My Mother disowned me! - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 11:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post
Well. personally I don't think it is fair for the OP's mom to react in such a way, but we do agree that every action has consequences.

Just curious - when a couple keeps their pregnancy to themselves for some time, perhaps because they have a history of loss, do you also consider that to be lying, and do you think they should really be sharing this information straight away?
I think that reasons behind things have alot to o with how people react.

I also think that there is a huge difference between close friends/family an other levels of acquaintances.

An everything is a trade off. The OP might still think it was worth it to keep her birth plans a secret. Maybe, for her family dynamic she still comes out ahead. But it shouldn't be a surprise that her mother is hurt.

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you are not responsible for other people's feelings.
While this is true, that doesn't mean other people's feelings should come as a surprise in most situations. And maybe that's what bugs be about this thread. Everyone seems to be dismissing the fact that the OP's mom has a legitimate reason to be hurt by what the OP did.

The reasons behind what the OP did might also be reasonable. But not what the OP thinks of her mother has been thrown in her mother's face and it's only natural that there be a reaction of some sort.
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#62 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 12:09 PM
 
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What bothers me in this thread is the notion that birth is supposed to be open and public and that not talking about it means that you are keeping something away from someone else. I don't get the logic at all...

I don't understand why birth is anyone else's business besides the two parents. Why does it have to be such a public event if the parents don't want it to be? Why is it strange to not tell people, even family, about how and where you will give birth?

Though the mom has every right to feel upset, she needs to own her feelings because the OP did nothing wrong... it was her birth, her choice and had nothing to do with the mom.

When we were charting, we didn't tell our parents when we are going to have sex to try to conceive a child...even though it might be a potential grandchild, it is not their business, and neither is the birth.

OP, I am glad that your UC was life changing for your DH and I hope that it was the same for you. I hope your mom comes around.

 
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#63 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 12:33 PM
 
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I don't understand why birth is anyone else's business besides the two parents. Why does it have to be such a public event if the parents don't want it to be? Why is it strange to not tell people, even family, about how and where you will give birth?
Do you have no close relationships?
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#64 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 12:57 PM
 
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Do you have no close relationships?
Of course I do! what does that change? are you saying that everyone that you are close to knows everything about you? I also know and accept that there are things that they believe to be private that they don't share about also.

If the parents want to share every aspect of pregnancy and birth with everyone then that is up to them. However, if they want to remain quiet about it, then that is up to them also.

 
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#65 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 01:00 PM
 
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What I'm saying is that sometimes it comes as a shock an a disappointment when you realize that someone else doesn't think of your relationship as being as close as you do.

It sounds like the OP shared details about her previous birth plans with other pregnancies.

So her mother was taken by surprise that this birth was so different. She thought they were closer than that. I don't think it's an unreasonable reaction for her to assume that the OP pulled away from her and to react by also pulling away.
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#66 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 01:33 PM
 
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It really doesn't matter what the fallout from telling them would be, it would be better to be open about things and deal with it before the birth of the baby.
Don't you mean that it wouldn't matter to you what the fallout would be?

I think the OP knows her family better than you do.

Having had my second at home, I rather wish I hadn't been as up-front about our plans for homebirth.

I think there's always this element of fear when you're going against "the grain" so radically. And it's no fun having to "reassure" others who feel this urge to weight you down with THEIR worries, especially as the big day draws nearer and there are moments when it takes all your energy to keep YOURSELF centered.

Maybe it wouldn't matter to you -- it seems reasonable that it matters to some of us.

I think the OP was very wise to just keep quiet about it until it was a feat accompli.

While I've already shared that I'd feel some hurt if one of my daughters kept this from me, I'd see my hurt feelins as an indication that I need to examine myself. Maybe I gave my child good reason for thinking her pregnancy and birth would be less-stressful if she left me "out of the loop."

Or maybe, as Payxe has shared, this is just something that she and her husband wanted to keep between the 2 of them.

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#67 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 01:58 PM
 
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What I'm saying is that sometimes it comes as a shock an a disappointment when you realize that someone else doesn't think of your relationship as being as close as you do.

It sounds like the OP shared details about her previous birth plans with other pregnancies.

So her mother was taken by surprise that this birth was so different. She thought they were closer than that. I don't think it's an unreasonable reaction for her to assume that the OP pulled away from her and to react by also pulling away.
I see what you are saying, thank you for making you opinion clearer, and I agree that it could be seen in that way.

However, we don't know the nature of the relationship....

IMO it sounds like in the past the mom asked questions about the birth and this time she didn't... by stating that the mom was of medical mindset, then it can be assumed that the OP was saving herself from a lot of negative comments, pressure and stress by just not talking about her choices. It may not be at all that the relationship had changed, or that the OP was pulling out of the relationship but that she had evolved since the last pregnancies and was wanting to keep the peace because opinions would differ too much.

