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#1 of 123 Old 05-20-2011, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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There are some key sayings that go around natural birth circles:

 

"Trust birth!"

 

"Birth is as safe as life gets."

 

and other similar sayings.

 

I'm a bit confused about this particular UC forum at times.  It doesn't seem like there's as much a trusting and/or faithful view of birth here as I would have expected.  I know some moms choose UC because it helps them birth closer with God or their other spiritual centers.  I know some moms choose UC because they no longer trust CPMs/DEMs much less OBs and CNMs.  I know some mom choose UC because their options are limited.  These are only a few examples, but optimally . . . shouldn't it be about trusting ourselves and taking personal responsibility (and faith in God/deity/earth as applicable)?  Of course I'm not suggesting that anyone should ignore medical opinions from practitioners - I myself am seeing an OB and a CPM regularly.

 

Anyway, I know I'm poking the fire a bit with this topic, but I am very curious about this and what our community (this UC forum) really believes about birth.  I've found this forum to be a great source of information and encouragement, overall.  I'm just concerned about having my own preparations diffused and derailed by inflghting, finger pointing, and a lack of trust/faith in each other much less the birth process.

 

Am I misunderstanding something about UC?

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#2 of 123 Old 05-20-2011, 10:10 PM
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People come to UC for their own reasons.

 

For me, it is as you describe -- and mostly that I believed it was right for me. 

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#3 of 123 Old 05-21-2011, 10:05 AM
 
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Oh, I do like this, trusting birth. It's really the heart of why I am drawn to UC, because I have such faith in my body to grow a healthy child and to give birth to it, and faith in the communication between my and my baby's souls (hokey as that may sound!). Trust birth.

 

But I think that the present culture around birth is very focused on what can go wrong, and willing or not, we internalize these messages, so that, when we think of UC, our rational brains are continually asking us: what will I do if this happens? What if that happens? And of course everyone around us who knows our plans ask these questions too. I think it's not necessarily that we want to be negative about birth, but we're so cultured to it!

 

Trust and positivity are splendid messages, though, and I myself feel like this pregnancy is really about learning trust for me. Yes, know what to do if something goes wrong, but trust that it won't. Surely we could all do with much less negativity!

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#4 of 123 Old 05-21-2011, 12:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by labortrials View Post
shouldn't it be about trusting ourselves and taking personal responsibility (and faith in God/deity/earth as applicable)? 


That sums up my feelings about UC very well. 

 

I think this forum used to be more friendly and discussion-oriented. There were a lot of discussions about things like personal responsibility, trust, etc. where people really dug into the issues from many perspectives, though the tone was overall positive and supportive. In the past year or so though, and especially since the UA was whittled down to a stub, some anti-UCers seem to have started feeling like this forum needs their input. I think that has created a much tenser and conflict-ridden atmosphere than there used to be. At least I do not feel as safe baring all on this forum as I used to.

 

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#5 of 123 Old 05-21-2011, 01:21 PM
 
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I think this forum used to be more friendly and discussion-oriented. There were a lot of discussions about things like personal responsibility, trust, etc. where people really dug into the issues from many perspectives, though the tone was overall positive and supportive. In the past year or so though, and especially since the UA was whittled down to a stub, some anti-UCers seem to have started feeling like this forum needs their input. I think that has created a much tenser and conflict-ridden atmosphere than there used to be. At least I do not feel as safe baring all on this forum as I used to.

 


I agree. I have backed off a lot from this forum because of the negativity and harsh words - even from those who support UC!! I believe that if you cannot get your point across in a polite way, I will choose not to discuss sensitive issues with you. But that's just me - I know other people feel differently and like the heat of the argument so I guess it just depends on the person.

OP, my reasons for choosing UC are probably very different from the other folks around here. Although I can totally agree with the words "trust birth" it is not my main reason for birthing without an attendant. I am not driven to UC necessarily because I trust birth, though - I am drawn to it because I trust myself. I think there is a very vital difference. I am a nurse and have worked in both L&D and in an Ob/Gyn office - I have seen many births, many pregnancies - of all varying degrees of risk and normalcy. I have seen babies die, I have seen mamas die. I have seen women have awesome, fulfilling hospital birth experiences and horrible, traumatic ones. I have far more first hand knowledge of birth than most folks who haven't worked in the field, and because of that, I am acutely aware of complications - both during pregnancy and birth - and would NEVER hesitate to contact a doctor or hospital if I feel intervention was needed. In fact, I would probably be more likely to transfer to a hospital than most UCers because it is not a scary, evil place for me. (Not that I would ever want to work there again, lol!)

