Did you tell your OB that you were going to UC? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 57 Old 05-29-2011, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Im going to have concurrent care, and my first appointment isnt for a few weeks, but Im wondering if I should tell my OB that we plan to UC. Currently, we are not planning to tell family because I think they would freak out. It seems like it would be really dishonest to allow my OB to think that she is going to deliver a baby that we are pretty sure that she isnt going to deliver. I do like her a lot, but I have heard that if your OB knows you are going to UC sometimes they make a bigger deal of a small issue to make you feel like you are more high risk and try to scare you out of it.

Any suggestions?
If you had concurrent care, did you tell your OB your plan?

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#2 of 57 Old 05-29-2011, 09:36 PM
 
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If it were me, yes, I would tell my OB my plans. Of course, I told my midwives and then they decided they could no longer see me...

 

I don't judge people who pull the "oops", though. I just prefer honesty. It was good for me in the end... it encouraged me to be much more self sufficient and far less reliant on medical care from others. And in the end, it all worked out. I actually did even find an OB who was willing to see me (when the midwives would not!), but just never went in to him since I was already almost done with my pregnancy, anyway.

 

I do agree with not telling your family.

 

I would definitely be prepared for the OB to make bigger deals of things. Even a well meaning OB who seems supportive of you... their field of training just handles birth from such a completely different angle, your ideas would be not matching at all with what they feel is best. They will undoubtedly be looking for any potential problems they can find (it's kind of just what they do). In that case, you'd either need to put your foot down wherever you disagree, or stop receiving their care. My concern with that, however, is that if you get the wrong OB who gets very passionate about your situation, they may interfere somehow. Being respected and a doctor and someone who has all your sensitive information and medical files on hand, my concern is this leaves you particular vulnerable to whatever.

 

And, I can't forget about the Florida mom sentenced to bed rest when she told her doc she wanted a second opinion. (She went on to miscarry, anyway).

 

So..... hmm, there is really a lot to think about.


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#3 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I worry about the OB getting passionate about my situation as well. I live in a small place, and there are really only about 5 OB's to choose from. Im lucky that one of them is an import from out of town and is really supportive of natural childbirth. She has a CNM at her practice, and at her old practice in St. Louis, she had a doula in her office as well. I really like her, and I hope I can trust her with the information. Do you think I should tell her at our first appointment (she was my OB last time, so its not a meet and greet) or wait until further along in the pregnancy?

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#4 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 12:36 PM
 
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If it were me, Holly, I would definitely feel her out first. Get to know her a little better before you make the choice one way or the other. Besides, you have time. No rush.


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#5 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 12:37 PM
 
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Oh wait.... my bad. You said it's not a meet and greet. What do you think of her now? I mean, you seem to like her, so... I don't know. You already know her, yet you seem hesitant. To me, that says something.


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#6 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 12:42 PM
 
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I did tell my OB I was having a homebirth, but not that I was having a UC. I saw her three times during my pregnancy, and because state-employed OBs are horribly corrupt and seeing one requires a ton of bureaucracy, seeing an OB with a private office through pregnancy and then giving birth in a state hospital is very common here.

 

If I were in your situation, I would not risk telling the OB outright that you are planning a UC. I would, however, ask them how they felt about precipitous births and having all options covered. I might lie and say I had a history of fast labors. (Well, not a lie anymore, my second labor only lasted two hours!)

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#7 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I cant really lie to her about anything. She was my OB last time too, so she knows exactly how my labor went. She also knows that I am super into natural childbirth, and that I was a PIA for the hospital to deal with. Basically, they had to break every single protocol for me to birth there. And she made sure that it was set up to work that way. She made sure that no one ever asked me if I wanted an epi and that all of the nurses had reviewed my birth plan before I came into the hospital. I just think that regardless of how awesome she is, an OB is an OB , right? They've gone to school and learned about exactly why every woman should give birth in a hospital. So, I just cant imagine any OB being like , "Oh, cool you are having a UC. youll be fine." I guess Im really just afraid that if she knows that Im planning a UC she will stress me out about every little problem that might come up. And I DO trust her, so I think if she flat out told me "Hey, you really shouldnt do this because of xyz high risk factor," it would affect my decision for sure.


