If you had to defend your decision to UC to authorities... - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Clearly and concisely, in a way that even people who tend to think birth is more dangerous than a hurricane, and who think they are Bureaucratic Gods might understand - what would you say? Which statistics and figures might you bring up? What do you think one should avoid saying?

(Yeah, I really need this, will update on why later, but would rather not say too much online until the glitch is over!)

Please add all your thoughts. Thank you so much!

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#2 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 11:40 AM
 
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This is the main reason I did my own "prental care" on the same schedule any doctor would have done (a chart which included blood pressure, urinalysis, weight, fetal heart tones, fundal height, edema, etc.) The only things that weren't done that a doctor would've done were diagnostic tests - routine ultrasound, gluclose tolerance test, group b strep test, etc. I would have had every legal right to refuse those in a doctor's office anyway. That's the UP part. That's everything I'd argue.

As for the birth itself - it's not illegal. (I'm pretty sure that is true in all states, right?) Argue that you had someone (DH?) do intermittent FHT checks. Argue that you could've done anything a homebirth midwife would've done.

I hope everything is okay and you're not having trouble with social services!

Erica, wife to Jason (March 2002) . Mama to Ava (June 2003) , Jason Jr. [AKA JJ] (August 2004) , Lila (January 2009) , Maura (October 2010) , and a new person in December 2012!
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#3 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 11:54 AM
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First, i would reiterate that it is not illegal, and in fact specifically protected under freedom of religion/philosophy constructs. This might include a brief statement about my philosophy regarding birth/body-theology.

Second, i would briefly describe my prenatal care and plans for birth, including the caveat that i would not hesitate to seek help should it be necessary. I might also include/name those individuals who are my support system--such as a family doctor or midwife that you know or which hospital you would go to.

If we had a lot of time to converse, i would likely consider a family lawyer to be present when we spoke at length. Or, i might ask to record the conversation and at the very least, take copious notes.

Also, that conversation would probably include things like the difference between those avoiding certain practices as opposed to choosing them form an informed, educated perspective.
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#4 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 11:56 AM
 
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I don't know that I would. I might actually be dishonest in an attempt to get out of it. I feel that my birthing process is extremely private and I am unwilling to put it out there for public, authoritarian scrutiny.

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#5 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
I don't know that I would. I might actually be dishonest in an attempt to get out of it. I feel that my birthing process is extremely private and I am unwilling to put it out there for public, authoritarian scrutiny.
Well, ITA, but sometimes you have to. When I have to choose between saying I had no prenatal care followed by an accidental UC, or fully explaining my reasons and showing I fully understand my rights, I choose the last. When the scrutiny is already there, I want to do everything that I can to show that I am a loving, caring, informed person, and not some lunatic. And in this case more to the point, that my son IS my son.

Thanks for your input, mamas!

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#6 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
If we had a lot of time to converse, i would likely consider a family lawyer to be present when we spoke at length. Or, i might ask to record the conversation and at the very least, take copious notes.
I am working on the lawyer, but I want one who is fully onboard. Although I think any lawyer would be better than none, WDYT?

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#7 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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I think what pps said is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post
And in this case more to the point, that my son IS my son.
Can you prove that genetically with a blood test?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post
I am working on the lawyer, but I want one who is fully onboard. Although I think any lawyer would be better than none, WDYT?
I would personally think that if you are paying the lawyer, and they are a remotely good lawyer, they will be on board. That's their job - to be on board even if they don't personally agree.
Good luck mama!!!

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#8 of 25 Old 04-29-2009, 03:49 PM
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any good family lawyer will work well for you. these are definitely family law issues, so start there.

ultimately, the lawyer doesn't have to agree with you to be a good lawyer for you. you want one who is tenacious, who likes the process of finding ways to defend their clients. you also want one who likes or loves being a lawyer.
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#9 of 25 Old 04-30-2009, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm supposed to be meeting a lawyer this morning, and one with a good reputation. I'm actually dealing with an embassy so, two jurisdictions. Thoughts are still welcome

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#10 of 25 Old 04-30-2009, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Can you prove that genetically with a blood test?
Frankly, I only know as much as one can from watching CSI and the like, and I think a simple blood test won't prove that two people are mother and son, though a blood test will point in that direction. If it helps, I am happy to do a simple blood test. I also have part of my son's placenta in the freezer, though it just looks like meat now.

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#11 of 25 Old 04-30-2009, 10:39 AM
 
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Kaya, I'm not sure exactly what you're dealing with here, but would it help you to formalize your "prenatal care" into an offical looking document? Here's some links from the UC sticky:

Link One. Link Two. Link Three

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#12 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 04:27 AM
 
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I wouldn't try to.

Zoebird, in the UK it is illegal for anyone else to assist at a UC and there have been prosecutions. MittensKittens is in the EU too, and I honestly don't know about her country.

Helen mum to five and mistress of mess and mayhem, making merry and mischief til the sun goes down.
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#13 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 05:30 AM
 
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If i was you i'd email Veronika from the Mother magazine and ask her for some stats and information. She has just written a book on freebirth and is very vocal on her birthing opinions in the UK.

Mummy to T 06/04, L 08/06, R 08/09
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#14 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 09:25 AM
 
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I'm sorry you are dealing with this dearest....GL, I have no advice...but GL.