It could be that the mom is very controlling and because she was surprised by the situation she felt she had lost control and is acting on that feeling. (the dress story is a perfect example of that)

Anyway, we don't know all the details... but whatever they were, birth is something very personal to many, especially UCers, and sometimes privacy is exactly what people need and I think that it is completely justifiable to keep any birth plans as private or not as the person giving birth needs it to be.

 
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#68 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 04:32 PM
 
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So am I lying by omission if I let people assume we had sex in the missionary position to conceive when in fact I was on top? Oh man, I am such a liar.

Since when are peoples private decisions public knowledge? Just because this country has tried to make birth a public event by making women leave their homes and give birth in front of a bunch of strangers doesn't make that right.

I did happen to tell my family because I want my mom to be at my UC with me, I really wanted someone other than DH to be there just as an extra set of hands just in case (refilling the tub, getting towels, making up food, etc). If I had not though there is NO way my mother would have reacted like this. I think it is foolhardy to suggest it is better to tell people ahead of time because our minds are so so susceptible to fears-especially when pregnant and telling non-supportive people can seriously mess with your mind and cause your birth to go awry. I have been very open with my plans and because of this I have had to do a lot of fear-clearing sessions (hypnobabies). I choose this though because I like to share how birth can be natural and normal with people.

I also had to laugh at the comment that the mother was hurt because she wanted to be seen as an equal partner in her daughters life...she isn't. My DH is my partner in life, no one else. The only person who can overrule our decisions about our life is God.
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#69 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 04:40 PM
 
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I'm really not sure what's so controvertial about saying that people will react to what you do.

If you care about having a continuing good relationship with people, then it's generally a good idea to think about those specific people's reactions before things happen.
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#70 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 07:46 PM
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i think that people--including the OP--did think about her mother's reactions, but didn't expect the reaction to be so extreme.

i think that most of us realize that choosing to UC is controversial, and that choosing to keep it quiet until after the fact is often what is best, even though that may cause upset. for many of us, upset later is easier to deal with than constant hen-pecking while pregnant.

but what i think most of us do not expect is for the person to "disown" us. sure, they might be upset or angry for a variety of reasons (from feeling "lied to" or having been lied to, to thinking the whole thing was foolish, etc) and express that in a variety of ways--most of which are not at all as extreme as this reaction.

i don't think anyone says that her mother can't or shouldn't have *a* reaction, or even a negative one. but to "disown" her own daughter for keeping something private that both is private and she wished to keep private, and also something that is controversial (we do know that it is, particularly to individuals in medical fields) seems extreme to us.

i just don't think the action warrants this strong of a reaction. there is "pulling away" and "distancing" but this is "disowning" and that's a very dramatic, and imo, extreme reaction to her daughter's actions.
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#71 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 11:23 PM
 
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I don't understand why birth is anyone else's business besides the two parents. Why does it have to be such a public event if the parents don't want it to be? Why is it strange to not tell people, even family, about how and where you will give birth?
Did you tell people that you were pregnant? Did you have a baby shower? Did you tell them when you were due? Did you talk about the sex of the baby, if you knew at the time?

What I'm getting at is: in order to not make birth a "public event" you have to also refrain from talking about being pregnant, since one naturally follows the other. You can't talk about one piece of the puzzle without including all the rest, or assume the rest won't be in other people's awareness.
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#72 of 90 Old 09-28-2009, 11:47 PM
 
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Did you tell people that you were pregnant? Did you have a baby shower? Did you tell them when you were due? Did you talk about the sex of the baby, if you knew at the time?

What I'm getting at is: in order to not make birth a "public event" you have to also refrain from talking about being pregnant, since one naturally follows the other. You can't talk about one piece of the puzzle without including all the rest, or assume the rest won't be in other people's awareness.

No you don't... just like you can say that you are trying for a baby without telling all the details of how and when or talking about your CM or cervix position... they are all very important pieces of the puzzle but not all up for discussion if the people in question don't want it to be...

and some parents don't share the sex of the baby even if they know, and some don't tell about what tests they are and are not having, and some people don't talk about the type of birth they are planning... it is all up to the parents to decide what how much or how little as they want to reveal.