Also, Im trying not to be in the habit of lying to my hcp's, but it seems like its just harder and harder to tell the truth the more I try and take control of our own health.
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#8 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 05:01 PM
 
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This is def something I would keep to myself.  No matter how much you like or trust an OB they are still bound by protocols and insurance - meaning generally their first and foremost thought is their business.   You don't have to tell her anything about your birth plans - especially at the first appointment.   I went the honesty route (as in I am NOT having a repeat csec) and had to go through 4 different dr.s  I outright lied to the last dr, but finally got a blood test and the proof of doctor prenatal care should I need it.

You want your OB for prenatal care, not for your birth so why involve her at all in that aspect?  One does not always have to lead to the other.

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#9 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 05:12 PM
 
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 I plan on keeping that information to myself.  I do plan on casually asking when i'm closer to my edd what i should do if go into labor and there is no time to drive to the hospital just to see what they say.. it's not a stretch to ask since we do live a 45 min freeway drive away without traffic from the hospital. 


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#10 of 57 Old 05-30-2011, 10:54 PM
 
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It's not your fault that you can't really have a transparent relationship with an OB.  I would not tell an OB about any plans to UC - there is NO WAY they are going to support that choice.  If you do tell her, are you prepared for the consequences?  I mean sure, she could say, go with God and I'll be there for you when you need me, or she could respond quite negatively and even drop you from her care which is well within her right assuming you're not too far along.

 

I'd just think long and hard about it.  My FP knows that I'm birthing at home - in fact, she doesn't think the hospital would be a good thing for me and was one of the first to encourage my desire to birth at home.  My OB is not aware of my plans.  I'm sure he has plenty of 'ideas' regarding these next 6 or so weeks for me; he hasn't shared much of his 'end game' ideas and that's ok.  Don't ask, don't tell has its place, IMO!


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#11 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 04:55 AM
 
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I'm sorry, I really don't get this:

 

 

Quote:
I just think that regardless of how awesome she is, an OB is an OB , right?

 

So you:

 

1) Trust her

2) Think she is awesome

3) Already have experience with her advocating heavily on your behalf in a hospital environment.

 

I'm not understanding your reasoning for not being honest with her.  Given the relationship you have built with this woman, and how she has gone to bat for you in the past, why would you all of a sudden NOT trust her if she risked you out?

 

Me personally, if UC was something I was into (I gave birth in an (european) environment where an OB was present, but 'hands off' - she was nearby while I caught the baby myself, etc etc - you dont need to know my story), AT LEAST  I would simply tell her something vague that showed my intentions, i.e.:  'if all goes well, maybe I will be able to have the baby quickly at home and not need to call you.....'.     Perhaps, if shes the type of OB (as mine was) who is open minded (and it seems she is), there is additional help/advice/supplies/resources she could help you with.  I don't know why you would want to sabotage that possibility just because she HAPPENS to have some letters behind her name that automatically vilify her. 

 

It seems from your last post that your gut reaction is to trust her and not to lie to her - I would go with that, because you know her and you know yourself better than anyone here. Despite what some people would have you believe, there are OBs in this world that are inherently good care providers and will go above and beyond the call of duty to help women achieve the birth they want.  My second birth is proof of that.   Yours has already proven that she has the guts and the knowledge to break protocol.  Good luck :)

 

 

 

 

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#12 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 04:59 AM
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I think it is a bad idea for a lot of reasons, not least of which is you will be burning that bridge with an awesome OB  should you get pregnant again. I am a big fan of honesty though.

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#13 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 08:29 AM
 
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I think if you 2 last posters read the posts which came before you, you would "get"/understand why your advice to her may seem more like a way for OP to sabotage herself inadvertently. HTH.


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#14 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 11:34 AM
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I read previous posts, I just think it is never appropriate to lie to your medical professional. If I make a decision, I own it. Even if it goes against what the medical professional wants.

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#15 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 11:46 AM
 
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how about testing the waters before you jump in?

 

"i've been thinking i might give birth at home this time..."

 

gently opening the door for further communication instead of kicking it? you could go from there... 

