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#61 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#62 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 08:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post


Anonymity and not being taxed, or tracked, etc. is the main reason. As far as bank account, mortgage, getting a job: Bank account in not a big deal. Get a safe in your house, live debt free, pay as you go, etc. Mortgage: buy a for sale by owner home or a rent to own home. Jobs: find a cash only job, etc. There's a lot of illegals with no SSN that get jobs. Or farm, which we do. State ID and driving is the only problem that will have to be worked out.

 

I'm not trying to be combative but there are plenty of good reasons not to have a national tracking number.



when you say find a cash only job, are you implying that you wouldn't pay taxes?  In the US you are required to file  taxes on any income, whether it is paid in cash or not. 

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#63 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 08:49 PM
 
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I am really surprised at the number of people on the UC thread that seem to think that how things are run now is how things will be run in 10-20 years.

 

 

 



I'm curious what has changed so drastically in the last 10-20 years (or any previous 10-20 years in the last few hundred years) that would make it plausible that things will change so drastically in the next 10-20 years? Societies are notoriously slow to change.

 

ETA: I realize it is possible the US is headed for some major economic issues, etc. but even when other societies have experienced similar situations, things only changed so much. I can see having a contingency plan in the case of a major disaster but it sort of seems like there's a point where disaster is being planned for against all odds to the contrary.

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#64 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 08:49 PM
 
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This.

 

Hell, using the internet is more detrimental to "anonymity" than having a SSN.  Even if someone posted, for example, the first and middle names of their child-- if it was an unusual spelling, google could bring up all kinds of information on you, last names, addresses, you name it.



 

 

 

Bailey - I don't think your children will be as anonymous as you think, just by virtue of not having a ss#

 

Having a pretty  big presence on the internet is worse than having a SS#.  Things like articles in the Dairy Star about your baby being born, with your last name and parents' names can be very troubling :(

 

If anything, you might just make things more difficult for them with the government.  Imagine Little Claira being accused of a crime and not being able to prove who she is.
 

 

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#65 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 08:52 PM
 
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Yes. This is exactly what I meant by gross. What 'disgusts' me is that fact that family can't take care of their own when they are struggling, that we don't take care of our elder's, that being charitable means giving to a charity and not to someone you personally know or have seen around town that needs help, that we have to decide where and how we have our children just so that they can have insurance, drive a car, have a job, and to have to have a Birth Cert. to prove your were born?! How else did I get on Earth? Fall off the moon? Having children in hospitals, in consolidated schools, and having SSN is all relatively new compared to the age of our country.

 

I am not sure where I said that I don't pay taxes, because trust me, we do. But I don't see having my taxes deducted because of having children as a good reason to get a SSN for them. I am really surprised at the number of people on the UC thread that seem to think that how things are run now is how things will be run in 10-20 years.

 

 

 


Yes this.

 

Change is possible! Particularly when talking in the time frame of raising an entire human being to adulthood!

 

Also, why does being paid under the table need imply a $10/hr job?! If you are creative and have a skill set that is worth something to someone else, then there will be some way to be paid relatively anonymously should that be what you want! 

 

And, talking about taxes. The funny thing there is that they are considered 'technically' 'voluntary'....except that there's the whole threat of violence to your person and property should you NOT pay them....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6q0slMhDw8&noredirect=1

 

I'm sure we're all aware of this video...

 

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#66 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:14 PM
 
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Yes this.

 

Change is possible! Particularly when talking in the time frame of raising an entire human being to adulthood!

 



The time frame or raising an entire human being to adulthood is a lot shorter than you seem to think. DS1 is 18, and except for rising prices, and a lot more wireless/mobile technology, things haven't changed all that much, or in very profound ways.

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#67 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:16 PM
 
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If you honestly think the taxes you pay go to your roads... you gotta do a little more research.  The IRS is not run by the government... How bout this for all interested, take a look at a few sights, you have to shift through it all a bit and throw out the garbage but there is some good info on these forums.  As far as this not being a UC conversation, I think it is.  UC is more than just doing it alone it's about why you're doing it as well.  Theres so much more involved than just thinking you'll be more comfortable at home.

 

LunaticOutpost

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Good places to start. 

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#68 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:21 PM
 
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Also look into how many highways/freeways are actually owned by outside sources.  However I never find these decisions need to be black and white.  It's best to stay in the gray area. 

