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#181 of 406 Old 02-02-2012, 07:18 PM
 
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I am not a republican. And we have already established that I wasn't meaning people accepting help when they need it to be gross.

 

My/our views on this issue actually have more to do with our faith than anything political.

 

I would suggest all stay away from the whole Republican vs. Democrat dichotomy. It is really a farce meant to distract the chattel. Though politically they may seem different, both parties are really working for the same agenda. Just ask Fascist Bush Jr. or Socialist Obama....same thing, different name.

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#182 of 406 Old 02-02-2012, 08:35 PM
 
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Most States only require a SSN for a driver's license if you have one:

 

States that require an SSN for a driver's license with no exceptions (4):

DC, GA, HI, and NJ.

 

States that don't require an SSN for a driver's license (6):

KS, MD, MN, MS, OR, and VT.

 

States that require an SSN for a driver's license only of people who have been assigned one or are eligible for one (37):

AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, DE, FL, ID, IN, KY, LA, ME, MA, MI, MO, MT, NE, NV, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA, WV, WI, and WY.

  • AZ, CO, IN, MO, RI, TN, WI, and WY allow applicants without SSNs to submit an affidavit stating that they have either never been issued an SSN or are ineligible for one.
  • AL (also requires proof of lawful presence for at least six months), ID, KY, LA, MA, MT, NY, ND, PA, SC, TX, and VA require applicants without SSNs to submit verification from the SSA that none has been assigned or a denial letter from the SSA.
  • The following states allow applicants without SSNs to submit an ITIN: KY, PA (also requires denial letter from SSA), RI, UT, and WV.
  • AL, CA, ID, NE, and NM require applicants without SSNs to verify lawful presence.

States that require an SSN but have other exceptions to the rule (5):

  • CT and NH require SSNs only of new applicants.
  • IL and KY provide a religious objection-exemption to the SSN requirement.
  • IA does not require SSNs of nonimmigrants.
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#183 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#184 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 10:29 AM
 
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Wow, this thread is huge - so forgive me for only reading the first 5 pages.  I just wanted to say IMO please get documentation for your kids.  My parents attempted give us the "off the grid lifestyle" and it was such a nightmare to do ANYTHING as we got older.  I finally got my crap together, but my older bother has had the worst time.  I truly think it has negatively affected his whole quality of life and incredible stunted him in all aspects: financial and emotional.    

 

I don't understand the suggestions that your kid work his whole life under the table and never be able to get a loan to buy a car or a house, start a business or leave the country?  That isn't freedom - it's the opposite.  You want a kid to have to work until he can save a few hundred thousand dollars in cash stuffed under his mattress to buy a home?  And you think someone would take that money if he/she could?  What?  The seller is reporting taxes even if your kid isn't!  Do you know how being an adult works?

 

Ugh.  Sorry. The whole idea seems so naive to me.  I guess because I experienced the huge headache first hand.  And I don't see any benefit whatsoever.

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#185 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 04:48 PM
 
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WOW.  The level of paranoia is truly mind boggling to me.  Serious question though, if this country is so hell bent on controlling you and you literally have to hide yourself and your children from it why don't you leave?  If I was living somewhere I felt was out to get me at every turn I would be out of there.  There is a whole wide world out there that you could live in paranoia free.

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WOW.  The level of paranoia is truly mind boggling to me.  Serious question though, if this country is so hell bent on controlling you and you literally have to hide yourself and your children from it why don't you leave?  If I was living somewhere I felt was out to get me at every turn I would be out of there.  There is a whole wide world out there that you could live in paranoia free.


 

It is not paranoia. It is a fact that the state can dictate how you raise your children.  Parens Patriae is a fact. The state is the supreme guardian of your child and you have been granted conditional custody. Break one of those conditions and see if the state takes your child. You need to wake up.

 

 

In Ohio, to home school your child, each year you have to submit an education plan with the school districts superintendent. He/she has to approve your educational plan and ensure you child receives enough educational hours. Yes, your child has to put in the same amount of hours and days required of public school. In addition, your child will be given state tests as necessary to ensure it is being educated to Public School standard. I want to educate my child at a level above public school standard and will educate my child as much or as little as necessary depending on the speed my child learns!