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#16 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 01:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalaland42 View Post

I read previous posts, I just think it is never appropriate to lie to your medical professional. If I make a decision, I own it. Even if it goes against what the medical professional wants.

I don't know how you can say that when you are probably not a UCer and have maybe never had to face a situation in your life when not disclosing everything was in your best interest. I also think trying to appeal to her good morals by shaming her into doing something which may ultimately put her at the mercy of someone else's will is a bad move. As UCers, we make and own our decisions all the time, but there's a delicate balance of doing what is "right" versus doing what we need to do, and if you've never been in those shoes in some form or fashion, how very fortunate for you.


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#17 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElizabethE View Post



I don't know how you can say that when you are probably not a UCer and have maybe never had to face a situation in your life when not disclosing everything was in your best interest. I also think trying to appeal to her good morals by shaming her into doing something which may ultimately put her at the mercy of someone else's will is a bad move. As UCers, we make and own our decisions all the time, but there's a delicate balance of doing what is "right" versus doing what we need to do, and if you've never been in those shoes in some form or fashion, how very fortunate for you.


Yes, disclosing too much information could lead to not having OB care at all, and even facing issues with social services. It is possible to receive OB care and have a UC, and never lie about anything - calling in after the birth would be just fine. Isn't it true that, unlike homebirth midwives whom we pay out of pocket, OBs will not suffer financially if you don't give birth with them in attendance?

 


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#18 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 02:36 PM
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mittenkittens you should know that ElizabethE is the spokeswoman for all things UC (sarcasm here)...to disagree with her is to invite a long drawn out argument where you will never win because you are not ElizabethE.

 

 

 

OP...I personally would casually mention home birth as a feeler and see how she feels. If you love your OB so much though that might play a factor in your final decision if you plan on having more children in the same area and want to use her again for another baby....If you do not tell her and UC and then try to get her care again, she probably would be a little less receptive to even seeing you as a patient again.

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#19 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 02:56 PM
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I think that I would proceed with caution. As others have said, go to the first appointment (or two) and see if there is a way you can introduce the various ideas, etc. See if she would be open to it.

 

I would guess she isn't, even though she sounds like a really awesome OB. I would definitely want to keep the relationship with her, even if I had to keep my UC plans close to the vest.

 

I don't see keeping things private that would cause problems for you (or another) to be immoral; I have no problem withholding information if I think it's appropriate or not something the person needs-to-know right then. 

 

But, it's a tough call. 

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#20 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 02:58 PM
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oh, and I didn't have an OB. 

 

I did a UP, found an awesome family doctor, was honest with him about UC, and he said if I needed back up, to go to the hospital and say he is my doctor. He does attend births if need be, but it would keep the hospital from "bothering" me (his words) because he was my doctor and i would have had at least one prenatal appointment with him.

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#21 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 03:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

Well, I cant really lie to her about anything. She was my OB last time too, so she knows exactly how my labor went. She also knows that I am super into natural childbirth, and that I was a PIA for the hospital to deal with. Basically, they had to break every single protocol for me to birth there. And she made sure that it was set up to work that way. She made sure that no one ever asked me if I wanted an epi and that all of the nurses had reviewed my birth plan before I came into the hospital. I just think that regardless of how awesome she is, an OB is an OB , right? They've gone to school and learned about exactly why every woman should give birth in a hospital. So, I just cant imagine any OB being like , "Oh, cool you are having a UC. youll be fine." I guess Im really just afraid that if she knows that Im planning a UC she will stress me out about every little problem that might come up. And I DO trust her, so I think if she flat out told me "Hey, you really shouldnt do this because of xyz high risk factor," it would affect my decision for sure.


Also, Im trying not to be in the habit of lying to my hcp's, but it seems like its just harder and harder to tell the truth the more I try and take control of our own health.


That is soo cool that she did that...I wonder if it was difficult for her to get everyone on shift during your labour to let you be...?  At any rate, I think that's very rare and very LUCKY for you to have had that experience!  

