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#1 of 46 Old 03-01-2009, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought I'd start us a new thread over here so we can stop bickering on a support thread.

Often times a labouring mama will get on here and post a thread asking for support. It tends to follow a certain path: excitement in the first few pages, casual support in the next, and in the even it goes for awhile it soon becomes a debate. An us vs. them sort of deal.

How do we (general we) define what is support and what is paranoia? Support or "dispensing of medical advice"? Wayward support or constructive thoughts? What do you deem support? I've noticed a lot that what some of us deem support (i.e You can do it! Stay home for as long as you like! or even Head on in and get checked out!) is seen as bad advice from others. How do you define the difference between SUPPORT and ADVICE?

Let's try and keep this civil so it can actually evolve into a discussion and none of us get spankings.

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#2 of 46 Old 03-01-2009, 10:53 PM
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I am so glad you posted this. i am newish to the whole online support thing and was starting to feel overwhelmed. I love coming to these boards and I feel I learn something new every day. I might not agree with all the posts but they always teach me something new, even about myself. i love finding practical solutions and ideas. That being said, just because someone says to me, pulsatilla worked wonders for me, does not mean I will go out and take it. It just gives me an idea and I can go and research and speak with a homeopath etc and make another informed choice. I feel that we are talking to strangers and we can not take their word as fact. I think support and advice is a hard thing to distinguish between. But I do feel we have to take ownership and responsibility of how we react to peoples comments. I know sometimes peoples comments and support have helped me so much. Other times when they disagree, I am left feeling a little sad. then I remind myself of their right to voice their opinion and to try not take it too seriously. At the end of the day, I think what is hard is that it is hard to read a "tone" online and things can easily get misinterpreted. Okay I am rambling! But thanks. I just posted elsewhere and was starting to wish I had not. I am looking forward to reading and learning from this thread.

wbg...constantly amazed by Z , cherishing I , inspired by P , adoring K and still getting butterflies when I wake up with B !
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#3 of 46 Old 03-01-2009, 11:04 PM
 
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It is not an issue of us vs. them

Though I believe it shouldn't be a UC at all costs (i.e. losing a mama or a baby)... at some point the best support may be encouraging someone to go to a hospital or seek other professional advice.

Paranoia isn't paranoia when something real is happening. I agree there has to be a balance though.

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(Mama to West (11/07) Mabel Kelly 10/02/09)
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#4 of 46 Old 03-01-2009, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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By us vs. them I wasn't being specific to any one person/group. I just meant that often times the thread ends up splitting and soon we get two groups...those who feel they are offering undying support and those who feel they are to by saying go to the hospital. Both groups are being supportive but each group disagrees as to who is truely being supportive. That's who I meant by us vs. them.

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#5 of 46 Old 03-01-2009, 11:32 PM
 
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Id like to know what thread(s) you are referring to - because Ive never seen one of those before.

But I will think on this issue in general..and come back...

Lindsay: DS#1 (06/06) DD#1 (09/07) DS#2 (10/08) DD#2 (06/09). AND A BABY DUE NOVEMBER 2013

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#6 of 46 Old 03-01-2009, 11:41 PM
 
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Id like to know what thread(s) you are referring to - because Ive never seen one of those before.

But I will think on this issue in general..and come back...
Let's keep this discussion general, please.
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#7 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 12:58 AM
 
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I think you can be supportive even when suggesting someone consider going to the hospital, it's when people start ordering/begging someone to go to the hospital or trying to scare someone that it crosses the line.

There's a huge difference, imo, between "It's ok to go to the hospital if you feel you need to." or even "If I were you, I'd probably go to the hospital." & "You have to go to the hospital or your baby is going to die!!!!". Just as there's a huge difference between "It's ok to stay at home if you feel things are ok." & "Stay away from the hospital!"

mom to all boys B: 08/01ribboncesarean.gif,  C: 07/05 uc.jpg, N: 03/09 uc.jpg, M: 01/12 uc.jpg and far too many lost onesintactlact.gifsaynovax.gif

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#8 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:12 AM
 
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I think you put it perfectly, Devaskyla.
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#9 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:15 AM
 
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oh yikes... that REALLY does depend on the type of thread and what is being asked for.

if someone say "I want a UC and I need some support b/c I've having a hard time dealing with these contractions" that's one thing...

but if another mom says "I don't know if i should go ot the hospital or not b/c I'm bleeding a whole lot and I'm scared" well that's another.

then again I guess we could always just say the oh so helpful "go with your instincts" comment but sometimes... sometimes we need more than a pat on the back. sometimes people want a HUG or they want someone to say "go to the hospital if you think you need to". and sometimes... it's just really really hard toknow what the right thing is to say but you hate to see someone's call for "help" left unanswered completely.

