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#301 of 406 Old 02-07-2012, 10:23 AM
 
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I'm going to guess it's anti-Amish to be posting on MDC though... ;-)  


 

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#302 of 406 Old 02-07-2012, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#303 of 406 Old 02-07-2012, 03:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zinemama View Post


I don't see you as combative, no worries! understand that you may feel this way, but perhaps as an adult your child might like to visit other countries, see how other people live. Maybe "going through airport crap" will be worth it to him. Perhaps your child will choose to apply his love of learning to a college education and may need aid to do so. Maybe he won't think that's "gross" (not sure what you mean by that - that formal education is disgusting?). Nor am I clear why you would find programs like disability payments - if, God forbid - your child should be disabled, or WIC, which helps so many low-income families, to be "gross" as well. I get that you don't like them, but It's a very strange word choice. Maybe you can elaborate?
All I'm saying is, it's much more difficult to get a SSN as an adult than as a child, particularly if you don't have a BC, as a pp mentioned, and not having one takes a lot of choices off the table.
I don't quite understand the anonymity thing.

I understand the 'gross' and totally agree. go free go sustainable.
 

 


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#304 of 406 Old 02-07-2012, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#305 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 05:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mleawicks View Post

I understand the 'gross' and totally agree. go free go sustainable.
 

 



 



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Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

Thanks! I think this might be one of those things your either get or you don't...


This simply isn't true.  I think many of us "get it", we just don't agree. 

 

And people abusing anything or anyone is "gross", you are making sweeping judgments that are unfair and gross.

 

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#306 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 08:00 AM
 
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This simply isn't true.  I think many of us "get it", we just don't agree. 

 

And people abusing anything or anyone is "gross", you are making sweeping judgments that are unfair and gross.

 


 

Not only do we "get" it, but we probably "get" it better than you (not the "you" I'm quoting here, the "you" this post is quoting). 

 

OP?  You  just admitted that until sometime during this thread, you actually thought that birth certificates and social security numbers/cards were the same thing.


They're NOT the same thing, they're totally and completely different things.   They serve different purposes, they are administered by entirely different organizations (at entirely different levels of government!!), and have very different legislative and administrative histories. 

 

You want us to believe your theories as to the nefarious underpinnings of these things, yet you clearly do not understand what they actually are.   This makes it hard to take any of your arguments about them seriously at all.  

 


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#307 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 09:18 AM
 
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Also, not having either of these absolutely does not confer exemption from the laws of the land that you live in, nor does it act as a cloaking device where an undocumented child is literally invisible to the government.

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#308 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#309 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 11:20 AM
 
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We used our Birth Certificate to get a SSN number and passport for the baby I had at home Unassisted. It was the ONLY documentation I needed for SSN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenbat View Post

 

 

 

SSN can NOT be got via a birth Certificate you must show proof of birth- your BC means nothing and they will not except it- the hosp sends proof of birth (different) the physician, MF or a ped can also sign this- they have a form at SS that they give you and it states BC is not excepted --- this is for a young child

 

 

we went thru this three years ago

we could not use our BC for our DS and had to have the SS form filled out by his ped

 

ETA - some states do issue BC for stillborns that is one of the reasons BC are not valid  



 

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#310 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 11:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post


I don't understand why not having a SSN is something to laugh about. Your child would not be able to:
be claimed by you as a dependent on your taxes - not a big deal to me
get government services he may be eligible for as a minor - gross
have a bank account/college savings account opened in his name by you - not a big deal, there are other ways to save
apply for financial aid for college - double gross, watch this first video http://inflation.us/videos.html
get a passport - you couldn't pay me enough money to go through airport crap
get a driver's license - this might be a problem
open his own bank account - not a super big deal
get a mortgage
get a state ID
apply for most jobs
collect social security as an adult (if it's still around) -GROSS!!!
What's the benefit of having your life be so constrained?


Anonymity and not being taxed, or tracked, etc. is the main reason. As far as bank account, mortgage, getting a job: Bank account in not a big deal. Get a safe in your house, live debt free, pay as you go, etc. Mortgage: buy a for sale by owner home or a rent to own home. Jobs: find a cash only job, etc. There's a lot of illegals with no SSN that get jobs. Or farm, which we do. State ID and driving is the only problem that will have to be worked out.