 
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#73 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 10:12 AM
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it's true. when sharing anything private, it is entirely up to the individual to determine what they feel comfortable sharing and what they do not feel comfortable sharing.

i kept ttcing private; kept the pregnancy private until the 12th week (publically, i told family before); i kept the birth plans mostly quiet, though i would tell people when/if i felt comfortable doing so. there were people we purposefully did not tell (certain relatives, friends), and so on.

iit is perfectly normal and acceptable to decide whom you are going to tell what, when, and how. just because you tell one part doesn't mean you have to tell others. jut because you tell one person, doesn't require that you tell another.
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#74 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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just because you tell one part doesn't mean you have to tell others. jut because you tell one person, doesn't require that you tell another.
I think you and the PP misunderstood what I was trying to get at: when you give out one piece of puzzle, other pieces are typically assumed as well. You can debate this all you want with "I don't discuss my cervical mucus, sexual position, etc. so why do I need to divulge information about my birth?" This is impractical in our society, though, which makes this argument pointless. Of course nobody talks about such intimate details, but people DO talk about being pregnant, they often DO talk about details of the pregnancy such as the sex of baby, baby showers, care providers and where they're planning on giving birth. If you mention one aspect (like being pregnant) but leave out other aspects that are generally discussed (like the sex of the baby or where and with whom you are giving birth) then you would have to be completely ignorant to the way society works if you assume they're not interested, concerned or at least have it in their conscious awareness. Everyone reacts differently to such things: some family members don't care how much or how little you tell them about the subject, others feel very offended if you give them one piece of the puzzle and leave another big piece of the puzzle (like the birth) out of the picture entirely. ESPECIALLY if the pregnant woman allowed the people in her family to assume something that was false. We all know what our family can and cannot handle to some degree, at least.
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#75 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 01:04 PM
 
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I think you and the PP misunderstood what I was trying to get at: when you give out one piece of puzzle, other pieces are typically assumed as well. You can debate this all you want with "I don't discuss my cervical mucus, sexual position, etc. so why do I need to divulge information about my birth?" This is impractical in our society, though, which makes this argument pointless. Of course nobody talks about such intimate details, but people DO talk about being pregnant, they often DO talk about details of the pregnancy such as the sex of baby, baby showers, care providers and where they're planning on giving birth. If you mention one aspect (like being pregnant) but leave out other aspects that are generally discussed (like the sex of the baby or where and with whom you are giving birth) then you would have to be completely ignorant to the way society works if you assume they're not interested, concerned or at least have it in their conscious awareness. Everyone reacts differently to such things: some family members don't care how much or how little you tell them about the subject, others feel very offended if you give them one piece of the puzzle and leave another big piece of the puzzle (like the birth) out of the picture entirely. ESPECIALLY if the pregnant woman allowed the people in her family to assume something that was false. We all know what our family can and cannot handle to some degree, at least.
Thank you.
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#76 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 02:36 PM
 
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I guess we won't get anywhere with this, we are definitely coming from different places.

Did you tell everyone about your UC (assuming that you did UC or are planning to since you are on the UC board) or all aspects of your pregnancy?

Did I talk about my UC? with some people I did, with others I didn't. If I didn't feel like debating, or didn't have time to answer all the questions that I knew would come up then you can bet I didn't say anything... we learned early on that some people just are better off not knowing and assuming... we told some friends when I was about 6 months into our pregnancy with #3 and they haven't talked to us since because of our choices because they couldn't understand our reasons... maybe it would have been better to let them assume and then we would have had a few more months of friendship... most likely we are better off without them as friends.

Was it my fault that my grandmother assumed that would would have an U/S at 20 weeks and find out the sex because we had done so in the past and was mad when we didn't?

Was it my fault that my mom didn't speak to me for a while because she had assumed that I would be giving my first a bottle so that she could take him for a night or two when he was a few weeks old because all of her friends had done the same with their grandchildren, and because she couldn't it was because I didn't "trust her".

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We all know what our family can and cannot handle to some degree, at least.
Yes and no, I don't believe that we always know how people will react, but we do make our best educated guess on how they have reacted in the past. In the case of the OP, how I read it was that her decision was to keep her mom in the dark because she most likely knew how her mother would react to knowing and didn't want to deal with that in pregnancy and didn't expect the reaction to be worse when she did tell... ( If she wasn't expecting such a harsh reaction then, then how can we be sure that the mom would have done the same thing if she would have told her before)

It is not my responsibility for what people assume, so I guess in that way I am completely "ignorant to the way society works"... There are just some things that I would rather not bring up for whatever the reason because then people assume that it is automatically up for discussion... especially when it comes to marginal choices that not everyone accepts because they don't know different or don't understand the reasons and think that they should have a say in someone else's choices and decisions.

 
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#77 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 04:23 PM
 
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Did you tell everyone about your UC (assuming that you did UC or are planning to since you are on the UC board) or all aspects of your pregnancy?
I told those who were interested and they accepted it. If they hadn't accepted it then I would have communicated better about my decision...if they still didn't understand then I would make it clear that I'd like to agree to disagree. I knew that hiding it or trying to brush off the conversation would have made things worse in the long run for they would have felt left out or that I had lied to them. Those who weren't interested were not people I was close to so I didn't feel it necessary to share about it.

