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#31 of 49 Old 04-04-2011, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I TOTALY HEAR YOU! my hubby is a bit concerned about the "what if" and it does make me over think sometimes. I would like to be alone this time. I had a HB with a MW last time and it was way nicer then my hossy birth with DD1. I felt like I was hovered over though. someone following me and telling me what to do overall. dont get me wrong I had a great mw and assistant /doula. we are trying to jump from the hb with a mw to UC also....
 

 

I have been doing so much research, watching videos, reading threads that I have become more confidant in myself and am very excited for this experience. My hubby is learning also (although he still questions me). I still think about the what if's from time to time but there are what if's no matter what you do in life, but that's the whole point of doing the research and gaining the knowledge to know what do when/if a situation should occur. :) I feel like I can finally have what I have always wanted in a birth, to be able to labor alone with out distractions, to be able to move around and give birth in the position I chose, to be in the comfort of my own home with my family, and to be able to enjoy my new little one without distractions.
 

 

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#32 of 49 Old 04-04-2011, 05:00 PM
 
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Shoulder distocia and few other thing have nothing to do with poverty or hygiene. And prolonged labor is elading cause of fistual in Africa...it does not happens here because women here do not routinely birth for 3-4 days.

 

Again, people should do what they feel they should do, but every single type of childbirth had risks.  It is nto an inherentely safe  eterprise for either mom or the baby. I guess I am influces by my sumer on the far, where I seen thing go naturally and badly. 

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Alenushka, things that you are describing are very rare. There are real dangers to doctor and sometimes midwife attended births too because of unnecessary interventions. Also, shoulder distocia can often be fixed by a change in mother's position. Laying on the back while pushing out a baby is one of the dumbest positions a mom could be in. I'm rather certain about the rules of this forum that whomever posts is supposed to be supportive of UC. I'm not getting that vibe from you. Though I assume the moderator(s) must have been busy lately considering some of the things that have been passing on the board that haven't been allowed in the past?


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#34 of 49 Old 04-05-2011, 12:31 PM
 
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#35 of 49 Old 04-05-2011, 01:08 PM
 
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My "crap rant" as you put it is merely my opinion as founded on my experiences and also my years of education and research on the topic-- both from mainstream and then from more alternative view points. If I seem defensive it's because my position deserves defending, because it's worthy.

 

Your point of view is not somehow better than mine just because you come here and you say so. It was far less eloquent and less thought out than what I and most moms here are saying. It was only derogatory and abrasive, IMO. You talk about how "lovely" your choices are, like you're the authority? Get over yourself.


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PS-- if you truly don't care what any of us do, and it's of no consequence to you, why are you here? why all the judgment? You're free to get out. Spend your time on something more valuable, that you DO actually care about.


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#37 of 49 Old 04-05-2011, 01:11 PM
 
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And... (lol) who doesn't have a back up plan? Who was mad at the idea of having a back up plan? I missed that part. All of us here are well prepared and in favor of having plans.


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#40 of 49 Old 04-05-2011, 03:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by numbersbyjasmin View Post

My point of view is not better than yours, and yours is not better than mine, and that was part of the point. I felt you were attacking people for feeling different than you do about UC and for potentially choosing a different birth experience.  I never said my choices were better, only for me it works, and I said that.  I came to this forum to learn about different experiences, techniques and opinions.  My issue with your arguing was that it appeared that instead of just backing up your thoughts and views you were judging other people for being so "ignorant" to accept the "man's" form of giving birth due to "the man's medical worries".  Well, I think you've pretty much got it. Not so much the judgy part, but the part of my philosophy on birth. I feel we all were going according to THE MAN'S birth. Before you immediately discount me, I would ask you-- what makes you think that's not true? Obviously something led me to believe in this, after having a much more conventional and mainstream opinion myself of birth previously. Then I "awakened". What do you expect me to say or to feel? If you were me and you felt your eyes had been opened to the truth, would you keep silent about it, and in a forum relating specifically to your topic of all places???? And that is all.  I think it is great, and amazing, that anyone would want to have an unassisted childbirth.  I was looking into it as a viable option, or at least to hear about what the back-up plans are, what concerns there are, and success stories.  My issue never was UC. I was only upset with your angry words about those ignorant people (like me) who would choose to have a midwife.  Okay, so your issue is that you took it personally. Let me for the record say that when speaking to you I would never call you ignorant. That word itself is offensive to people and my goal would not be to strike out at or hurt you. What I would say however, on my own personal belief, is that you are perhaps misled. This isn't because you are stupid. I was misled too. We all were. There is a problem with the system, it is broken, it does not serve us. This is not about me versus you. This is about the way we were all conditioned to view birth in our society, and THAT is what is ignorant and wrong.