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#187 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 05:48 PM
 
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Wow, this thread is huge - so forgive me for only reading the first 5 pages.  I just wanted to say IMO please get documentation for your kids.  My parents attempted give us the "off the grid lifestyle" and it was such a nightmare to do ANYTHING as we got older.  I finally got my crap together, but my older bother has had the worst time.  I truly think it has negatively affected his whole quality of life and incredible stunted him in all aspects: financial and emotional.    

 

I don't understand the suggestions that your kid work his whole life under the table and never be able to get a loan to buy a car or a house, start a business or leave the country?  That isn't freedom - it's the opposite.  You want a kid to have to work until he can save a few hundred thousand dollars in cash stuffed under his mattress to buy a home?  And you think someone would take that money if he/she could?  What?  The seller is reporting taxes even if your kid isn't!  Do you know how being an adult works?

 

Ugh.  Sorry. The whole idea seems so naive to me.  I guess because I experienced the huge headache first hand.  And I don't see any benefit whatsoever.

 

I am not sure where your parents went wrong in taking you off the grid. If they would have had the proper documents in place, there is no reason you couldn't prove you were born in this country and therefore get a SSN. You really do not need a birth certificate as all it does is prove your were born in this country. In lieu of this all you need are 2-3 affidavits of witnesses of your birth, any medical records, baptism records, etc... Those things will get you a passport and together with a passport you should be able to easily get a SSN. Are you off the grid with a passport, no. You'll have an FBI file, but I am not after off the grid; I just want to raise my children according to my beliefs without state interference. At least you wont be in Vital Records (Human Resources) a part of the Department of Commerce.

 

Personally, i was born in the late 70's. They didn't automatically issue SSN then. I had to apply for mine at 16, ignorant as I was. Since I was from Oregon, I was able to get a DL without a SSN. A job, as far as I knew, required it so I got it. It wasn't hard to get at all. Though times have changed.

 

 

Seriously, look up the true definition of what a resource is. Cattle are resources...it's a wonder people are called CHATTEL or SHEEP!
 

 

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#188 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 05:58 PM
 
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Ok...you seem to miss my point.  Parens Patriae is real and often used in defense of children who are being beaten and neglected by their parents.  It is the reason these children can find a safe harbor from unfit parents who refuse to give them a better life.  The paranoia is believing that the government is going to invoke it on an innocent family and wrongly take their children.  Sure the hospital may be misguided and call CPS on you but there would be no leg for them to stand on as far as them removing them from your home.  I myself had this happen and you know what happened when CPS arrived, I  discussed it with them, gave them my reasons and a handshake and went on my way to never hear from them again.   They don't want to take children from good homes they want to save children from bad ones.

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#190 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 06:54 PM
 
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Honestly I wasnt refering to you as much as I was AKKARIN.  It sounded to me like she very much believes that the government may swoop in and steal her children from her since in her translation of the whole Parens Patriae thing was pretty much that you are handing over of your children to the government upon birth allowing them to be in the system and are in fact just being allowed custody of them.  It makes no difference to me either way if your children get BC or not.  We may have polar opposite views on the government and society but you seem well educated and I'm sure are making sure you are securing all the documentation you may need later down the road.  I just am surprised that there are people who are so sure our govt is out to get us and cant fathom why you would continue to live under such conditions. 

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#191 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 07:36 PM
 
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This isn't new though.  Lots of families have for years stayed away from the SSI and birth certificate.  The only thing that really got them in the end was not being able to claim SSI when needed and not being able use services that were needed.   I have no issue with not getting those items.  Honestly I worked for the Gov't in the big glass maze.  They hire really smart absolutely stupid people.  No way in heck unless you purposely put yourself on their radar will they even give a rats azz about you.
 

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It's not paranoia, it's stuff like National Defense Authorization Act and Agenda 21 and Homeland Security. I'm not paranoid about the gov't coming to get me and my family I just was wondering if any UC'ers didn't get papers for their children. I'm not trying to dictate how they live the rest of their lives but actually giving them more options since they won't automatically have papers and be in the "system". I can't not have a BC or SSN since I had them at birth. I see our country changing really fast and think that it is the gov't that is paranoid or trying to act paranoid in order to get what they want. I just want to make sure that my children have more options........and I was just plain curious if anybody had experience with it. It's not like I can walk into a gov't admin building and say, "If I had a baby at home by myself and didn't ever get him/her a birth certificate, what would happen?" That might cause some issues.



