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#241 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 09:30 AM
 
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#242 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 09:32 AM
 
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Also, things like birth certificates can be used to document an event of which one day you will not be around to tell about.  So, what happens if worst case scenario, your husband and you are both in a major car accident and are killed.  What happens to your now orphaned children who have no record of their existence?  They also now have no parent to confirm it.  Whoever cares for them decides school is a better option for them or they need to be on social services because their new caregiver can't afford them.  Or the kids end up with a catastrophic illness that requires days-weeks in the ICU and now you need some assistance to pay those bills (because try coming up with a million dollars in cash.  Think that would never happen?  Talk to my family--one day this past December everything was fine.  The next day, my father was in the ICU racking up a million dollar bill due to a sudden catastrophic illness that couldn't have easily been prevented, a 2 week ICU stay, a life flight, and an ambulance transfer.  Not only did he need proof of existence to get financial assistance, but he also had to rent life-saving medical equipment that would have been far too expensive to purchase for the month he'd need it)

 

I just don't get it.  America's not all evil (and if it is, move to the arctic because EVERY country has problems like this.  Especially in countries where there is socialized medical care.  If you don't want the government involved, move to an isolated island where there is no government.  Like it or not, you are part of SOCIETY--what you do affects us all.).  Why would you set your child up to be unable to travel, unable to receive life saving medical treatment, unable to receive government assistance in case the worst happens, or unable to even get an education if God forbid something happens to you.  Bad stuff happens...sometimes the worst comes true.  And that worst can lead to problems for your poor innocent children that are far greater than the government knowing what day your child was born.


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#243 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 09:53 AM
 
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Well, maybe they do not operate on what if's. 

 

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Originally Posted by AllyRae View Post

Also, things like birth certificates can be used to document an event of which one day you will not be around to tell about.  So, what happens if worst case scenario, your husband and you are both in a major car accident and are killed.  What happens to your now orphaned children who have no record of their existence?  They also now have no parent to confirm it.  Whoever cares for them decides school is a better option for them or they need to be on social services because their new caregiver can't afford them.  Or the kids end up with a catastrophic illness that requires days-weeks in the ICU and now you need some assistance to pay those bills (because try coming up with a million dollars in cash.  Think that would never happen?  Talk to my family--one day this past December everything was fine.  The next day, my father was in the ICU racking up a million dollar bill due to a sudden catastrophic illness that couldn't have easily been prevented, a 2 week ICU stay, a life flight, and an ambulance transfer.  Not only did he need proof of existence to get financial assistance, but he also had to rent life-saving medical equipment that would have been far too expensive to purchase for the month he'd need it)

 

I just don't get it.  America's not all evil (and if it is, move to the arctic because EVERY country has problems like this.  Especially in countries where there is socialized medical care.  If you don't want the government involved, move to an isolated island where there is no government.  Like it or not, you are part of SOCIETY--what you do affects us all.).  Why would you set your child up to be unable to travel, unable to receive life saving medical treatment, unable to receive government assistance in case the worst happens, or unable to even get an education if God forbid something happens to you.  Bad stuff happens...sometimes the worst comes true.  And that worst can lead to problems for your poor innocent children that are far greater than the government knowing what day your child was born.



 

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#244 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 10:02 AM
 
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I get why people don't want birth certificates for their kids, however, it seems like you're making a lot of decisions for your kids that they may not have wanted made for them when they're older. 

 

But I haven't read the entire thread...


In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you." Buddha

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#245 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 10:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

Well, maybe they do not operate on what if's. 

 



 


 

So they do not have car, home, life, and health insurance either?  No savings accounts?  No college funds (if not, well, good luck--can't get government loans without a BC or SSN, scholarships are hard to come by, and college is expensive.)