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Was it my fault that my grandmother assumed that would would have an U/S at 20 weeks and find out the sex because we had done so in the past and was mad when we didn't?
I'm not trying to place blame. I'm only trying to show that everyone involved has at least partial responsibility when it comes to sharing information and owning how they feel about the information. If you want to look at it as someone's "fault" then go ahead, but I like to see things in the positive sense...for this, that would be "responsibility". If you didn't want your grandmother to assume that you would have the u/s then you had the responsibility at the time to discuss your reasons why not. If you don't care how she feels then this doesn't matter. Your grandmother had the right to assume and thus be disappointed or angry when that assumption didn't match reality...you had the right to not care how she felt or to take some responsibility for the assumption and let her know what's up.

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Was it my fault that my mom didn't speak to me for a while because she had assumed that I would be giving my first a bottle so that she could take him for a night or two when he was a few weeks old because all of her friends had done the same with their grandchildren, and because she couldn't it was because I didn't "trust her".
Again, the issue is about taking responsibility and communicating when there is a need for it. If you want your mother to understand where you're coming from then there is a need for communication in that regard. If you don't want to, then don't worry about it. You don't have to feel bad or guilty or whatever if your mom gets angry, but to ignore the fact that you did not take on the responsibility of helping her understand as clearly as possible your reasoning for not allowing her to help out is what I have an issue with. You can't blame her for how she feels anymore than you can blame yourself for not wanting to communicate more effectively. If after communicating as well as you could she is still angry then you've done as much as you could and there's no reason to feel bad about that.



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In the case of the OP, how I read it was that her decision was to keep her mom in the dark because she most likely knew how her mother would react to knowing and didn't want to deal with that in pregnancy and didn't expect the reaction to be worse when she did tell... ( If she wasn't expecting such a harsh reaction then, then how can we be sure that the mom would have done the same thing if she would have told her before).
You're assuming the reason why her mother was angry was because of the OP's choice of birth itself. I don't necessarily see that as the case. It sounds to me like she simply didn't want to be left out or treated like someone her daughter can't trust. In my experience, the blow that comes from intense, out-of-the-norm decisions is typically much softer when it's done upfront rather than after the fact.

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It is not my responsibility for what people assume, so I guess in that way I am completely "ignorant to the way society works"... There are just some things that I would rather not bring up for whatever the reason because then people assume that it is automatically up for discussion... especially when it comes to marginal choices that not everyone accepts because they don't know different or don't understand the reasons and think that they should have a say in someone else's choices and decisions.
You can't take responsibility for how someone reacts, but you CAN take responsibility for the way you treat the subject at hand. Just because someone won't accept something or tries to talk you out of it doesn't give you the excuse to keep it from them. It sounds like you're trying to blame them for feeling how they feel and not seeing how you play a role in their reaction. We all have a right to our opinions and feelings, don't we? If you want respect for how you live your life then it's only fair to respect the way others live their lives as well. We don't have to share everything about our lives, but if we want to live in harmony with others and be respectful then it's only fair to create solid boundaries and be open where it's applicable.
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#78 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 05:49 PM
 
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I'm not trying to place blame. I'm only trying to show that everyone involved has at least partial responsibility when it comes to sharing information and owning how they feel about the information. If you want to look at it as someone's "fault" then go ahead, but I like to see things in the positive sense...for this, that would be "responsibility". If you didn't want your grandmother to assume that you would have the u/s then you had the responsibility at the time to discuss your reasons why not. If you don't care how she feels then this doesn't matter. Your grandmother had the right to assume and thus be disappointed or angry when that assumption didn't match reality...you had the right to not care how she felt or to take some responsibility for the assumption and let her know what's up.
I didn't feel I was at fault at all, but I reacting to what I was reading in your previous posts in saying that if you don't share something then you are responsible for someone else's assumptions... If it was brought up before hand and was directly asked then I wouldn't have lied, but it wasn't mentioned... it was just brought up around the time that she assumed it would have been done and was upset that I wasn't going to do what she thought I would do... Of course she has a right to feel the way she feels, but why would I need to take responsibility for her feelings and assumptions when it is our decision and has nothing do with her and she hadn't even asked before?

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Again, the issue is about taking responsibility and communicating when there is a need for it. If you want your mother to understand where you're coming from then there is a need for communication in that regard. If you don't want to, then don't worry about it. You don't have to feel bad or guilty or whatever if your mom gets angry, but to ignore the fact that you did not take on the responsibility of helping her understand as clearly as possible your reasoning for not allowing her to help out is what I have an issue with. You can't blame her for how she feels anymore than you can blame yourself for not wanting to communicate more effectively. If after communicating as well as you could she is still angry then you've done as much as you could and there's no reason to feel bad about that.
Again, my issue is why would I have to take responsibility for someone's assumptions? I don't feel guilty or bad at all! I didn't do anything wrong. Sometimes there is no way to communicate or someone is unwilling to communicate when an assumption has been made and they then feel blindsided when they find out things are not the way they thought.

