UC Forum Concerns - Please read and share your thoughts - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 51 Old 07-10-2011, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by leahsmama View Post

I'm with nursingmommaof2 on this. Even if you just pulled to OP's post, but left the title or something it would be better than making the threads disappear. It makes UC look a lot safer than it is if you only leave up threads with positive outcomes.

 

Covering up deaths that occur in UC's is irresponsible, especially when the deaths can be very nearly conclusively linked to bad advice given on this board.

 

 

This thread is a subject of discussion for the UC forum members to offer their thoughts and suggestions on how to make the forum more beneficial and supportive for those considering and having a UC. The discussion is intended to also look at posts that are not from UC members but who want to give advice when there is concern about the safety of the mother and baby. Such posts can certainly be sincere and appropriate, though some will disagree with what is posted and there will be an exchange of opinion, which is also appropriate and expected in any discussion - not just in UC. However, it is clear from the language and behavior of some that an agenda is often behind their posting here and that should be considered, recognized, and addressed too. 

 

The language that you and nursingmommaof2 use in offering your opinions to this discussion is along the lines of what creates the atmosphere we are concerned about in the forum. "Covering up deaths" is an insinuation and attack, as is defining someone's post as "bad advice" and implicating it as something that caused death. Coming into this discussion to speak in this manner does not set the stage for a conducive and beneficial exchange of opinions and suggestions with members of this forum. If you cannot post in a way that is comfortable for and respectful of everyone, please step out of this discussion. 

 

We will continue to honor the mother's request that her thread be removed. The only way to achieve what you suggest via a thread title and posts removed is to edit or place a thread title to clearly state a message as an announcement. Announcing traumatic outcome or loss in such situations is not ours to do. If the mother wishes to do that she can post in one of the grief and loss forums which are support only. 

 

In most cases it is not simply the mention of the loss or trauma that leads someone to make a thread removal request but the manner in which some members post to the thread and/or copy posts to paste elsewhere to accuse, insult and blame. If that behavior would stop we might not have requests for removal and the threads will stay for everyone to read and be aware of. 


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#32 of 51 Old 07-10-2011, 06:00 AM
 
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I just wanted to offer my thoughts on the consequences of "bad advice". I agree that there is bad advice here sometimes, and that giving advice that is nor factually correct is not desirable. However, individuals are responsible for deciding what the quality of advice is. They are aware that the advice or opinion comes from someone they know nothing about. It is up to the individual to verify or disprove opinions given. To say that bad advice is directly responsible for causing bad outcomes is dubious - even though bad advice should not be offered. 


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#33 of 51 Old 07-10-2011, 08:32 AM
 
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I agree with Olivia, above. 

 

I had my first child before the advent of googling and before internet researching and forums exploded.  All I knew about birth was from books written by doctors (Glade Curtis, I think is the name), "What to Expect When You're Expecting," (the first edition probably, where there is ONE page on homebirth and it says nothing, referring to it more as precipitous labor and birth), etc.  I live in a university community, where there are a LOT of hospitals, teaching hospitals, HUGE medical population here.   I was never exposed to anything alternative, certainly not in birth.  I have a huge Italian family.  So does my husband.  I have dozens of cousins.  I am still the only homebirther among us.  And two of my close cousins, who are sisters, though they were both delivered naturally in the 70s, between the two of them they have 10 kids, and every single one of them was a c-section.  All I ever heard from anyone about birth was that it was hell, I heard horror stories of course, and then the sewing-circle jokes about getting the epidural as soon as you walk in the door.

 

If that's not bad advice, at least for someone with the heart of a homebirther, I don't know what is.  I had my first two babies in the hospital with all the "bells and whistles" (I'm talking internal fetal monitor, vacuum suction, etc.) because I was labeled "failure to progress."  I truly believed my body was broken.  My woman's body couldn't do what a woman's body should be able to do.  It almost felt like a disability, when all that was really true about me was that I did NOT belong in the hospital because I was only in prodromal labor, and my body would readily and victoriously bring forth the baby it had nurtured for 41 weeks if left the hell alone!

 

We all get bad advice.  I've learned to take what advice I get, then research it myself to see if it's good or not.  That's what any thinking woman should do.  Not that I wasn't a thinking woman in the beginning, but I think age, wisdom, experience, and maturity helped to grow that in me. 