 

Yes, I didn't add anything of use to the board, and I'm sorry.  It's just that instead of informing people of why it is so fabulous to just trust your own instincts and how little generally goes wrong and what makes UC amazing and possible, it only sounded like you should have UC because all doctors/midwives are medical nazis who don't care about you or your birth. A lot of us here are saying things that sound that way. We are not generalizing that all of them suck, but we are saying that they don't know what's best for you and that you can do better. If we sound bitter or hurt, please take into account that we are speaking from our own personal experiences. We are entitled to feel how we feel. A lot of us are healing from the past pain we've dealt with, so don't deny us our hurt feelings. And, while I do agree that medical intervention is too frequent and likely unnecessary and so on and so forth and I'm not for doctors/hospitals either, I was genuinly surprised to see midwives lumped together with the general medical population. HAHAHAHAHAHA. Ah, then you have much to discover, grasshopper. I suppose I took it a little personally, being that I adore my midwives and trust in them to let my birth experience unfold as it will. Precisely. And good for you/lucky you. (Silly me)  It is not because of medical intervention possibility that I feel more comfortable, it is because of the support system. I don't believe in needing a support system during birth. I believe that I need only rely on myself. I don't need reassurances from others and it would be my hope that you could feel comfortable without that, too. If you really think it helps or you need that, I can't stop you. Go for it. I think it brings both my husband and myself comfort in knowing that someone knows what to do and when and that everything is A-OK, or if it were not. Of course it does! It's about comfort. It's about ability.   I guess I just don't trust in myself well enough to be home without anyone assisting. That seems to be the case.  And, well, maybe that's a little sad, but I'm OK with it. Are you really? Because I don't think you are. I think that's why you are here, saying what you are saying to me right now. I think if you probe a little deeper, you'll discover that you are not feeling so at peace with this.  I think it is fascinating that there is such a large community of people who feel able and willing to give birth without anyone other than their partner or various family members present.  Amazing.  Part of me agrees with you, but this is what is so sad with our society... that this has become such a foreign concept that we really do find it amazing, and that sometimes UCers are heralded as heroes or pillars of strength and femininity. What a sad state of things, that humanity has come to this! We totally bought into the past 200 years of medicalized birth.

 

And yes, my thoughts on the subject don't matter.  Although, if you haven't noticed, I am not against UC, only I don't see it as something I would come to terms with for my own birth. One day you will. :)  Although, a lot can happen in 8 months, so who knows?  Perhaps with more information...  *nods*  It's already within you. You already know.

 

 

ALSO NOTE:  I know it came off wrong when I said "I could care less what any of you choose to do"  I didn't mean it as it sounds, I was stupidly trying to say literally it doesn't bother me that you choose UC or that I don't.  It came off completely wrong, and yes, I was just angry ranting.  Again, sorry.  I, stupidly, didn't even re-read it before sending.  My apologies, I usually don't do that-- I'm going to remove my post.  I can admit when I am wrong and was being an idiot.




It's all good. Rocky start, but I think you're okay.


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#41 of 49 Old 04-09-2011, 02:41 PM
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There's got to be a middle or common ground.

 

I'm in favor of real choices, and of facts. I had been misinformed until I realized the truth about UC. I used to believe what you believe. I'm telling you it's not the final word.

 



I used to think like you did. Keep going. 

I feel lucky to have had two wonderful UCs (and am now done having babies), but I would never try to tell anyone that it is the safest way to birth. I had healthy, full-term babies, a history of easy vaginal births, and several hospitals within 5 miles, along with years of self- and external education and experience. I believe people have the right to choose where and how to birth but I'm not going to lie to them to try and get them to make the same choices I did, nor am I interested in lying to myself. 

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I used to think like you did. Keep going. 

I feel lucky to have had two wonderful UCs (and am now done having babies), but I would never try to tell anyone that it is the safest way to birth. I had healthy, full-term babies, a history of easy vaginal births, and several hospitals within 5 miles, along with years of self- and external education and experience. I believe people have the right to choose where and how to birth but I'm not going to lie to them to try and get them to make the same choices I did, nor am I interested in lying to myself. 

Right. What are you saying, exactly? Something doesn't add up here. Something is not quite right. What exactly DO you feel about UC? Why did you even have them? Right now you seem none too encouraging at all about it. So what made you so special and everyone else, not?

 

Why wouldn't you try to tell anyone that it's the safest way to birth? What is the safest way to birth? Why did you decide to do something that you feel is actually quite risky?

 

And, you have several hospitals within 5 miles? Really? That many?

