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#1 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am a mama of 4 girls and 23 weeks pregnant with another surprise due in July. Just recently started looking into UC and came here to read some of the stories/threads and learn a bit more information. I have been doing lots of research over the past couple days and at times I feel excited about it and sometimes I just don't know if I could do it. I feel like I only have a short time to decide so I am making use of my insomnia to learn as much as I can so that I can feel more confident.


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#2 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 08:14 AM
 
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Just keep reading. Remember most docs and some midwives can cause more harm than what help they give - so that should be a factor in your decision. Do what feels right for you though.


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#3 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 08:29 AM
 
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When I was thinking of UCing, I felt very strongly that *if* I was going to do it, it would be best done from a place of knowledge and confidence, and not from a place of fear.  UCing because I know my body can do this = Awesome!  UCing because doctors suck and I don't trust them = not at all empowering.

 

I wanted to make a baby the way that I make bread:  with intention and attention, knowledge and patience, and in a way that was centered in our ordinary lives.  To me, going to a hospital, or calling in a midwife, felt like taking the experience out of the sacred mundane that I strive for and putting it on another plane, not part of the same fabric as our daily family life. 

 

I trust a large-ish number of doctors.  Doctors have always done well by me, and I'm good at working the system to get most of what I want as well as what I need.  It was just a question of whether I needed their help. 

 

We passed on UC and on homebirth because I had placenta previa - we needed the help.  I feel like our family is complete and we are incredibly unlikely to do this again.  I don't know what I would do if we did, whether I would still prefer to stay home or whether (since my last pregnancy left me a little traumatized), I would find hospital care reassuring and seek it for that reason.

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#4 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post

When I was thinking of UCing, I felt very strongly that *if* I was going to do it, it would be best done from a place of knowledge and confidence, and not from a place of fear.  UCing because I know my body can do this = Awesome!  UCing because doctors suck and I don't trust them = not at all empowering.


Yeah, I hear what you are saying. I didn't mean it that way and I disagree with you. At least all the doctors I've been around have totally sucked. But, anyway, that isn't the only reason to UC. I just mentioned it is something to consider because I do consider hospitals to be a dangerous place for normal childbirth to take place as the majority of docs are intervention happy. I've even had docs that seemed to be listening to me and going along with what I'm saying and then they go ahead and do what they want anyway. So, it's sort of a gamble.

 

I agree though, that you should research and become very knowledgeable about birth and what you want. I think UC is one of the best ways to go just because you have more control over the situation (in my opinion) and you can be in the comfort of your home with people you love (or some choose to be alone - not my personal preference :) ) I also think it is one of the safest ways to give birth because you don't have interference happy people trying to do things that can make a good birth turn not so great. For example, after I delivered my second child after being forced onto my back against my will (was in hands and knees position and happily pushing) the baby came out, they immediately cut the cord against my wishes and then they did forceful uterine massage and cord traction. My placenta came out and I started hemorrhaging. They gave me a shot of pitocin and a D & C. Not fun! If they would have just left me alone, everything was going very well. So, that's just an example for ya. I do think it is important to consider where would be the safest place to be for your birth. That's what I had originally meant. But, as I said, go with whatever feels most comfortable and right to you as that is the most important.

 

 


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#5 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 09:58 AM
 
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Welcome!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dayiscoming2006 View Post

Just keep reading.



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I can understand your sense of urgency! I hope you quickly find your path here among all those traveled before you.

 

I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of dayiscoming and MeepyCat... I wouldn't say a "large-ish" number of doctors I've worked with have impressed me at all, but they were just following their training. Sadly. Not out to get me, just not able to see the forest for the trees particularly in regard to birth. Nor would I want to UC out of fear or purely for financial reasons, either. I think we all knew/know in our hearts if it was or was not right for us, after investigating to whatever point we personally required for peace of mind.

 

I would absolutely agree that the chances of having a normal, natural, physiological birth in a hospital are extremely low, because you've got so many people trying to honor their training rather than honor you, your wishes and your birth. Though in a situation like MeepyCat was in, of course we can only be thankful there was adequate care available for her and her LO.

 

All that having been said... I've never UC'd. redface.gif I just really want to... and have been wanting to for years! We're hoping and praying with this birth, but it could go so many different ways, with factors beyond my control. We'll see. :)


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#6 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 01:38 PM
 
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Keep reading on it, like they said. Also, block out negative influence. This doesn't mean bock out facts (contrary to what nonbelievers would have you think); in fact, the real facts which lie beyond our mainstream misinformation will be quite supportive of UC. Most facts to the contrary are from admittedly skewed studies, and the medical establishment, who gets its dough when you DON'T believe in UC. Keep that in the back of your mind.

 

Meepy said doing it for believing in your body equals good, but for not believing in docs equals bad. I say why? I say why not both? Everyone's perspective is so relative. For instance, my personal experiences have driven me to UC because I not only believed in myself but grew wise enough to distrust my doctors. In Meepy's experience, she had positive reactions to the docs and probably even credits them greatly for helping her with her placenta previa. In light of the fact that she is no longer considering UC as something she will face in the future, it is very easy for her to think that many of us would be better off going with the docs like she did, too. It would be easy for her to think that some of us here are not suited for UC. This weaves into her own personal story and shapes her view of the world. Any of us in her position may have come out of it feeling the same way.