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#69 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:28 PM
 
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Yes. This is exactly what I meant by gross. What 'disgusts' me is that fact that family can't take care of their own when they are struggling, that we don't take care of our elder's, that being charitable means giving to a charity and not to someone you personally know or have seen around town that needs help, that we have to decide where and how we have our children just so that they can have insurance, drive a car, have a job, and to have to have a Birth Cert. to prove your were born?! How else did I get on Earth? Fall off the moon? Having children in hospitals, in consolidated schools, and having SSN is all relatively new compared to the age of our country.

 

I am not sure where I said that I don't pay taxes, because trust me, we do. But I don't see having my taxes deducted because of having children as a good reason to get a SSN for them. I am really surprised at the number of people on the UC thread that seem to think that how things are run now is how things will be run in 10-20 years.

 

 

 




Ummm, birth certificates arent meant to prove that you were born. They are to prove who you were born to, who you are descended from, and where you were born.


SSNs and BC's might not have been the norm a long time ago, but they are now. And I think we can all agree that society doesnt work the way it used to, plus there are a few extra billion people here. People have been saying that there isnt going to be any social security for a good long time now, and lo and behold, it still exists. And not just for old people.

If you and your partner died, your child would be eligible for your social security. But not without an SSN#.

If you and your partner died, your child could be adopted by a family member (family taking care of its own, and all that jazz) after a good stint away from them. Do you think that any social worker is going to leave some kid on a farm somewhere with no identity? With her "grandparents" that they dont even know if its her actual family or not? No. What a hellacious experience for a child who just lost her parents.

If your kid was diagnosed with some treatable long term illness, can you afford all the treatments yourself, out of pocket? Health insurance might be nice for that, but you gotsta have a BC for that. Do you know what people did back before they had things like health insurance or consolidated schools or birthed them in hospitals? Their children died when stricken with terminal illness. Maybe you are rich, and can afford to pay for it, or maybe you are just so old school that you just wouldnt treat it because after all, compared to the age of our country modern medicine is relatively new.

You must have a passport to travel to Canada and Mexico now, so your child may not leave the United States without a SSN. Oh, wait, you can leave, you just cant come back in.


My mother controlled and manipulated my siblings by keeping them from getting state ID's because she was afraid they would get a job and have money to move out of the house. The result? They both spent time in adult jail before they were 18 because they had no identification, and when you are 16-17 and arrested without an ID that is where they take you until your mommy can bring your birth certificate down to the jail and prove that you arent an adult. Luckily, my mother had their birth certificates. If they had no record whatsoever about how old they were, then they just would have stayed in jail with all the big kids.

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#70 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:49 PM
 
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You can't even buy alcohol without a government issued ID card. You would be stuck making it in your bathtub your entire adult life!
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#71 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:50 PM
 
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All this has been very interesting, I don't want to comment on it all, I just wanted to throw in this: While I was going through the hellacious process of trying to get my son's BC, I met an older couple (during one of my 2 hour waits at vital records). The man was in his sixties, a war veteran, had all kinds of information about himself, BUT not the specific info that the state wanted for the BC. There was not one single document that contained, together,  1) birthdate, 2) birthplace, 3) parents. Because this was an older man, he didn't have witnesses from his birth. Because he was from rural Louisiana, there were no early medical records. Despite having served in the army, fighting a war, his military record was not sufficient because it did not have ALL the information. I say this because, while I do understand the desire to stay "under the radar", THIS is the reality of trying to do it later when your children "have a choice". As it goes, they may not have a choice in the end. 2cents.gif

 


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#72 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 09:51 PM
 
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Alcohol= gross.

You know, like "disgusts me" gross, not like tastes gross.

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#73 of 406 Old 11-28-2011, 10:27 PM
 
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I don't care what anyone does and its certainly an interesting conversation but I can't get stop laughing with the 'I dont want the government tracking me' anonymity stuff.  Its really hard to get past that. 

 

 

As soon as you hit 'enter' in google, your interests, lifestyle, location - all registered and stored in a database.   As soon as you register for email, order anything, etc - it ALL leaves a paper trail.   More info and much more indemnifying info then a simple SSN. 

 

Its one thing to have your info in the hands of the government.  But in the case of internet and cell phone use? You are willingly leaving all of your info, and more, in the hands of a corporation AND governement (or at least can always be subpeoned by a government.) Personally? Call me a loony, but I'd opt for the former. +

 

 

(And SSNs are not exactly the easiest way to track people - hence why the telecom corporations end up getting requested for info as much as they do)

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#74 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 12:42 AM
 
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I'd wish that those claiming that they do not need the State would show us a picture of their life. I bet that there are many many things which have been provided by the State and which have been gladly included in your daily life. I say hypocrites.