 

LOL, I can't live like that....I need to know my children are cared for if I can't do it.  Most people will insure things that are important to them.  A birth certificate is a form of insurance that the children will receive care if the parent is incapacitated. It is insurance that they are eligible for the rights and responsibilities granted with their United States citizenship.  It means they can go to state colleges, receive government-based educational scholarships and grants, get a government-based job, travel internationally, vote, and otherwise exercise their rights without having to go through the burden of proving they are worthy to receive them.  I think it's awesome that people are self-sufficient.  The world needs more people to be responsible for themselves.  But when people are so self-sufficient that they are not insured for the "what-ifs", the rest of us have to pick up the slack.  I can not imagine living a life where I am so afraid of living in my own country--I would renounce my citizenship and move (although most people seem to fantasize about what life in other countries is like....most countries have far fewer freedoms and far more tracking.)

 

The "what-ifs" will happen whether you plan for them or not.  I'd rather my kids not have the extra burden of proving they exist if they have to also face other huge tragedies.  My job as a parent is to make sure my children are taken care of...that means they are taken care of even if I can't do it.  We are pretty self sufficient people, but I like knowing my kids have the option for help if they need it.  We don't take what we don't need, but if something happens to me, I don't want my kids to have to spend previous time, resources, money, and energy fixing a situation I forced them into.  

 

And it can be really expensive and a PITA to get a birth certificate at any time other than the time of birth.  I had to spend a lot of time and money getting a birth certificate for my daughter when she was 10 months old.  Court hearings, paperwork, $$$$.  And this was even after we had proof of citizenship and adoption--I can NOT imagine the time and expense and effort I would have had to go through if there was no record of my child's existence.


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#246 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 10:22 AM
 
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While I disagree with not getting a SSI or BC.  I disagree with you as to why they should have them.  I get not wanting to be numbered and not wanting to fall in line.  I get that. 

 

I do not however believe that their not having any of those documents will directly affect anyone else.  That type of rhetoric is fear mongering and bullying.  And if you come back saying it will affect you... be prepared to prove it.  It's pretty far fetched.

 

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So they do not have car, home, life, and health insurance either?  No savings accounts?  No college funds (if not, well, good luck--can't get government loans without a BC or SSN, scholarships are hard to come by, and college is expensive.)

 

LOL, I can't live like that....I need to know my children are cared for if I can't do it.  Most people will insure things that are important to them.  A birth certificate is a form of insurance that the children will receive care if the parent is incapacitated.  I think it's awesome that people are self-sufficient.  The world needs more people to be responsible for themselves.  But when people are so self-sufficient that they are not insured for the "what-ifs", the rest of us have to pick up the slack.

 

The "what-ifs" will happen whether you plan for them or not.  I'd rather my kids not have the extra burden of proving they exist if they have to also face other huge tragedies.  My job as a parent is to make sure my children are taken care of...that means they are taken care of even if I can't do it.  We are pretty self sufficient people, but I like knowing my kids have the option for help if they need it.  We don't take what we don't need, but if something happens to me, I don't want my kids to have to spend previous time, resources, money, and energy fixing a situation I forced them into.  

 

And it can be really expensive and a PITA to get a birth certificate at any time other than the time of birth.  I had to spend a lot of time and money getting a birth certificate for my daughter when she was 10 months old.  Court hearings, paperwork, $$$$.  And this was even after we had proof of citizenship and adoption--I can NOT imagine the time and expense and effort I would have had to go through if there was no record of my child's existence.



 

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#247 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 10:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

While I disagree with not getting a SSI or BC.  I disagree with you as to why they should have them.  I get not wanting to be numbered and not wanting to fall in line.  I get that. 

 

I do not however believe that their not having any of those documents will directly affect anyone else.  That type of rhetoric is fear mongering and bullying.  And if you come back saying it will affect you... be prepared to prove it.  It's pretty far fetched.

 



 

 