 

And for the rest of the bolded I COMPLETELY agree.  And I do NOT believe that pointing this out is vilifying OB's.  I truly think OB's see things differently than most midwives who are trained and experienced in dealing with low risk natural pregnancy/labour/births.  They have different viewpoints.  And even if OB's KNOW that xyz is extremely rare...they might have seen it first hand which makes is so much more tangible in their mind's regardless of how low your risk is they want to avoid it at all costs-even if the procedures used to prevent 'xyz' can actually cause 'hij' which could be also be bad..maybe not so immediately or obviously, or maybe it is just less likely to cause liability issues for them.  I'm sure that many times they have great intentions but just act based on all the awful things they have heard/seen in their training/field of work.  Which lots of times doesn't factor in exactly the amount of risk being traded- as in in order to reduce a very nil chance of something extremely bad they do something that gives extreme risk of something bad(but not fatal) occuring.  Does that even make sense?  I am being so vague SORRY.

 

As for my personal opinion on this topic:  I am seeing an OB next month, I will not be telling her of my plans to UC.  Mind you I'm seeing her one time to get information about the condition of my cervix (was told it may/may not have been torn during last birth where DR. gave two episiotomies that extended all the way to the cervix)  Anyways, I want to know.   Not that it makes a huge difference, but it could affect things.  I have gone to a midwifery clinic and at this point I have no desire to tell them that I plan to UC.  I DO consider myself a very honest person...for some reason I don't look at them any differently than the acquaintance at church who knows I'm expecting and most likely assumes I'm having a hospital birth.  I'm I dishonest for not making certain they know my plans?  I don't think so.  So I wont be offering that info.  I can always decide to tell later.  BUT, (because once it's told you can't take it back) if at any time during my care I feel any inclination to tell one or all of the midwives I'm receiving care from I will pause and discuss it with DH as well just ponder the idea and the possible outcomes long and hard before telling them.  

 

This labour is going to affect me and my baby and my family more than it will ever affect any healthcare provider.  It's my responsibility to do all I can to bring the best outcome for me and my family.  At this point, I don't think telling any healthcare provider about the possibility of UCing is part of that :)  

 

Good luck with what you decide :)

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#22 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 03:41 PM
 
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Oh and, You don't need to lie to get hypothetical information.  

 

I'm new to this midwifery practice and could probably say ""what happen's if you don't get to my home before the baby? because I have a history of very fast labours.."  without them second guessing me -but, I haven't really had that fast of labours..

 

Rather I will honestly ask "what happen's if you don't get to my home before the baby?  Even tho my past labours have been long.  My older sister had similar and even longer labours and then went on to have a very precipitous labour with her third.  At any rate, what is your recommendations if my baby were to come before you?"  

 

Anyone could use that dialogue honestly by altering it to say "what happen's if you don't get to my home before the baby?  Even tho my past labours have been long.  My older sister had similar and even longer labours and then went on to have a very precipitous labour with her third.  At any rate, what is your recommendations if my baby were to come before you?"  or edit it according to what your back up plan is..hospital/midwife then hospital etc...

 

Hope that helps!

 

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#23 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrogirl View Post

I'm sorry, I really don't get this:

 

 

 

So you:

 

1) Trust her

2) Think she is awesome

3) Already have experience with her advocating heavily on your behalf in a hospital environment.

 

I'm not understanding your reasoning for not being honest with her.  Given the relationship you have built with this woman, and how she has gone to bat for you in the past, why would you all of a sudden NOT trust her if she risked you out?

 

Me personally, if UC was something I was into (I gave birth in an (european) environment where an OB was present, but 'hands off' - she was nearby while I caught the baby myself, etc etc - you dont need to know my story), AT LEAST  I would simply tell her something vague that showed my intentions, i.e.:  'if all goes well, maybe I will be able to have the baby quickly at home and not need to call you.....'.     Perhaps, if shes the type of OB (as mine was) who is open minded (and it seems she is), there is additional help/advice/supplies/resources she could help you with.  I don't know why you would want to sabotage that possibility just because she HAPPENS to have some letters behind her name that automatically vilify her. 

