so it only makes sense that I be the one in complete control of the birth. I've taken complete responsibility since TTC so it makes no sense at all to me to just hand that responsibility over at the very end.
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#7 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 04:06 PM
 
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This is an interesting topic, and an important one! It is also difficult to discuss, especially for those of us who have never suffered a loss, because it is so emotionally charged for those who have.

I agree with you. I feel that it is important for the rational part of our brains to "remember" the inherent risk involved in birth for the motherbaby that generations of women understood before the current technocracy emerged. There is a point at which too much technology produces its own problems, and we have reached and surpassed that point in obstetrics in the US, IMHO. We will never defeat death, never. It is there waiting for us all.

I choose to embrace the unlikely possibility of death as part of the birth process, for both myself and my child. My personal beliefs allow me to accept that the spirit continues, even while those still living mourn. I do not feel that this is irresponsible or unfair or criminal. Birth sometimes includes death. Ultimately no one can foretell how a birth will play out. Insistence that all births are safer in the presence of technology is both incorrect an dishonoring of the spiritual knowledge women hold of their bodies, their babies, and their births.
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#8 of 51 Old 01-30-2009, 05:10 PM
 
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No way, you aren't going to get flamed! I feel the same way. That is why most people probably wouldn't UC in our fear based society...they would have to take responsibility!!!!!

I was just thinking this morning what I would do if I lost my baby (pre term) and I can't imagine having my baby like that in a hospital. That would be horrible. It would already be bad enough, but like a pp poster said for a dr. to want to take your baby away or to leave it to die alone. No thanks.

I too have found faith in my body and birth. My husband has complete faith and absolutely no worries. We agree with the pp poster that said hospital births are MORE dangerous. Then they say, 'oh thank goodness you were in a hospital b/c of a, b or c'. Ya, but a, b and c were cause BECAUSE of being in the hospital! For example, I tore really bad. Um, due to the CNM pulling my dd's head out (witch) and then I started hemmeroaging (crap, I can never spell that). Why? Because when I was wrapped up in my VBAC success and holding my sweet baby, she pulled out my freakin' placenta and a piece had broken off inside unbeknown to anyone until I started bleeding everywhere. If I had been left unhindered at home those 2 things would have never happened!
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#9 of 51 Old 01-31-2009, 10:49 AM
 
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Totally not alone.

I have taken responsibility for all my children's births, and don't plan on giving that up. Someone has to take the responsibility, and it is my child, so it is my responsibility to take.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#10 of 51 Old 01-31-2009, 03:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
I saw that article on aol news yesterday...about the widowed dad who blogs. One of the photos was right after the c-sec. The mom was lying there, looking at her daughter for the first time. The caption said that was the one and only time the mom got to see her daughter. After that, they took the babe to the NICU and then the mom died. She didn't even get to touch her baby.

I would do an U/C over that any day.

It's like people think a doctor or a hospital will stop death.


And, personally, the idea of having no one else to blame if my baby dies is much more comforting than having to think another person was responsible for my babe's death.
i think it is important to be at peace with the inherent risks of childbirth. babies and mothers can and do die sometimes.

but, many deaths can be stopped by hospitals and doctors. one of my closest friends died during childbirth. the baby would have died too if she had not been in the hospital when she crashed. she was planning a homebirth.

i had both my kids at home, the second unassisted (but attended). just please don't write off death as something that "just happens". it is extremely rare for a mother or baby to die in childbirth in a developed nation. this is due largely, but not completely, to adequate nutrition, hygiene etc.

even though our obstetric system is mysogynist, sexist and causes a ton a iatrogenic problems, doctors and hospitals really can and do prevent death.

this is not to be construed as criticism, as i know this forum is "support only."

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#11 of 51 Old 01-31-2009, 05:25 PM
 
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I don't think it's criticism; I think it's important to take an honest look at the risks and benefits of our choices. There will be some cases where a baby will not make it in a UC where it might have with an attendant. That's not to say that there aren't other circumstances that might be the inverse as well or to negate the benefits of a UC. But there are certain sets of risks that come with a UC; most of the cases I've seen involved babies not making it due to shoulder dystocia or undetected cord compression/oxygen deprivation late in labor. Whether or not a woman is willing to embrace those risks (along with the benefits, in comparison with the risks and benefits of other birth choices) is a really complex issue. I think it's important not to brush off the possible risks and say "well death happens and babies die in hospitals too." That's kind of a cop-out answer. Rather, we need to keep our eyes open, do our research and preparation, and seek spiritual/intuitive guidance for whether or not a UC is appropriate in our case.