Me and DH ...lovin' DD dust.gif(6/08) and DS kid.gif(11/09) Plus NEW BABY!! DD baby.gif (UC-5/12) We heartbeat.gif Water Birth/Homebirth/No Vax or Circ/BF/BW/Country Livin'! chicken3.gif

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#15 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 09:33 AM
 
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You need a lawyer to defend your rights!
Blood tests do prove DNA maternity and paternity, go get them on your own.

Accidental births happen all the time to very responsible sane women! In NYC we just had a women give birth on a subway station. It happens.
Prenatal care is not a law.
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#16 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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I did have to defend my choice to UC and it was very scary and frustrating. What I took away from the whole experience is that as unfair as it seems the authorities are only doing their jobs. My advice is to be respectful and to show them that you are a fit mother. I would explain that UC, although not a mainstream choice, is a choice that tens of thousands of families have chosen worldwide. I would talk about the research you did and the preparations you made. I would also emphasize that you were willing to seek medical care for anything out of the ordinary during the birth. Also, that you would seek medical care for your son now if needed. If you don't have a doctor for you son maybe consider getting one. Have they asked for references? If they haven't maybe have close friends who understand your birth and mothering philosophy write up references for you. Have them write how long they have known you and if they have had any concerns about your parenting style. Have them explain that you are responsible law abiding citizen. I am sorry that you are going through this.

Cynthia--Among other things, I am a wife and mother to two boys.
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#17 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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:

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#18 of 25 Old 05-01-2009, 02:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post
Well, ITA, but sometimes you have to. When I have to choose between saying I had no prenatal care followed by an accidental UC, or fully explaining my reasons and showing I fully understand my rights, I choose the last. When the scrutiny is already there, I want to do everything that I can to show that I am a loving, caring, informed person, and not some lunatic. And in this case more to the point, that my son IS my son.

Thanks for your input, mamas!
I took precautions so that I would not have to defend an UC in an emergency or potential prosecution.

This is just my opinion, but I believe birthing choices to be right up there with religious freedom and vaccine choice. I don't have to and I don't want to prove anything or defend anything. And judging by the way people are treated when they do open up about it, I have every motivation to avoid any scrutiny whatsoever.

When we transferred to the hospital, I had a doctor's name, a ped's name, a hospital name, address and phone number. I also had a story. I repeated the same when I back for sutures.

I understand not everyone will agree with me. I think there have been threads about dishonesty and childbirth choices. YMMV

Mama to expecting Babe 2
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#19 of 25 Old 05-02-2009, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for your thoughts, and those links might be useful! I have seen a lawyer in the meantime, and he is competent and I feel more than comfortable with my choice. I do believe that everything will turn out OK. But, I hope that expat mamas in other countries will take into account the possibility that authorities will consider the child you give birth to may, in fact, not be your child, but an illegally adopted child. I have prenatal records of some sorts, pictures of my pregnant self, pictures taken immediately PP, and a placenta. I have nursed in front of govt officials. Those things would convince me that my child is my child. Actually, my guess is that the problems I am dealing with are not serious, however, I am definitely VERY SCARED over the possibility that they are. Thanks for your support. I would be more clear about the whole thing, but this is still the internet which anyone can read. Also, I have considered giving them links to MDC to show them I was preparing to give birth, but I don't want to compromise MDC in any way. What do you think?

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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#20 of 25 Old 05-02-2009, 09:41 AM
 
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Oliva,
My heart goes out to you!!
For your own your own piece of mind print out the threads you participated in prenatally and keep for your records to show the lawyer.

If they don't have DNA testing in the country you're located can you send it to a lab in the USA and get it done on your own?

Best of luck to you.
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#21 of 25 Old 05-02-2009, 10:08 AM
 
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and I can't imagine it hurting MDC. It IS a public forum...

Angela lactivist.gif, married for 14 1/2 years to DHtwins.gif, mother to DD 8-5-97homeschool.gif, DS 8-5-09 uc.jpgbabyf.gif, and SURPRISE!!! pos.gif due 2-17-12

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#22 of 25 Old 05-02-2009, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post
Thank you for your thoughts, and those links might be useful! I have seen a lawyer in the meantime, and he is competent and I feel more than comfortable with my choice. I do believe that everything will turn out OK. But, I hope that expat mamas in other countries will take into account the possibility that authorities will consider the child you give birth to may, in fact, not be your child, but an illegally adopted child. I have prenatal records of some sorts, pictures of my pregnant self, pictures taken immediately PP, and a placenta. I have nursed in front of govt officials. Those things would convince me that my child is my child. Actually, my guess is that the problems I am dealing with are not serious, however, I am definitely VERY SCARED over the possibility that they are. Thanks for your support. I would be more clear about the whole thing, but this is still the internet which anyone can read. Also, I have considered giving them links to MDC to show them I was preparing to give birth, but I don't want to compromise MDC in any way. What do you think?
Honestly it should be an open and shut case. You can easily prove you're the mother with simple blood tests, I think they can even do it with a swab from your cheek. UC is not illegal (not sure about where you are though), so while they may be on you for awhile over it, there's really nothing they can do. The lawyer should work to protect you.

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#23 of 25 Old 05-02-2009, 02:06 PM
 
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Yeah, it can be proven nearly 100% if you are the mother through mitochondrial dna, but a simple dna comparison would show that you are the parent. Even better if you, dad and baby are all compared.
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#24 of 25 Old 05-04-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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here is one place that offers DNA testing for "legal" purposes

http://shop.alltestsonline.com/mm5/m...gory_Code=DNAL
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#25 of 25 Old 05-18-2009, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1086284

I'm Olivia. I blog about physiological childbirth, homebirth, and unassisted homebirth!
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