(ok... did i beat around the bush enough!? haha)

transtichel.gifMom of three - (2.5 yrs, 7yrs, and 11yrs). Birthing Doula, editor, and wife to my soulmate. I've had a c/s, hospital VBAC, UC and not yet decided what I'll do about this next little one

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#10 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:36 AM
 
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Maybe its safest to say something along the lines of:

"If I were in your place I would ................ But thats just me."

Then if the advice doesnt sound right to the mothers current needs she can ignore it.

I guess thats how I try to give advice anyway. I can misread a situation and do not want to be demanding or have someone do something wrong based on my advice.
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#11 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 07:08 AM
 
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For me, I will explain WHY I'm giving these opinions. I'm not a qualified midwife, but I've spent the last 11 years obsessed with birth, with birth stories.

Where a mother is not clearly demonstrating that she's taken full responsibility for educating herself on normal childbirth then I will be blunter and more prescriptive than I would otherwise. I do negatively judge people who are UCing, in active labour or postpartum, having significant problems and turning to the internet for advice. THIS is what midwives, OBs and labour wards are there for. (I have strong views on the provision of universal maternity care, ask me if you want.) A bunch of other mamas who have been through natural childbirth does not equate to the knowledge of a trained, skilled professional. Professionals see the things that go wrong. That's what they're there for- to help with these awkward situations.

Support does not mean unquestioning agreement. Sometimes, very occasionally, it takes someone outside the situation to repeat what they've said back to them (like an active listening technique) so the OP can see that they are making light of something that could be important. Sometimes, I believe that plain speaking is appropriate. What will the likely response be if I say xyz? What if I don't say it? What if I don't say it and the baby dies?

There is another issue here. For me, I can live with the small risk that my baby will die during labour or before birth. I've lost one before, and I know that I can survive. I do not believe it is possible to have a UC and to have the same statistics of stillbirth that a hospital birth will have, because sometimes a fast transfer just isn't fast enough. If you can't handle that additional risk, then maybe you shouldn't be UCing.

I personally feel that "go with your instincts" is a cop-out. In these threads, the poster is generally acknowledging that her instincts are not guiding her straight and her head and logic is taking over. For me, that's a red flag in and of itself when a labour is going awry.

Think of it more as loving guidance. Do we follow the example in the Continuum Concept and let our 3yo wave sharp knives around trusting that they'll be responsible if we show no fear, because a sense of danger is innate? Or do we explain the danger and show them how we pass and carry knives and scissors safely?

Helen mum to five and mistress of mess and mayhem, making merry and mischief til the sun goes down.
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#12 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 08:41 AM
 
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There is another issue here. For me, I can live with the small risk that my baby will die during labour or before birth. I've lost one before, and I know that I can survive. I do not believe it is possible to have a UC and to have the same statistics of stillbirth that a hospital birth will have, because sometimes a fast transfer just isn't fast enough. If you can't handle that additional risk, then maybe you shouldn't be UCing.
but sometimes it's the mother in danger and although I honestly have little feelings for a complete stranger to risk their life, the children left behind without a mother somehow tear my heart out

ITA about going online to seek medical advice though my DD was sickly for 4 months everyone said she was fine, well now we know she wasn't fine and honestly I didn't push as hard cause all these mothers I knew and trusted said to chill out
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#13 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 08:45 AM
 
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What if I don't say it? What if I don't say it and the baby dies?
That is a very interesting comment. It seems to indicate that, if a laboring mom asks for advice, those reading the UC board are somehow obliged to give advice, or are responsible for any emergency situation if their knowledge is nor shared. Personally I have avoided giving any kind of answer on those threads - other than "happy laboring" or something along those lines. After all, I am not there and can't see what is going on. Also, I did enough research to feel prepared enough for *my own labor* but am not a mw or doctor, and don't feel in a position to tell other what to do. I tend to think the internet in general and this board in particular is an excellent place to look for info and to help in preparing for a UC. I can also understand people wanting to share the fact they are in labor with the people that have helped them through their journey to prepare for their birth. Indeed, I can understand people asking for advice during labor. However, I don't feel comfortable with answering questions like "Help, my baby's shoulders are stuck, what should I do?"