 

 

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#34 of 51 Old 07-10-2011, 07:22 PM
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I agree.

 

Most often, advice is given sincerely. Sometimes that advice is bad. Sometimes that advice is good.

 

I believe that more women could have painless, pleasurable births -- if they knew it existed, believed it could happen for them, and did what they could to create it, and did so with non-attachment to the results (eg, it didn't matter to them if they had pain or not). But, whenever I bring this up, some women flatly refuse the information ("You cannot tell me that birth isn't painful") or I am told by other women that it is not supportive/healthy/appropriate to tell them about the possibility of something "so rare." Both of these have to do with beliefs around birth, imo, and not necessarily biological realities. This is not to say that all women at all times will have painless, pleasurable births, but that it is possible for more woman than the number who experience it in our culture currently.

 

Essentially, my "advice" about the possibility and how one can help create the situation of a pleasurable birth is considered "bad advice" for many people. 

 

This is no different than the common refrain of "take the drugs!" Yes, it is advice. And, in some circumstances, it is *excellent* advice. But, in other circumstances, it may not be. When I was given this advice, I simply disregarded it, just as many women disregard my advice on what may create a painless birth experience for them. In fact, both the epidural and the advice I give point to the same issue -- pain management or painlessness during birth. That's interesting, now that I think of it!

 

Like Sara, I don't really take advice in a glib manner, and I assume that most other people don't either. They may ask for my advice -- what I would do -- and I would usually ask questions and then also share my logical process, explaining how it relates to the philosophical underpinnings that I hold. I feel that this tempers the advice a bit, because I know that not everyone holds the same ideas that I do, and therefore would not make the same logical inferences. 

 

Ultimately, I assume that people are only seeking information, not asking me to guide their decision. I'm not really seeing myself as somehow responsible for their choices simply because I offered my own process up for them to examine for themselves, because ultmately I expect that they will look at the advice, weigh the evidences that they have, and form their own decision.

 

I often find, too, that women who make similar decisions as I do often do so for dramatically different reasons. Diversity is cool.

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#35 of 51 Old 07-10-2011, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MittensKittens View Post

I just wanted to offer my thoughts on the consequences of "bad advice". I agree that there is bad advice here sometimes, and that giving advice that is nor factually correct is not desirable. However, individuals are responsible for deciding what the quality of advice is. They are aware that the advice or opinion comes from someone they know nothing about. It is up to the individual to verify or disprove opinions given. To say that bad advice is directly responsible for causing bad outcomes is dubious - even though bad advice should not be offered. 



MittensKittens, I'm struggling to make sense of your statement.  

 

As I read it, what you are saying is that, while it's undesirable for posters to give bad advice on the UC forum, it's also undesirable for people to point out the problems with bad advice they encounter while reading the UC forum.  It looks to me like you are suggesting that it's up to the individual to evaluate advice offered, and that no other individuals should share the results of their evaluation.  Thus, if something bad happens because a mother followed bad advice she is personally responsible for the outcome, and also, no one should comment to caution mothers about potential adverse outcomes they they know or suspect might occur.  

 

I feel like I must be misinterpreting your statement.  Can you please clarify for me?  For example, what do you think should happen if someone posts something that is clearly seriously incorrect in the UC forum?

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#36 of 51 Old 07-10-2011, 09:31 PM
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Not MK, but. . .

 

I think that if you see factual information that is suspect, it's definitely a good idea to refute it by putting up information to counter it. In my opinion, information is a good thing, and the more information -- particularly good information -- the better.

 

the issue, though, that i see or am confused about is what is being considered 'advice.' an earlier poster puts up that she thinks/feels that when a person says "I have X, what is your knowledge/experience/opinion regarding X as a UCer?" then that person is asking for medical advice. 

 

I do not see it as asking for advice, but simply more information on which to form their own opinion and decision. To me, medical advice is something that one asks a medical expert for, after doing some research, and puts forth a clear question. That might be what I recently asked my doctor: "My son will be 3 soon, and I believe from my research that it is safe for him to get chicken pox. I'm concerned about the timing with his starting school, and I'm concerned about the care he may require if it's not a simple case. I'd like to expose him so that we can be sure that he gets as mild a case as possible that is also most likely to give him life long immunity. What are your thoughts on this?" (my doctor, because they don't do chicken pox vax here, recommended a pox party, but that he was not in a position to provide a well controlled one on our schedule. He asserted that he would put me on the contact list, and that I should also put the school on notice too.)