 

These are the personal perspectives coming from personal issues we have faced as individuals. It is all to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

The bigger picture and YOUR story has lead you here to us. Some part of you recognizes the virtue of UC and thinks you might need this. I think that hunch is almost always correct. I say question everything, trust no one entirely, listen to your instinct, and read read read.

 

Be wary of anyone who consistently warns you about UC who never has much good of anything to say about it. If their bottom line and end note is always that they or you would be better off not UCing, GRAIN. OF. SALT. Seriously.


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#7 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 02:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post

Meepy said doing it for believing in your body equals good, but for not believing in docs equals bad. I say why?



It was my statement, and I'll happily explain.

 

I am strongly in favor of reproductive choice.  Choice in when we get pregnant, choice in how we give birth, choice in how we raise our children.  When we act from a place of confidence, UC is just that:  a choice. 

 

However, when we act from a place of fear, when the force driving the decision is the belief that we'll be hurt if we seek help, UC isn't so much a choice as a last resort.

 

Also, while most births go fine, some women and some babies do need help.  There should be as few obstacles as possible to seeking the help you need, when and if you need it.  Fear of doctors and midwives is a major obstacle.  IMO, it's better to work through that fear and form partnerships with some medical professionals who you are able to trust, even if you choose not to use their services.

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#8 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 02:18 PM
 
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For me to UC, I had to let go of all the crap that's been instilled in me from birth that says women and babies die all the time and it's the hero doctors who save them.  Of course that's the message we all get, it's how the OB's make all that money!  Medicine is about booming business now, it's a megacorp, it's not about compassion or patient care.  I am aware that no matter how seemingly interested in what I want my OB is, in the end, he/she is going to do what he/she knows and that is medicalized childbirth.  I do not want interventions, I do not want an intrusion upon the sacred event that is my family bringing this new soul into the world together.  I want birth the way it should be, magic, sacred, beautiful art.  I also had to make peace with the idea that sometimes nature feels cruel, and as natural as birth is, the outcomes are not always what is desired.  Sometimes tragic things do happen, but I've spent a number of years informing myself now and I have come to understand that it is more often than not the medical interventions that lead to the tragedies and the doctors will look like the good guys, coming to our rescue to clean up what is essentially the mess they made.  However, sometimes moms or babies don't make it, sometimes, for whatever reason, maybe they aren't meant to.  This I had to make peace with, so I could birth (I would say unassisted here, but I was very assisted by my DH) without fear.  I had to learn to free fall into the arms of the universe.... UCing taught me how to trust.  This is not for everyone.  Follow your heart/your guts, which by the way have more neurons (the things that do our "thinking") than our actual brains do.  Best wishes, it's quite a journey!

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#9 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 02:44 PM
 
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I have plenty of reason to fear docs and midwives. I was still bleeding a ton with my hemorrhage that they caused the last time and they didn't even do any more to stop it. Thankfully, it did eventually slow down, but it was definitely more than the usual afterbirth flow. I was dizzy and lightheaded and could barely walk to get to the bathroom. Anyway, that kind of neglect and the original intervention may have killed me. Many interventions could possibly harm mother and baby and that should be considered. 

 

I agree with Elizabeth that you can come at it from both angles. I believe in my body's ability to give birth (I trust in God for all things) and I fear medical "professionals" that could do me harm. I do think in certain cases medical attention could be helpful. Maybe the OP could still seek an ultrasound or go to a few prenatal appointments to rule out some of the more obvious complications, though it'd be up to her if she felt that was needed or not. I went all UP last pregnancy except one ultrasound at 35 weeks and mostly UP this pregnancy with the exception of like 3 prenatal appointments and an ultrasound at 24 weeks. I'm feeling quite confident now. 

 

So, anyway, it is strange we got into a debate over our reasoning for UC - though it is a personal choice. We're all just giving an opinion here and OP, I just hope for you to research it out and come to the decision that feels right for you as I said before. Hope you weren't scared off by the little debate. :)


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#10 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 03:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post





It was my statement, and I'll happily explain.

 

I am strongly in favor of reproductive choice.  Choice in when we get pregnant, choice in how we give birth, choice in how we raise our children.  When we act from a place of confidence, UC is just that:  a choice. 

 

However, when we act from a place of fear, when the force driving the decision is the belief that we'll be hurt if we seek help, UC isn't so much a choice as a last resort.

 

Also, while most births go fine, some women and some babies do need help.  There should be as few obstacles as possible to seeking the help you need, when and if you need it.  Fear of doctors and midwives is a major obstacle.  IMO, it's better to work through that fear and form partnerships with some medical professionals who you are able to trust, even if you choose not to use their services.


Having an understanding of what there IS to "fear" from docs or midwives is crucial in making a choice. Without that, there is no choice at all. It's not a choice if we are ignorant and misinformed as to what the truths are. We are indoctrinated to believe in the system that has been built for us, and I call upon all of us to examine those facts and risks and challenge, and ask, if we need to give in to that at all or if we wouldn't be better of going it alone. For the vast majority of us, that answer is YES, alone (would be best). Last resort? Only if you think UC has to absolutely be miserable, or if you still believe the BS that UC is inherently risky and dangerous.