 

You won't lie to them to get them to make the same choices you did? Why, was something about your experience unfortunate, or a lie? You seem to imply that a UCer who thinks they've discovered the best way to give birth is LYING TO THEMSELVES. Please, explain.


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#43 of 49 Old 04-10-2011, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post



Right. What are you saying, exactly? Something doesn't add up here. Something is not quite right. What exactly DO you feel about UC? Why did you even have them? Right now you seem none too encouraging at all about it. So what made you so special and everyone else, not?

 

Why wouldn't you try to tell anyone that it's the safest way to birth? What is the safest way to birth? Why did you decide to do something that you feel is actually quite risky?

 

And, you have several hospitals within 5 miles? Really? That many?

 

You won't lie to them to get them to make the same choices you did? Why, was something about your experience unfortunate, or a lie? You seem to imply that a UCer who thinks they've discovered the best way to give birth is LYING TO THEMSELVES. Please, explain.


I feel that my unassisted births were lovely, special events for my family. I am glad that I was able to handle the minor complications that arose. 

I think the safest way to birth is in a hospital with a well-educated, evidence-based midwife or doctor. I think there are risks to homebirth and obviously more to unattended homebirth. However, I don't think these risks are large enough to necessarily dissuade someone from UC. I do think they are worth considering. I believe in informed choice. I think it is important to have medical help nearby and some knowledge of how to handle complications. I was certified in neonatal resuscitation between my two UCs and I really should have done it before the first one. I also chose to have some prenatal care including an ultrasound for my second UC but not my first. 

A quick google maps search tells me there are 7 hospitals within 4 miles of my house. I live in an urban area. 

I don't think anyone has discovered the best way to give birth. I think you are lying to yourself if you think UC is the safest way to give birth. I like riding motorcycles, for instance, but I'm not going to claim they're the safest vehicles out there. Sometimes risks are worth it. 

Ideally both homebirth will become safer and hospitals will become more evidence-based and family friendly so that people have better choices all around and can choose freely how they want to give birth to their baby. 

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I feel that my unassisted births were lovely, special events for my family. I am glad that I was able to handle the minor complications that arose. 

I think the safest way to birth is in a hospital with a well-educated, evidence-based midwife or doctor. I think there are risks to homebirth and obviously more to unattended homebirth. However, I don't think these risks are large enough to necessarily dissuade someone from UC. I do think they are worth considering. I believe in informed choice. I think it is important to have medical help nearby and some knowledge of how to handle complications. I was certified in neonatal resuscitation between my two UCs and I really should have done it before the first one. I also chose to have some prenatal care including an ultrasound for my second UC but not my first. 

A quick google maps search tells me there are 7 hospitals within 4 miles of my house. I live in an urban area. 

I don't think anyone has discovered the best way to give birth. I think you are lying to yourself if you think UC is the safest way to give birth. I like riding motorcycles, for instance, but I'm not going to claim they're the safest vehicles out there. Sometimes risks are worth it. 

Ideally both homebirth will become safer and hospitals will become more evidence-based and family friendly so that people have better choices all around and can choose freely how they want to give birth to their baby. 



Meepy, is that you?  ROTFLMAO.gif

What you are saying still doesn't make sense to me. You are sitting there telling me that UC is riskier than any other birth and that the safest way is to go to the hospital, SO, why did you choose to roll the dice like that? Because most of us here actually think we are doing what is best for ourselves and the baby, not taking a chance. As medically minded as you are, I'm surprised you UCed. It seems like too much of an unnecessary risk, from that perspective.

 

I don't know how you can figure I am lying to myself, when you haven't so much as walked an inch in my shoes. I'm a very lucid, intelligent person who has formed reasonable and rational conclusions based on experience AND education. My conclusions simply don't mesh well with popular culture.


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#45 of 49 Old 04-11-2011, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I love this board! Well at least the ones who have responded to my posts. I've been on other boards but have gotten the most info from Mothering. I love reading the different opinions although we may not all agree with each other. Thanks all! 

 

"Every human is an artist, a storyteller with a unique point of view. When we see ourselves as artists, we no longer feel the need to impose our story on others or to defend what we believe. We know that every artist has the right to create his own art."

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#46 of 49 Old 04-12-2011, 12:50 PM
 
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MeepyCat, I don't feel that I turned down a safety net. I spent a great deal of time educating myself as much as I could, even before the pregnancy: reading, researching, talking to other moms who BTDT, learning from midwives, receiving the brief instruction on NPR that was available to me. I know from experience how quickly an ambulance can arrive and transport me to the hospital. My first pregnancy was low-risk and uncomplicated; the second one was as well. I had herbs on hand to deal with hemorrhage, the main thing that could have put me out of commission, and even shock. I taught my "birth attendants" (husband and stepmom) what I could. There was very little chance of a serious complication, and I felt prepared to handle any complications using my knowledge and my instincts. If hospital transfer had been required I felt confident that it would happen in a timely fashion--because as the homebirth statistics show, usually it does.