It's true that home birth and UC in particular takes the brunt of blame and guilt if something "goes wrong." I wish that weren't the case--any mom mourning a bad outcome doesn't need that extra burden--but it's true.

Hard stuff to think about...but think about it we must.
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#12 of 51 Old 01-31-2009, 06:00 PM
 
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I was just talking about this with dh last night - he feels safer if something were to happen with us being in a hospital because they know how to handle it...you know, the usual stuff.

I am not in any way in my thought process trying to belittle or take away the grief any bereaved parent feels - I have never experienced it but don't think there is anything that hurts and wounds the spirit that much.

But death, is a part of life - not just birth. I too believe that the spirit continues on, and I believe (I chose not to use the word faith because most make the assumption of some sort of religious belief, I am not a religious person - and I dont like when people assume Im making decisions based on that - I have nothing against religious people...at all..its just not my thing) anyways...I believe that if the physical body of my baby dies, then I want to have done what was right by that child. As much as I will be crushed, and will mourn forever - I hope deep down I know not that it was fate, but that this is the way things were meant to turn out, and eventually come to peace with that.

The only thing that tests my beliefs is that if I truly believe that things happen as they are meant to, then if I go into preterm labour...would I go to the hospital? Or would I let things happen as my body sees fit - as this is something that is controlled by the body (barring any outside interference - for example preterm labour caused by car accident etc...) If my body decides to go into labour early, is it not hypocritical of me to not let that happen as it may....*thoughts *thoughts *thoughts...

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#13 of 51 Old 02-01-2009, 03:29 AM
 
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I could be wrong, but I would think that if something was wrong with the baby that it would die before it could be rushed to the hospital, then I don't see the outcome at a hospital being much different. Most hospitals don't have all of the high tech stuff right there, so it could take a while before they got the equipment there. If a specialist is needed, they might not be there, especially if it's a middle of the night birth or at a smaller hospital.

For me, it just seems like less of a risk to UC than to go to the hospital where it would be nearly impossible to avoid interventions that are proven to injure and distress babies.

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#14 of 51 Old 02-01-2009, 02:39 PM
 
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I could be wrong, but I would think that if something was wrong with the baby that it would die before it could be rushed to the hospital, then I don't see the outcome at a hospital being much different. Most hospitals don't have all of the high tech stuff right there, so it could take a while before they got the equipment there. If a specialist is needed, they might not be there, especially if it's a middle of the night birth or at a smaller hospital.

For me, it just seems like less of a risk to UC than to go to the hospital where it would be nearly impossible to avoid interventions that are proven to injure and distress babies.
Exactly. It seems to me that some things are preventable with education, preparation and calm action if the issue comes up. The other things, well, who is to say whether a hospital/doctor could really save a life?

On another thread, an OP mentioned her doctor saying the baby would die in under five minutes. Yet would live by being born in the hospital? Sometimes you spend five minutes just riding on the elevators in a hospital! It takes more than five minutes to scrub for surgery.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#15 of 51 Old 02-01-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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The only thing that tests my beliefs is that if I truly believe that things happen as they are meant to, then if I go into preterm labour...would I go to the hospital? Or would I let things happen as my body sees fit - as this is something that is controlled by the body (barring any outside interference - for example preterm labour caused by car accident etc...) If my body decides to go into labour early, is it not hypocritical of me to not let that happen as it may....*thoughts *thoughts *thoughts...
I'm not a UC'er (I always have to give that disclaimer) but I am the mom of two preemies. My thoughts on it are this. Most of the time, people don't know why they go into PTL. It is, IMO, an emergency, one of those situations for which hospitals exist. If my body decided to get appendicitis, a dental abscess, a lump in my breast, lupus, etc., I would seek the care of doctor to handle a situation that was out of my control (however natural it might be).