 

I had already asked on a message board people's experience and opinions with pox parties vs simple "luck of the draw" exposure. I wasn't seeking their advice, but helping to see what the outcomes were outside of the studies that I was reading about the vax vs regular exposure vs pox parties (there are a few studies, surprisingly), and I wanted to go with clear questions for my doctor when the time came.

 

Were they advising me to do a pox party or to do a regular exposure? not really. They were saying "I went to a pox party and my kid got REALLY sick, but most the other kids were just mild." and "I did luck of the draw and it was  mild" and so on. Someone might have said "I would pox party all the way, no question!" But even that is just their *opinion*.

 

 

So, I feel like most of the UC board is not medical advice, really, but rather looking at what people's opinions and experiences around this information *is* and whether or not that information is relevant for them.

 

And as such, it's not really good or bad 'advice' so much as opinions and experiences and how people think about the factual information available to them. 

 

And from this, we expect that the person is going to continue on -- well beyond our opinions and experiences -- into more information and more self reflection and -- gasp -- truly make an independent decision.

 

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#37 of 51 Old 07-11-2011, 12:15 AM
 
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MittensKittens, I'm struggling to make sense of your statement.  

 

As I read it, what you are saying is that, while it's undesirable for posters to give bad advice on the UC forum, it's also undesirable for people to point out the problems with bad advice they encounter while reading the UC forum.  It looks to me like you are suggesting that it's up to the individual to evaluate advice offered, and that no other individuals should share the results of their evaluation.  Thus, if something bad happens because a mother followed bad advice she is personally responsible for the outcome, and also, no one should comment to caution mothers about potential adverse outcomes they they know or suspect might occur.  

 

I feel like I must be misinterpreting your statement.  Can you please clarify for me?  For example, what do you think should happen if someone posts something that is clearly seriously incorrect in the UC forum?


No, no, not at all. I am sorry if it comes across that way. I was trying to be diplomatic orngbiggrin.gif. Bad advice given on the UC board comes from both sides of the UC debate, but more frequently from the UC-ers themselves because the anti-crowd tends to just say "Hey, don't do it!". I don't think we should be aiming for a board where it is acceptable to say, for instance, "breech is just another variety of normal", when that implies there are no added risks with breech births. Because there are. Or that it is totally fine to give birth at home at 32 weeks (never heard this here, but well, it is bad advice). Likewise, it would be bad advice to suggest that a woman must get an ultrasound, or something similar. 

 

But... when we read on the internet that "breech is just a variation of normal, go do it!" we should obviously not take that advice at face value, and ought to research vaginal breech births in detail, and learn about their risks and how to possibly counter them. The woman who does independent research may, as I did, come to the conclusion that breech births actually carry a whole host of risks, and she does not want to UC a breech baby. OR she may decide to UC after looking at the risks in more detail. But IF she UCs solely because someone on MDC told her it was fine, that is not the responsibility of the person giving that advice, but the responsibility of the person who decided "learning about birth" ended with reading statements by random people online. It is just not a good idea to listen to one sentence by someone you don't know the first thing about, and I assume sane people know this. That is what I was trying to get across. 

 

Of course, I did not mean that when bad advice is giving nobody should point this out. That would be ridiculous. 

 

What do others think?

 

 

 


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#38 of 51 Old 07-11-2011, 01:24 AM
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But she UCs solely because someone on MDC told her it was fine, that is not the responsibility of the person giving that advice, but the responsibility of the person who decided "learning about birth" ended with reading statements by random people online. It is just not a good idea to listen to one sentence by someone you don't know the first thing about, and I assume sane people know this.

 

perhaps it is too much to assume! LOL

 

but, i tend to agree with you. if this is all of the person's learning, then, yeah, issues. but can i really be responsible for someone else's mental illness, insanity, or stupidity? 