 

Am I saying I am completely anti-establishment and would never ever seek a doctor's care? No. Would I jeopardize the life of my child over the wish to UC? No. But, am I willing to learn the truth about what to expect in an honest to God natural birth, take responsibility for it, and run the risk of others perhaps like yourself judging me as being irrational or irresponsible? Hell yes. I'm worth it and so is my baby. Say what you may. It doesn't mean you understand me, us, or UC.

 

Docs have a place. That place is not at my normal and healthy birth.

 

And, what the other ladies said. Although I'm sure their rationale and clear headed reasonings will fall on some deaf ears. Because only people on the side one agrees with has "facts". It's a fact.

 


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#11 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you so much for your responses ladies! I have wanted to have a homebirth since I was pregnant with my 3rd child. When I was in labor with my 4th I was in labor for 3 days I went to the beach and just relaxed and took it as it came on the third day I hung out with my family until the contractions got worse then I just wanted to be alone. In my head I was just wanting to be home and have the baby but my hubby started panicking, rushed me to the hospital where I started being very uncomfortable and it was a big rush to get me on the hospital bed and while all this was happening my hubby agreed to have a medical team that was in training come in the room! Luckily 20min later I had my baby girl. When I found out I was pregnant with my 5th I knew I definitely wanted a homebirth and started looking into midwives, I had never heard of UC up until a month ago. In my heart I know I want and can do it, my hubby on the other hand doesnt think it's a good idea which puts some fear in the back of my head about "what if's" that could possibly happen. So I am doing as everyone recommends research, research, research! 


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#12 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 05:39 PM
 
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I can think of lots of rational, responsible reasons to choose UC, and I certainly don't think that it has to be, or that it is, miserable.  One of the things that made me consider UC and research it for myself was the freebirth videos I found on the internet featuring laboring women who looked peaceful and joyful.  My son's birth was kind of a nightmare, and I felt that I would have been much better off had I not been in a hospital.

 

That said, I don't think that unassisted birth is the safest option.  Whether it's safe enough for you has to be your call, and I won't interfere with that.  I know of no evidence suggesting that UC is safer than hospital birth or midwife assisted home birth, and when I think about it logically, I suspect that UC is more dangerous.  I don't think it's so dangerous that it's crazy to try.  (It would have been crazy for me to try - but I admit that I was a special circumstance.)

 

One of the reasons that I worry about people who fear doctors is that I worry about what will happen in the event that the labor does get miserable, or if their intuition starts to tell them that something is wrong.  I think it likely that most women will come through okay, but a substantial minority really do need help, and I want them to be able to get it.

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#13 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 06:08 PM
 
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Um, I have a reason to fear doctors as previously explained. I would seek a doctor if I felt me or my baby were in real danger at any time. Most of the time the docs are the ones that are causing the problems though with their protocols and interventions. Your case is rare MeepyCat.  

 

And how in the world would it even be possible to get the stats needed to know whether UC is as safe as or safer than midwife assisted home birth? There's no way to run those number, obviously. Midwife assisted home birth has already been ruled to be safer than hospital birth though. I don't know where the stats are but I've seen them a few times. 

 

I know both of my births would have been safer at home and probably safer unassisted as well. I personally absolutely feel that in this intervention friendly age, UC can be the safer choice. You have a right to your opinion but so do all of us. 

 

Though you briefly considered an UC, you don't seem too happy about others considering it unless they have the exact same reasons that you had. 


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#14 of 49 Old 03-30-2011, 09:35 PM
 
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I think that when some flirt with the idea of UC but then later feel they can no longer proceed with those plans, it leaves an impression on them. I think it feels better and more okay to say to yourself "it's okay, UC isn't really that safe, anyway. It was for the best."  Then you can come and pick apart others who are going to attempt a UC themselves. It validates your own experience. You're not really looking to disapprove of others, but to re-approve of yourself. Hey, forgive yourself, and forgive me too for doing what I have to do because it is right.

 

I don't know if this is Meepy's story, but I've seen it, and I don't agree with that point of view because it chooses to avoid self-examination in favor of pointing a finger at others. I think lots of us were suffering birth trauma and we had different ways of reconciling our disappointments. One way is to be very anti-birth (I was there for a short while), where you have this reverence and fear of it, where you feel like it would best be placed in the hands of "professionals" just to avoid a repeat of what may have happened to you before. It's what happens when you don't believe in yourself with birth anymore. Then there are those (where I have found myself to be now) who decide that birth is NOT something to fear. Yes, tread cautiously, but don't put it into the hands of others when it is safer on your own. That's a healthier perspective, because it involves looking into the self more deeply and personal growth, rather than fear and judgment in excess. It would be healing if more of us could arrive at that conclusion. I have healed that pain in me, and wish all to be healed of these pains. I no longer get mad at good birth stories. Even when I hear of painless births (which I have yet to have), I'm finally in a place where I can think "good for them" in sincerity, instead of being like those who will say, "hahaha, they're so full of it." How bitter. What an ugly and dark place to dwell.