Preterm labor would be the same thing for me. I don't consider it a variation of normal (like a breech baby or a baby weighing 9.5 pounds). If I were a person that UC'ed, I'd place these type of events (complete placenta previa, prolapsed cord, preterm labor) in a separate category of true emergencies for which I'd get outside help. Maybe especially preterm labor because of the possibility that it could be stopped or delayed, resulting in an otherwise normal healthy birth
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#16 of 51 Old 02-01-2009, 05:50 PM
 
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I'm not a UC'er (I always have to give that disclaimer) but I am the mom of two preemies. My thoughts on it are this. Most of the time, people don't know why they go into PTL. It is, IMO, an emergency, one of those situations for which hospitals exist. If my body decided to get appendicitis, a dental abscess, a lump in my breast, lupus, etc., I would seek the care of doctor to handle a situation that was out of my control (however natural it might be).

Preterm labor would be the same thing for me. I don't consider it a variation of normal (like a breech baby or a baby weighing 9.5 pounds). If I were a person that UC'ed, I'd place these type of events (complete placenta previa, prolapsed cord, preterm labor) in a separate category of true emergencies for which I'd get outside help. Maybe especially preterm labor because of the possibility that it could be stopped or delayed, resulting in an otherwise normal healthy birth

I agree that preterm labor is an emergency situation, and also that it can be stopped in many cases. BUT, I also think it depends on how much preterm, and how long a certain woman's pregnancies normally last.

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#17 of 51 Old 02-01-2009, 07:13 PM
 
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"But there are certain sets of risks that come with a UC; most of the cases I've seen involved babies not making it due to shoulder dystocia or undetected cord compression/oxygen deprivation late in labor. Whether or not a woman is willing to embrace those risks (along with the benefits, in comparison with the risks and benefits of other birth choices) is a really complex issue. I think it's important not to brush off the possible risks and say "well death happens and babies die in hospitals too." That's kind of a cop-out answer. Rather, we need to keep our eyes open, do our research and preparation, and seek spiritual/intuitive guidance for whether or not a UC is appropriate in our case."

This resonates with me. I think certainly there will be deaths or injury in UC that could have prevented with intervention or assistance. I also think there is a LOT of death and injury that occurs *because* of intervention. For me, its about *which* risks I choose to accept.

I'm not pregnant, but can't imagine anything other than a UC for future births. Then I think about what if I developed an issue like accreta, twin to twin transfusion, or something warranting medical assistance. So, for now I am not accepting any risk and staying "un-pregnant" lol....

But I think about this alot. I may be back with more thoughts and questions. I am out here lurking and processing.... thanks for being here all of you with your discussions.
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#18 of 51 Old 02-01-2009, 07:46 PM
 
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This resonates with me. I think certainly there will be deaths or injury in UC that could have prevented with intervention or assistance. I also think there is a LOT of death and injury that occurs *because* of intervention. For me, its about *which* risks I choose to accept.
This is exactly my own reasoning in choosing a UC. Both my partner and I have done extensive research, on both sides. And, for us, the risks which I choose to accept are the ones that come with a UC. I'm not willing to risk the hospital. Hospitals scare the heck out of me, frankly. They're places for people who are sick or are having an emergency. I don't think birth is a disease or an emergency, so it scares me to be there during such a time.

Now, if there is an emergency that I could potentially prevent by going to the hospital, i.e. going into labor months too soon, I will. I believe in evaluating risks, not only in advance, but also from moment to moment.

I've never thought pregnancy was a risk free thing. Just like I don't think life is a risk free existence. So, I have definitely thought about the responsibility I am taking when I give birth - not only for myself, but also for another life. I believe I take this responsibility whether or not I am in the hospital. It's just that, in group situations like a hospital setting, it's easy to disperse that responsibility among others. So, people see it as the "safer" or "less risky" option.

Whereas I think the responsibility of choice is mine - regardless of where I give birth. Which is why, after thinking and evaluating and listening to my own feelings, I am choosing to take the risks associated with a UC over the risks in the hospital. That is the choice with which I feel most comfortable and most relaxed.

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#19 of 51 Old 02-02-2009, 01:46 PM
 
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I'm also not a UCer (yet, anyway - I'm considering it if we ever have another baby) but this is something I've thought a lot about too.

It was actually something that bothered me when planning my HB. Within myself, I am prepared to accept responsibility for myself and my choices, and also for my baby while she (or he) is in my care. But it was the knowledge that if anything went wrong in my HB I would be held personally accountable for it by everyone else that I knew. A woman going to give birth in hospital still worries about something going wrong, of course, but at least she doesn't have to worry that if anything should go wrong she will be blamed for it. No woman should have to face the possibility that should anything happen to her or her baby, that instead of utter compassion and support from everyone around her, she may instead have to deal not only with the grief from what went wrong, but also with the approbation of the very people who would provide nothing but support and kindness had the same thing happened in hospital.