 

If you fear those "unlikely unknowns" for yourself, it's not such a stretch to believe that you fear them for others out of love and concern. I felt like I had a safety net. The difference between us is that a different type of safety net makes you comfortable. That's just fine, because plenty of women do want or even need a midwife--just not all of them. There are situations where I wouldn't UC nor would I advise another woman to UC. I see where you are coming from: you want a different safety net than "us," you know you're not the only woman who wants or needs that different safety net, and you don't want to watch quietly while all women are encouraged not to seek it, especially without all of the pertinent information that helps make it as safe as possible. There is no right safety net. We are all too individual for there to be. :)

 

MJB, are you saying that UC isn't the safest way to birth...but is worth it because of all the other benefits and isn't unsafe enough to forego those benefits...?


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I'm finding part of this debate really interesting - is fear of doctors/hospitals a good reason to choose UC? Some say it's disempowering because you're being driven by negatives instead of positives, others say it's perfectly reasonable to fear medical intervention. In my experience, both sides are true. I'm very skeptical about the medical establishment, particularly in pregnancy and childbirth. I have serious, informed intellectual concerns and intuitively, my 'inner wild animal' (as somebody put it) just doesn't like the whole medical treatment. I wanted to have a UC for my first birth, but in the end, decided to go to hospital. When I got there, the hospital staff gaped at me and asked in astonishment why I hadn't sought any medical assistance for my pregnancy. I wasn't in any state at the time to explain my entire complex matrix of spiritual, philosophical, intuitive, political, rational and educated views on the matter ... I didn't even try to explain. So they just started guessing. The only reason they could imagine was that I must be terrified of hospitals. It's true, I don't like hospitals, but I found this attitude really offensive. They were thinking of me as a child who cries at the sight of a needle and they pitied me. They started speaking to me as if english was my second language, as if I was mentally defective.

 

I get part of Meepycat's original point - it's probably better to focus on positive affirmations 'I trust my body' etc rather than thinking 'I must avoid the hospital.' It's not empowering to think of yourself as fearful. But I also understand why people were offended by the implication that there's something unhealthy about distrusting the medical establishment. I'm guessing that most women who are drawn to free-birth are like me in that they have very complex reasons. When you say 'fear of doctors/hospitals" it makes it sound kind of trivial, but there's actually a lot in it, including political, philosophical & spiritual issues. It's really great to see it all being drawn out here.

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#48 of 49 Old 04-13-2011, 09:16 AM
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MJB, are you saying that UC isn't the safest way to birth...but is worth it because of all the other benefits and isn't unsafe enough to forego those benefits...?


For me, yes. When deciding how to birth my third baby, for instance, I considered that I am a low risk mom, with two uncomplicated vaginal births in my history, with 7 hospitals within 4 miles and midwifery and neonatal resuscitation training, and decided the benefits outweighed the risks. I wasn't interested in using the local midwives, so I was deciding between UC and hospital birth (or traveling for a midwife-attended out of hospital birth). I really wanted my sons (then 7.5 and 4.5) to be present at the birth, and that wouldn't have been allowed at the hospital, especially with the policies they put in place last year for H1N1. I wanted another waterbirth, which isn't allowed in the hospitals here. I wanted my husband to catch the baby, which might have been doable in the hospital, but maybe not. I decided to UC.

It turned out to be a harder birth than my others and I came close to transferring both during labor (with a stubborn posterior baby and a cervical lip, which I ended up reducing myself, at which point she finally turned and came out) and after, for bleeding. I didn't end up transferring and it was a nice experience for all of us once it was over (IMO, the best part of any homebirth is being in your own bed afterwards!) 

There are a lot of situations where UC is not a safe choice, and I don't even usually tell people that I had one because it scares me to think that people who have no idea what they're doing might give birth all alone a half hour or more from emergency medical care. It's insane to say that UC is always the safest way to give birth. It can be a safe enough choice for some people in some places (and even then, not every pregnancy). You have people coming onto forums like this going "I'm due yesterday and my midwife dropped me because I'm high risk, can I just stay home and do it alone?" and my answer then is, "You probably shouldn't." Should you UC triplets or a 34 week preemie? No. 

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#49 of 49 Old 04-13-2011, 02:02 PM
 
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We seem to have very similar viewpoints then. I'm a huge supporter of UC for low-risk women, but I don't feel it's always the safest way--just usually, for low risk mamas who are comfortable with it, ready for the responsibility, and able to do the research required to make it safe.


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