That being said, I do not ever judge or encourage others with regards to their birth decisions. It is a private and personal decision, made between a mama and her partner. All I can do is offer up my story and continue to have an open mind with regards to the birth choices of everyone here on MDC and IRL. I always feel uncomfortable with the "should I UC" threads because I never know what to say - I mean, it is just not my place to offer up advice in tenuous situations - at least not on an internet forum.

I think I explained myself clearly, but keep in mind I am 35 weeks along and haven't slept in days because I pee all night long. Sigh...

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#6 of 123 Old 05-21-2011, 01:51 PM
 
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Perhaps birth is as safe as life gets, but as I've learned in the last three decades - that is not all that safe at all. I am not sure what to think of the motto "trust birth", because I believe that birth is relatively safe most of the time, and is not an illness. I am convinced that man-made interventions don't make birth safer, but mess things up where they were previously fine in most cases. I chose UC for many reasons, and would (will) certainly do it again. But on the other hand, all kinds of things can go wrong, and "trust birth" seems to imply that you do not need to prepare for that possibility. I believe in preparing best I can, so it is more likely I can handle whatever unexpected thing life or birth throws at me.

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#7 of 123 Old 05-21-2011, 04:03 PM
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I agree, as well, in regards to tone.

 

It's actually at issue in the OP.

 

As I've been a part of this community for many years (like, 8?), and learning about UC for slightly longer (before finding this site), I have seen the community really grow, and as it does, the reasons why women choose to UC are ever more diverse. And, I do not believe that there is one right way or reason to UC. 

 

The issues that I see arising out of this is a great deal of criticism of which women are 'ok' to UC -- so we can support them -- and which are not  -- so that we can advise them to not UC. All of this, of course, to avoid criticism of UC, and avoid the blame that might come from supporting a woman who freely chooses to UC, even though it wouldn't be a choice that I, or many other women, would make in the same circumstance. 

 

I personally see the UC movement as a movement that supports women's free choice and taking responsibility for the outcomes of their choices onto themselves entirely. No one is to blame should something go wrong -- even a mother. This is the antithesis of "CYA" attitude by not supporting women whom you believe "shouldn't" UC for whatever reasons that you are evaluating her. 

 

This CYA behavior/attitude really undermines the philosophical basis of UC -- which is freedom to choose the care you want, and the support to choose medical care or not. The problem is, many women are afraid to support a woman who doesn't want care, for fear of blame.

 

 

I've always been one to support the "riskiest" women on a board -- with a great deal of flack -- because I believe that if a woman is given full support in her process of choosing, she will choose rightly for herself in every circumstance. I believe in a woman's inherent capacity to make good decisions for herself (and her infant, her family, her community). I may not like or agree with her decision, but I ultimately support her decision.

 

End of the day, no one must UC, and no one need past any specific tests to UC. It is simply a free choice of every woman. She just must decide what it is she wants to do. 

 

 

 

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#8 of 123 Old 05-21-2011, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Great responses, gals.  Thank you very much.  I'm fairly new round these here parts and oblivious to the past politics.  It just 'seems' like a somewhat unhealthy climate right now, so I hope the positive energy and love of babies and mamas and families will overwhelm the anti-whateverness I've seen here lately! :)

 

And Tracy, I feel ya.  I try to NOT get up to pee . . . and then I lie awake uncomfortable or sleep even more poorly . . . and finally get up . . . and then kick myself for not getting up sooner to pee.  Rinse and repeat.  You'd think I'd learn, but no.  LoL!


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#9 of 123 Old 05-22-2011, 03:22 PM
 
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Some stuff in blue, in response, Tracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracymom1 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusarctos View Post



 

 

I think this forum used to be more friendly and discussion-oriented. There were a lot of discussions about things like personal responsibility, trust, etc. where people really dug into the issues from many perspectives, though the tone was overall positive and supportive. In the past year or so though, and especially since the UA was whittled down to a stub, some anti-UCers seem to have started feeling like this forum needs their input. I think that has created a much tenser and conflict-ridden atmosphere than there used to be. At least I do not feel as safe baring all on this forum as I used to.

 




I agree. I have backed off a lot from this forum because of the negativity and harsh words - even from those who support UC!! I believe that if you cannot get your point across in a polite way, I will choose not to discuss sensitive issues with you. But that's just me - I know other people feel differently and like the heat of the argument so I guess it just depends on the person.