I think it's the double standards that bother me too. I personally felt that giving birth in a hospital was riskier for both me and my baby (as in fact it turned out to be when I was coerced into a hospital transfer). I would have blamed myself if anything had happened to me or DD as a result of choosing to birth in hospital, and I do, in fact blame myself for the damage done to both of us at the doctors' hands. But I know that no one else does; everyone else I know is thinking "See how dangerous HB is? How lucky you are that you got to the hospital in time. You reckless irresponsible woman" (In fact, that is almost verbatim what was said to me by one of the doctors who birth raped me as a punishment for trying to keep myself and my baby safe by staying at home).

Society as a whole does not hold women accountable for bad outcomes when they occur in the hospital, even when they occur as the direct result of being in the hospital. We should not (as a whole society) place the burden of the blame on a woman who choses an alternative location for birth. In fact, unless something goes wrong because of deliberately harmful actions (think unnecessary abdominal surgery) there should be no question of blame at all. Sometimes things happen, and people die. It's awful, but it's a part of life. We (in general) need to accept that and stop trying to pretend that doctors and hospitals are endowed with the power to cure everything and prevent death. Sometimes they can, but many times they can't and sometimes they can actually cause problems or kill people through negligence, ignorance or pure nastiness.

Think about it this way: there is a C-section rate of over 30% in most Western countries. The WHO says 10% max is acceptable. I'd like to say lower - maybe 2-3% of medically necessary C-sections, but we'll go with the WHO for now. By that standard there are 20% of women giving birth by totally unnecessary abdominal surgery. C-section increases the risk of maternal mortality by about 4 and the chance of the baby dying is also increased by about 3 (don't have access to the sites for those stats right now, but they're out there). So 20% of women are totally unnecessarily being put at a 4 times greater risk of dying and a 3 times greater risk of their baby dying because they (for the large part) chose to give birth in a hospital. Not to mention all the other things that could be done that cause great damage to mother and or baby but don't actually kill them, and all the other interventions that aren't C-section. Nobody would think of blaming a woman who had died or had her baby die because of an unnecessary C-section.

I have more to say, but baby's teething and screaming right now, so I'll be back.

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#20 of 51 Old 02-02-2009, 03:00 PM
 
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As a hopeful future UCer, I see it as a choice which each woman must make for herself and her baby. Me personally there are things I would seek assistance for including preterm labour but that said other situations are as hopeless in hospital as at home and in cases like these I would rather hold my child in our home and let them pass peacefully than watch them die through plexiglass at a NICU. You know what I mean? Sometime it is just meant to be and no amount of medical or otherwise assistance will save that life.

I've had 5 miscarriages. One was a D+C (the first; b/c I wasn't expelling the "products of conception" as quickly as they liked) the remaining were all done at home alone. The last I carried inside me for two weeks after I discovered no heartbeat until the baby and placenta finally passed. A D+C would have made fast work of it but it didn't feel right for my child to go like that. Another ancedote: my DH's cousin had a child a few years back just before DS1 was conceived and he was born with fatally serious congential defects. They had him in a hospital but the doctor was very compassionate, they let him come vaginally, and he spent his two hours of life in his mother and father's arms. Not alot of hospitals do things like this; there is almost a manic drive to try and save the lives that will not be saved no matter what you do. Its important to consider both sides in this issue.

Austin June 2006; Xander March 2008; Shay Nov 2009; 5 babies gone to heaven.
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#21 of 51 Old 02-02-2009, 05:36 PM
 
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I've been thinking more about this; I think you'd enjoy reading chapter 5 of my dissertation, which is about the concepts of "Safety, Risk, and Responsibility" in unassisted birth.
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#22 of 51 Old 02-18-2009, 12:32 PM
 
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I had an unplanned UC. My HB midwife showed up almost an hour after the birth and after us bringing some things to her attention, was told our baby was fine. Our baby wasn't fine.

In our case, our baby would have survived had she been born in the hospital. The things we brought to the midwife's attention all added up to something serious and our baby needing medical help. If I knew anything about the condition, I could have sought medical help myself.