Every decision you make affects others.  You do not live in a vacuum.  It is absolutely self-centered to think your actions do not have consequences.  Part of living in a society is understanding that every action you make has consequences, good or bad, to the other people in society.  We all pay for children who are under-educated because they can't get the degrees they need for a higher education (because college, while important now, will likely get even more important in 20 years when these un-BCed children enter the workforce...without a BC, it will be hard to obtain loans or scholarships.  It might be impossible to attend many colleges as well!).  Catastrophic illness hits and your unaccounted for child will cost the taxpayers just as much as they would if they were illegal immigrants (assuming your unaccounted for child is also uninsured...many insurance policies require all newly born children to have proof of birth).  Without the government having proof of existence, it's hard to require that person to pay the fair share of taxes, directly impacting everyone in the country.  And that's only if that child can get a job--as restrictions against illegal immigration are made stronger, more and more employers require proof of citizenship.  And many require proof to issue payment.  And then there are the forms you must fill out in order to be legally paid--all of them ask for proof of citizenship.  Hard to prove citizenship if you can't even prove you were born.  So now, you can't pay for your education, you can't legally work, and you don't pay taxes....the burden of all of these are placed on other people.  These issues impact EVERYONE.  Unfortunately, right or wrong, we are living in a society that has security measurements in place, and proper identification is paramount for survival in our society. But this isn't just an "American Problem"....you can go to Asia or Europe or virtually every other country, and you will have these same problems.  Only now you can't renounce your citizenship and move out of this evil empire that seeks to control your every move and thought ( ;) ) because you can't get a passport because you have no proof that you even exist.
 

Add to it the fact that, especially in the adoption world, it is coming to light that not being able to have actual documented proof of your birth and existence can have actual psychological effects.  These children are desperately fighting for birth certificates that they are being denied--they want that link to their past, they want that proof they exist.  They want that piece of paper that is proof of their identity.  While that may not be the case for biological children denied birth certificates by their parents, you just don't know how that will affect them.  Maybe they will share your beliefs, maybe not...  Not getting a BC because of "fear of the man" reeks of not only self-centeredness (not selfishness...I'm talking about the feeling that your actions just don't have consequences to other people), but an inability to see how these issues can impact not just the here-and-now, but other citizens in the country, and most importantly, your own child.  Why place a burden on your child when it was something so simple to do.  Why set them up to be denied the rights they are entitled to because of a fear of the unknown?  Why live in a country where you are so afraid of "the man" that you will deny your children the right to have documented proof of their existence?  Birth certificates are not just American products--every developed nation, and even those that are developing have a form of birth certificate or birth recording.  Even before birth certificates, many societies recorded births because this is just essential knowledge.  You aren't hiding your child from society--you are cutting your child off.  Protecting him from "the man" as an infant can mean placing an undue burden of proof on them when they are not longer living in your house.  It is directly impacting their future in a way that may not even be evident now (for example, when I was a child, you could go between the US and Canada without a passport.  Now, a passport is required.  You just don't know what changes will come that might really severely hamper your child's ability to live a fulfilling life.  All because of a fear of some unknown man.


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#248 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 10:43 AM
 
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The things you listed do not put the burden on you.  I think it's ridiculous not to get a SSI or BC, I would like all US citizens to be forced into the military that's the only way they can prove they're really paying their fair share... 

 

Ridiculous?

 

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Every decision you make affects others.  You do not live in a vacuum.  It is absolutely self-centered to think your actions do not have consequences.  Part of living in a society is understanding that every action you make has consequences, good or bad, to the other people in society.  We all pay for children who are under-educated because they can't get the degrees they need for a higher education (because college, while important now, will likely get even more important in 20 years when these un-BCed children enter the workforce...without a BC, it will be hard to obtain loans or scholarships.  It might be impossible to attend many colleges as well!).  Catastrophic illness hits and your unaccounted for child will cost the taxpayers just as much as they would if they were illegal immigrants (assuming your unaccounted for child is also uninsured...many insurance policies require all newly born children to have proof of birth).  Without the government having proof of existence, it's hard to require that person to pay the fair share of taxes, directly impacting everyone in the country.  And that's only if that child can get a job--as restrictions against illegal immigration are made stronger, more and more employers require proof of citizenship.  And many require proof to issue payment.  And then there are the forms you must fill out in order to be legally paid--all of them ask for proof of citizenship.  Hard to prove citizenship if you can't even prove you were born.  So now, you can't pay for your education, you can't legally work, and you don't pay taxes....the burden of all of these are placed on other people.  These issues impact EVERYONE.  Unfortunately, right or wrong, we are living in a society that has security measurements in place, and proper identification is paramount for survival in our society. But this isn't just an "American Problem"....you can go to Asia or Europe or virtually every other country, and you will have these same problems.  Only now you can't renounce your citizenship and move out of this evil empire that seeks to control your every move and thought ( ;) ) because you can't get a passport because you have no proof that you even exist.
 