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#14 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 08:55 AM
 
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Arwyn, OT, another Dr Who fan? :

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#15 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 09:33 AM
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i think of support as being a reflective process: what the mom says she wants, i support even if i disagree or feel uneasy about it.

i see advice as the process of my evaluation of the situation: the mom, uncertain of what she wants or seeking other's insight, asks for information/advice. then, i give the best information that i can based on my experience, if it hasn't been covered by someone else.

sometimes, people come here seeking both, as is evident from their post. if a mom writes: my water broke, i feel great! i'm excited to UC! and then later follows with--it's been 25 hrs and i'm nervous, should i go to the hospital or UC?

this second one is asking for advice, but it's also asking for support of continuing the UC (imo, that's in the tone). this is where it gets tricky. typically, i offer support: do what you feel is right! which is both advice and support.

if the seeker is obviously seeking advice, then i will offer it "should i go to the hospital? i feel X, Y, and Z." then i would say "if it were me, in light of x, y, and z, i would go." or something like this.

with this, i have no expectation of people requiring my advice (or support for that matter), or that either of these things asserts any responsibility over someone else's choices. each of us is responsible for our own choices, regardless of positive or negative outcomes.
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#16 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 10:07 AM
 
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i think of support as being a reflective process: what the mom says she wants, i support even if i disagree or feel uneasy about it.

i see advice as the process of my evaluation of the situation: the mom, uncertain of what she wants or seeking other's insight, asks for information/advice. then, i give the best information that i can based on my experience, if it hasn't been covered by someone else.

sometimes, people come here seeking both, as is evident from their post. if a mom writes: my water broke, i feel great! i'm excited to UC! and then later follows with--it's been 25 hrs and i'm nervous, should i go to the hospital or UC?

this second one is asking for advice, but it's also asking for support of continuing the UC (imo, that's in the tone). this is where it gets tricky. typically, i offer support: do what you feel is right! which is both advice and support.

if the seeker is obviously seeking advice, then i will offer it "should i go to the hospital? i feel X, Y, and Z." then i would say "if it were me, in light of x, y, and z, i would go." or something like this.

with this, i have no expectation of people requiring my advice (or support for that matter), or that either of these things asserts any responsibility over someone else's choices. each of us is responsible for our own choices, regardless of positive or negative outcomes.
We are responsible for our own choices, yes, but we are also responsible for our own words. I'm arguing that as members of this community- known UCers, known natural birth advocates- our word carries great weight, perhaps more than it should. To read a post which gets your alarm bells going- hypothetically, where the waters have been broken for upwards of 72 hours, mother has been contracting for much of that time and baby is obviously transverse- and to not offer meaningful words (that is to say, to post a response, but only the light, meaningless platitudes like "trust your intuition") is to do her, and yourself, a disservice. Think about what you're saying.This is real. It's not pretend. There are lives at stake here.
I think also, in reflecting the mothers words and emotions to her, we have to ensure that the vision stays clear or becomes even clearer so that her pathway becomes more obvious, not less.

MK, if you had information that could help my ruptured-membraned, transverse-positioned mum and baby, you didn't post, no-one else suggested it and then baby (or mother) died where does that leave you morally? Me? Anyone? Better to speak from the heart than think "if only..."

And OT, I'm making Dalek biscuits

Helen mum to five and mistress of mess and mayhem, making merry and mischief til the sun goes down.
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#17 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 11:34 AM
 