 

Tracy-- I understand that you probably feel a sense of being at odds with me. nod.gif

I am not the type of person to back down, and it's not that I like the heat of an argument. It's that I'm not afraid to tell people what they need to hear. It's that I'm extraordinarily passionate and sometimes I feel there are enough people who are backing down from an argument. And, I have nothing against people who choose to step away from arguments or confrontation. They have good reasons, and maybe they don't feel the need to engage at all. At the same time, outspoken people are not always uncalled for-- we have a place, too. Neutrality is sometimes not our friend. Sometimes I feel someone like me is needed to step in to the "mess" of it and be loud and heard. My intention was never to offend you or anyone else with peace on their minds, but sometimes things get down and dirty, and I'm willing to fight the good fight. I find it not genuine of me to play along under the pretense that everything is fine if it's not fine. It's just not in my personality to be quiet when something isn't right. I'm not trying to be "negative"-- I have this need to stand up for what's right, even if it causes me to lose favor with people who could otherwise like me. To me, that's not negative, it's positive. :) So, I understand if this will cause us to butt heads, but I can't not listen to my heart on that.

OP, my reasons for choosing UC are probably very different from the other folks around here. Although I can totally agree with the words "trust birth" it is not my main reason for birthing without an attendant. I am not driven to UC necessarily because I trust birth, though - I am drawn to it because I trust myself. I think there is a very vital difference. I am a nurse and have worked in both L&D and in an Ob/Gyn office - I have seen many births, many pregnancies - of all varying degrees of risk and normalcy. I have seen babies die, I have seen mamas die. I have seen women have awesome, fulfilling hospital birth experiences and horrible, traumatic ones. I have far more first hand knowledge of birth than most folks who haven't worked in the field, and because of that, I am acutely aware of complications - both during pregnancy and birth - and would NEVER hesitate to contact a doctor or hospital if I feel intervention was needed. In fact, I would probably be more likely to transfer to a hospital than most UCers because it is not a scary, evil place for me. (Not that I would ever want to work there again, lol!)

That being said, I do not ever judge or encourage others with regards to their birth decisions. It is a private and personal decision, made between a mama and her partner. All I can do is offer up my story and continue to have an open mind with regards to the birth choices of everyone here on MDC and IRL. I always feel uncomfortable with the "should I UC" threads because I never know what to say - I mean, it is just not my place to offer up advice in tenuous situations - at least not on an internet forum. Not to be contrary because I do mean you no disrespect-- that seems to leave precious little to discuss, doesn't it? I mean, if we aren't here to be open about our opinions, there will be a lot of closed doors and closed discussions, no? Unless I misunderstand you. I mean, I'm not here to judge the birth decisions of others either... but I am here to talk seriously about UC and offer up my support and encouragement to mothers who are clearly hoping it can be found here. To me, "should I UC" is really just someone fishing, trying to get people to tell them the reasons why it is a good choice. None of us here are offering "medical advice" though... but hell, this is a "medical" topic. There's going to appear to be so much gray area there.

I think I explained myself clearly, but keep in mind I am 35 weeks along and haven't slept in days because I pee all night long. Sigh...
 

Anyway, much love to you, mama, as you approach the end of your pregnancy. Rainbow.gif
 

 


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#10 of 123 Old 05-22-2011, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Heh heh, Elizabeth.  You remind me of one of my friends on another board.  She'll get me all pissed off and thinking about stuff, and then I calm down and get back in gear.  She doesn't sugar coat a THING, and at times it's a bit 'in your face;' and she's completely unapologetic about it (which makes no sense to 'eager to please' me).  But you're right, even the more outspoken 'radicals' are necessary voices in the mix.

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#11 of 123 Old 05-23-2011, 12:58 AM
 
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Not to be contrary because I do mean you no disrespect-- that seems to leave precious little to discuss, doesn't it? I mean, if we aren't here to be open about our opinions, there will be a lot of closed doors and closed discussions, no? Unless I misunderstand you. I mean, I'm not here to judge the birth decisions of others either... but I am here to talk seriously about UC and offer up my support and encouragement to mothers who are clearly hoping it can be found here. To me, "should I UC" is really just someone fishing, trying to get people to tell them the reasons why it is a good choice. None of us here are offering "medical advice" though... but hell, this is a "medical" topic. There's going to appear to be so much gray area there.