 

And yes, statistics show home birth is safer in the US than hospital birth. Usually this speaks to a midwife being present, but the information available on midwife intervention as an interference with the physiology of birth (Dick-Read, Odent) gives evidence to show that a birthing woman, like most mammals, is better off not being poked and prodded and interfered with or even OBSERVED because her natural biological response (despite her own education or logic) takes over and will cause complications. Whether hands-on "medwives" or very free-spirited midwives, just having another person there to watch, grade, coach and judge your labor can hinder it, and that in itself causes more harm than good in the form of fight/flight in mother and fetal distress, prolonged labor, etc. The body knows how to give birth without you even trying. You don't need to add complication to what is usually a simple process.

 

But hey, wth do I know.

 

And btw, I know I can't speak for all UCers, but just because we have a healthy "fear" of doctors doesn't mean we won't seek help when we need it. It means we will seek help ONLY when we need it. If there is a need for their services, I will go to them because I want to live and I want my child to live. It is a shame though that this can even be an issue and I blame that on the climate of health care worship in our country. Doctors are just people. They are flawed. They make wrong judgments just as you or I. They are not scientists, so some of their information on some issues for which they hold great power is incomplete. If they weren't so feared and respected, maybe UCers would feel comfortable going to them for help when needed instead of worrying that they will be somehow mishandled and mistreated for their unconventional beliefs.


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#15 of 49 Old 03-31-2011, 11:33 AM
 
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Elizabeth, my story is that my husband and I were discussing how we wanted to bring our second child into the world, planning and hoping for a natural, non-interventive experience, when I was diagnosed with placenta previa.  We held out hope for the condition to clear up, and allow us our preferred experience, but it didn't.  Unassisted birth would have been radically unsafe for me, that time.  I don't generalize from my experience a whole lot.  I know a great many things that are true for placenta previa patients, and I do not try to apply those to anyone else. 

 

I think that unassisted birth is birth without a safety net, and therefore less safe than other options... but not so much less safe that it should automatically be ruled out.  Riding on a motorcycle is less safe than driving in a car, but people ride motorcycles anyway, and I don't think they're nuts.  The big difference I see between the motorcycle riding crowd and the UCing crowd is that the bikers are much more upfront about their risks.

 

I would love to see the stats that say that home birth is safer than hospital birth in the US - the statistics I have run across have not born out that claim.

 

My reading of Dick-Read's work leaves me deeply cynical about him and his motives.  I think that his writing on birth was more grounded in racism, classism and eugenics than it was in fact.  I am, and remain, deeply uncomfortable with the idea that if we just stand back and do nothing, everything will come out alright.  That simply isn't always true.  (And my body, apparently, did not "know" that placentas need to implant a certain distance away from the cervix, an oversight that renders whatever knowledge my body might or might not have about birthing totally irrelevant.)

 

Oh, and ETA:

Quote:
They are not scientists

I radically disagree.  Some doctors neglect the scientific parts of their work - those are bad doctors, who should retire from practice immediately.  The profession requires ongoing research, observation and education.  Doctors are scientists.  (Still doesn't mean they're always right.)

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#16 of 49 Old 03-31-2011, 01:16 PM
 
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meepy, it seems to me that Elizabeth is right, while it was beneficial for you to have assistance because of the Placenta Previa, you seem to be working out your disappointment in your birth experience by believing UCing to be a less safe option.  The human animal thing is totally true, just like Elizabeth was speaking about--- I feel that I may be more in touch with the wild animal in me than most of my fellow caged humans (i get that feeling about you as well, Elizabeth--correct me if i'm wrong)..... so maybe my intuition is just more clear and it's easier therefore, for me to feel confident in my choices.  However, I know without a doubt that the act of even being observed can interfere(initially my DH wanted his sister who is a nurse to just hang, not help, but be there just in case and I declined--- after a beautiful amazing birth with just us, he has all the faith in me and the process in the world this time around), because even the act of observation by an outsider (someone not intimately connected with me and my birthing body) would be seen as a threat to my subconscious animal self--  Could hinder labor, could lead to complications, no thanks.  To me, UC is clearly the evolutionary prerogative.  If animals over the ages had just gone about birthing in front of any near stranger, I don't think we could have safely evolved to the place that we're at.  We wouldn't have made it here as a species, our babies would've been eaten by some predator.  Wether or not our educated brains think our docs or midwives are going to eat our babies is not the point, as culture has been speeding along for quite some time now and evolution is a slow process that is going to require eons to catch up.  It's hardwired in our reptilian brains.  I don't know about you, but I prefer not to try to birth a baby in "fight or flight".   I would also like to say that as anti establishment as I know myself to be, and as rightfully terrified of the western medical profession as I know myself to be, if me and my keen intuition think for a second there's a problem, bet your ass I'll be going to the hospital because  I want my baby and I alive.  Evolution also takes over here, insisting upon what is needed for survival.  

How many people bring their beloved laboring pets immediately to a vet? or call a cat or dog midwife? ummmm (only the really crazy ones), because in spite of how badly you may not want anything to happen to your pet, when it comes to an "animal" (how have we been led to believe that we are not animals?!), we believe in the birth process.  If we thought that something was going awry during that labor or birth, we would all probably be on the phone to the vet, but people don't bring animals there as standard practice 'just in case'.  Just my opinion, but humans are a lil more evolved than dogs and cats (yay! giant forebrain) so why can we not trust ourselves with a completely natural process?!