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I think the problem comes when those of us who can't know the situation fully try to coerce or scare the poster into the course we think is right. I don't think it is a cop out to say what you would do, and I don't think that uncertianty in labor is a sign that something is awry. Our culture teaches us to fear birth, that it is extremely dangerous, and that anything outside of some very small paramiters of normal is an emergency. I think some of us are not as far past that as others, and labor can bring out those underlying fears and beliefs. Especially when things don't go in a textbook fashion.
I'm going to use my birth as an example so I can be a bit more specific without violating anyone's pivacy. My last experience was a mw assisted birth, by hour 42 I asked for a VE and was told I was a Maybe 2, and baby had not fully decended. I worry if I had been UC this birth, and come here from support, from the many posts I've seen I think I would have been told to go to the hospital. Where I don't know what would have happened, but if I got some of the talk I think I would I would have been scared not to. I say that knowing that at that point I knew nothing was wrong, but was uncomfortable and in a fairly suggestive state. Obviously that is not how it happened DD was born 2 hours later with no problems.
I think it can actually be dangerous to take so much responsiblity for a birth that we are not present for. I would feel terrible to panic someone into transferring when it wasn't needed, knowing some true horrible outcomes from that senario.
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#18 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 11:57 AM
 
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At the same time, I think it's also dangerous to tell a woman to "just trust your instincts", etc and stay home when maybe it isn't the best thing for her or her baby. I understand not wanting to birth in a hospital, but there are times when we need to put our own desires aside for what is best for our children. Believe me, I want my dream birth also, but not at the expense of my child.
I think encouraging an obviously dangerous situation (and I am all for hb'ing and uc'ing when the person is prepared and informed) is a bad idea.


ETA: And I understand everyone's alarm bells are different, but common sense should tell you when something isn't going right. Yes, I agree with following your instincts, but sometimes those can be clouded by peer pressure and the desire for a dream birth.
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#19 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:10 PM
 
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I think encouraging an obviously dangerous situation (and I am all for hb'ing and uc'ing when the person is prepared and informed) is a bad idea.


ETA: And I understand everyone's alarm bells are different, but common sense should tell you when something isn't going right. Yes, I agree with following your instincts, but sometimes those can be clouded by peer pressure and the desire for a dream birth.
The trouble here is that most of these it's not obvious, we are not generally looking at someone clearly bleeding to death or with a transverse baby. It's usually, a long labor which can be perfectly normal, seeming excessive pain which is subjective, waters broken which can be for days keeping an eye on signs of infection. It seems that many of those who urge transfer so quickly assume the mother has no idea how to handle anything outside the ordinary, and has not done anything to prepare. As someone who has researched and prepared I find that more than a little insulting. We have to remember that what we are getting is a tiny fraction of what is actually going on, and it may sound different then it actually is. I know I didn't really think or mean some things I said in labor, that most likely made it sound much worse then it really was.
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#20 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:16 PM
 
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MK, if you had information that could help my ruptured-membraned, transverse-positioned mum and baby, you didn't post, no-one else suggested it and then baby (or mother) died where does that leave you morally? Me? Anyone? Better to speak from the heart than think "if only..."
Well, that would be a theoretical question only because "my advice" will definitely already be out there. Plus tons of other advice, too!

When I went into labor, I was online, still had some work to finish and considered coming onto MDC to share my news. I decided not to because I wanted to concentrate on the labor.

OTOH, I did do something much worse. About halfway through labor I got a text message from a friend (in another country). He asked "How are you?" and I stupidly answered "Great, I'm in labor!". His next comment was something along the lines of, what is going to happen now. "Well, I am going to have a baby, hopefully!", I said. He asked when, and I obviously said I didn't know. Then followed....

When are you going to hospital???

While he knew I wasn't. Then, even worse, Who is with you?? Naively, I said my DD was with me. I then got so stressed out by all the messages that followed that I had to switch off my cell . So don't do this!

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#21 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:28 PM
 
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There is nothing you can tell her medically that is helpful.
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#22 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:32 PM
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I guess I always understood UC as taking full "ownership" of your decisions and choices. Being able to trust your body and listen to its messages. So if a UC Mama transfers to a hospital or calls in a MW it is because she has chosen to do so, and hopefully not been pressured or bullied into doing so. If a UC Mama seeks online support, she owns that decision too, and needs to find the strength to cope with all the responses that she gets. I would like to believe that everyone who posts, is coming with honest and good intentions, even if they are not telling her what she wants to hear. She can always then "choose" to go offline until she wants to deal with any of the comments. MDC is very clear about stating that we are all just sharing personal, subjective opinions, so I think if you come here you need to be aware of that. When I post I never think that someone will take my post as medical advice, but as what it is: a personal expression. It might be based on my own experience or something I have come across on a more professional level. But I do not claim to have intimate knowledge of their medical situation. It is just a way of sharing information.
I think it is a huge leap for an online sharing board to become a place where we are ethically accountable for the birth outcome and infant mortality of the posters. I do feel that we have a responsibility to post respectfully and thoughtfully and within the MDC guidelines. I hope that makes sense!?