When you tell people that your baby died because of the fact that she was born at home, you are looked at like you are a murderer. Some people will commiserate with you while others blame you. On top of what others think, you have to live with yourself. Not a day goes by that I don't think about the roll that I played in my daughter's death. It's a hard pill to swallow. I know I blame myself and am harder on myself moreso than anyone else. Some days, it's difficult to just breathe. If I could go back in time, I would of gone to the hospital while I was in labor. I know some people choose to think that some things just happen. BUT, the reality from not only my case, but the cases of others, is that this happens because we made the choices we did. I understand some moms want to think that this would of happened regardless (true in cases for extreme prematurity and genetic anomlies). This, to me, seems like a cop out. I accept full responsibility for what happened but I do also blame the midwife because she was the person who was supposedly trained and experienced. I trusted her. My pregnancy had red flags that I was told were normal. Aside from birthing in the hospital, I should of been seeing a high risk OB. She saw the signs that I would have a premature baby. I trusted her advice and guidance. There is more to the part she played that I won't share here.

Mommy to ds12, dd11, ds8, ds6, dd4, ^dd^ HB Loss, and dd 1
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#23 of 51 Old 02-18-2009, 01:36 PM
 
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Remembering that this is a UC board...

Mommato5 - what happened with you, and your daughter was completely tragic and I am very sorry it happened. I cannot (no one can really) begin to comprehened how you feel, but know that nothing I (or probably anyone) every says is meant to make you feel guilty or to snark on you. It is merely how I feel.

Taking responsibility in a UC/UP is completely different than having an unplanned UC. The unplanned UC isnt really taking responsibility because as was stated your midwife found things that should have been concerning and told you about it. The responsibility for your care (and inevitably your daughters) was with the midwife. Taking responsibility in a UC/UP is about understanding (and yes, accepting) that 'burden'. If any UC'er had any red flags during her pregnancy she wouldnt just let those slide (just as we shouldnt let a midwife let those things slide, or an OB if we feel an uneasiness)..she would seek out answers (from whatever method she felt comfortable) until she had reassurance. Or (and this is a big or and I dont claim its the right or) some UC'ers believe that we shouldnt interfere in the process at all, and if a baby is meant to pass shortly after birth (even from something that could be saved at a hospital) than it is meant to pass.

I am not faulting anyone for the death of a child; it isnt my place. All Im saying is, in taking responsibility we must take it back from MW's...or if we have placed some responsibility in them (or OB's) and we feel something is off we must fight to figure it out, or find a provider that will figure it out...

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#24 of 51 Old 02-18-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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Mommato5, I am so sorry for your loss.

However, I have to agree with the PP, an unplanned UC is not the same as a well educated planned UC. Though there is nothing wrong with it, you gave the responsibility over to a caregiver, a MW, and she let the ball drop.

I DO get prenatal care, but don't really listen much to the OB's because it is always "standard" care stuff. But I UC my babies and also UP myself.

With my last birth, I noticed "something" was not "right". I educated myself and did tons of research. My OB did not catch the early warning signs, but I did.

I called it to the attention of the OB, since they just saw me as numbers and one in the heard. I knew the steps I needed to take BEFORE I even called her.

I then went to the office, was instantantly sent to be induced (which I had known would happen), and ended up having a hospital induced birth. This is all BECAUSE I took responsibility for myself and educated myself to cause/effect, signs/symptoms, and complications of pregnancy.

IF I had continued to UC, I would likely have died as would my son. But even when I went to the hospital, I retained all the responsibility. I had a plan, backed up with educated research, and kept my mind clear and focused.

I take full responsibility for my outcome, no matter how good or bad it was. That is how I take every birth. I refuse to hand over that responsibility to someone that will go home at the end of the day and not have any vested interest in the well being of me or my child.

I still support UC and will plan one again if/when I ever concieve again. And now I have an entirely new set of information that I have to incorportate into my UPing.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#25 of 51 Old 02-18-2009, 10:11 PM
 
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I am a homebirth mother of 2, and going to have my first UC in July. Anyway, here are my thoughts on this:

I totally trust my intuition on this one. I really like I am being "called" to have a UC. I have no other way to explain it. It is like this great cosmic force has overwhelmed me and is saying that this is the way to go. And the way I figure it is this: If I was meant to have a birth a different way (whether it be through homebirth midwives again or in a hospital), I really feel that my intuition would let me know about it ahead of time.
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#26 of 51 Old 02-19-2009, 07:00 PM
 