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#39 of 51 Old 07-11-2011, 01:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

But she UCs solely because someone on MDC told her it was fine, that is not the responsibility of the person giving that advice, but the responsibility of the person who decided "learning about birth" ended with reading statements by random people online. It is just not a good idea to listen to one sentence by someone you don't know the first thing about, and I assume sane people know this.

 

perhaps it is too much to assume! LOL

 

but, i tend to agree with you. if this is all of the person's learning, then, yeah, issues. but can i really be responsible for someone else's mental illness, insanity, or stupidity? 



IF, added. I was having my early morning coffee when I wrote that and just had to reply immediately, ha. Your last sentence is exactly my point. 

 

That does not, in any way, mean that if terrible advice is given, more sane or knowledgeable people should not point this out. This does happen, as well. 


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#40 of 51 Old 07-11-2011, 01:46 AM
 
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wow, guess my experience here has only been positive. i had a up/uc.  never once did I feel judge or scared to share.  got a lot of great info and support on here.  I wasnt even aware that there was medical professionals trolling the board lol  Of course it's been over a year since I've had the baby so I suppose things could have changed on here since then.  i feel pretty bad that others have not had the same awesome experience on here that I have had,


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#41 of 51 Old 07-11-2011, 02:43 AM
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that's largely been my experience, too, sharlla.

 

only recently have things seemed. . .strange. but i've just gotten back from my MDC break (which lasted from Sept/Oct 2010 to about May/June 2011.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post

Rixa Freeze recently posted her PhD thesis about UC.

 

One of her observations is that over the time she studied the UC movement, there was a definite change of attitude.   Earlier, there was a lot of discussion of "If you are going to UC, you should educate yourself about birth, about what might arise, about what is 'normal' and what is 'variation of normal' and what is 'this is one of the things obstetrics were invented to deal with."   And this has changed, more recently, to a message of "experience is most important and educating yourself about possibilities is really not important compared to relying on instincts."  

 

 

This seems so right! Everyone has their own opinions about UC, but I feel like education is the key, and that's why a lot of us come here. Trusting your instincts w/o learning seems lazy to me. I think it's great to trust your instincts, but when it's something this big, it is hard for many of us, that's why we come here:)
 

 



Quote:
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I'm going to write my post before reading the response so that my view isnt shaded. Sorry if opinions are repeated.

Personally, I have thought very seriously about Ucing this time, and I came to this forum looking for information, guidance, and support. I've only posted a few times, and this is what I've gotten in response to my questions.
~a crazy person who was so pro UC that she couldnt see any other point of view and anyone who wasnt with her on every.single.thing was a "troll"
~a legitimate question that I was genuinely wanting advice on getting taken to another website to make fun of me.
~a couple of book recommendations (thanks!)
~some amazing birth stories

To me, the negatives with my experience here greatly out weigh the positives as I have also seen:

~a fake horror birth story
~namecalling, arguing, and total non support
~people being accused of killing someone's child
~very little actual information being exchanged

I am interested in the private lounge, but other than that I cannot imagine posting any other personal feelings about UC here. Im really sad about it because I still havent decided what to do, and I have NO support for it IRL and I was really looking for online support or information that wasnt coupled with people telling me that Im stupid and trying to kill my baby. However, this just isnt a good place for that kind of support.

I dont know what to do to make it a better forum, other than making it private. Still, even if it was private, Im sure that posts would get taken to other websites because I know that there are trolls in the private lounge. But at least then people wouldnt post such asinine things because they know they could lose their membership to the UC forum . Personally, I think immediate moderation of everything posted might make it better. (Someone looking in on this forum more often that most?) Maybe requiring a certian post count before being able to post (like TAO)? While I agree that people should be able to post their point of view, there are very few places online where you can get UC support and a million places where you can get told what a dumbass you are for UC'ing. Why should mothering fall into the second category?


This is exactly where I'm at (we're even due the same month). I thought this would be a great place to come, but all I've seen is judgement. I don't even mind the negative UC or "trolls" so much as the attacks against each other. It's like someone picks a fight every chance they get around here! It seems like this board would have more support b/c of the subject matter, but most threads that I've read turn into something totally different than what the OP is asking/saying. It's like if someone has a different opinion than someone else they are fired up! It's so odd and bothers me so much that I've decided not to hang out around here much:( Hope it can change.