Though I can see your point of view, I don't agree with it.

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You're assuming the reason why her mother was angry was because of the OP's choice of birth itself. I don't necessarily see that as the case. It sounds to me like she simply didn't want to be left out or treated like someone her daughter can't trust. In my experience, the blow that comes from intense, out-of-the-norm decisions is typically much softer when it's done upfront rather than after the fact.
Or it could be the complete opposite and be about the birth itself... we have no clue, if looking at it through the eyes of dealing with certain types of people then it could be one scenario as much as the other... another reason that we might not be able to agree on this subject.

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You can't take responsibility for how someone reacts, but you CAN take responsibility for the way you treat the subject at hand. Just because someone won't accept something or tries to talk you out of it doesn't give you the excuse to keep it from them. It sounds like you're trying to blame them for feeling how they feel and not seeing how you play a role in their reaction. We all have a right to our opinions and feelings, don't we? If you want respect for how you live your life then it's only fair to respect the way others live their lives as well. We don't have to share everything about our lives, but if we want to live in harmony with others and be respectful then it's only fair to create solid boundaries and be open where it's applicable.
I don't blame people for feeling the way they feel and I don't expect anyone to take responsibility for the way I feel. I truly believe in owning our feelings and communicating our feelings and needs clearly.

I chose a UC to have the safest and least stressful pregnancy and birth possible, if that had meant keeping it from certain people that I knew would cause me a lot of stress then I would have done so without hesitation. It has nothing to do with their lives or respecting how they live or being an excuse, it has to do with respecting myself and what I need and what is best for me and the baby I am carrying and has nothing to do with them.

I have a feeling our boundaries are also very different.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because I don't think we will be going anywhere with this.

 
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#79 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 06:42 PM
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first,while i agree that in general, people speak about their various plans--at least in general terms--i don't think it's socially required to do so. it is appropriate for someone to say "i'd like to keep that private." or "i consider that a private matter."

and this works for a number of things in life. here's another example.

since we returned from NZ two years ago, we've wanted to move back. we've told people how much we love it, how we want to go back, how we would love to live in Wellington. but, we never made any decisive action that direction.

then, we decided to move to NZ. it was November 2008. when we found the methodology (buying a business) it was March 2009. we went to NZ in May-June. We returned from NZ ready to buy the business, and then told families in late June. My husband told his boss in late august. i told my coworker (who runs the collective where i work) just last week.

we're going to make it public when we have an estimate of when we're going to leave (from NZ immigration service).

I'm sure that some people will feel upset that we didn't tell them sooner. My mother and MIL both asked when we first knew we were going. the answer is NOV 2008. so we "lied" to them or "kept a secret" from them for months.

par tof the reason for that was to make sure that we were going, to make a way for us to go. we didn't want them to be upset in case our plans had to be stopped or we just weren't able to make a go of it.

they were hurt that we didn't tell them sooner, and they are hrut that we are moving (doing something that they don't want), and they tease us by saying to hawk "how often will you see your mommy and daddy when they leave?" (and we have now asked them to stop doing this, because of course he is going with us, and i know he understands what they are saying and looks at us like he's going to cry).

i would say that to many people, this sort of information--when you put forth a par tof it, you have to tell all of it, but we don't. people say "how are you making it possible?" we say "we're buying a business!" they might ask what kind, we'll ltell them that. but we won't tell them how much we paid or what the costs are or what have you. we might talk about the process such as "darn it, we have to get NEW x-rays because those were inconclusive. he sneezed!"

but honestly, bwe are keeping it private for a reason. people are on a need-to-know basis. and a lot of people don't need to know yet.

it is what it is. if they're hurt, then that's ok. we can talk about it--or not. but honestly, that's that. i'm perfectly free to keep things private if it is what is best for me.
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#80 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 08:12 PM
 
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I didn't feel I was at fault at all, but I reacting to what I was reading in your previous posts in saying that if you don't share something then you are responsible for someone else's assumptions... If it was brought up before hand and was directly asked then I wouldn't have lied, but it wasn't mentioned... it was just brought up around the time that she assumed it would have been done and was upset that I wasn't going to do what she thought I would do... Of course she has a right to feel the way she feels, but why would I need to take responsibility for her feelings and assumptions when it is our decision and has nothing do with her and she hadn't even asked before?
Sometimes we only know what a person is going to assume and react to after the fact...I should have mentioned that before. We can't always predict a person's response...it's unreasonable to expect this of anyone. If she's angry after the fact and you had no idea she was going to react this way then the only thing you can do is explain how you feel, if you want to. I'm the type of person that doesn't like anyone to have hurt feelings, no matter who's "fault" it is, so I try to do what I can to help others see my point of view if it will help them understand things better.