 

I'm not trying to be combative but there are plenty of good reasons not to have a national tracking number.


OP, it might help if you restate your reasons for not wanting a BC, as I think this post is what most people in this thread are referring to, where you state that not being taxed IS a reason.

 

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#311 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#312 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#313 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#314 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 12:45 PM
 
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I was actually referring to the earlier claim that CPS cannot take custody of a child who does not have a birth certificate. And the later claim that this is of course true because they wouldn't know the child existed if there wasn't a birth certificate.


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#315 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 02:40 PM
 
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So glad we're all being schooled.  I thought for sure I must be an idiot.  That SSI tax has certainly done nothing for me... Oh... wait... My Downs Uncle found it useful... AHA!  I know quite a few more people that found it useful as well... all special needs.  Who gives a rats AZZ about them?  I need to start thinking more about myself!thumb.gif

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#316 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

Thanks! I think this might be one of those things your either get or you don't...



I totally get the urge to want to create a life outside of systems that you find oppressive. I go to great lengths in my life to live outside of systems of homophobia and misogyny and racism. I would like to protect my child from systems that destroy the environment and disenfranchise vulnerable people.

 

What I don't get is the specific religious view point in which you & some others are framing your arguments. As someone who doesn't share that religious framework, the logic of your arguments just doesn't make any sense to me, sorry.

 

And as far as I can tell, no one in this thread is making a non-religious argument for not getting BCs for your children. The only ones advocating against BC have religious reasons for doing so. Everyone else seems to think that getting a BC is a good idea. Unless I've missed something?

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#317 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 07:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

State ID and driving is the only problem that will have to be worked out.


http://driving.justincredible.me/  ;)

 

 


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#318 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 07:13 PM
 
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While travel is a right... and I get that... the douches that rearended me and fractured my vertebrea helping cement my Disabled status at 29... didn't feel the need to have a license or insurance... um... basically they felt it was just fine to not have anything that could pin point who they were... and then they were nice enough to leave me stranded... in pain... so... I could give two sh*ts about anyones right to trapse around the f*ing country without documentation.  You'd be amazed at the people who feel no obligation to be human when they can get in trouble.  Ha... but what do I know?  Oh and they were obviously legally here.  And later found. 

 

Documentation holds people accountable.  Well sometimes. 

Quote:
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http://driving.justincredible.me/  ;)

 

 



 

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#319 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 07:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

These people you are describing are most likely Mennonite. We have modern people, Amish, and Mennonite customers so I do know the difference and know their customs. I am not fantasizing. My daughter has been babysat by a Mennonite family at a business convention we were at. I know what the f---- I am talking about.

 

This thread is a dead horse, once again.



Um, no.  I mean Amish.  Like the ones I lived by.  The ones I visited the farms of and traded berries for baked goods.  The ones my parents bought baked goods off of for years.  Guys in the black pants, straw hats, and blue shirts riding the horses & buggies.  The ones that called themselves Amish.  They also sent some of their kids to public schools, shopped at Wal-Mart, etc.  The ones that sent their kids to the pediatrician in town because their daughter was too sick too help.  The ones that had to go to the county's ER after a car-buggy accident.  Yep, I know what I'm talking about too.

 

Mennonite....heck, I know some of those too.  I had an awesome Mennonite man as a college professor.  I loved his classes on terrorism and sociology!

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#320 of 406 Old 02-08-2012, 07:24 PM
 
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HA.  Yep, Amish.  I lived in Camden, Michigan...home to an Amish settlement.  Right on.

 

http://amishamerica.com/michigan-amish/#hillsdale county

 

ETA:  This one talks about the bakery I mentioned above:  http://voices.yahoo.com/hillsdale-county-michigan-has-lot-offer-folks-4751348.html

 

So yeah, I know what I'm talking about too.  Have a great night!


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#321 of 406 Old 02-09-2012, 02:58 PM
 
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I get that some people want to not support systems of misogyny, homophobia, etc. etc... but uh.   I really fail to see how that links up to not participating at all.  I mean, wouldn't it make sense that you could change the system from within more than you could from without?  I mean, since I live in America, and am a citizen, I have a dog in the game, so to speak.  Unless you are planning on moving to a country where you agree with all the laws and systems and it's flawless in every way, I don't know how opting out (or, opting your child out) is going to help anything.  I can't go into a random company and tell them how to run their business.  But maybe if I get hired by the company, even at a low level, I *might* be able to work my way up within its ranks to where I could change the policies myself.  Is it likely to happen?  Not really.  Is it possible?  More so than if I never worked for the company at all.  And if your child may one day grow up to be a politician who makes good changes on a community or even national level, chances are they'll need paperwork at some point.