 


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This seems so right! Everyone has their own opinions about UC, but I feel like education is the key, and that's why a lot of us come here. Trusting your instincts w/o learning seems lazy to me. I think it's great to trust your instincts, but when it's something this big, it is hard for many of us, that's why we come here:)


This is exactly why I come here.  I can get standard medical advice from my midwives, I can get happy go lucky "what do I pack for the hospital" advice everywhere else.  I love it that there are other people here who have researched the things I am thinking about, who can point out resources and information I may not have found yet.   I like being able to look at people's opinions, look at the resources and information they are drawing from, and forming my own ideas.  And yes, that sometimes includes advice maybe direction away from UC, but it seems like there isn't so much of that as there is "you're nuts, you're going to kill your baby" inflammatory type stuff going on.

 

And even if I don't end up UCing, I am a better patient, a better person, a better mother for all the knowledge I am acquiring as I explore this option.  Yeah I rely a lot on my instincts, but my brain is important too.

 

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#44 of 51 Old 07-15-2011, 11:57 PM
 
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It's been some time since I've posted. I think since last year after my 5th baby (Jack) was born...4th uc. I've lurked but have honestly resisted posting, because of the uncomfortableness of some threads. Although I think I may have information to share, I stop because having journeyed from baby #1 hopsital birth to baby #5...off the grid...I have become more reclusive. I am an expert with my body alone and wouldn't want to steer someone from UC or towards UC for the wrong reasons.

Those mamas who choose to really really work through the concept and act of UC I think take everything with a grain of salt and are smart enough to come to their own conclusions based on the tremendous amount of info out there. But the fear mongering that I've seen here and other places...even on the playground if you can believe it...can be overwhelming at best. I don't want to confuse anyone, nor do I want to debate either.

When I started thinking about better births back in 2004 (?wha??) I came here and really felt the love from you "thinkingmamas", not know-it-alls (there's a difference).

I just want to see the love again for those new mamas who have a deep need for knowledge as their paridigm shifts.

 

lots of love

aj

 


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#45 of 51 Old 07-16-2011, 05:49 PM
 
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I rarely post here because it is too public for my taste.  I prefer closed forums where a simple internet search won't bring up posts I have written.  

 

I would love for this forum to be similar to the natural birth groups at cafemom, where one must agree to certain rules when they join, and the forum is private.  But easy to join.  If anyone does not follow the rules or stirs up trouble, kick them out.  Because I don't post here often I am not eligible to join the private UC forum.  I personally think it should be easier to join the private UC forum here, it will become apparent right away who belongs there and who doesn't.  

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#46 of 51 Old 07-17-2011, 05:58 AM
 
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I'm new to the boards and even newer to considering UC but I've been grateful for the community here, even as it is (there's more going on than I am aware, obviously!). On the one post I started, with a question about whether I was considering UC for the right reasons, I received encouragement, the recommendation to listen to my own heart, warnings about being too anti-medical establishment, further encouraged to do my own research and really dig into my own needs/thoughts, and allowed to pop around and read the rest of the threads and soak up what I could here. And it was what I needed. Thank you. I was able to decide that at this time, with this pregnancy, I wasn't prepared to UC and I'm now very at peace with that decision. But if I hadn't been able to explore the option? Well, I can't imagine peace without knowing there are options out there and being able to discuss them calmly with others. Restrictions like that just create struggles in me. So, again,  thank you!

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Originally Posted by MissMia View Post

I rarely post here because it is too public for my taste.  I prefer closed forums where a simple internet search won't bring up posts I have written.  

 

I would love for this forum to be similar to the natural birth groups at cafemom, where one must agree to certain rules when they join, and the forum is private.  But easy to join.  If anyone does not follow the rules or stirs up trouble, kick them out.  Because I don't post here often I am not eligible to join the private UC forum.  I personally think it should be easier to join the private UC forum here, it will become apparent right away who belongs there and who doesn't.  