 

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#192 of 406 Old 02-03-2012, 08:31 PM
 
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Honestly I wasnt refering to you as much as I was AKKARIN.  It sounded to me like she very much believes that the government may swoop in and steal her children from her since in her translation of the whole Parens Patriae thing was pretty much that you are handing over of your children to the government upon birth allowing them to be in the system and are in fact just being allowed custody of them.  It makes no difference to me either way if your children get BC or not.  We may have polar opposite views on the government and society but you seem well educated and I'm sure are making sure you are securing all the documentation you may need later down the road.  I just am surprised that there are people who are so sure our govt is out to get us and cant fathom why you would continue to live under such conditions. 



I never said the government was out to get me, my children, or even yours. You are twisting my words. You also are missing my point in regards to CPS being called. My point was I shouldn't have been threatened with CPS taking my child because I wanted to leave the hospital before the policy of 48hrs. My point is, I do not want the government to dictate to me how I should educate my child. I sure as hell well do a better job, for far less money, then the public schooling system. Did you know it averages 1000 a year to homes school while public school costs about 10,000 a student?

In regards to Parens Patriae, it is there to for good reasons, yes, but it does take children away from good people as well. Let me place a scenario in front of you to try again to illustrate the dangers posed by Parens Patriae. Let’s say I had a child with a terminal illness and that child was able to live longer because of medication given. The side effects though cause enormous amount of pain/discomfort that I begin to wonder whether living is the best thing for my child. After spending time considering the matter I choose to take my child off the medication knowing that my child will not be with me much longer. The upside is, my child feels better for a time and we enjoy the time left...until the day my child dies.

Now the state finds out that I stopped administering doctor prescribed medicine to my child thus resulting in the death of the child. Even though my child had a terminal illness, the State pursues manslaughter charges because I chose, as my child's parent, to stop administering meds. If I was the true guardian of that child, then the state couldn't do a thing. Since the state is that child’s supreme guardian, it can pursue charges.

 

On a personal note, my mother had me in school and the school told her that if I did not get my vaccine booster shots, I would be removed from the roster and not allowed to attend. My mother complied ignorantly and I had a reaction to the vaccine. I have suffered all my life from that reaction. Pertussis is known to cause encephalitis (swelling of the brain) in some patients and it happened to me. I had a pretty severe reaction and there was no recourse for me as a: no one knew it was caused by the vaccine; B, there was no legal recourse for vaccine related injuries in the 80's....until 89. The average payout for a vaccine reaction is roughly 750,000. I'll see none of that and I have to move forward with my life partially disabled. It has certainly been a tough road up until now because no one understood me. Always treating me like a "normal" child when I was no longer "normal". It made it very difficult to try to live up to others expectations. This is why I question our government. It knows people react, but the general feeling is that it affects a small percentage of the population that it is willing for this to occur to people for the greater good; it will compensate those that react so long as the evidence is strong enough. To date it has paid out over 2 billion dollars to between 2-3 thousand individuals. Higher percentage then that have reacted, those are just the ones that actually won.

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#193 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 07:28 AM
 
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I don't understand the suggestions that your kid work his whole life under the table and never be able to get a loan to buy a car or a house, start a business or leave the country?  That isn't freedom - it's the opposite.  You want a kid to have to work until he can save a few hundred thousand dollars in cash stuffed under his mattress to buy a home?  And you think someone would take that money if he/she could?  What?  The seller is reporting taxes even if your kid isn't!  Do you know how being an adult works?

 

Ugh.  Sorry. The whole idea seems so naive to me.  I guess because I experienced the huge headache first hand.  And I don't see any benefit whatsoever.



The true cost of a 200,000 home at 5% interest after 360 payments are made:

 

$461,511.57

 

So you pay for 2 homes basically and only get 1.

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#194 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 07:44 AM
 
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Yes, but it's moving into a house at, say, 30 years old (and paying extra for not having the money but still "owning" the place) - versus renting AND saving to buy a house and being able to afford it at 60 years old (that way you also pay for 2 and only get 1, if you are lucky).

 

Also, I know a person who didn't have the birth certificate available, and it brought a ton of annoyances and problems with travel, passports, working overseas. So aggravating and not worth it. But what is annoying for one, might be someone else's cup of tea (probably the parent's, I wouldn't expect the child to enjoy the aftermath.)