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#17 of 49 Old 03-31-2011, 01:26 PM
 
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Doing some replies to comments, in color, see below.

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Elizabeth, my story is that my husband and I were discussing how we wanted to bring our second child into the world, planning and hoping for a natural, non-interventive experience, when I was diagnosed with placenta previa.  We held out hope for the condition to clear up, and allow us our preferred experience, but it didn't.  Unassisted birth would have been radically unsafe for me, that time.  I don't generalize from my experience a whole lot.  I know a great many things that are true for placenta previa patients, and I do not try to apply those to anyone else. I understood your story.

 

I think that unassisted birth is birth without a safety net, and therefore less safe than other options... I highly disagree, and it sounds like the opinion of someone who is either trying to make peace with their own birth experience where they did not UC, or the opinion of someone who doesn't believe in UC enough in the first place who should not or would not go through with it even in the healthiest of circumstances. JMO. but not so much less safe that it should automatically be ruled out. Why not? The picture you paint is pretty risky. At that rate, shouldn't it be ruled out? Less safe than other options? Uh, yeah, don't roll the dice if that's the case. Riding on a motorcycle is less safe than driving in a car, but people ride motorcycles anyway, and I don't think they're nuts.  The big difference I see between the motorcycle riding crowd and the UCing crowd is that the bikers are much more upfront about their risks. Another disagreement. I'm not going to judge how upfront or not upfront bikers are about riding motorcycles, but I will say that I feel that UCers and particularly UCers here are aware of the "risks", taking responsibility for them, and making plans in the event of an emergency. Well?

 

I would love to see the stats that say that home birth is safer than hospital birth in the US - the statistics I have run across have not born out that claim. Yeah, you're reading medical stuff, I imagine. As long as you continue to trust them as THE authority, there really isn't a reason to have any faith in UC.

 

My reading of Dick-Read's work leaves me deeply cynical about him and his motives.  I think that his writing on birth was more grounded in racism, classism and eugenics than it was in fact. Really? I guess I'm a bit behind. I hadn't gotten to those ways of thinking yet. If and when I do it could certainly change my view of him. I am, and remain, deeply uncomfortable with the idea that if we just stand back and do nothing, everything will come out alright. Factually, whether one man is flawed or not, it is the truth that usually doing nothing is better than intervening in most cases. That's usually what most paramedics are trained to do when coming across a laboring woman. They do very little if anything unless she is in obvious distress. When you read about emergency childbirth, most recommendations are to do nothing because most situations do not warrant intervention.  That simply isn't always true. I agree that it isn't always true.  (And my body, apparently, did not "know" that placentas need to implant a certain distance away from the cervix, an oversight that renders whatever knowledge my body might or might not have about birthing totally irrelevant.) This is why you are the way you are. You have an issue where you have a judgment now on your body. "MY body didn't know what to do"-- ouch. True or not, that's a view you now have of the world. You feel that your body somehow could not be trusted, and it has left you wary about birth in general and grateful for medical intervention. You can't be faulted for that. HOWEVER, your situation should not be compared to everyone's, and you should not put your feelings and bias onto others because it does not apply to everyone.

 

Oh, and ETA:

I radically disagree. Go ahead. I spoke to doctors who barely knew how to spell (yes, we wrote each other). I know that plenty of doctors write prescriptions and get kickbacks without fully understanding what the side effects or chemical interactions with other things/drugs, other ramifications and consequences are... and the truth is there are SO many drugs out there now, do you honestly expect all these busy doctors to know all the data on the pills and procedures they are prescribing or ordering? They are taught what is "safe" and assume what is "safe" based on acceptability and availability, but who chooses THOSE standards? Smart scientists who care about YOU? Ha. Do you expect all OBs to know a thing about natural birth and it's science and physiology when they've got your pelvis tilted the wrong way and your feet in stirrups, or do you expect them to know their specialty better-- which is emergency intervention and birth as something to be sterilized, managed, and a mechanical thing they need to shape and control? We are fooling ourselves. It's easier for us to trust doctors because we get to place it in their hands and imagine that they know better and have all the answers. It absolves us of ultimate responsibility-- or so we think. Even when we choose to pass it over to someone else, the truth is it was always OUR choice. You can either own it, or try to let someone else be held responsible. If I don't require their specific field of expertise, I will rely on mine. I know how to birth a baby naturally and vaginally. They do not. Some doctors neglect the scientific parts of their work - those are bad doctors, who should retire from practice immediately.  The profession requires ongoing research, observation and education.  Doctors are scientists.  (Still doesn't mean they're always right.)


How many doctors do you really think do ongoing research, and where is all their info coming from if they were? Drug companies? Medical journals? Or are they looking to science and biology and nature to learn the foundation and basics? Doctors are NOT scientists. They aren't chemists. And they have limited time to delve into such topics when they probably believe their medical school taught them all they needed to know. Yet, they wield amazing power in areas that you'd think require scientific and chemical knowledge. And of course they aren't always right. *sigh*

 


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#18 of 49 Old 03-31-2011, 02:14 PM
 
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Ooog. I hate the multi-colored inter-leafed reply.  It's a total pain to read and to respond to.