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Again, my issue is why would I have to take responsibility for someone's assumptions? I don't feel guilty or bad at all! I didn't do anything wrong. Sometimes there is no way to communicate or someone is unwilling to communicate when an assumption has been made and they then feel blindsided when they find out things are not the way they thought.
If you truly don't feel guilty then why are you going back and forth with me right now? Why does this subject interest you at all if you have it all figured out?


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I don't blame people for feeling the way they feel and I don't expect anyone to take responsibility for the way I feel. I truly believe in owning our feelings and communicating our feelings and needs clearly.
It doesn't sound like you truly want to communicate your feelings and needs clearly...at least not when it came to the examples you gave. It sounds like you feel offended by other people's reactions and annoyed with the fact that you have to deal with it. What's so difficult about communicating how you feel to the person who's hurt, establishing boundaries when needed and letting the situation go?

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I chose a UC to have the safest and least stressful pregnancy and birth possible, if that had meant keeping it from certain people that I knew would cause me a lot of stress then I would have done so without hesitation. It has nothing to do with their lives or respecting how they live or being an excuse, it has to do with respecting myself and what I need and what is best for me and the baby I am carrying and has nothing to do with them.
Why don't you just tell them this? Are you afraid they're going to stalk you or something? In my eyes, if you were to come to me and say the last sentence of this quote then it would be very easy for me to respect it/leave you be.
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#81 of 90 Old 09-29-2009, 09:53 PM
 
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If you truly don't feel guilty then why are you going back and forth with me right now? Why does this subject interest you at all if you have it all figured out?
Sorry I thought it was a discussion/ debate/ difference of opinions that had led to this... I guess I was mistaken.

My point was...

I don't think the OP did anything wrong by not telling her mom. If she felt that she wanted it to remain private that was up to her.
I don't think that she lied about her birth just because the subject didn't come up and things were assumed. If the mom wanted to really know, she could have asked.
I also don't think that everything has to be out in the open and needs to be discussed even if it is just to say it is not up for discussion. There are just some things that some people would rather remain private, even if it goes against the societal norm.
And finally, I don't think that the OP should feel any responsibility in her mothers reaction for making assumptions.

I'm bowing out now

 
~paxye~
Mama to Xavier (July 02) , Colin (Sept 04), Khéna(Nov 06) & Wilhelmina (Jan 10)
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#82 of 90 Old 09-30-2009, 06:14 AM
 
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Why don't you just tell them this? Are you afraid they're going to stalk you or something? In my eyes, if you were to come to me and say the last sentence of this quote then it would be very easy for me to respect it/leave you be.
That is a really nice thought that people will just be all nice and loving once you tell them things and respect you. Unfortunately that isn't the reality for a lot of us. And for us that have family that we have to worry about calling 911 or what have you the first need is to protect ourselves and our baby. Having people harass you that you are putting your own life and baby's life in danger is harmful to a pregnant women - no matter if those thoughts and words are spoken out of love.

Happily Married to my : 11 yrs- Mama to wild-eyed monkey boy 7-04, fiery little girl 4-07, and the happy smiley baby that sleeps 11-09!
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#83 of 90 Old 09-30-2009, 08:14 AM
 
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Yeah, I honestly found that statement to be a bit nieve.

I have family that could, and have, called CPS, because of my HBing, not even mentioning UCing. So, yeah. I guess I am "worried about them stalking me or something". But, even if they did nothing beyond threatening, or even just harrassing, why should I have to put myself though that? It is not healthy for my mental state, and quite honestly can (and many times will) have a huge impact on labor.

That is why I believe omitting by circumstance, and sometimes even blatently misleading or lying, is the best thing for someone UCing. Most people, because of our society, just can not understand our desire or need to birth alone, or worse, think they are being of some sort of "help" by constantly "reminding" us of the dangers that birth can entail. When we have that sort of family or friends, it is in our (and our baby's) best interest to NOT say anything (or even to mislead or lie when necessary).

And their feelings are not my responsibility in the end. If they feel "betrayed" or hurt, then that is due to their inability to see beyond themselves and how they had no part in the decision in the first place.

And just for the record. I HAVE a daughter that is old enough to give birth (19). And if she were to make some decision that I strongly disagreed with (say, an elective c/s for convenience sake), and she knew it, and she chose to keep that a secret until after the birth for fear of me trying to change her mind (which I would). Well, let's just say I would not be happy, but I would also not feel "betrayed" or even hurt. I would love her. I would cry for her. I would try and help her make a different decision next time. But, I would stand by her side. Totally and completely. So, I CAN put myself in the other shoe. And I still believe what I believe.