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you know... I was thinking a lot about this. when a child dies in the hospital and looking back we see how much likelier the baby would have been to be okay if it were born at the hospital (MRSA, RSV, other various bacterial issues, prolapse b/c of ealry AROM ect ect ect) would we not feel just as badly?

the perception may be that if you birth at home then you're totally responsible for the outcome, but if you birth at the hospital it's proof that you did all that you could and are not responsible for the death of the child.

but it truly isn't that way. as parents we're responsible for our children either way. whether we decide hospital or home (or the woods for that matter) to be the healthiest choice for our baby, there is NO guarantee.

and blaming a midwife? well sadly this is what happens if you hand over the keys to another person. you stop thinking and start relying on ANOTHER'S intuition. but if you feel something is wrong, it's not up to the midwife to act, but you.

I'm not saying this meanly or unkindly at all! just the opposite!

the question then becomes: who's fault is the outcome of this birth!? who caused my child to die? and it's just so easy to take on the blame or assign it to another person. but the truth of the matter is so much of life is a mystery. we do the best we know how. and no matter how much we want to do the best thing in every situation and never ever loose anyonewe love - it happens. we make mistakes. we see clerly in hindsight... ect. but you know? that is not anyone's fault. we are imperfect beings. we don't have the answers to all of the life's questions and we can't prevent all tragic outcomes. we just can't.

we can all look back and see mistakes we made - even though we were well meaning. we can see tragedy narrowly escaped. that car we almost hit when we looked back to see if our baby was sleeping in the backseat. that time we almost dropped the baby because we were so sleep deprived... and sometimes... sometimes we do hit that car. and sometimes we do drop that baby. and it is so hard for us to understand. so hard to comprehend how something went so very wrong. and it hurts us to the core. and we say "we should have known better!" or "it was that person's fault b/c I trusted them". but really it doesn't matter... because it hurts so deeply either way.

mommato5 - my heart goes out to you. I can't imagine the sadness yourheart mustfeel I do hope you are able to not blame yourself for this. I hope you can embrace your daughter's life for the short time she was with you. and I hope you can begin to heal. :

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#27 of 51 Old 02-19-2009, 07:34 PM
 
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It is true that you can not know what will happen, and can only do what you think is best. And when something happens that is not perfect, in hindsight you may be able to pinpoint exactly what went wrong, where you could have made a different choice, maybe even the exact moment things took a turn for the worst. But in the heat of the moment, it is near impossible to do this.

As I look back at my daughter's accident, I can name a hundred, no a thousand things that I could have done differently that would have averted this. But I can never go back and undo it. It was horrible. It was tragic. But it was an accident. Could it have been prevented? Yes. Could I have changed things if I had known then what I know now? Yes. Can I do anything now? No. All I can do is to live and learn, not blame myself, not blame someone else, accept it for what it was.

And although I accept full responsibility for the accident and her subsequent injuries and death, I do no "blame" myself. I also do not "blame" anyone else. It was an accident. It happened. I am now smarter, stronger, more careful, and much more educated than I was then.

So, just remember, that accepting responsibility does not mean to "blame" yourself. There is no changing the past. All you can do is to learn from it and move on. It is not always easy. But it is necessary.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#28 of 51 Old 02-19-2009, 08:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homemademomma View Post
this is not to be construed as criticism, as i know this forum is "support only."
I just want to note, this forum is *not* "support only"

This forum accepts disagreement people just have to be nice about it.

They cannot start calling people names, making accusations or telling people they are "going to kill their baby" but people can address individual situations if they are polite.

Not all those who wander are lost 
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#29 of 51 Old 02-19-2009, 08:49 PM
 
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First I want to say thank you for everyone who has shared so much wisdom, compassionately in this thread. I find this topic very important to discuss and it can be difficult to find the safe space to talk about this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post
This is an interesting topic, and an important one! It is also difficult to discuss, especially for those of us who have never suffered a loss, because it is so emotionally charged for those who have.

I agree with you. I feel that it is important for the rational part of our brains to "remember" the inherent risk involved in birth for the motherbaby that generations of women understood before the current technocracy emerged. There is a point at which too much technology produces its own problems, and we have reached and surpassed that point in obstetrics in the US, IMHO. We will never defeat death, never. It is there waiting for us all.