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#75 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:05 AM
 
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Didn't read all the replies, so sorry if this covers something already said. I believe birth certificates and SS# are two different forms. That said, my prof just a few years back ('08) said that one of the perks to homebirth is that you don't HAVE TO apply for a SS#. He and his wife never sent in the paperwork, and their children can apply when they are 18. He said he didn't want to make the decision for them, but he has to file for a special tax id code for each of them or just not claim them on taxes. They homeschool and wouldn't ever apply for govt anything, so this is doable for them.

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#76 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:14 AM
 
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Well, I can "imagine" living in Narnia, but that doesn't make it possible.  No, you can't live without threat of violence without the State.  Because without a form of government, you're living in a social situation called "anarchy."  Which is pretty much synonymous with threat of violence.  Avoiding anarchy/chaos and being able to raise our children in safety IS-- I repeat, IS-- the reason that we have created government.  It wasn't so that we could get that gross icky Social Security when we get old.

 

I agree with others that arranging your life so that you can more effectively evade taxes doesn't make you a smart rebel, it just makes you a selfish criminal who benefits from the hard work and taxes of others.  

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 Some of us think that the State doesn't NEED to exist and would like to have options of living outside of it without threat of violence. Others, like what the state offers and can't understand the rest of us. And quite a lot of people just can't imagine living any other way than with a State. 


 

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#77 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:15 AM
 
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Nobody is saying it's not doable.  It's about whether or not it's really a good idea.  How it will effect the child in the long run and the consequences if something were to happen to the parents.  Should we all have a code to who we are... no.  However, the way things are now it's very difficult to go without you "Papers".

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#78 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:22 AM
 
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Wow. That is interesting. Too much work for me. I just vote for who ever will leave me and my family alone the most.

 


 

Um, how do you vote without registering to vote with proper documentation?

 

In MN you need:

 

  • Both 1) a photo ID from the list below, and 2) a current bill from the list below with your current name and address in the precinct

 

 Photo IDs (may be expired)   Bills (delivered electronically or by mail)
  • Minnesota Driver's License
  • Minnesota ID Card
  • United States Passport
  • United States Military ID Card
  • Tribal ID Card
  • Minnesota University, College, or Technical College ID Card

 

 


 

  • Utility bill due within 30 days of election day:
    • Telephone (landline, cell, VOIP, etc.) 
    • TV (cable, satellite, etc.)
    • Internet services
    • Electric
    • Gas
    • Solid Waste
    • Sewer Services
    • Water 
  • Rent statement dated within 30 days of election day that itemizes utilities
  • Current student fee statement

 

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#79 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pregnova View Post


Yes this.

 

Change is possible! Particularly when talking in the time frame of raising an entire human being to adulthood!

 

Also, why does being paid under the table need imply a $10/hr job?! If you are creative and have a skill set that is worth something to someone else, then there will be some way to be paid relatively anonymously should that be what you want! 

 

And, talking about taxes. The funny thing there is that they are considered 'technically' 'voluntary'....except that there's the whole threat of violence to your person and property should you NOT pay them....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6q0slMhDw8&noredirect=1

 

I'm sure we're all aware of this video...

 


 

Personally I think $10 an hour for an under the table, cash job is probably a bit high.  I mean, even if you worked at ... say Caribou Coffee with a full SSN and all you are probably making about $10.  I think $10 is more than the average for someone working for cash.

 

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#80 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:29 AM
 
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 What's the harm of just getting an SSN, exactly?

 

It's not like it comes with a required microchip that they stick in your neck!  If you get one, all the government knows  is you were born and registered at some point.   If you never use it for anything, it's not like they can magically find you and create a life history for you out of nothing.  It's only a data tracking tool, not a person-tracking tool.

 

You can, at any point, choose to stop using it and go off-grid and cash-economy, and all the SSA will know is that there's no activity reported on your SSN.

 

In other words, just having one doesn't mean much, if you choose not to use it.   If you get one and don't use it, you can allow your child to decide whether they want to use it when they are old enough to understand the implications, but if you don't get one, its much much harder for your child to get one if they decide the benefits are worth the risks.