 

In re:  birth without a safety net:  If you don't fall off the tightrope, you don't need a safety net.  Most tightrope walkers get across just fine, most laboring women do just fine.  But now and then, things beyond our control go wrong, and the safety net (useless and unused in hundreds of prior cases) becomes critical.  If you want to go without a safety net, that is your call.  You know your needs and your capacities.  But you should also know the risks you are exposed to. 

 

People on this board, and in other conversations about natural birthing, commonly assert that unassisted birth is safer, but when asked, they do not provide evidence to back this statement up.  I find this omission really very telling:  if there was evidence, surely you could point me in its general direction?

 

When I made the comment about my body not "knowing" where to put the placenta, I was being facetious, and taking your comment about bodies "knowing" how to birth to a sort of logical extreme.  I'm not always thrilled with my body, but the placenta thing is not a real cause of complaint.  That was just bad luck.

 

The feeling I most find myself working through on this forum is frustration:  frustration at the absolutes expressed, frustration that the evolutionary drive that we have to seek assistance in labor is described as dangerous to indulge, frustration that when I express the idea that you might, at some point for some reason, want help, I am told that I am mistaken about the safety of birth, frustration that statistics and facts about evolution seem to be so generally misunderstood, frustration that assertions are made and never supported.  I'm not here about my labor or about yours.  I do speak up for my experience, but I don't do it because I'm looking for some kind of healing (I don't think I need it, thanks), but because it goes counter to many of the assertions made here.

 

I repeat:  I'm all for choices, including this one.  I'm also in favor of facts.

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Not sure how a doctor or midwife is a safety net? They could be the very person that causes you or your baby harm. I've known plenty of ignorant doctors and at least two ignorant midwifes. I've known 2 somewhat decent doctors my whole life and they still prescribe nasty meds and stuff that don't actually help because that's what they are told. I call them somewhat decent as they were open to allowing a patient to have their own opinion. That really seems hard to find. I've also known docs that have made serious wrong judgement and risked the lives of their patients. I know of one that sent an old family friend home with pneumonia and she ended up dying. My grandma was throwing up a ton over the course of a few weeks and they just kept sending her home - she nearly died of kidney failure - only lived a few more years after that on dialisis though she may have lived longer if they hadn't allowed her kidneys to continue to take all the burden for that long.

My sister was sent home in labor with her 31 weeker and pre- E and a prescription for a medication that was incorrect and not supposed to be prescribed for that condition. Thankfully she did manage to go in and get help from a more competent doctor the next day, who stopped her labor and got her transfered somewhere that handles high risk pregnancies better. 

 

And, I have yet to meet a single OB doctor or midwife that seems cool with that natural birthing process. I know there are a few out there but they are hard to find and a person really is taking a gamble as they could tell you what you want to hear and then do whatever they want when the time comes. - Speaking from personal experience.

 

(As far as evolution, I'm staying out of it as I believe in the sovereign God of the Bible and I don't believe evolution co-insides with that.) 


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Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post

Ooog. I hate the multi-colored inter-leafed reply.  It's a total pain to read and to respond to. I know. But try to hold down your seething rage for just a moment. I don't do it to be annoying, I do it because it's easier for me. It's like having a conversation, sort of.

 

In re:  birth without a safety net:  If you don't fall off the tightrope, you don't need a safety net.  Most tightrope walkers get across just fine, most laboring women do just fine.  But now and then, things beyond our control go wrong, and the safety net (useless and unused in hundreds of prior cases) becomes critical.  If you want to go without a safety net, that is your call.  You know your needs and your capacities.  But you should also know the risks you are exposed to. Just because you can't see my safety net doesn't mean it's not there. You can't take my word for it that it's there, but how is that my problem?

 

People on this board, and in other conversations about natural birthing, commonly assert that unassisted birth is safer, but when asked, they do not provide evidence to back this statement up.  I find this omission really very telling:  if there was evidence, surely you could point me in its general direction?It's just a little exhausting. I honestly believe I can find some links, but what's the point? Is that going to change your mind? I don't think you'll ever be happy or satisfied with what we are saying here. I'll probably show some later, just because I want to give you that opportunity to debunk whatever.

 

When I made the comment about my body not "knowing" where to put the placenta, I was being facetious, Yes... and taking your comment about bodies "knowing" how to birth to a sort of logical extreme.  I'm not always thrilled with my body, but the placenta thing is not a real cause of complaint.  That was just bad luck. Agree. But... do you? Really? Or are you beating yourself or others up over it? Are you looking for affirmation somewhere? Maybe affirmation that you did what you had to do? Well, you did, okay? You don't need to knock other people down over it.