I choose to embrace the unlikely possibility of death as part of the birth process, for both myself and my child. My personal beliefs allow me to accept that the spirit continues, even while those still living mourn. I do not feel that this is irresponsible or unfair or criminal. Birth sometimes includes death. Ultimately no one can foretell how a birth will play out. Insistence that all births are safer in the presence of technology is both incorrect an dishonoring of the spiritual knowledge women hold of their bodies, their babies, and their births.
This is ultimately my situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiyt View Post

Mommato5 - what happened with you, and your daughter was completely tragic and I am very sorry it happened. I cannot (no one can really) begin to comprehened how you feel, but know that nothing I (or probably anyone) every says is meant to make you feel guilty or to snark on you. It is merely how I feel.

Taking responsibility in a UC/UP is completely different than having an unplanned UC. The unplanned UC isnt really taking responsibility because as was stated your midwife found things that should have been concerning and told you about it. The responsibility for your care (and inevitably your daughters) was with the midwife. Taking responsibility in a UC/UP is about understanding (and yes, accepting) that 'burden'. If any UC'er had any red flags during her pregnancy she wouldnt just let those slide (just as we shouldnt let a midwife let those things slide, or an OB if we feel an uneasiness)..she would seek out answers (from whatever method she felt comfortable) until she had reassurance. Or (and this is a big or and I dont claim its the right or) some UC'ers believe that we shouldnt interfere in the process at all, and if a baby is meant to pass shortly after birth (even from something that could be saved at a hospital) than it is meant to pass.

I am not faulting anyone for the death of a child; it isnt my place. All Im saying is, in taking responsibility we must take it back from MW's...or if we have placed some responsibility in them (or OB's) and we feel something is off we must fight to figure it out, or find a provider that will figure it out...
I think it is extremely important that we all begin to take responsibility regardless of whether we have an attending dr or mw. When we take that responsibility I think it lends us to having more confidence in hearing, listening and acting on our intuition. We are the number one expert for ourselves and our babies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty View Post
It is true that you can not know what will happen, and can only do what you think is best. And when something happens that is not perfect, in hindsight you may be able to pinpoint exactly what went wrong, where you could have made a different choice, maybe even the exact moment things took a turn for the worst. But in the heat of the moment, it is near impossible to do this.

As I look back at my daughter's accident, I can name a hundred, no a thousand things that I could have done differently that would have averted this. But I can never go back and undo it. It was horrible. It was tragic. But it was an accident. Could it have been prevented? Yes. Could I have changed things if I had known then what I know now? Yes. Can I do anything now? No. All I can do is to live and learn, not blame myself, not blame someone else, accept it for what it was.

And although I accept full responsibility for the accident and her subsequent injuries and death, I do no "blame" myself. I also do not "blame" anyone else. It was an accident. It happened. I am now smarter, stronger, more careful, and much more educated than I was then.

So, just remember, that accepting responsibility does not mean to "blame" yourself. There is no changing the past. All you can do is to learn from it and move on. It is not always easy. But it is necessary.

kidzaplenty....such wise, wise words. Thank you so much for speaking so clearly and eloquently. Thank you for sharing your experience.

mommato5-I know nothing I can say can make anything better. I truly hope you are able to find peace someday. What a beautiful baby.
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#30 of 51 Old 02-20-2009, 09:30 AM
 
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[QUOTE=HennyPenny;13221523]

and blaming a midwife? well sadly this is what happens if you hand over the keys to another person. you stop thinking and start relying on ANOTHER'S intuition. but if you feel something is wrong, it's not up to the midwife to act, but you.

I can relate to this................ as a Doula in Uk I am not 'legally' allowed to attend a UB. However, I am often asked if I will do so especially if there are siblings to take care off or they feel they would like some support with general household duities, both before and after the birth.
They can however, 'invite' me to be there as opposed to 'booking' me.
There are times when a UB in a very rural area without ANY mod cons, so to speak, miles from civilisation and emergency support would, I feel, benefit from the support of a Doula, if only to take the pressure of the couple so they can concentrate on birthing their baby.
A dilema indeed as I know of a situation where with a UB in this situation the baby did die ( a premature birth) and although the parents 'accepted' the situation and aportioned no blame on anybody, it was noted eventually that a registered Doula had been 'invited' and ended up in alot of trouble.
My opinion is that if the parents have decided that UB is for them and the responsibilty is theirs, then 'invite' a Doula for whatever reasons they need one, then this should be the business of nobody else. Surely if I can play a small part in supporting the birth then this can only make for a safer more harmonious birth.

: mum of Meg
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