 



 

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#249 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 10:48 AM
 
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The things you listed do not put the burden on you.  I think it's ridiculous not to get a SSI or BC, I would like all US citizens to be forced into the military that's the only way they can prove they're really paying their fair share... 

 

Ridiculous?

 



 

 

Apples and oranges.  You can serve society without being in the military.  It's a lot harder to serve society without the ability to work, pay taxes, receive an education, vote, obtain healthcare, or contribute to services that would impact other members of society (medicare & social security).  And who is it that subsidizes housing for people who can't work, have no way to legally earn a living, and still need housing?  While it may be possible to work NOW without proof of citizenship, what does one do if that changes?  That directly impacts one's ability to even obtain housing!  Even the homeless don't live in a vacuum--the citizens of the country still pay for shelters and assistance for the homeless (although not nearly enough....)
 

And yes, as a taxpaying contributing member, each of these DO impact me.  A person who can't legally vote impacts my life directly as much as someone who chooses not to vote.  A person who can't work or pay taxes or otherwise make contributions to society impacts me greatly.  Paying for the health care of someone not able to receive insurance drastically impacts me. Our citizenship doesn't just mean we're paying into the system--it means we are all working together and contributing AS WELL as receiving the benefits of our citizenship.  We are all directly impacted by the actions of our fellow citizens.


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#250 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:03 AM
 
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There are people who do feel that military servitude is important.  While you're concerned over who is and is not paying enough into the system, real US citizens are fighting wars for you to complain about your apples and oranges.  Fair share?  Seriously?  That's all you have?  If you're so concerned about fair share you would start considering ALL... just not yourself and your fair share.  Do you believe in the pay to play system?  People that tout the fair share message are generally those who would begrudge an elderly lady a stipend because it takes from their pot and the elderly lady no longer Pays to Play.

 

Lots of people can not legally vote.  Do you need me to tell you who they are?  They're citizens. 

Paying for health care is one thing, but begrudging someone health care because they don't or can't Pay to Play is another thing.

 

Honestly who are you to decide who is worthy?  Are you even worthy?  Are you actually paying all your taxes and not taking from the Gov't one little penny? 

And what do you consider a contribution to society?  Rapists are allowed out to clean the roads.  They make your license plates.  They're contributing.  They're worthy.

 

Kind of think you just don't like anyone who doesn't tow the line.  And that's fine.  People who don't tow the line probably don't like you either.

 

As a side note.  I'm a DV.  And I work full time.  I pay my taxes and I fought for everyones right for freedom... Not just the people you feel are worthy. 

 

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Apples and oranges.  You can serve society without being in the military.  It's a lot harder to serve society without the ability to work, pay taxes, receive an education, vote, obtain healthcare, or contribute to services that would impact other members of society (medicare & social security).  
 

And yes, as a taxpaying contributing member, each of these DO impact me.  A person who can't legally vote impacts my life directly as much as someone who chooses not to vote.  A person who can't work or pay taxes or otherwise make contributions to society impacts me greatly.  Paying for the health care of someone not able to receive insurance drastically impacts me. Our citizenship doesn't just mean we're paying into the system--it means we are all working together and contributing AS WELL as receiving the benefits of our citizenship.  We are all directly impacted by the actions of our fellow citizens.



 

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#251 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:22 AM
 
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I think it's great that so many HSers do so well! All the folks I know who homeschool are doing a wonderful job of it. You seem to be saying that this fact means HS parents shouldn't be required to demonstrate that their kids are learning anything. If parents want to teach their kids above and beyond the state standards, great! But I don't see why state-mandated educational standards shouldn't apply to everyone.
You may joke about kids playing video games all day in lieu of learning to read. But anyone who's been at MDC awhile - and I know you have - has read those heartbreaking threads by parents whose children do exactly that (and I know it's a minority). I think it's tragic, not funny.
But yeah, this has gotten far from birth certificates...


Bolding mine - yes it has.

 

I think people should get their kids BC, for all the reasons mentioned previously. 