Not necessarily. Comments like "You shouldn't UC because you are having a VBA3C/ have triplets/don't sound very spiritual/your husband isn't on board" is perhaps rude. You could also say, "in your situation I would/wouldn't..." And disagreeing with someone's decision might be disrespectful, because it was their decision, but there is nothing disrespectful about discussions on general topics. "Which herbs work best for PPH", "Does eating your placenta have any benefits?", "VBAC - chances of uterine rupture" etc.

 

There is a difference between offering medical advice and discussing topics that could be seen as medical, and there is a difference between discussing topics or lecturing someone on what to do. duck.gif

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#12 of 123 Old 05-23-2011, 02:43 AM
 
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I hope the positive energy and love of babies and mamas and families will overwhelm the anti-whateverness I've seen here lately! :)

  

 

I really like this and I hope so too. Reminds me of the M L King quote about how only love can drive out hate.


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Perhaps birth is as safe as life gets, but as I've learned in the last three decades - that is not all that safe at all.

 

It's interesting you said this because, for me, the quote "birth is as safe as life gets" very much contains the fact that life itself is not guaranteed or "safe" - we're all going to die, and many of us will in some untimely or catastrophic manner. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make smart decisions about safety, nor does it mean we should live in constant fear. I take the quote as saying something like that about birth: as it is just another normal part of life, it is ultimately uncontrollable and unpredictable, though things for the most part go well if we leave them alone. Therefore, there is no reason to treat or fear life/birth as an emergency unless one actually occurs. We can of course do things to increase our possibility of staying safe, but beyond a certain reasonable point we just have to surrender and let ourselves be alive, complete with the possibility of death at any moment. To try to control and predict too much in life hinders us and doesn't do any good in the end anyway.

 

Does that make any sense at all? I feel like I'm not as good at articulating this kind of thought process as I used to be.


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#14 of 123 Old 05-23-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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I am having trouble quoting, so, Elizabeth:
Just because I choose not to take part in controversial or heated discussions doesn't mean I don't think they should happen. For me, MDC is all about feeling happy, getting support and giving kindness. For others, I am sure it means very different things. I am in no way an advocate for anything other than love and tolerance - thus I do not feel comfortable offering up advice that could be taken as anything else. When mamas come on here searching for affirmation on their birth choices or needing help figuring things out, I always give the same advice - old fashioned soul searching. It always works for me, and can't ever hurt.

I am always, always accepting of others and their birth choices - regardless of how much or little intervention they have. I simply don't see UC as the be all and end all of birth. I had a necessary c-section with my first because of repeated episodes of heavy bleeding and PTL due to a condition called vasa previa. DS would have died if I had attempted a vaginal birth. Period. His cord was in my cervix and it kept bleeding and bleeding for months - starting at 22 weeks gestation. It was a harrowing and eye-opening experience and I will never forget how grateful I was for the gift of modern medicine. Every time I see his sweet face, I am reminded of what a miracle he truly is.

So I have been on both sides of the fence - the most intervention to the least. I think this is probably why I tend to back off of the tough subjects around here.

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ElizabethE:

I have a question for you specifically. If a baby dies during a UC, or becomes very ill, is it because the momma didn't trust herself enough? Don't you think the very thing you encourage young mothers to rely on for decision-making swings both ways? If it all goes wrong, a momma doesn't recognize grunting (for example) and it turns into full blown respiratory distress, is it because she didn't trust birth enough?

 

 

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ElizabethE:

I have a question for you specifically. If a baby dies during a UC, or becomes very ill, is it because the momma didn't trust herself enough? Don't you think the very thing you encourage young mothers to rely on for decision-making swings both ways? If it all goes wrong, a momma doesn't recognize grunting (for example) and it turns into full blown respiratory distress, is it because she didn't trust birth enough?

 

 


This was not directed at me, and I'm also curious what ElizabethE will say. But I'll give my opinion anyway - I believe, and sincerely hope, that this line of thinking does not actually exist, other than in online discussions about how UC opponents perceive UC-ers to be. I'll go one step further and say that I think that part of the responsibility of UC specifically is to learn about the warning signs. Sometimes, bad outcomes happen when a mother trusts her body too much rather than not enough. Oh, and before you mention it, folks who give birth unassisted come in all shapes, sizes, and mental abilities... but most of us are quite capable of rational thought!