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#48 of 51 Old 08-01-2011, 07:47 PM
 
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I am not a frequent visitor to this forum.  I have had one UC.  For the sake of privacy and protection, IRL I tend to play it off as a totally unplanned UC, but in reality it was planned UC with the possibility of going elsewhere should I change my mind or think it necessary.  That was in 2007.  I don't know about the changes that have taken place since then since, as I said, I have rarely visited after that child was born.  What i can say is how much I appreciated the knowledge I did receive from this site.  One of the most helpful things was being able to bring up medical advice or issues, this forum was particularly helpful in seeking out more/alternative information. What I heard from the doctors and midwives was a certain set of info, and only a certain track to find out more.  Here at the UC forums, bringing up those issues in a wwyd or what do you think about this?  type way (or just looking for other posts that asked the same questions) often led me to finding different studies or a different perspective on the info I had that helped me to delve deeper, be actually better educated, and make a better decision. There were things that I hadn't even known to consider before I came to this site.  There were other things I had been considering, but didn't know where to get the info I needed to really understand or decide something. There were some things where I had plenty of information, but was having difficulty deciding. 

The other things I found particularly helpful were all the discussion of the ..."mechanics" (for lack of a better word) .. of having a UC. What did you gather to prepare and where did you get your supplies? Where did you labor? How did you clean up? Did you monitor your own baby's heartrate or check yourself or not and why? If you tore, what did you do about it after? How did you go about getting the birth certificate? How did you decide to cut the cord (thread? buy one of the clamps the hospitals use?) etc.

And last but not least were all of the personal experiences.  What worked, what didn't, who transferred and why.  Stories of successful births. Also a few where the baby died.. and why and how and what happened.  It all gave me a wider view of what was possible and how to gauge things. 

I remember the basic "voice" of the forums being very supportive and encouraging, with a good deal of knowledge, pointing to a lot of helpful resources, and not afraid to encourage or support someone who was finding the need to give up the UC because of various indications of a problem.  I didn't find a very anti-medical stance, only one that kept a healthy, respectful distance, with the acknowledgement that much of our current medical practices are good in their place, but the problem is that too often they are overflowing into areas where they don't belong and causing problems.

again, I don't necessarily know what has changed as I have just started back here again today, but I at least wanted to give you the idea of what I hope can continue here at the UC MDC forum. Oh, and I like that it is public, because I don't think I would have had the courage to search and then participate if it were a private forum during that pregnancy. When I first started looking here I was not convinced that this was a real option, only starting to think maybe it was worth exploring. Delving into the forums anonymously gave me the opportunity to get a really good look and slowly built up both my knowledge base and my courage. I think having a good public forum is so helpful to spread the "word" and help others to learn about UC and all it's possibilities... and maybe even change some minds.

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#49 of 51 Old 08-05-2011, 03:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

that's largely been my experience, too, sharlla.

 

only recently have things seemed. . .strange. but i've just gotten back from my MDC break (which lasted from Sept/Oct 2010 to about May/June 2011.



I had a similar break and I've noticed the same thing. A lot of things have changed, and everything seemed off. I feel there is a lot of judgement not just from "trolls" but from within the UC community itself. But I could just be the only one.


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#50 of 51 Old 08-17-2011, 06:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MissMia View Post

I rarely post here because it is too public for my taste.  I prefer closed forums where a simple internet search won't bring up posts I have written.  

 

I would love for this forum to be similar to the natural birth groups at cafemom, where one must agree to certain rules when they join, and the forum is private.  But easy to join.  If anyone does not follow the rules or stirs up trouble, kick them out.  Because I don't post here often I am not eligible to join the private UC forum.  I personally think it should be easier to join the private UC forum here, it will become apparent right away who belongs there and who doesn't.  



exactly!

 


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#51 of 51 Old 08-22-2011, 04:20 PM
 
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I think this is my first post here, but I had an accidental UC 10 months ago.  It was (mostly) awesome, but next time I'll be calling the midwife earlier b/c I don't think I could do it again.
 

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Originally Posted by nursingmommaof2 View Post

I would like it if Mothering stopped deleting any mention of a UC going badly. There have been many UC deaths that have been quickly covered up. Keeping those threads alive would alert potential UCs to the real risks of UC.



This.  Hospital horror stories are allowed so I don't see why UC and hb should be any different.  No matter what kind of birth I'm planning I want to hear the pros and cons, the awesome stories and the awful ones.  If I didn't want to hear any dissenting opinions I wouldn't talk about it anywhere, to anyone.


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