 

I don't think the state should impose its standards on HS kids, and here is why:

 

1.  My youngest learned to read late, but now reads at grade level (easily).  I would have hated the board of education giving me grief over it.  This is pretty typical in HSing across the board - kids who are ahead in math, for example, but behind in writing.  It is one of the great things about home education - working on the child's timetable.

 

2.  There are studies that show that kids who live in rigorously overseen states do no better on average than kids in more laissez-faire states.

 

3.  On average, kids in school do not do as well on standardized test as HSed kids.  Why would I want someone who works for a system that does a worse job of educating people judging what I am doing? headscratch.gif  

 

4.  Yes, I know kids fall through the cracks in HSing.  They do in public school as well.  I am not sure if the masses should have to report on their HSing journey for the very few families for whom reporting would be a good idea.  

 

As per gaming - I changed my earlier comment slightly.  I was not making fun of kids who could not read because of video games (and particularly WoW - although you do have to be able to read to play WoW) ) but I can see how it could be misconstrued as such. I was making fun of the idea that sitting around playing video games (even intensely) produces kids who are incapable of reading or basic math.  WoW does not kill brain cells.   Online and IRL, I have known a few teenage boys who games heavily - most of them move on eventually.  My own son gamed heavily from 12-14.  He is in the honours program at school now and having no real issues with keeping up or deficits in knowledge.    I am not saying that sometimes kids do not game excessively, but I find the stereotype of the unschooling teenager who video games all day and is consequently extremely far behind (far enough to be "tragic") little more than a stereotype.  I can actually only think of one poster whose child was so far behind that I think drastic measure should have been taken to turn things around (and even then, this is just the internet, so who really knows?)

 

 

I wouldn't mind debating you on this topic on a different thread if you ever want to explore it elsewhere.

 

Back to your originally scheduled program,

 

 

Kathy

 

 

 

 

 

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#252 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:23 AM
 
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There are people who do feel that military servitude is important.  While you're concerned over who is and is not paying enough into the system, real US citizens are fighting wars for you to complain about your apples and oranges. 

Say what? Do you seriously believe that we are fighting in Afghanistan because our freedom of speech here in the US is threatened?
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#253 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:25 AM
 
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[quote]


There are people who do feel that military servitude is important.  While you're concerned over who is and is not paying enough into the system, real US citizens are fighting wars for you to complain about your apples and oranges.  Fair share?  Seriously?  That's all you have?  If you're so concerned about fair share you would start considering ALL... just not yourself and your fair share.  Do you believe in the pay to play system?  People that tout the fair share message are generally those who would begrudge an elderly lady a stipend because it takes from their pot and the elderly lady no longer Pays to Play.

 

Lots of people can not legally vote.  Do you need me to tell you who they are?  They're citizens. 

Paying for health care is one thing, but begrudging someone health care because they don't or can't Pay to Play is another thing.

 

Honestly who are you to decide who is worthy?  Are you even worthy?  Are you actually paying all your taxes and not taking from the Gov't one little penny? 

And what do you consider a contribution to society?  Rapists are allowed out to clean the roads.  They make your license plates.  They're contributing.  They're worthy.

 

Kind of think you just don't like anyone who doesn't tow the line.  And that's fine.  People who don't tow the line probably don't like you either.

 

As a side note.  I'm a DV.  And I work full time.  I pay my taxes and I fought for everyones right for freedom... Not just the people you feel are worthy. [/quote]

 

 

I personally think the elderly already made their contribution to society, and it's our job to then care for them.  I believe in caring for those who can not contribute because they are sick or otherwise can't for no fault of their own.