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#195 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 11:19 AM
 
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Yes, but it's moving into a house at, say, 30 years old (and paying extra for not having the money but still "owning" the place) - versus renting AND saving to buy a house and being able to afford it at 60 years old (that way you also pay for 2 and only get 1, if you are lucky).

 

 

 

Ok, pay rent and save to purchase a house. While you rent you have no up keep, as the landlord covers all maintenance costs. The alternative is, you buy a place, pay more than double, and pay to maintain it. Renting plus saving money is the better option and helps keep housing prices from inflating as bad...but few have the discipline to achieve this.

 

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#196 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 11:20 AM
 
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The true cost of a 200,000 home at 5% interest after 360 payments are made:

$461,511.57




So you pay for 2 homes basically and only get 1.

Or you could do a 10-year mortgage which would only cost $250,000 'true cost'... Or buy a $100K house and all the numbers would be lower... but without some kind of mortgage, I think very few people would be able to buy a home. Did you seriously buy a $200K home in cash?

Your kid would have to rent for the ~30 years it takes him to save up $200K (at which point your kid would be 55 years old and have spent a good $500K in rent with nothing to show for it, not even accounting for how much rents will likely rise over 30 years!) and by that point houses may be twice as expensive or more. How does that save him money??? It's a fine path for someone to choose if that's what they want but to limit your kid's options so much that this is his ONLY option? How is that fair? And this doesn't even take into account that he'd need to save up hundreds of thousands of dollars for college (since he won't qualify for student loans) and without a college education he wouldn't be able to get a decent enough job to save up ANY money for a house in the first place...

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Or you could do a 10-year mortgage which would only cost $250,000 'true cost'... Or buy a $100K house and all the numbers would be lower... but without some kind of mortgage, I think very few people would be able to buy a home. Did you seriously buy a $200K home in cash?
Your kid would have to rent for the ~30 years it takes him to save up $200K (at which point your kid would be 55 years old and have spent a good $500K in rent with nothing to show for it, not even accounting for how much rents will likely rise over 30 years!) and by that point houses may be twice as expensive or more. How does that save him money??? It's a fine path for someone to choose if that's what they want but to limit your kid's options so much that this is his ONLY option? How is that fair? And this doesn't even take into account that he'd need to save up hundreds of thousands of dollars for college (since he won't qualify for student loans) and without a college education he wouldn't be able to get a decent enough job to save up ANY money for a house in the first place...

 

Sigh, nowhere did I say the child is forced into anything and I am not limiting the child's future; in actuality I am moving the burden from the state to me. You assume that because I choose not to BC or SSN my child, they wouldn't ever be able to choose to get a SSN (i got my SSN at 16). That is incorrect. You can get a SSN without a BC as long as you can prove you were born in the country (affidavits, medical records, passport). If the child so chooses, a SSN is only an interview away...in the future.

You've also lumped my argument in with others as my angle on this issue is keeping the state out of raising of my child. What the child chooses to do when it becomes an adult is up to it.

 

BTW some people believe the charging/paying of interest as a sin. Now while you may not believe in the bible, consider the trouble you can get yourself into with loans.

 

 

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#198 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 01:37 PM
 
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There's no use in me saying anything further. I completely & totally disagree with you & there is no way I can even begin to comprehend why you would make things unnecessarily difficult for your child.

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#199 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 01:42 PM
 
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to prove a point I guess?

 

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There's no use in me saying anything further. I completely & totally disagree with you & there is no way I can even begin to comprehend why you would make things unnecessarily difficult for your child.


 

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Exactly what I was thinking.  Not sure I would personally use my kids as a social statement but to each his own.

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to prove a point I guess?

 

 

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#201 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#202 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#203 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 06:25 PM
 
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Ok sorry to digress but...naming your kid after a important nazi.  Forget BC and SS#'s, now that is setting your kid up for failure!  Yikes.  Not saying the child should have been removed but again, yikes!

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I guess I'm bothered by "oh they can get a SSN when they're 16 if they choose" -- it may not be that easy! It could take years. They could have lots of hassles, as others on this thread have experienced first-hand.