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#23 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 01:48 PM
 
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You know...it's tough to know what to do sometimes.

A mama who was perfectly educated, confident and connected to her momma bear intution going into a UC can end up hitting that place where you sort of think "okay, can I do this?" and come here saying "I'm tired, it's been so long and I'm feeling like I can't do this, what if soemthings wrong??" - someone who maybe is feeling shaky with the UC process might say "If you feel like something is wrong call 911, it's time to get you in to the hospital" and that can feed the birthing mammas sense that she can't do it...where as the same birthing goddess mamma who comes and posts that plea for voices could instead read a post from a mama which reads: "You CAN do this, I know it feels like it's been such a long time, but you know when you get to feeeling that way that it means you are close, you are a birthing queen and you can do this" - and maybe that's what she needed to hear to help her get over that hump...you know?

I know that about a half hour from the end of my labor with Avery...I hit that place. I looked up into my husbands eyes and with every ounce of me I screamed with my eyes "I can't do this. I can't do this" and his eyes said lovingly back to me: "You are my queen, I love you and you are doing so great" and I was instantly catapulted back to that place of "I've got this, I'm so close...ooooopppppeeeeeennn!!!" - and like I said, half hour later, I was holding a baby.

It had been 31.5 hours since my water broke, I was tired, I was worn down....what if I had posted here and someone had said "Look, I had a friend who had a long labor (not that 31 hours is so long) and her baby died, so, maybe you should go to a hospital!" - what would that have done to my ability to be bounced back to that positive place? Right now, not in labor, I can tell you that I would kindly ignore that persons well meaning advice....but if I were in labor, if I were that tired and worn down...maybe it would chip away at whatever reserves of "I can do this" I had left, you know?

I think what it comes down to is that advice should be dealt more carefully than support. Support is that building back up, that reminder that "you've got this, your body know how to do this"....advice is "Okay, you think your baby is breech...here is some information on breech delivery. If you think you don't want to deliver breech alone, maybe you should call a MW or transfer, many women do it just fine though...you are a birthing goddess no matter what you choose!" - A person coming here for support, needs support....but someone looking for advice, is REALLY looking for information...so, if you don't have information, and you don't have anything supposrtive to say in lieu of informaiton...maybe you should just walk away.

This about it: Someone comes with that same scenario "I think my baby is breech" and you say "Oh my gosh, honey maybe you ahouls transfer, I knew someone whose baby died because she tried to deliver her breech alone" - that is such bullsh*t! Because it is just as poisonous as if you were to say "Oh, breech is easy, just do it!" - those are both ridiculous things to say. The thing that most UC mamas here would say is what I posted above: "Okay, you think your baby is breech...here is some information on breech delivery. If you think you don't want to deliver breech alone, maybe you should call a MW or transfer, many women do it just fine though...you are a birthing goddess no matter what you choose!" See?

So, one can be as smug as she wants in saying "well, I'm just giving realistic advice because I don't want a little baby's blood on my hands" - but that is not fair. Because that mama who decided to UC, knewthat there are variations of normal if she did ANY research before her birth and she doesn't need to hear your stupid story about how babies die all the time being born breech or whatever other nonsense...I think if someone finds themselves posting something that sounds negative for the fact that they want to "cover their behind" by throwing out that worst case scenario...they should just not post.

I agree that supportive encouragement should be given wisely....but I also think that nine times our of ten, the UCer who is coming on here for informatio or support, is NOT going to be basing 100% of her decisions on the opinon of people on the forum...because that just flies completely in the face of everything that UC means. I don't know tat this is something a non-UCaccepting mamma can fully grasp and maybe she should think about that before she posts advice here to a woman in labor. If you aren't comfortable with UC, you're not going to be able to give very constructive advice to a UC mamma because YOU would be more confortable were she in a hospital or with a MW. Soo, I'm not trying to say "Uc only club" - but it's not fair for you to come and pee on someones parade who CAN DO IT, who is just coming to be reminded that she is in the company (if only in spirit) of other mammas who have been there and who are rooting for her.