 

I don't believe in pay to play--I'm huge on social services.  But I'm also huge on personal responsibility.  And making sure your children aren't cut off from society.  I believe in rights for all, but that all have responsibility in society with exception to the minority who can not because of some factor that they did not cause (severe mental illness, disability or developmental delay, age, etc.)  I do not believe in able bodied/minded individuals who CAN contribute skipping out on their responsibilities--those people fighting so hard and dying for our freedom?  I'm sure they would be pretty upset at people who skirt the system to avoid paying for their salaries while they are giving their lives so others have the freedom to skirt the system. ;-)

 

I have no problem with people who think for themselves and tow the line.  I have a big problem with setting kids up for failure because of our OWN over-the-top fears.  I also think that if you believe America is so evil, there are a lot of un-developed places in this world to set up a yurt and live in isolation.  People who don't believe in declaring their existence are still enjoying the freedoms that our soldiers so bravely fought for.  Enjoying the benefits and then screaming that it isn't fair and you hate the country and are afraid of "the man" and want to be a citizen and hide from society kind of slaps the faces of those who fought for those freedoms.  

 

As for who makes contributions to society?  Those contributions come in many forms...but hiding from society and wanting to live in complete isolation and not proving existence while enjoying the freedoms we have?  That's taking a whole lot more than you're willing to give.  You're willing to take, but you don't want anyone to know you're taking it...


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#254 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:27 AM
 
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For what it's worth I'm pulling out all different views. 

 

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Originally Posted by zinemama View Post


Say what? Do you seriously believe that we are fighting in Afghanistan because our freedom of speech here in the US is threatened?


 

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#255 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#256 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#257 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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#258 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

There are people who do feel that military servitude is important.  While you're concerned over who is and is not paying enough into the system, real US citizens are fighting wars for you to complain about your apples and oranges. 
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Originally Posted by zinemama View Post

Say what? Do you seriously believe that we are fighting in Afghanistan because our freedom of speech here in the US is threatened?
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Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

For what it's worth I'm pulling out all different views.

I don't understand what you mean.
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#259 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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And I get what you're saying.  The freedom to live freely?  Or the freedom to live as freely as you're allowed? 

 

And fwiw, veterans are currently on the radar.  Highly trained individuals willing to uphold the constitution as it was.  Veterans make up a decent chunk of the Terrorist watch list.   While I'm at it, the people that are watched are people trying to live outside the box.  The reason for that is due to the strenghening of the Militias.  And of course Militias are chalked full with Veterans. 

 

Again I do not agree with not getting a SSI or BC.  I disagree with people saying it's the American thing to do. 
 

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Originally Posted by AllyRae View Post

[quote]


There are people who do feel that military servitude is important.  While you're concerned over who is and is not paying enough into the system, real US citizens are fighting wars for you to complain about your apples and oranges.  Fair share?  Seriously?  That's all you have?  If you're so concerned about fair share you would start considering ALL... just not yourself and your fair share.  Do you believe in the pay to play system?  People that tout the fair share message are generally those who would begrudge an elderly lady a stipend because it takes from their pot and the elderly lady no longer Pays to Play.

 

Lots of people can not legally vote.  Do you need me to tell you who they are?  They're citizens. 

Paying for health care is one thing, but begrudging someone health care because they don't or can't Pay to Play is another thing.

 

Honestly who are you to decide who is worthy?  Are you even worthy?  Are you actually paying all your taxes and not taking from the Gov't one little penny? 

And what do you consider a contribution to society?  Rapists are allowed out to clean the roads.  They make your license plates.  They're contributing.  They're worthy.

 

Kind of think you just don't like anyone who doesn't tow the line.  And that's fine.  People who don't tow the line probably don't like you either.

 

As a side note.  I'm a DV.  And I work full time.  I pay my taxes and I fought for everyones right for freedom... Not just the people you feel are worthy. [/quote]

 

I personally think the elderly already made their contribution to society, and it's our job to then care for them.  I believe in caring for those who can not contribute because they are sick or otherwise can't for no fault of their own.

 

I don't believe in pay to play--I'm huge on social services.  But I'm also huge on personal responsibility.  And making sure your children aren't cut off from society.  I believe in rights for all, but that all have responsibility in society with exception to the minority who can not because of some factor that they did not cause (severe mental illness, disability or developmental delay, age, etc.)  I do not believe in able bodied/minded individuals who CAN contribute skipping out on their responsibilities--those people fighting so hard and dying for our freedom?  I'm sure they would be pretty upset at people who skirt the system to avoid paying for their salaries while they are giving their lives so others have the freedom to skirt the system. ;-)

 

I have no problem with people who think for themselves and tow the line.  I have a big problem with setting kids up for failure because of our OWN over-the-top fears.  I also think that if you believe America is so evil, there are a lot of un-developed places in this world to set up a yurt and live in isolation.  People mooching off the system are still enjoying the freedoms that our soldiers so bravely fought for.  Enjoying the benefits and then screaming that it isn't fair and you hate the country and are afraid of "the man" and want to be a citizen and hide from society kind of slaps the faces of those who fought for those freedoms.  