Any misspellings or grammatical errors in the above statement are intentional;
they are placed there for the amusement of those who like to point them out.
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#84 of 90 Old 09-30-2009, 08:47 AM
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i agee. part of this is about understanding or considering how an individual will respond.

although i decided to tell my mom, i knew what her response would be. she would be upset, make herself sick, and keep trying to convince me to get a midwife. i also knew that my ILs would fret and try to guilt trip us.

i did not expect anyone to disown me or to call CPS, but they *could* have and then i would have been like the op--"i can't believe she responded in this way!"

and it's true. a lot of people do NOT respect your wishes or needs. each of us knows what will work for us, and we do consider how others react. not everyone is willing to leave things be.
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#85 of 90 Old 09-30-2009, 09:52 AM
 
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Hmmmm....

Yes, I agree, there are disagreements in this discussion that are not going to be unified by more talk--there are various shades in between, but basically we have 2 'sides': some of us feel strongly that what birth choice we make is no one else's business until we decide it is. There are some who feel just as strongly that it would be the only honest and loving thing to do, to tell our loved ones all about our birth and parenting decisions.

On one hand, I can see the good in extending the discussion this far, because people have taken the time to fully articulate their positions--and that can be useful to anyone interested in this topic.

On the other hand....to me at some point there is simply disrespect of others at the base of continuing to try to persuade. There is a sense of wholly misplaced moral superiority and a need to be right that in my opinion is every bit as destructive of relationships (if not MORE SO) as other communication choices can be.

I will say this, though....as a person who likes to think deeply about stuff and is an avid (sometimes overbearing!) communicator/persuader: I learned when to back off (most of the time!), when to shut my mouth or still my busily typing fingers--remembering that what is 'wholly right' for me, is not necessarily right for anyone else--or at least, not in exactly the same way. Remembering that the Universe is a huge and highly diverse place, and that it takes all kinds.

Just my (as usual rambly) 2 cents
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#86 of 90 Old 09-30-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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Ms. Black--yes, there does come a point when persuasion becomes destructive. Although I see things a certain way and it would be difficult to change my point of view, I also am open to suggestion. Other people don't seem to be that open, but whatever, what can ya do. Also, have you ever thought of becoming a judge? You definitely have the knack for it

Also, in regards to my comment about establishing boundaries when it comes to having a UC, I guess I just have a hard time wrapping my head around how someone who calls themselves "family" or "friends" would go to such extremes. I guess if they really felt it was endangering the lives of the mother or child then it would make sense that they'd want to "help" by calling 911 or what have you. Still, though, I feel like if a person were to say "this is my body, this is my birth, this is my baby, back off" then not many people would cross that line. It depends on how you say it and the place you're coming from, though. If you're afraid of their reaction then you're not setting solid boundaries. The way it's interpreted is more like, "Please don't hurt me or my baby," which if a person is hell bent on making sure you're "safe" then they're not liable to respect that much. If you come from a place of firmly *knowing* that this is the safest decision for you and your baby then this is what will be communicated, and others are more likely to respect that. It seems that too often UCers are wishy washy about their birthing choice and/or allow other people in their lives to influence their decisions. I'm not saying that this is "wrong", just that when we're not firm about our choices and our reasons for doing it then we're more likely to come across resistance or outright negativity from others who don't share the same viewpoint.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, just giving my viewpoint if it helps anyone with boundaries and understanding what to do about them. Also, I'm an intuitive healer so if anyone would like help with establishing firm boundaries then I'd be happy to help. Oftentimes a person has layers of fear and resistance within them that it can be very difficult to do what they need to do in order to establish healthy boundaries, no matter how much they genuinely would like to. Or ya'll can just ignore me and just not tell people
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#87 of 90 Old 10-01-2009, 01:34 AM
 
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Hmmmm. My experience is, most families are a bit nuts if not moreso. That's my professional opinion!!!

You speak of boundary making and keeping as if it were simple--and maybe it is/has been for you, but for lots of us it's not! My family only learned to respect my boundaries after YEARS of my working at it. I come from an ordinary, run of the mill American somewhat addict/codependent strong-opinioned very attached/loving/domineering crowd. It took much repetition on my part, and really in the end just saying "I am not having this conversation with you anymore" and then refuse to discuss anything important to me again (UC, non vax/natural healing, homeschooling, etc). I had to say that to my mom several times, gradually escalating to hanging up on her, walking out on her, etc til I finally just shut that door entirely and forever. My sibs would rush to her rescue, calling me to complain about my disrespect and so forth, "but this is your MOM!" Right. But I am her daughter....doesn't that road go both ways? They actually often sided with her (so it wasn't just her beating on me about my various different choices) but they got it much sooner than mom/dad that I was doing what I was doing no matter what they said. They realized they were unable to manipulate me emotionally into doing as they did..and they let it go.