And what I'm REALLY confused about is, do you think that if you don't have a SSN or BC that CPS can't take your kids if you're an unfit parent???
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#205 of 406 Old 02-04-2012, 09:56 PM
 
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I guess I'm bothered by "oh they can get a SSN when they're 16 if they choose" -- it may not be that easy! It could take years. They could have lots of hassles, as others on this thread have experienced first-hand.
And what I'm REALLY confused about is, do you think that if you don't have a SSN or BC that CPS can't take your kids if you're an unfit parent???

cruncy_mommy, i'll say this again. I GOT MY SSN at 16! It did not take years, because back in the 70's they were not automatically issued...or at least my mother didn't apply to get me one. SSN are completely voluntary, it is not mandatory so you can opt-in at anytime, you just can't opt-out.

 

If your child does not have a BC/SSN, then it is not a ward of the state; absent a marriage license, the state has no claim or jurisdiction over the child. Therefore removal of child by CPS would be kidnapping. The US has to have jurisdiction over the child to remove it into it's custody.

This is somewhat difficult to explain, because you have to understand jurisdiction and when it applies. US has jurisdiction over all it's CITIZENS ONLY! You automatically qualify to become a citizen upon birth on US soil, but you have to fill out the paperwork to claim that right (if it is a right you want).

 

I can not stress this enough people. If you properly prove your childs birth through witnesses (2-3) and medical records, you can/your child can, at any time, submit an application for a SSN. A birth certificate is not needed as all it does is prove your birth...kind of redundant! There is a greater amount of difficulty as more time passes because they have a harder time ensuring you are telling the truth. Hospitals keep records for what 3-7 years and then archive them? Archives aren't always reliable. That is why you, the parent, must keep good records.

 

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#206 of 406 Old 02-05-2012, 03:20 AM
 
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Other 200 countries in the world do not care about the SSN. Not one bit.

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#207 of 406 Old 02-05-2012, 06:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post

cruncy_mommy, i'll say this again. I GOT MY SSN at 16! It did not take years, because back in the 70's they were not automatically issued...or at least my mother didn't apply to get me one. SSN are completely voluntary, it is not mandatory so you can opt-in at anytime, you just can't opt-out.
But here in 2012 they ARE automatically issued. By the time your kid reaches 16/18 it would be 2030... you are banking on getting a SSN being just as easy then as they were when you were a kid?! WITHOUT a BC??? And you can google for stories of how long it takes some people to get a SSN, even with all the proper documentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post

If your child does not have a BC/SSN, then it is not a ward of the state; absent a marriage license, the state has no claim or jurisdiction over the child. Therefore removal of child by CPS would be kidnapping. The US has to have jurisdiction over the child to remove it into it's custody.
This is somewhat difficult to explain, because you have to understand jurisdiction and when it applies. US has jurisdiction over all it's CITIZENS ONLY! You automatically qualify to become a citizen upon birth on US soil, but you have to fill out the paperwork to claim that right (if it is a right you want).
So you think CPS will come investigate you for possible abuse & then when they go to take your kid, "Oh, he doesn't have a SSN, we'll just have to leave him here with his abusive parents." ?!??!?!! (BTW I am not in any way applying you are/would be an abusive parent!!)

Also, I can't find anything to support your claim that if you don't get a BC, you aren't a citizen.

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#208 of 406 Old 02-05-2012, 07:37 AM
 
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Akkarin---having worked in child welfare, I can assure you cps can and will remove a child without a bc or ssn if necessary. That's a bad reason not to have one.  Not sure where you got the idea that it will protect you. 

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#209 of 406 Old 02-05-2012, 10:19 AM
 
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I agree that it is an interesting discussion, and honestly never meant to attack, or to bring up any political argument (I also hate politics myself, was just illustrating why my parents think the way they do). I just wanted to offer my perspective from the situation of my family. 


Kendra (30),  mum to ds fly-by-nursing1.gif(2/14/11), and one angel1.gif. Pregnant with my rainbow1284.gif due 6/10/13, it's a GIRL!!!
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#210 of 406 Old 02-05-2012, 12:18 PM
 
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AKKARIN, so am I understanding you correctly.  Since you didn't get your child a birth cert or SS# you don't believe them to be citizens?  I am no expert but I don't believe it works that way.  I believe that regardless of your signing them up for the rights they are indeed citizens, like it or not.  Again why do you stay?  I am not being belligerent asking this question several times I just cant fathom what would keep you in this country.  If you truly dont want citizenship for your child why didn't you have them somewhere else so they wouldn't be faced with that "burden" at all?

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