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#322 of 406 Old 02-10-2012, 04:29 AM
 
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Heinlein's "Coventry" comes to mind.

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#323 of 406 Old 02-10-2012, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#324 of 406 Old 02-11-2012, 07:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
  There's no DNA submission requirement or tracking number or anything of that nature.


Ummm... PKU tests are stored by the government for DNA samples...

 

 


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#325 of 406 Old 02-11-2012, 07:48 PM
 
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Quote:
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Ummm... PKU tests are stored by the government for DNA samples...

 

 



Ummm.... the PKU test has absolutely nothing to do with the birth certificate.   They are two different processes (three different processes, if you count the Social Security Number application!) and are not linked.

 

And even if you do believe that the government is linking them, they're still separate processes, with separate consent forms.   Lots of people here apparently skip the PKU (though I personally think that's silly at best and reckless at worst, but that's another thread entirely and its been done before) and still get birth certificates.

 

Again:  When you submit the birth certificate application, there IS NO REQUIREMENT THAT YOU SUBMIT DNA. It's not like they require that you use a fountain pen full of your infant's cord blood or something.  

 

But if you're that worried, wear gloves while filling it out and don't lick the envelope.  Problem solved!

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#326 of 406 Old 02-12-2012, 07:18 AM
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Ummm... PKU tests are stored by the government for DNA samples...

 

 



 

This varies from state to state.  And, while some states store samples for potential future research, no state runs DNA sequencing on them because that is prohibitively expensive, and most states do not catalog the samples or maintain them in archival conditions. 

 

 

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#327 of 406 Old 02-12-2012, 12:37 PM
 
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B FLIPPIN S!  So ridiculous.  Just like the NSA monitors all your phone calls... I've worked there... they hire some jack offs who are way too smart with no social skills... It's like Daycare for geniuses who eat wallpaper.  The only DNA that is collected is from felons and it's not even in all states.  Stop the fear mongering. 

 

Quote:
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Ummm... PKU tests are stored by the government for DNA samples...

 

 



 

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#328 of 406 Old 02-12-2012, 12:38 PM
 
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B FLIPPIN S!  So ridiculous.  Just like the NSA monitors all your phone calls... I've worked there... they hire some jack offs who are way too smart with no social skills... It's like Daycare for geniuses who eat wallpaper.  The only DNA that is collected is from felons and it's not even in all states.  Stop the fear mongering. 

 



 



I'd like to point out that I was not Hired by NSA... so... I don't eat wallpaper nor am I smart...

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

B FLIPPIN S!  So ridiculous.  Just like the NSA monitors all your phone calls... I've worked there... they hire some jack offs who are way too smart with no social skills... It's like Daycare for geniuses who eat wallpaper.  The only DNA that is collected is from felons and it's not even in all states.  Stop the fear mongering. 
 

 

LOL!   My office was contracted to do some research on the effectiveness of a job preparation program.   Two different programs run by SSA serve youth and adults who need this assistance, and we wanted to be able to track graduates of from one program as they entered the other using SSA data.   We couldn't.  Different computer databases owned by SSA, for the purposes of  keeping track of benefits paid and services used by the same people as children and adults were programmed so differently that they could not be accurately matched.  

 

The government.  A lot less competent at recordkeeping than we think it is.

 

 


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#330 of 406 Old 02-12-2012, 01:06 PM
 
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Right?  Sometimes I wander around in wonderment of all the people that wandering around around me... Sheepish.gif
 

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LOL!   My office was contracted to do some research on the effectiveness of a job preparation program.   Two different programs run by SSA serve youth and adults who need this assistance, and we wanted to be able to track graduates of from one program as they entered the other using SSA data.   We couldn't.  Different computer databases owned by SSA, for the purposes of  keeping track of benefits paid and services used by the same people as children and adults were programmed so differently that they could not be accurately matched.  

 

The government.  A lot less competent at recordkeeping than we think it is.

 

 



 

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