 

The feeling I most find myself working through on this forum is frustration:I realize that.  frustration at the absolutes expressed, I don't mean to speak in absolutes, and there is usually room for exception. Our problem here is that we draw the line at different places. If you think about it, we are each speaking in some form of perceived "absolutes", because if we weren't, there would not be such disagreement here. Therefore our problem is not exactly absolutes, but that you don't like mine and I don't like yours.  frustration that the evolutionary drive that we have to seek assistance in labor is described as dangerous to indulge, I disagree that this is a natural or evolutionary drive. I think that's a matter of misinterpretation. My evolutionary drive said "leave me the eff alone, everybody". frustration that when I express the idea that you might, at some point for some reason, want help, I am told that I am mistaken about the safety of birth, We disagree for the reasons for needing help, not that help may ever be needed. And we disagree on the frequency with which people may need help. frustration that statistics and facts about evolution seem to be so generally misunderstood, I agree, but on your end, obviously. frustration that assertions are made and never supported. I'm frustrated with the sources brought up here to the contrary, and those on the opposing side who pop in here apparently don't like the sources some of us have been using. I guess we need to just agree that you are the one with the facts, because clearly anything else is just insanity.  I'm not here about my labor or about yours. Of course you are.  I do speak up for my experience, but I don't do it because I'm looking for some kind of healing (I don't think I need it, thanks), but because it goes counter to many of the assertions made here. Then why ARE you here? Maybe you've convinced yourself you are helping someone. Is love and concern your motivation? I don't think a lot of people are very forthcoming about this, and furthermore, very self-aware as to why they do what they do. I think tons of women need healing and don't realize it. They put on a nice strong face and battle against the current in their own way. But take that or leave it, I and others here speak from OUR experiences too, but I suppose those are just as worthless as yours? The difference is I interpreted my story to open up to new possibilities, new truths. With yours, you are eliminating them, you are shutting doors from fear of the unlikely unknown. And you want to talk about absolutes.

 

I repeat:  I'm all for choices, including this one.  I'm also in favor of facts.

There's got to be a middle or common ground.

 

I'm in favor of real choices, and of facts. I had been misinformed until I realized the truth about UC. I used to believe what you believe. I'm telling you it's not the final word.

 


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#21 of 49 Old 03-31-2011, 03:02 PM
 
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Not sure how a doctor or midwife is a safety net? It's not! That's an illusion. The preferred illusion. They could be the very person that causes you or your baby harm.  Far more likely with them than on your own. I've known plenty of ignorant doctors and at least two ignorant midwifes. Me too! And it took me my whole young life to realize this. I've known 2 somewhat decent doctors my whole life and they still prescribe nasty meds and stuff that don't actually help because that's what they are told. I call them somewhat decent as they were open to allowing a patient to have their own opinion. That really seems hard to find. I've also known docs that have made serious wrong judgement and risked the lives of their patients.What's alarming is how many patients don't even realize that they were among the risked. Many of these folks end up thanking their doctors! Laboring women like us (like me) in the hospital used like guinea pigs on drugs that weren't approved for the uses they were administering them. A common occurrence. I know of one that sent an old family friend home with pneumonia and she ended up dying. My grandma was throwing up a ton over the course of a few weeks and they just kept sending her home - she nearly died of kidney failure - only lived a few more years after that on dialisis though she may have lived longer if they hadn't allowed her kidneys to continue to take all the burden for that long.

My sister was sent home in labor with her 31 weeker and pre- E and a prescription for a medication that was incorrect and not supposed to be prescribed for that condition. Wow, I hadn't even read this part yet. See? I wasn't bs-ing. Thankfully she did manage to go in and get help from a more competent doctor the next day, who stopped her labor and got her transfered somewhere that handles high risk pregnancies better. 

 

And, I have yet to meet a single OB doctor or midwife that seems cool with that natural birthing process. I know there are a few out there but they are hard to find and a person really is taking a gamble as they could tell you what you want to hear and then do whatever they want when the time comes. - Speaking from personal experience.

 

(As far as evolution, I'm staying out of it as I believe in the sovereign God of the Bible and I don't believe evolution co-insides with that.) 


I'm not religious and have absolutely no problems with evolution, and my personal belief is that science and religion don't have to be enemies, but I recognize that many UC-ers are Christians and have certain beliefs that don't mesh with mine. This is just my two cents and not really in any way meant to open a new topic about religion.


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#22 of 49 Old 04-01-2011, 11:59 AM
 
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meepy, you're talking of tight rope walkers and safety nets..... how many people will go deliver their babies "safely" (presumably) in a hospital or birthing center and then opt to drive their family home in a car? hmmmmm........

 

And Daisy--- are you aware that even many christians are coming around and realizing that evolution is not something that one can just opt not to believe in, the evidence is overwhelming.... I've heard lots of christians posit the idea that possibly evolution is part of god's design?

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#23 of 49 Old 04-01-2011, 03:28 PM
 
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I honestly disagree Light but I'm not going there. :) as this isn't a religious forum and I actually think it's against the rules to go into any "debate" about that. 

 

Regardless, I think we can agree on many other things when it comes to UC.


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#24 of 49 Old 04-01-2011, 06:43 PM
 
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I'm sure we would all have a nice little debate on this topic! LOL. I'm just glad and even amazed, in fact, that we can all be a strong sisterhood with the UC thing. I know in many other facets of life, we would probably find ourselves butting heads. I think it's incredible that we can converge on this issue, and it's beautiful. If only more people were able to find unity, rather than separation from one another... :D                     grouphug.gif


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#25 of 49 Old 04-02-2011, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow this got a little heated while I was away! LOL (I did stop reading after awhile, sorry I hate debates can't keep up ADD) I've been off doing lots of research! And feeling more confidant than ever! I don't fear hospitals or doctors I've had a couple of experiences that weren't ideal with 2 of my births but I have always known that I didn't feel right giving birth there it felt like my privacy was being invaded and my personal choices on how I wanted to birth were not taken seriously but until a few years ago I really didn't know there were all these other options.When I heard about UC it felt like this is what I should be doing. It feels right at this moment.


