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#31 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie8681 View Post

Hi, I wanted to offer this site as a resource of a large sampling of healthy and unhealthy newborns: http://newborns.stanford.edu/PhotoGallery/ .  It shows just how subtle the difference can be, and how huge the "normal" spectrum really is.  When I look at it, I see just how difficult it can be sometimes to make an error on either side of the problem/no problem decision. 

Very interesting website thank you! I'm not even planning on having another LO anytime soon but it was still interesting to see the huge variation of what normal can be and the also the huge and subtle variations of what NOT normal is can be like.

 



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Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post

Thanks for your addition, Katie. I didn't find anything to indicate what you are saying, but I did find the site to be generally helpful and informative in some regards. Interestingly enough, I found it slightly supportive of some of my own beliefs about how medicine views newborns. Some of their generalizations were alarmist. But again, consider the source. Hey, they are running a business, after all. And they don't get paid if we don't trust them over us, so...

 

I would also like to add that numerous afflictions may ail babies of any age. Don't think after those usual few days in-hospital and you've signed those release forms that you're home free. Your baby could be six months old and come down with something suddenly, yet the signs could be too subtle for you to notice and you *may* not make it to the doctor in time. Just saying.

I found the website she linked to be pretty much what she described it as. Actually very interesting and informative.

Being contrary just because you think that birth is so sacred intuition trumps everything, including the reality that noticing signs of trouble in a newborn can be incredibly challenging even for professionals, doesn't make you right it just makes you look like you aren't open to reason...dogmatic as well.
 

 

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#32 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 05:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post


 

Very interesting website thank you! I'm not even planning on having another LO anytime soon but it was still interesting to see the huge variation of what normal can be and the also the huge and subtle variations of what NOT normal is can be like.

 



I found the website she linked to be pretty much what she described it as. Actually very interesting and informative.

Being contrary just because you think that birth is so sacred intuition trumps everything, including the reality that noticing signs of trouble in a newborn can be incredibly challenging even for professionals, doesn't make you right it just makes you look like you aren't open to reason...dogmatic as well.
 

 


I don't recall saying anything at all that would indicate such things of me. Why are you jumping to such conclusions? headscratch.gif

 


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#33 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post

Thanks for your addition, Katie. I didn't find anything to indicate what you are saying, but I did find the site to be generally helpful and informative in some regards. Interestingly enough, I found it slightly supportive of some of my own beliefs about how medicine views newborns. Some of their generalizations were alarmist. But again, consider the source. Hey, they are running a business, after all. And they don't get paid if we don't trust them over us, so...Jumping to conclusions is for people who have no basis for what they are saying, but you provided the basis for my comment by the bolded...You found the link she provided to NOT be a helpful tool to recognize that the variation of normal is VAST and the variation of not normal is VAST and BOTH are subtle much of the time... You also dismiss any medical information as people running a business when what Katie linked to were simply EXAMPLES of actual medical conditions and variations of normal in a newborn...Truly out for the money they are with that, providing it freely so that educated mamas can educate themselves furthereyesroll.gif

 

I would also like to add that numerous afflictions may ail babies of any age. Don't think after those usual few days in-hospital and you've signed those release forms that you're home free. Your baby could be six months old and come down with something suddenly, yet the signs could be too subtle for you to notice and you *may* not make it to the doctor in time. Just saying. You are right about this but it doesn't prove any point other than babies get sick at any age, it has nothing to do at all with being able to recognize subtle symptoms that are a precursor to some kind of distress or condition. "Just saying" is generally a phrase used by those who don't want to acknowledge that the point they are trying to make is actually pointless in relation to the topic at hand...For example, "I would also like to add the not only do babies of all age get sick but so do adults of all age!...Just saying"...

See what I mean?


I find it amusing you are so befuddled by the conclusions I've "jumped" too. Dogmatic....yes. You are of course, welcome to disagree as much as you like...

 

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#34 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 06:32 PM
 
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You've pointed out where I've disagreed with the effectiveness of her link, but that doesn't support what you said about me. headscratch.gif

 

Naturally I am skeptical of the medical importance behind birth, or I wouldn't be an advocate of UC... that's to be expected, isn't it?

 

In terms of being skeptical based on "the business of being born", I just think that people will do what is most profitable more often than not, and since birth is the number one reason to be in the hospital in this country, doesn't it only make sense that women are discouraged by that establishment from home birthing? I'm just saying. They aren't in the business of making women feel particularly competent. I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything, and I think even hospital birthers could agree with this basic principle. It's a business. They don't stay in business when we all know when they are not needed. They profit better if we stay fearful and doubtful of ourselves as birthing women and as new mothers of newborns.