 


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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursusarctos View Post



 

 

It's interesting you said this because, for me, the quote "birth is as safe as life gets" very much contains the fact that life itself is not guaranteed or "safe" - we're all going to die, and many of us will in some untimely or catastrophic manner. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make smart decisions about safety, nor does it mean we should live in constant fear. I take the quote as saying something like that about birth: as it is just another normal part of life, it is ultimately uncontrollable and unpredictable, though things for the most part go well if we leave them alone. Therefore, there is no reason to treat or fear life/birth as an emergency unless one actually occurs. We can of course do things to increase our possibility of staying safe, but beyond a certain reasonable point we just have to surrender and let ourselves be alive, complete with the possibility of death at any moment. To try to control and predict too much in life hinders us and doesn't do any good in the end anyway.

 

Does that make any sense at all? I feel like I'm not as good at articulating this kind of thought process as I used to be.


Agreed. That is how I take the quote as well, but I also guess your views on how safe life is are defined by your experiences :).

 


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Thanks for the response. I agree. It just seems some of the more "extreme" women on this site have the view that intuition and love will see an emergency through. I just don't believe that and I wonder how someone like ElizabethE would answer to it. If something happens in a home birth or UC, whose fault is it? I sense that ElizabethE would place blame on not being positive enough. Ot trusting enough. Or open enough. Isn't that just placing blame on the mother? Isn't it downright dangerous to suggest that intuition should trump medical training and equipment?

 

How would she reconcile my friends dead baby? 

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#19 of 123 Old 05-23-2011, 08:35 AM
 
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Labortrials-  I like this topic :)  Mostly I like that you pointed out some important characteristics of this forum.  I too, would love to feel a strong sense of trust, communication, understanding, kindness...just positive support and encouragement as each of us finds the right path unique to our own circumstances.  

 

Tracy- I enjoy reading your posts, pretty lighthearted and uplifting :)  I noticed my first birth was just weeks before your miracle, gabe.  I remember immediately feeling like I had just witnessed a miracle the moment I saw that baby...It was like...I literally felt like the world just changed!  Which it did, of course :)  Just as it does everytime a new little person arrives! Or, unfortunately, everytime a new little one leaves just as they were coming..(sorry for the sad note, but I felt I should give credit to the heartache as well)  Anyways, It's refreshing to hear of a positive c'section story like yours.  I can see how you definitely have been on 'both sides of the fence' regarding medicalized birth/natural unintervened birth.  You referred to it as "the most intervention to the least" but maybe it's difficult to say what, in fact, is the most intervention a woman might receive?  At any rate I'm glad to hear that your interventions were completely "necessary" and in fact improved the outcome (as opposed to the sad outcome you would have been faced with had you not received the interventions).  It sounds like both of your births were on the "necessary" side of the fence, as in, you received all that was needed but you were done no harm by unneccessary interventions...is that right?  I've been on the other side of the fence with much intervention that did me and my ds1(my second birth-also close to your homebirth) physical trauma.  I believe my son and I would have faired much better if only our Dr. had not been in a rush-i'm not saying he intended to hurt us, only that if he had left us alone that we would have come away healthy and able to bond rather than...well not.  As someone who worked in that setting you might think, "oh another one who doesn't THINK it was necessary.."  but then maybe not.  You actually might have seen what I'm talking about in your experience working in L&D/ob/GYN office... did you ever feel woman were given unnecessary procedures that solved nothing but caused harm? 

 

Anyways i'm sorry if that seemed completely off topic to your original post labortrials.  BUT I felt that the strong difference in experience/perspective among the wonderful mamas here is at the heart of many of the "inflghting, finger pointing" etc.  I do believe when there is non supporting comments (which almost always cause negative feelings) it usually comes from a place of trying [based on our own unique experiences] to help others avoid the mishaps we were or weren't successful in avoiding ourselves. .  

 

I think being understanding of this gap between our personal experience and another's would certainly help increase the peace in our discussions, no?  

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Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post

Not necessarily. Comments like "You shouldn't UC because you are having a VBA3C/ have triplets/don't sound very spiritual/your husband isn't on board" is perhaps rude. You could also say, "in your situation I would/wouldn't..."


Totally agree.  I've had my UC desires questioned here before in a way that was really not helpful.  It was a setback for me - not that the mama meant any harm.  I think the way we 'speak' to eachother is VERY important.
 

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Does that make any sense at all? I feel like I'm not as good at articulating this kind of thought process as I used to be.


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I am always, always accepting of others and their birth choices - regardless of how much or little intervention they have. I simply don't see UC as the be all and end all of birth. I had a necessary c-section with my first because of repeated episodes of heavy bleeding and PTL due to a condition called vasa previa. DS would have died if I had attempted a vaginal birth. Period. His cord was in my cervix and it kept bleeding and bleeding for months - starting at 22 weeks gestation. It was a harrowing and eye-opening experience and I will never forget how grateful I was for the gift of modern medicine. Every time I see his sweet face, I am reminded of what a miracle he truly is.