When I UC my next baby.....if I come to a place where I need information, I will call my midwife for advice....and I will post here for support and information. If, when I UC, I have a long tedious labor and come ehre worn down and needing that boost from you mammas and someone sticks their head onto my head to "remind me" that "babies can die when being born at home and that if I'm tired maybe I should transfer...." I can't promise that in my volitile state I won't chew your head off for being a discouraging busy body in "well meaning" clothing.

PS: When I say "you" I am not talking about anyone here AT ALL! I'm just meaning the "general you"....I think this conversation is important, because I think that mammas who are not comofrtable with UC need to respect that some women are, and some women are een comfortable with UC NO MATTER WHAT...and that is their choice and it should be respected. I'm not saying tell a mama what you think she wants to hear, but there is an extreme and very important difference between giving you realiztic, constructive and supportive advice BASED UPON your desire to UC...and someone harassing you because secretly they think that your UCing is dangerous and stupid. Please, if a lady wants that kind of harassment, she'll just transfer already!!

:::

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Me and DH ...lovin' DD dust.gif(6/08) and DS kid.gif(11/09) Plus NEW BABY!! DD baby.gif (UC-5/12) We heartbeat.gif Water Birth/Homebirth/No Vax or Circ/BF/BW/Country Livin'! chicken3.gif

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#24 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 02:22 PM
 
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Yes. If her instincts send her here, then it's a sign that she needs input.
That's my thoughts exactly. If she's seeking input she's seeking input.

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#25 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 02:34 PM
 
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I think it's also dangerous to tell a woman to "just trust your instincts", etc and stay home when maybe it isn't the best thing for her or her baby.
Trusting your instincts could very well mean that a birthing mother would choose to go to the hospital...but the point would be HER instincts, not YOURS. She doesn't need you telling her to do anything in particular. Trusting your instincts doesn't always mean she will stay home, it means she will do what she feels is right for her baby & her own situation. It is the GIFT of UC.

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#26 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 02:38 PM
 
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There is nothing you can tell her medically that is helpful. You do not know her body like she does, you do not know her mindset like she does...you are not there and medical opinions have no place in this situation. If she wanted that she would have HIRED a midwife.
The above statement assumes that all women UC for the same reasons. Some may have desired to hire a mw, but because of availability in their area or finances or any other number of reasons, they didn't/couldn't. And so they choose UC over a hospital birth. I just don't think it is safe to assume that women are coming from a place of deep understanding and intuition. So if they are seeking advice, I cannot know if they have done extensive research and are comfortable with situations that might arise during a UC or if they were dropped by their OB because they refused to schedule their RCS at 35 wks and decided to UC instead of face unnecessary surgery This makes for a sticky situation, kwim?

I understand that I can rely on intuition and my knowledge, but that I am not omnipotent. If I put myself out there, especially if I seem unsure of myself, I am welcoming more perspectives than my own. And some of them may be helpful.

Midwifery Student and Mama to 2 daughters and 3 sons.     
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#27 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 02:44 PM
 
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So if they are seeking advice, I cannot know if they have done extensive research and are comfortable with situations that might arise during a UC or if they were dropped by their OB because they refused to schedule their RCS at 35 wks and decided to UC instead of face unnecessary surgery This makes for a sticky situation, kwim?
If that is the case and they are really looking for some good medical advice, then they have so many options for that. They can go over to the birth professionals forum and get professional opinions...or they could do something IRL like make phone calls or actually have a visit with a birth professional.

It is my feeling that if they are posting in the UC forum they usually want support...and on the chance that they are seeking medical advice IN the UC forum, they want it from other UCers. It certainly doesn't preclude any and all posters and advice (as i realize the UC forum is not support only), but the assumption is that they want advice from other people who understand and agree with UC.

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#28 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 02:55 PM
 
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If that is the case and they are really looking for some good medical advice, then they have so many options for that. They can go over to the birth professionals forum and get professional opinions...or they could do something IRL like make phone calls or actually have a visit with a birth professional.