 

As for who makes contributions to society?  Those contributions come in many forms...but hiding from society and wanting to live in complete isolation and not proving existence while enjoying the freedoms we have?  That's taking a whole lot more than you're willing to give.  You're willing to take, but you don't want anyone to know you're taking it...



 

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#260 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

My accidental death would actually effect you less if my children don't have BC and therefore can't be a ward of an appointed caregiver. You don't have to pay for any of their needs plus we have all of our life insurance going to their god parents that would take care of them.

 

Perhaps I don't want my kids to serve society....that's kind of the point. They serve God and themselves. Then they can make a choice at 16/18 whether they want to serve society.



Even Jesus wanted people to give to Caesar what is Caesar's. ;-)  I guess it's two different viewpoints completely--I don't happen to think that God wanted us to serve just ourselves.  In fact, I am pretty sure the Bible agrees with me.  But that's a religious discussion and probably not allowed.  But even as a member of society, I think it's our duty to care for the sick, the elderly, orphans, etc.  Part of a way to do that is through our tax dollars.  But I am also very dedicated to social services and serving the needs of those less fortunate.  I just don't have the mindset to "serve myself" (probably why I get so tired all the time...too much dealing with other people's problems. LMAO!!!!)  

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#261 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post


And I get what you're saying.  The freedom to live freely?  Or the freedom to live as freely as you're allowed? 

 

And fwiw, veterans are currently on the radar.  Highly trained individuals willing to uphold the constitution as it was.  Veterans make up a decent chunk of the Terrorist watch list.   While I'm at it, the people that are watched are people trying to live outside the box.  The reason for that is due to the strenghening of the Militias.  And of course Militias are chalked full with Veterans. 

 

Again I do not agree with not getting a SSI or BC.  I disagree with people saying it's the American thing to do. 
 



 


FWIW, it makes me very sad to know how veterans are treated in our country.  It's one of the great injustices--those who fight so that we can live are then treated like they have few rights.  The veterans, the elderly, etc. should be honored in society for the contributions they have made. 

 

Just an aside....  

 

I don't follow the line (heck, I don't even declare a political party because I hate following anyone's party line).  But I do believe that our freedom wasn't free and we all have a responsibility--it's the pay off for living in a country with such great freedoms.  I am very much against most mainstream culture.  Some people who have towed the lines have made our country's greatest contributions (MLK-JR for example).  I don't mind when people tow the line, generally.

 


~Brandon Michael (11/23/03), Jocelyn Lily Nữ (2/4/07, adopted 5/28/07 from Vietnam), Amelia Rylie (1/14/09), & Ryland Josef William (9/7/05-9/7/05 @ 41 wks). 
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#262 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:55 AM
 
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Honestly  I still don't get it.

 

I still don't really understand exactly why these people are not getting SSI and BC.  The reasons that I have read honestly sound like fear mongering propaganda. 

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#263 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 11:56 AM
 
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I love when people fight for a real cause.  And not for selfish agendas.  And I'm part of Veterans for peace. 
 

And I think it's selfish to reside within our shores and refuse to give back in anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllyRae View Post


FWIW, it makes me very sad to know how veterans are treated in our country.  It's one of the great injustices--those who fight so that we can live are then treated like they have few rights.  The veterans, the elderly, etc. should be honored in society for the contributions they have made. 

 

Just an aside....  

 

I don't follow the line (heck, I don't even declare a political party because I hate following anyone's party line).  But I do believe that our freedom wasn't free and we all have a responsibility--it's the pay off for living in a country with such great freedoms.  I am very much against most mainstream culture.  Some people who have towed the lines have made our country's greatest contributions (MLK-JR for example).  I don't mind when people tow the line, generally.