So I have been on both sides of the fence - the most intervention to the least. I think this is probably why I tend to back off of the tough subjects around here.
 


How scary!! I think it's wonderful that you're still open to and supportive of UC after an experience like that.  OTOH, every pregnancy/birth is different with its own somewhat unknown levels of safety and risk.  I've had tons of intervention too, but I wouldn't be here today had I not walked this path.

 

And I don't think you have to justify your desire (and style) to back off the tough subjects.  Sometimes a mama is really just here to vent and doesn't even ask for our advice, YK?!
 

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Agreed. That is how I take the quote as well, but I also guess your views on how safe life is are defined by your experiences :).

 


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Thanks for the response. I agree. It just seems some of the more "extreme" women on this site have the view that intuition and love will see an emergency through. I just don't believe that and I wonder how someone like ElizabethE would answer to it. If something happens in a home birth or UC, whose fault is it? I sense that ElizabethE would place blame on not being positive enough. Ot trusting enough. Or open enough. Isn't that just placing blame on the mother? Isn't it downright dangerous to suggest that intuition should trump medical training and equipment?

 

How would she reconcile my friends dead baby? 


I really think you're reaching here.  This is not my read on her at all.  JMO and JME. 
 

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I do believe when there is non supporting comments (which almost always cause negative feelings) it usually comes from a place of trying [based on our own unique experiences] to help others avoid the mishaps we were or weren't successful in avoiding ourselves. .  

 

I think being understanding of this gap between our personal experience and another's would certainly help increase the peace in our discussions, no?  


Oooo, very good.  I hadn't really thought about that.  Thanks for opening my mind and heart to this possibility.
 

 

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ElizabethE:

I have a question for you specifically. If a baby dies during a UC, or becomes very ill, is it because the momma didn't trust herself enough? Don't you think the very thing you encourage young mothers to rely on for decision-making swings both ways? If it all goes wrong, a momma doesn't recognize grunting (for example) and it turns into full blown respiratory distress, is it because she didn't trust birth enough?

 

 

 

I'm also not the one to whom this is addressed, but I'm probably fairly close to Elizabeth's camp, and so I will also answer. :)

 

As I wrote before, I support women's *choices*. I believe that women have the capacity to make awesome choices for themselves and their babies. I believe that -- in most cases -- intuition and love will encourage a woman to get help when she needs it. In addition, our unconditional support of her as a human being with the capacity to make a good decision for herself will also encourage her to get help when she needs it. 

 

This will, in most cases, circumvent most negative consequences that can be prevented. Most women will seek help for themselves and their child. 

 

That being said, some circumstances cannot be prevented -- whether a woman is UCing or has full medical care at her disposal. At the end of the day, death and injury happens in birth. It happens in hospitals, birthing centers, home births, and UCs. No amount of anything is going to prevent it form happening on occasion.

 

No one is to blame when this happens, nor is it due to a fault or lack on anyone's part. It just happens. It is tragic that it is so, but it is so.

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Heh heh, Elizabeth.  You remind me of one of my friends on another board.  She'll get me all pissed off and thinking about stuff, and then I calm down and get back in gear.  She doesn't sugar coat a THING, and at times it's a bit 'in your face;' and she's completely unapologetic about it (which makes no sense to 'eager to please' me).  But you're right, even the more outspoken 'radicals' are necessary voices in the mix.


I don't mean to be so "in your face". I'm actually a bit more reserved and subdued in person. :) Unless I get comfortable or fired up... >:)

 


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ElizabethE:

I have a question for you specifically. If a baby dies during a UC, or becomes very ill, is it because the momma didn't trust herself enough? My gut reaction to that is "of course not! **** happens." Then I thought, well, when a baby dies in a hospital, the pros aren't always blameless... so what of that, to you? Is that just how it goes? Is that an acceptable loss from not trusting ourselves/birth?

 

Then I thought that there ARE possibilities where a fearful mother may have a chain reaction occur in her birth that results in a tragedy. In that case, it could be argued that she "didn't trust birth enough". I think that's what you wanted me to say. I'm not a person who that tells people that they can just believe and will anything into existence, and that if it didn't come true, they didn't wish hard enough-- but I am aware of a cause and effect between a mother's panic/fear state and how her labor progresses and results.