And gradually my kids got old enough without dying or being defective in any way, wow, actually being quite glowingly healthy and smart and well socialized and all-- so that they could see whatever nutsy behaviour I engaged in, apparently it was either working well or I'd been terribly lucky but in any case it was useless for them to argue against my success (even if it WAS accidental as they mostly preferred to believe for years. Now they realize I'm smart and daring and competent and so forth. Plus of course, they had no wish to drive me away--which apparently my mother could not fathom would ultimately happen if she did not give up her continuous struggle to 'correct' me (control me).

Anyway, it is late and I'm babbling, but I say again--for most of us, it is really not so simple to set boundaries with family and other close people.

In my opinion, the more you care about and are close to someone, the more you will want to know and respect their boundaries (and this will be mutual). In the opinion of The Average Bear as far as I can tell, 'closeness'--especially among fams--seems to mean allowing no boundaries whatsoever, barging in, insisting on continuous full disclosure and the right to argue and demean.

Maybe you were just really lucky with the family you got, to have gotten this far believing that it is a simple matter to give that full disclosure out of a wish to honor 'closeness', while still feeling that it is not hard to get your boundaries respected. Most of us just don't live in that world however.

As for a knack that might make me a good judge, er thanks. I think!
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#88 of 90 Old 10-01-2009, 10:17 AM
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i think there is also a lot of difference in definitions of terms and so on. and what individual personalities and relational styles are.

obviously, different people consider different things private. different people define "closeness" or how to maintain "closness" differently.

personality-wise, i'm a bit of a loner. this means, actually, that i tend to be quite on my own about things, and also that i keep a lot of things private.

as far as boundaries and privacy goes, i see it as a bunch of circles spreading out from the inner me. at the innermost circle, i am completely alone, or perhaps one might say one with the cosmos or god, but it's my innermost spiritual self. if i may be honest, no one "goes" there.

perhaps to some, this means that i am close to no one, but i don't believe that. i simply believe that there is a space for individuality in this cosmos--and that's where i have it.

outside of that is another ring, and in this ring i have my husband. that's it. my husband. outside of that ring, i have family--but there is a big distance between family and my husband insofar as what i will tell them and what i won't. there are many reaons for this. outside of that is the place of friends, then acquaintances and coworkers, and then beyond that space is the public persona.

emotional closeness is a funny thing for me. i feel emotionally close to my family, even though there is a *lot* that i keep from them due to privacy issues. another aspect of this is them *not* respecting my boundaries.

this is probably because i was once the baby, and so i was close-in, and they had power/influence. and now i've got them out side a bit, and they're not used to that. they want to be where they remember being or where they think they should be, rather than where they are.

i know that my ILs particularly struggle witht he fact that they are no longer mommy/daddy to their 37 yr old son. they realy want him to be a baby still, rather than a man. so, they are even more likely to invade boundaries.

we do defend them, too. the boundaries, that is. in the process of doing so, my family and my ILs have become very angry and offended and "hurt." but the truth is, it is right for them to be held to that boundary, and not put us into a position where they want to "parent" us. at this point, we are autonomous adults who do not need to be parented.

so in htis sort of scenario, my parents want "closeness" defined by an old definition of it, of the parent-child relationship, as opposed to the adult-parent, adult-child relationship. . .which is essentially a relationship between two adults and thus has different boundaries.

the hurt that they feel is only natural, and certainly i would never say that they "shouldn't" feel that way. of course, they have their emotions and those can be difficult.

but it's also important that we enter into a healthy balance and relationship with each other. that may mean both having and respecting certain privacies.

i probably hold more private than a lot of people, being a loner. i probably feel and or/define 'closeness' differently than others--including family who may be hurt by both my needs for privacy and how i hold them close emotionally, which may not be what they want or "enough" for them.

but at the end of the day, it has to be what it has to be. and, if i do get continually harassed, those people--no matter how close they once were--get moved out to a different circle. it's my perrogative, to make my life peaceful. sure, i may loose "closeness" with that person, but it's important to me to maintain my emotional integrity over their feelings or defnitions of closeness or who or what they 'should' be in my life.
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#89 of 90 Old 10-01-2009, 10:20 AM
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also, i would be interested to hear form the OP--has her mother come back into her life, things having cooled a bit, or is it the same as before? i'm curious to know what her experience is, and i'm curious to know how she's feeling.

and of course, to offer her my support, inso much as i can here.
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#90 of 90 Old 10-01-2009, 10:22 AM
 
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As for your long post just now--Nicely said, Zoebird. ITA

I also wonder what is going on for the OP....this has been a satisfying long discussion with apparent merit for lots of us, but the Instigator has not spoken up in awhile...
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