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#81 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:52 AM
 
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all i have to say is that dh and i are anarchists.  actual, old school anarchists.  and our kid(s) have a ssn and birth certificates.  i think doing something otherwise is pretty nuts. 

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#82 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 05:58 AM
 
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DH and I are also anarchists and our kid(s) have a ssn and birth certificate. Lets try to keep this about ssn's and birth certificates.
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#83 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 06:12 AM
 
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i was trying to make the point that opposition to the state etc. doesn't necessitate depriving your kid of the ability to live a life of his/her choosing, albeit stating it poorly.

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#84 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 06:13 AM
 
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I trust that all those who are hiding from "the Man" and evading taxes are not using the roads, parks, and other public goods that are paid by my income taxes.



Who said anything about hiding from 'the man' and evading taxes??  I work, and I pay MORE taxes b/c there are two children that I don't get deductions for.

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#85 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 06:29 AM
 
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Right, but anything different that what ever everyone else is doing is demonized as trying to evade "doing your part". 
 

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Who said anything about hiding from 'the man' and evading taxes??  I work, and I pay MORE taxes b/c there are two children that I don't get deductions for.


 

 

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#86 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 06:43 AM
 
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Well, the original reason for not getting a SSN is to be "untrackable" by The Man.

 

And, pregnova is talking about evading taxes.   Here:

"Also, why does being paid under the table need imply a $10/hr job?! If you are creative and have a skill set that is worth something to someone else, then there will be some way to be paid relatively anonymously should that be what you want!



And, talking about taxes. The funny thing there is that they are considered 'technically' 'voluntary'....except that there's the whole threat of violence to your person and property should you NOT pay them.... "

 

And here :

"Well, if you want someone to come on here and tell you that they don't pay taxes, I'd imagine that'd be considered illegal right?



So, if anyone is managing that one, then I'd doubt they'd post about it. lol but obviously that's the clear path to living under the grid.



There are a lot of grey areas to the law, a lot of things that aren't entirely clear, particularly if you are a person who is LOOKING for those loopholes so that you can live outside the system." 
 

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Who said anything about hiding from 'the man' and evading taxes??  I work, and I pay MORE taxes b/c there are two children that I don't get deductions for.



 

 


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#87 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 06:47 AM
 
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Who said anything about hiding from 'the man' and evading taxes??  I work, and I pay MORE taxes b/c there are two children that I don't get deductions for.


 

She later backtracked, as she has done throughout this thread, but regardless, it was stated.  I'm sure someone will come up with another brilliant explanation for such a statement, like how she was just hoping to avoid some other tax.  It was mentioned by at least one other person on this thread as well.


 

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Anonymity and not being taxed, or tracked, etc. is the main reason. As far as bank account, mortgage, getting a job: Bank account in not a big deal. Get a safe in your house, live debt free, pay as you go, etc. Mortgage: buy a for sale by owner home or a rent to own home. Jobs: find a cash only job, etc. There's a lot of illegals with no SSN that get jobs. Or farm, which we do. State ID and driving is the only problem that will have to be worked out.

 

I'm not trying to be combative but there are plenty of good reasons not to have a national tracking number.



 

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#88 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 06:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post


Anonymity and not being taxed, or tracked, etc. is the main reason. As far as bank account, mortgage, getting a job: Bank account in not a big deal. Get a safe in your house, live debt free, pay as you go, etc. Mortgage: buy a for sale by owner home or a rent to own home. Jobs: find a cash only job, etc. There's a lot of illegals with no SSN that get jobs. Or farm, which we do. State ID and driving is the only problem that will have to be worked out.

 

I'm not trying to be combative but there are plenty of good reasons not to have a national tracking number.

Interesting idea about farming. What would you say about, say, a dairy farmer in MN who has received a cool half million in government subsidies?  Gross, indeed. 

 

http://farm.ewg.org/persondetail.php?custnumber=A06493416&summlevel=detail

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#89 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 07:14 AM
 
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Yeah, you're pretty much on the government radar already if you farm. SSNs or no.

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#90 of 406 Old 11-29-2011, 08:04 AM
 
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Eh, either way it's interesting.  You can't be off the grid and have interent unless...  You can't be off the grid and have a phone or drive a licensed vehicle.  You can't be off the grid if you own land... that is taxed... yearly.  You pay taxes for everything you buy... unless you steal it.  People who are truely off the grid do not have it easy.  I know people who have tried and more than once found themselves asking others for help in the way of food or other necessities. 

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