 

My point about babies of all ages getting sick illustrates how we could all be panicked all our lives. In fact, why don't we live in hospitals? We should. That way the docs would always be right there just in case anything happened. <-- Because that is the logic that people use for favoring hospitals over "dangerous" and "selfish" choices such as homebirth or UC. It is the same logic we are attempting and heading to on this subtopic, meconium (hey look, I tied in the original subject again!). I'm showing you how that logic is faulty. And here I am spelling it out for you. And this is a smiley face --> smile.gif Oh look, a bird! Sorry, they don't have an emoticon for that.

 

Trying to correct me on "just saying" is a total red herring. Just sayin...

 

Thanks mum! Got any mo'?


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#35 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 06:41 PM
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You are welcome to disagree with my opinion, like I said I still think you're opinion on this particular topic is dogmatic.

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#36 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 07:05 PM
 
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While I am very opinionated and outspoken, I don't state things as facts unless they actually are. I never claim things are just because of some zany belief of have. Everything I say if founded on things worthy of consideration.


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#37 of 46 Old 05-20-2011, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post

While I am very opinionated and outspoken, I don't state things as facts unless they actually are. I never claim things are just because of some zany belief of have. Everything I say if founded on things worthy of consideration.

You are of course entitled to your opinion that your posts come across that way, and that you believe you are stating facts. 

Opinionated and outspoken are one thing, like I said my opinion stands that your posts are dogmatic without regard for the merit of other posts because it would threaten your beliefs...That is of course just my opinion and you are free to disagree. 

 

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#38 of 46 Old 07-05-2011, 05:37 PM
 
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edited

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#39 of 46 Old 07-06-2011, 07:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Devaskyla View Post

I notice that despite bolding it, savithny clearly didn't actually read what Elizabeth posted. If she had, she would have noticed that the part she bolded explicitly states "An infant who has an advanced degree of respiratory distress may exhibit additional signs, such 
as cyanosis, gasping, choking, apnea, and stridor.
"

 

Notice the word ADVANCED in there? That she then berated Elizabeth for not mentioning? And everyone is praising her for pointing out how dumb UC'ers are because supposedly Elizabeth didn't realize those are advanced signs despite the fact she put it in her post and sayithny then bolded it?

 

Sure seems to me like the anti-UC'ers are just grasping at things to make UC'ers look like they're idiots and in the process are ignoring basic reading comprehension skills.



You might want to go back and reread, because the quotation including the word "advanced" is not from Elizabeth's post.  It's from another source, and it's not something that Elizabeth included in her post.  Or at least that's how I read it...but I will freely acknowledge that my reading comprehension skills are far from perfect.  :)

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#40 of 46 Old 07-08-2011, 07:10 AM
 
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Just wanted to remind, meconium is not always a sign something is wrong.  It is "normal" in a breech positioning. winky.gif

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#41 of 46 Old 07-10-2011, 08:49 PM
 
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" I am arguing that if everybody took the approach to birth with the fear that you and several people who happen to support your view are, that UC would and should be completely off the table"

I am a UCer. I think this is a fantastic thread, and very helpful. Thanks to all those that left comments, as many are helpful. I don't see anything that indicates fear in any of the comments. What I see is a question asked, and answered to the best of the commentors abilities. Just because someone points out that the signs of distress are very subtle, and can be missed even by the most observant mama, doesn't make them full of fear. UC, to me, is about following your intuition and making the most informed choices possible. Knowing what can happen, and how severe it could be, is an important part of being informed.

Back to the OP-
I have two close friends that had babes with respiratory issues, one due to mec. One had a HB, and when her water broke and there was a good amount of mec, so the MW transferred her. She had a nice, all natural birth with her HB MW there, but the baby needed immediate resuscitation due to the mec. babe was intubated and went to the NICU for 2 weeks before being well enough to go home. It was good that she transferred, as the babe needed the help to stay alive. This is a good example of knowing when something is wrong and taking action, averting a crisis.

The other friend had a happy, normal, HB, and afterwards the MW checked over the babe, who looked and acted just fine, said all was well, and left. Several more hours later, mama fell asleep with her new babe sleeping near by. Her DH checked on them, and saw the sweet new babe was not breathing. 911 was called, they went to hospital, but she could not be revived. In retrospect, there were a several subtle signs that no one had noticed, not even the MW. This mama had 6 kids already, 5 were born at home, so it's not like she was inexperienced or her intuition was bad. The MW was not well trained, and failed to spot the subtle signs, and the mom- well, she was merely human. Tired after labor, and trusting all was well, she rested. AFAIK this was not due to mec, but is a good example of how things can be missed, by even the most dedicated mama.