 



 

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#264 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#265 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 01:09 PM
 
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me thinks you have not read the bible.  Matthew 22:21   and I think she's refering to you not wanting to pay taxes or to be part of this society.  Jesus says you have to. 
 

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I'm talking about minor children serving society. That's just a creepy statement. I'll give my taxes to Caesar and my children to God.



 

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#266 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 07:18 PM
 
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I am not sure if I will be UC-ing but I will atleast be doing my own prenatals. Is there a way to not get a SSN/BC automatically if you give birth in a hospital? I can't remember how the paper work all was for my lasts 2 hospital births....

 



What we did was told the hospital we hadn't named our child yet. Left the hospital, they called and we told them we didn't want a BC sent. They have to send in paperwork indicating a birth, but no BC was created that either parent signed. That is what gives BC power, the parents signature.

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#267 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 07:22 PM
 
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me thinks you have not read the bible.  Matthew 22:21   and I think she's refering to you not wanting to pay taxes or to be part of this society.  Jesus says you have to. 
 



 

 

Mark 10:41-42
But Yahshua called them to him and saith unto them, "Yee know that
they which are accompted (accounted) to rule over the Gentiles,
exercise Lordship over them: and their great ones exercise authority
upon them.
But so it shall not be among you: but whosoever of you will be great
amoung you, shall be your minister.

 

 

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#268 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 07:40 PM
 
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You people act like I taking away something from my child, no actually you are taking from your child. I have given my child a choice, you have made the choice for them. I am doing nothing illegal and the point isn't to hide what I am doing. I've explained my reasoning. CPS was threatened at the hospital for us wanting to leave before hospital policy...hence why I have a problem. I have no interest in reporting in to anyone on how i educate my child. I also will not be having a doctor prescribe damaging medication. US has no say over the care of Amish children, menenite children, and the different sects claiming ties to mormonism. Do they not use the book of mormon? I was mormon for a time, so it wasn't meant as a slander grouping those off-shoot religions with yours. Sort of like calling all Methodists, seven-day adventists, baptists, etc... protestant. Now no stately religion works for me.

 

I will say this again and again and again. SSN is a completely voluntary system, opt in when you wish but you can't opt out. Birth Certificates are just primary sources to prove you were born in this country. There are other forms, so BC's are not required. I am not trying to hide my child and yes passports are an issue with their rfid chips, but I would like to travel. If they go biometric, well i wont be renewing.

 

If you truly want to give Caesar what is Caesars, then you pay your taxes. Whose face is on the currency? Certainly not Yahweh's. I suggest those that reference the bible, to read it completely.

 

Matthew 23:9

King James Version (KJV)

 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

Parens Patriae

 

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#269 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 08:03 PM
 
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And we take it how we want. 
 

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Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post

 

Mark 10:41-42
But Yahshua called them to him and saith unto them, "Yee know that
they which are accompted (accounted) to rule over the Gentiles,
exercise Lordship over them: and their great ones exercise authority
upon them.
But so it shall not be among you: but whosoever of you will be great
amoung you, shall be your minister.

 

 



 

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#270 of 406 Old 02-06-2012, 08:04 PM
 
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Akkarin….are you planning on getting birth certificates for your children?  (I do understand not getting SSN at this time)

 

Do you know how easy or difficult it is to get a BC later on?  Are there provisions you can make to ensure getting a BC is easy later on?  I know Canada has 2 certificates - a certificate of Live Birth and a Birth Certificate.  I do not remember filling out forms for my older kids (who were born in hospital) but my youngest was born at home and I did hdo paperwork for a Certificate of live Birth.  It might be that you have or a registrar has a certificate of live Birth for your kids.  I wonder if having a copy might make getting a BC easier when/if you want one?  Just musing here….

 

I have been thinking of Amish and the like throughout this thread - but the difference, I think, is that the Amish come from a fairly tight knit community where the numbers who actually leave is reasonably small.  They have networks for people to work and the like without needing "papers."  I am not sure the same can be said for most families not in sects.

 

(A quick google search did not answer whether or not the Amish have BC and SSN.  I would not automatically assume they don't)

 

 

 

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