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#26 of 49 Old 04-02-2011, 07:50 AM
 
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Good for you Maria. I am not sure how this got to be a debate in the first place, but oh well. :) Glad you're able to navigate around it. 


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#27 of 49 Old 04-03-2011, 10:49 PM
 
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sometime hospital births go wrong....sometime midwives are wrong...sometime UC do not end well. There is not way to know.

 

I was reading this story and I was amazed by this "Super homebirther of 9,10 and 11lb babies, transferring to hospital with a stuck baby, the humiliation."

 

Really? Worried about humiliation or being superbirther?  The story ended well and the woman had another child, home birth, later on, thank to the "horrible doctors"

 

There tons of UC in Africa where mothers and children dies in birth all the time, mother left with fistula and leave as outcasts, babies suffer from birth trauma

 

We  in the West are really spoiled with choices. There is back up here even one is home alone....911 and help will be on the way.

 

There is a middle way. Not every birth modality is right for every woman, every baby and every situation.  I am for a woman's choice whatever it is.

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Thank you so much for your responses ladies! I have wanted to have a homebirth since I was pregnant with my 3rd child. When I was in labor with my 4th I was in labor for 3 days I went to the beach and just relaxed and took it as it came on the third day I hung out with my family until the contractions got worse then I just wanted to be alone. In my head I was just wanting to be home and have the baby but my hubby started panicking, rushed me to the hospital where I started being very uncomfortable and it was a big rush to get me on the hospital bed and while all this was happening my hubby agreed to have a medical team that was in training come in the room! Luckily 20min later I had my baby girl. When I found out I was pregnant with my 5th I knew I definitely wanted a homebirth and started looking into midwives, I had never heard of UC up until a month ago. In my heart I know I want and can do it, my hubby on the other hand doesnt think it's a good idea which puts some fear in the back of my head about "what if's" that could possibly happen. So I am doing as everyone recommends research, research, research! 

I TOTALY HEAR YOU! my hubby is a bit concerned about the "what if" and it does make me over think sometimes. I would like to be alone this time. I had a HB with a MW last time and it was way nicer then my hossy birth with DD1. I felt like I was hovered over though. someone following me and telling me what to do overall. dont get me wrong I had a great mw and assistant /doula. we are trying to jump from the hb with a mw to UC also....
 

 


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sometime hospital births go wrong....sometime midwives are wrong...sometime UC do not end well. There is not way to know.

....

There tons of UC in Africa where mothers and children dies in birth all the time, mother left with fistula and leave as outcasts, babies suffer from birth trauma

 

We  in the West are really spoiled with choices. There is back up here even one is home alone....911 and help will be on the way.

.....


I'm for the choice of the woman too. I will say comparing here to Africa is definitely a long shot though. They aren't exactly in the best conditions there. They tend to be a lot less healthy and have hygiene issues - lack of hand washing, etc. 

 


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#30 of 49 Old 04-04-2011, 02:09 PM
 
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Seriously. And to say something like "we here in the West are spoiled with our birth choices"... well we should be. Everyone should be "spoiled" with the opportunity to pick THE best path for them, and I extend that same sentiment to women everywhere. I WANT women in Africa or anywhere to be "spoiled". I want the best for all.

 

Now another issue I take with "spoiled", is that, how exactly are we spoiled when the majority are making choices out of misinformation more than anything? When a woman elects a c-section because someone tells her her baby is too big, or she had a C last time and is better off doing it again, I think that this kind of "spoiling" leads to death. We are certainly spoiling people in the most literal sense! It's hard to call people spoiled in the glamorous figurative sense when I think of the ultimate consequences they are facing, and they don't even seem to know it.

 

And anything happening in the third world is primarily due to the factors surrounding their lifestyle and not childbirth itself. If catastrophe happens to a mother in Africa, it has more to do with her living conditions (poverty, perhaps hygiene as Day mentioned, etc.) than childbirth itself. Most of us in the West ARE a far cry from that. Childbirth itself is not inherently dangerous, it's the other factors that come into play which are. Yet, animals do it every day and seem to fair well. On the other hand, what about the women in Africa who are able to labor unhindered because we haven't put our Western fear and interventions into them? Most African tribes birth alone. Why might that be? Now for women who you apparently feel have so much more to worry about in birth than we do, they handle it as though they can do without all the attendants and interference (and they aren't "spoiled").

 

It's like you feel that just because we have the resources that we must use them. Like having a resource alone is proof enough of its merit. That's not the best logic. That's like if we were all a bunch of rich girls who decided to stop shopping and spending extravagant amounts of money, and you accused us of being spoiled for making that choice. Some don't have the luxury of choice, it's true. It doesn't make those who do and opt to go without their resources automatically "spoiled". Perhaps sometimes they are just smart or right....

 

I feel that choice is never choice until it is no longer manipulated by any one machine or system. I think most Western women are not given a real "choice".


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Vegetarian Spiritual wife to Joshua (HS sweetheart, together since 1999); mother of Eve (Dec 2003)  Cian (March 2009), and Sage (March 2011)! <--uc.jpg!
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