I also know a few with light staining, and all the babes were fine. I don't know the details, but none required NICU.

It's wise to know what issues are a sign of impending crisis, and have an idea of what you will do if they happen. Everyone has a different idea of what UC is to them, but I personally like to know these things. My UC plan includes transfer for certain things, and that includes heavy mec. I accept that there are problems that I cannot fix, and want to be able to access help it's needed.
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#42 of 46 Old 07-10-2011, 09:37 PM
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It's also really helpful for the family to take neonatal resuscitation classes before the birth of the baby. i'd done it as part of my first aid training (which i needed to teach yoga out in public, and because I was working at a Y, they asked me to get all kinds of extended training, not this one, but I just included it anyway), and that was very informative.

 

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#43 of 46 Old 07-11-2011, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no5no5 View Post





You might want to go back and reread, because the quotation including the word "advanced" is not from Elizabeth's post.  It's from another source, and it's not something that Elizabeth included in her post.  Or at least that's how I read it...but I will freely acknowledge that my reading comprehension skills are far from perfect.  :)


Thank you, and you're exactly right.   Tthe quote that includes "advanced" came from a page describing the stages and symptoms of respiratory distress and failure in a newborn.  

 

ElizabethE's exact advice was:

 

 

Quote:
MAS can be dangerous but any attentive mother will see the signs of a problem in her baby. Difficulty breathing, strange noises, strange coloring (not to be mistaken with skin staining!)... a concerned mother would take her infant in to get checked out if she saw these types of signs. Then, if a baby truly does have MAS, they can be treated accordingly at the hospital/doctor for it just like any other hospital born baby. MAS would not kill your baby unless you are ignoring it and the signs for an extended period of time.

 

Which goes to the point on the other thread - if you did not, separately, go looking for the signs and symptoms of distress, but instead took this advice, you would think that those three things are symptoms that would leave you plenty of time to go seek treatment.   So - what MittensKittens and others are saying on the other thread is important -- there are a lot of people all over MDC (not just here) saying things with authority, and those things may or may not be true.   "I read that it was safe on the internet" is cold comfort when you learn too late that the person who posted it was wrong, and whether they were mistaken, gave incomplete information, or outright lied does not matter much.  And if it's cold comfort, it's even less well recieved as a defense if the law gets involved after the fact.


savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#44 of 46 Old 03-28-2012, 09:26 PM
 
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I know this is an old thread, but I just started reading in UC and keep going back, so I wanted to put in my 2 cents...

My first child was born breech and there was thick green meconium. My water had broken, and when I wiped, it came away green, looking like diarrhea. My first thought was "I didn't think I wiped that far back" - I didn't. Her bum was in the birth canal and with both legs up it was squeezed straight out of me - never got in the water. Just something to keep in mind with the breeches... smile.gif
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#45 of 46 Old 07-17-2012, 11:47 AM
 
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Meconium aspiration has been elusive for years, with doctors and scientists unable to predict which babies will get life threateneing MAS and which will have no side effects whatsoever.  Recently (last 5 yearsish) light has been shed on this.  If there is meconium in the water, baby will inhale it, and exhale it, as it does the water.  MAS is not instantly caused at birth because a baby inhales meconium.  Most babies that inhale it at birth, cough it back out on their own.  Meconium will deteriorate tissue, though.  It is those babies that are in meconium stained water for long periods of time, especially days, that develope MAS.  According to studies, MAS is the one specific incidence where mouth to mouth does not help as well as pure oxygen.  Thus I would want access to oxygen if MAS was a possibility and obviously would transfer to NICU as soon as possible. (MAS is scary even to doctors that believe they are all powerfull). 

Fortunantly, old meconium is a different color than new meconium - so risk for MAS can be seen as soon as meconium is seen.

As far as new meconium - ya, it can be a sign of distress, but it (according to what scientists now believe) isn't a risk factor for MAS.

Disclamer:  this is only stuff I've read - I'm not a scientist, dr., or midwife!

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#46 of 46 Old 07-20-2012, 07:27 PM
 
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Both of my UCs there was meconium stained fluid when my water broke. they were both fine and required no suctioning. S**t happens. 


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