 

It seems from your last post that your gut reaction is to trust her and not to lie to her - I would go with that, because you know her and you know yourself better than anyone here. Despite what some people would have you believe, there are OBs in this world that are inherently good care providers and will go above and beyond the call of duty to help women achieve the birth they want.  My second birth is proof of that.   Yours has already proven that she has the guts and the knowledge to break protocol.  Good luck :)

 

 

 

 


Well, I didnt really ask you to get it, did I? I asked if you have told your OB that you were planning a UC. You made it clear that you arent into UC, so Im not sure why you thought you would get my POV.

I trust the woman to attend my hospital birth. I did not say that I trust her about every single thing in the world.

As far as a doctor having letters behind their name meaning that Im vilifying them, no. But those letters come with certain legal boundaries. An OB is not likely to give you supplies or advice on how to have a UC the best way.

Regardless of any of your opinions, Ill let you know that I take them with a grain of salt because of your snarkyness. Telling me that "I dont need to know your story" and assuming that I dont want help or advice is just rude. I asked a question, to people on a forum that is intended for people who have had or are planning a UC, or are at least "into it". If I had all the answers about why I feel the way I do about not trusting my OB with this information, then I wouldnt have posted the question. Dont take me for an idiot who hasnt thought this through for oh, I dont know, about the last 14 months.

I told her last time that I was thinking of having a midwife with my next baby and she didnt think it was a great idea because midwifery is illegal here and the midwife could not be held responsible if she made poor decisions that resulted in my baby being born with defects or stillborn.

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#24 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by sunshinemoma View Post

;At any rate, what is your recommendations if my baby were to come before you?"  or edit it according to what your back up plan is..hospital/midwife then hospital etc...

 

Hope that helps!

 


I'd like to find something like this to say, but I feel that the response is likely to be, "If you come to the hospital as soon as you go into labor, that is very unlikely to happen." or "Call an ambulance if you feel that you cant make it to the hospital."


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#25 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post




I told her last time that I was thinking of having a midwife with my next baby and she didnt think it was a great idea because midwifery is illegal here and the midwife could not be held responsible if she made poor decisions that resulted in my baby being born with defects or stillborn.
 



that does make it harder to feel out her opinion.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post





I'd like to find something like this to say, but I feel that the response is likely to be, "If you come to the hospital as soon as you go into labor, that is very unlikely to happen." or "Call an ambulance if you feel that you cant make it to the hospital."
 


maybe you could say something like, " i was really uncomforatble at the hospital. i'm going to stay home as long as I possibly can. what happens if the baby comes while we are still at home?"
 

 

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#26 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 06:11 PM
 
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Yes, disclosing too much information could lead to not having OB care at all, and even facing issues with social services. It is possible to receive OB care and have a UC, and never lie about anything - calling in after the birth would be just fine. Isn't it true that, unlike homebirth midwives whom we pay out of pocket, OBs will not suffer financially if you don't give birth with them in attendance?

 



Actually, from what I understand, having worked in the medical field and having friends that work in a OB/GYN office, it is billed at the end of the pregnancy, in other words, they dont get paid until after the person gives birth for the prenatal care they received. Its called global billing or something. Seems insane to me but thats what I was told. Maybe it was not correct, but from what I understood, they bill globally at the end for the entire pregnancy and the services given during it.

 

I would be honest with her. You seem to have a good relationship with her and I would tell her you want to be seen to be screened during your pregnancy but want a low key birth at home. If things get crazy, you'll call her. I just feel like being dishonest is burning a bridge. To me, she has gone out of her way to make your previous birth a success so why not give her the benefit of the doubt?

 


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#27 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 06:24 PM
 
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Im just playing devils advocate here for a moment. So if she bills globally at the end of your pregnancy like I understand most do, she will get paid for your prenatal care. She will lose out on the birth though and that is the biggest money maker for her. Does that make sense? So consider from an OB's standpoint, its a business and if she is going to make more money from another patient who is going to receive all of their prenatal care from her and deliver with her, she is more apt to take them on because it simply makes more financial sense for her. So will she get paid for your prenatal care, yes. Will she make more money off another patient, probably.

 

Just wanted to clarify my point.