 

Don't you think the very thing you encourage young mothers to rely on for decision-making swings both ways? If it all goes wrong, a momma doesn't recognize grunting (for example) and it turns into full blown respiratory distress, is it because she didn't trust birth enough?

 

 

I think the problem here with people who take issue with me is, they completely misunderstand me-- where I'm coming from, the total picture, etc. It's far more fun to generalize me and my statements rather than trying to read them word for word, and see me as an individual. I've been misquoted, misrepresented, and blamed for things in which I never even took part in the conversations.

 

As an example of what you are asking about, if my intuition told me to go to the hospital, I would, and I wouldn't beat myself up over it. I encourage all mothers to do the same. But, I truly hope that people recognize the difference between their intuition and just plain fear. That is the bubble I am hoping to burst here. A lot of women have to get over that "hump" of still being generally fearful and apprehensive about birth. Once they have truly conquered that, listening to intuition tell you to go to the hospital would be far easier to do.

 

In the event of the favorite "grunting" topic as of late, I don't think that has so much to do with trusting birth (well, maybe indirectly) as it has to do with trusting your maternal nature and instinct. If you feel there is something to fear, by all means seek someone else's help. If I had even the slightest notion that my baby were not totally normal and healthy, that some unknown was wrong with it, I would seek a doctor. If you truly think you're in trouble and somebody else knows better, go for it! I think the problem with the "guests" here is that they are uncomfortable with just how often we UCers will not feel like we need outside help. If it's outside of your comfort zone, I just think it should be gotten over. We are the ones who have to live with it, not you.
 

 


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Thanks for the response. I agree. It just seems some of the more "extreme" women on this site have the view that intuition and love will see an emergency through. I'll address this, below. I just don't believe that and I wonder how someone like ElizabethE would answer to it. If something happens in a home birth or UC, whose fault is it? That varies (duh?). I sense that ElizabethE would place blame on not being positive enough. Then you've completely misunderstood me. Ot trusting enough. Or open enough. Isn't that just placing blame on the mother? Yeah, and that's not my philosophy. I'm not about blame, but I am about responsibility and accountability. What that means to me is that I will do all I can within my power, and if that is exhausted, I will move on to Plan B. But I call the shots and make the choices. If a fatality occurs whether I made the choice to be at home or at a hospital, it was still always me who made the choice, and no matter what, I will have to live with that. If my baby had died in the hospital, I wouldn't be to "blame", but I could not remove my responsibility of the choices I made just because a doctor oversaw it. Dig? So, I have no illusions about that and my role in birth, and I am not comfortable with putting it in someone else's hands unless I feel it is totally necessary (say like, a truly warranted surgery, for example).  Isn't it downright dangerous to suggest that intuition should trump medical training and equipment? Only if it's misguided "intuition", or an across the board belief. There's exceptions to every rule and I'm open to that.

 

How would she reconcile my friends dead baby? How would I even know what happened to your friend? Even if I did, why would I speak to you on my opinions of it? You don't want me, you want to talk it out in therapy. That's a very angry question. I'm not the enemy, here. Homebirth is not the enemy. I didn't hurt your friend and I didn't invent homebirth, and it's not my fault if my story ended up being different from hers. I don't think singling me out is going to resolve anything for anyone.


I believe in intuition and I believe in love and I even believe in miracles. I believe in things you can't see right in front of your face. But they are not the only thing to rely upon (IMHO). There are lots of uncertainties in life and as much as we may put our faith in any concept or any deity, life throws us curve balls all the time and quite honestly, most of us will not truly understand all the reasons why every single event happens to us. We have to be prepared for the unexpected because of that. We have to know how to accept it, or how to manipulate the situation wherever possible, for the better. I have never told everyone that love would get them through everything and be the only answer. I'm a very practical person. While most UC mamas are recommending Gaskin, I'm recommending Emergency Childbirth. Neither one is superior to the other, and they serve very different and useful purposes. I find that if a woman feels technically prepared for all scenarios she can imagine, and has emergency plans in place for everything, the moral support and feel-good emotional stuff will just be icing on the cake to help motivate her and empower her.

 

HTH.

 


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I missed this before:

 

 

Quote:
Isn't it downright dangerous to suggest that intuition should trump medical training and equipment?

 

 

I think that women that continue to ask this type a question may not be well-suited to homebirth with a trained professional much less UC.  I find a particularly odd question on a UC support forum.  It seems to me like a leading question for a debate.