It is my feeling that if they are posting in the UC forum they usually want support...and on the chance that they are seeking medical advice IN the UC forum, they want it from other UCers. It certainly doesn't preclude any and all posters and advice (as i realize the UC forum is not support only), but the assumption is that they want advice from other people who understand and agree with UC.
Then do you think that there is a time, where as a UCer or a UC-supportive person, it is wise to say, "This could be normal, but it also could be a sign of a problem. Perhaps you should seek out a mw/OB?" This (obviously) shows a judgment on the non-laboring woman's part, but the ball is still in the birthing woman's court.

Midwifery Student and Mama to 2 daughters and 3 sons.     
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#29 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 03:13 PM
 
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I guess I always understood UC as taking full "ownership" of your decisions and choices. Being able to trust your body and listen to its messages. So if a UC Mama transfers to a hospital or calls in a MW it is because she has chosen to do so, and hopefully not been pressured or bullied into doing so. If a UC Mama seeks online support, she owns that decision too, and needs to find the strength to cope with all the responses that she gets. I would like to believe that everyone who posts, is coming with honest and good intentions, even if they are not telling her what she wants to hear. She can always then "choose" to go offline until she wants to deal with any of the comments. MDC is very clear about stating that we are all just sharing personal, subjective opinions, so I think if you come here you need to be aware of that. When I post I never think that someone will take my post as medical advice, but as what it is: a personal expression. It might be based on my own experience or something I have come across on a more professional level. But I do not claim to have intimate knowledge of their medical situation. It is just a way of sharing information.
I think it is a huge leap for an online sharing board to become a place where we are ethically accountable for the birth outcome and infant mortality of the posters. I do feel that we have a responsibility to post respectfully and thoughtfully and within the MDC guidelines. I hope that makes sense!?
This, and if I could quote your other post I would too. Honestly...if you are truly trusting your instincts, would you need to get online and ask for feedback? I don't ever post on these threads because I'm not a UC'er, but I would think just taking that step would be a sign that things have stepped out of the realm of normal. I have had 2 completely normal, easy and wonderful out of hospital births, and while I had midwives in attendance, I didn't need them to tell me things were "right". I guess I was lucky to have that background because in my third birth, where things weren't right and I needed the help of the hospital, again I knew that without being told. I did ask my midwife "What next?" But in my head I had been thinking we needed to go if things didn't change for about an hour. I don't think "trust your instincts" is as much of a cop out as I would have previous to that experience, because I don't have near the trust in birth that most of you UC'ing ladies have, nor do I feel like a particularly intuitive person yet I STILL knew it in my bones when something was wrong.

I'm not saying everyone who posts a question during labor is an idiot who clearly needs to transfer...I could see it very much in the same light of me asking my midwife if we should head out, it's support in the moment that you're looking for and if you have opted not to have a birth attendant present then where else would you go for info? but I do feel like those who feel they have this heavy burden of say something, don't say something, say the right thing are taking on too much. Women giving birth anywhere need to own their choices and can choose to take or ignore advice as they please. Just by posting they have to know there's the possibility someone is going to say something their gut isn't, and then they have to decide who to listen too. I know if my midwife had suggested staying home some more, I would have listened to my body and said "Sorry, I'm done, and we need to go." KWIM?

I really hope I'm not considered a "snoop". I learn a lot reading and lurking here but I rarely post because I just don't have much to add not being a UCer. But as a doula and general lover of all things birth, I find so many things over here educational and fascinating.

mama to 3 girls: Abigail 2.12.05, Eliana 8.26.06, Willa 1.9.09
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#30 of 46 Old 03-02-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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I have removed several posts. We will try this one last time; any further violations will result in this thread's closure.

Some more things to remember:

*To quote an old signature of mine, "Don't feed the trolls. What feeds the trolls? Calling people trolls." This applies both to direct attacks and insinuations about other posters on other threads.
*In that vein, please assume EVERYONE has good intent here. If you believe they do not, do not engage with them; ignore them, PM them privately, or hit the report button or PM a moderator.
*Most everyone has been good about this so far, but let's be sure to keep the conversation general. The UA prohibits discussing (or alluding to) other posts or members in a way that is insulting, violates their privacy, or denigrates them, which beings used "as an example" (explicitly or implicitly) certainly does.
*Conversely, while it is fine to use oneself as an example, please remember to not take things personally; a critique of a similar situation is not the same as an attack against oneself. Disagreement can be done and must be done without attack or insult (including insinuations that one's actions were negligently or criminally risky).

Ok. Let's try this again, last shot.
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