 

Im totally just wondering what is your reason why you want to see an OB anyway, if your planning a UC? Like, do you want the standard prenatal appts or just a few and an U/S for positioning? Have you thought of alternatives like seeing a HB midwife and asking her about the possibility of having her stay nearby while you birth at home but away enough that you feel unwatched? Im just not sure seeing an OB is going to be the right choice for you. (totally not attacking you, just curious and trying to help).

 

 


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#28 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Im just playing devils advocate here for a moment. So if she bills globally at the end of your pregnancy like I understand most do, she will get paid for your prenatal care. She will lose out on the birth though and that is the biggest money maker for her. Does that make sense? So consider from an OB's standpoint, its a business and if she is going to make more money from another patient who is going to receive all of their prenatal care from her and deliver with her, she is more apt to take them on because it simply makes more financial sense for her. So will she get paid for your prenatal care, yes. Will she make more money off another patient, probably.

 

Just wanted to clarify my point.

 

Im totally just wondering what is your reason why you want to see an OB anyway, if your planning a UC? Like, do you want the standard prenatal appts or just a few and an U/S for positioning? Have you thought of alternatives like seeing a HB midwife and asking her about the possibility of having her stay nearby while you birth at home but away enough that you feel unwatched? Im just not sure seeing an OB is going to be the right choice for you. (totally not attacking you, just curious and trying to help).

 

 


Using homebirth midwives is not really an option for me. I live over an hour away from them, and I have a friend who lives near me who used them and they came about 12 minutes before the baby was born. I would have to pay them out of pocket, and risk them not coming until the last minute. I want to see an OB because I want to make sure that everything is moving in the right direction for me to give birth at home, alone. If I was using a midwife for prenatal care, I wouldnt need an OB, but as it stands seeing an OB is completely free, and a midwife is not. My OB has a CNM in her office, and I have use them before, so Im comfortable with them. I may not go to all of the appointments, but I probably will go more than a couple of times. As this is my first UC and my first homebirth, I do want prenatal care the entire time. My last baby turned breech on me at 35 weeks last time and I had no idea. If I hadnt seen my OB there is no way I would have known. Maybe this time I will be more aware of things like that, but I see no harm in seeing an OB since Im not going to pay a penny for it, they allow children at the visits, and its really close to my house.

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#29 of 57 Old 05-31-2011, 08:36 PM
 
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Banana has some good suggestions!

 

Really, my concern in your case is that she really does sound like a great OB, and depending on how far along you are (or aren't), you may desire or need her services further along in the pregnancy.  But if you tell her your plans to birth at home, she may drop you.  A lot of it has to do with how your local OBs generally practice.  Do any of them offer back-up services?  Does she??  I happen to know that in my community, NONE of the OBs will back up the homebirth midwives, and I'm certain they all think UC is nuckin' futs!!  It may even violate their own malpractice insurance to offer their professional services to someone who will birth outside of the hospital without them.

 

I don't enjoy having a somewhat superficial relationship with an OB, but I have to put myself and my baby FIRST.  That means NOT disclosing my plans to birth at home.

 

Everyone's situation is different, so a global "don't lie to a medical professional" would be really poor advice for mamas in many communities across the U.S.


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#30 of 57 Old 06-01-2011, 10:03 AM
 
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mittenkittens you should know that ElizabethE is the spokeswoman for all things UC (sarcasm here)...to disagree with her is to invite a long drawn out argument where you will never win because you are not ElizabethE.

 

 

 

OP...I personally would casually mention home birth as a feeler and see how she feels. If you love your OB so much though that might play a factor in your final decision if you plan on having more children in the same area and want to use her again for another baby....If you do not tell her and UC and then try to get her care again, she probably would be a little less receptive to even seeing you as a patient again.

Oh, so I am hated because I win arguments? love.gif  Thank you for today's positive affirmation! That feels gooood. High five!

 

Haters gonna hate! But, Mittens and I got no beef. You wanna be startin' something? hammer.gif

 

Oh yeah, and [obligatory response to OP so it looks like I'm still on topic and not just here to pick fights] = lawl

 

 

And yes OP, do not do anything to upset the OB. Remember to remain completely at her mercy, like a good girl. It is her life, after all. [Of course, sarcasm, Holly.]


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