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...In the event of the favorite "grunting" topic as of late, I don't think that has so much to do with trusting birth (well, maybe indirectly) as it has to do with trusting your maternal nature and instinct. If you feel there is something to fear, by all means seek someone else's help. If I had even the slightest notion that my baby were not totally normal and healthy, that some unknown was wrong with it, I would seek a doctor. If you truly think you're in trouble and somebody else knows better, go for it! I think the problem with the "guests" here is that they are uncomfortable with just how often we UCers will not feel like we need outside help. If it's outside of your comfort zone, I just think it should be gotten over. We are the ones who have to live with it, not you.

 

 


Here's where you are losing me. I am really, truly trying to understand your perspective. I feel like there are times when someone wouldn't realize that their baby was "not totally normal and healthy" in time to get help. You seem to feel that a mother always knows when something isn't right and in my experience that is simply not the case.

 

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#27 of 123 Old 05-25-2011, 12:13 AM
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In my experience, it is the case.

 

How many stories have you read/heard where a mother "knew" something was wrong, but no doctor would listen or could find something, and she finally found someone who DID find something, and with just enough time to get treatment? I have heard many, and I have seen this over and over.

 

I have also had the experience where the situation was serious -- a heart defect -- and a UC mama noticed/knew within an hour of the birth that her baby needed help. She went to get that help as soon as she realized it was time to go. Her doctor saw her right away, and sent the baby to the hospital for a specialist to have a listen. Her doctor suspected a certain heart condition, and it was verified at the hospital. later that day, the baby had surgery, and everything was fine. The mother didn't know to look for the heart defect, btu she just knew something wasn't right. And it's not like the defect runs in her family AND she had ultrasounds throughout and they did not pick up on this heart defect. She just "knew."

 

I think that if a mom feels any concern about her baby, she's going to seek help.

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#28 of 123 Old 05-25-2011, 12:22 AM
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Also, no one said that intuition should "trump" medical training and equipment, but rather that intution can help a woman determine when and whether medical training and equipment is necessary for her or her child.

 

We do not categorically eschew medical training or equipment, nor do I, personally, take issue with it. I only take issue with it's misuse and/or overuse. Much of medicalized birthing is not evidence based, it's based in philosophy, policy and law. When it is used but not necessary, it is more likely to cause harm than good, which is the antithesis of the very purpose of the medicine and the machines. When it is used unnecessarily, a finite resource is not adequately distributed, such that women who do need the care may not have adequate access -- affecting them and their children. 

 

There are times when medical training and machines are necessary, and a mother is very likely to know when this is before anyone else is. :) And honestly, a LOT of UCers use medical training and machines throughout their pregnancies to help facilitate their process, and wouldn't hesitate to use one should they feel it is necessary.

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Also, no one said that intuition should "trump" medical training and equipment, but rather that intution can help a woman determine when and whether medical training and equipment is necessary for her or her child.

 

We do not categorically eschew medical training or equipment, nor do I, personally, take issue with it. I only take issue with it's misuse and/or overuse. Much of medicalized birthing is not evidence based, it's based in philosophy, policy and law. When it is used but not necessary, it is more likely to cause harm than good, which is the antithesis of the very purpose of the medicine and the machines. When it is used unnecessarily, a finite resource is not adequately distributed, such that women who do need the care may not have adequate access -- affecting them and their children. 

 

There are times when medical training and machines are necessary, and a mother is very likely to know when this is before anyone else is. :) And honestly, a LOT of UCers use medical training and machines throughout their pregnancies to help facilitate their process, and wouldn't hesitate to use one should they feel it is necessary.


clap.gif
 

I have to say, I have read many, many more stories where the mother *knew* something was wrong before the midwife or doctor picked up on it than stories where medical technology or expertise detected a problem out of the blue and saved the day. Not that the latter doesn't happen, but it seems to be far less common. I personally feel *least* safe putting my trust in someone other than myself, no matter how educated or experienced, to detect problems that might arise. I have just read way too many stories where the care provider discounted or ignored the mother's instincts, trusting their own external evaluation instead, with bad results. Even if I did birth with an attendant, it would be so that they could be around to help if *I* detected a problem. I simply do not trust them to do it for me, so I would definitely be "on" regardless of how much I was monitered from the outside. 

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#30 of 123 Old 05-25-2011, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree with these last 2 posts.  I think I may have used language similar to the 'intuition trumping medical-ism,' but it was in a completely different context on a different thread.

 

I'm not sure if I would 'know' something was wrong or not.  But I'm not sure that's really even the point or has anything to do with trusting birth or being prepared/capable in handling emergency situations from home.


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