Upset about planned Csecs and Csecs due to induction - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Long story short..

 

My DH's co worker and a friends wife had Csecs this past week, one had a Planned Cesarean ("baby a") and the other had a Cesarean ("baby b") after being induced before her due date. Both doctors said "the baby is big" and both little girls were born 7lbs 10oz and 7lbs 6oz.

 

I'm not the type to be pushy or "force my beliefs", but I did inform both of them of the highlights in my pregnancy and that it is possible to have a natural birth. Even when "baby b" was in labor and updating on Facebook I told her "my mom was in an induced labor for 3 days and had me naturally, at 9lbs 8oz" and offered words of encouragement. 

 

At first I felt upset, that they were robbed of the experience. Baby A's mom supposedly wanted a water birth, but she planned the Csec, so I believe that was her choice. Baby B's mom wanted to go "as natural as possible", but I guess she didn't know inductions increase the chance of Csec by 50%. 

 

I am very relieved, as a CLE, the Baby A is being breastfed and is doing great and I sense regret (about her csec) when I see the mother.

 

Overall, these situations are very upsetting to me, my personal friends are like minded and since I don't see or communicate with these women on a regular basis, so I don't see them all the time.  All I can do is be an advocate for Natural Childbirth and Breastfeeding. 

 

Have any of you had a similar experience?


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#2 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 06:35 AM
 
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Yes, you're wrong. You want to associate yourself with a certain kind of people and feel mad when they did not have the birth that you deem correct? You marginalize their experience by putting quotes around "giving birth?" You think that "being an example" puts an onus on people you don't consider friends to mimic your choices?

 

It's been discussed around here plenty of times the angst people feel when they see friends being pushed into births that they would not personally want. But most people at least have those feelings out of concern for their friends, and many can sympathize with the feelings even if they are partially misguided.

 

But this -- what??

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aHikaru View Post


Overall, these situations are very upsetting to me, I like to associate myself with like minded people, so that's something I definitely want to work on. I don't consider these people my friends, since I don't see or communicate with them on a regular basis, so I don't have to worry about seeing them all the time.

 

Yes, go ahead and "work on" getting better friends that won't betray you and have a birth you don't approve of. Make sure your new friends understand that their births are about you. I'm very glad you don't consider them to be your friends because hopefully it's mutual and they won't have to wonder why a "friend" suddenly turned on them.


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#3 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 07:08 AM
 
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I get mad all the time when dr.s pressure moms into inductions or do not tell them the potential risks- a good friend of mine just went into get induced yesterday and guess what- they had to do a c- section. I told her the stats and the risks and yup- sure enough she had to have a c section.

Reason for induction- baby was getting too big.... well- baby was born- under 7 lbs.

Not to big.

It's a crock of shit and this mama was robbed of a vaginal birth by a dr who knew - and they do know- that induction increases c- section- but they tell women- mothers - that it is worth the risk cause gasp- the baby is getting to big- and all to often - these babies are born- under 7 lbs.

 

Its ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by laohaire View Post

Yes, go ahead and "work on" getting better friends that won't betray you and have a birth you don't approve of. Make sure your new friends understand that their births are about you. I'm very glad you don't consider them to be your friends because hopefully it's mutual and they won't have to wonder why a "friend" suddenly turned on them.


thank you for for perspective. They both reached out for support in having a water birth and "being as natural as possible" and wanted my support and as soon as they scheduled their csecs and inductions they didn't want support. One woman was a friends wife and the other was my DH's coworker, I was actually the first person she told that she was pregnant because she didn't know how to use a pregnancy test and asked for my advice over the phone.

When they need someone to talk to I'll be there because I know how it feels to have a dr tell me I have to get induced or have a c-sec because my baby was "going to be too small".

 

I've learned a lot through my birth experience and I know we all do after we become mothers, our world changes for the better. Becoming a mother has led me to find the Holistic Moms Network, Attachment Parenting International, Waldorf Education and mothering.com, which are all great resources where I've found great friends. 

 

*I understand I do not have a way with words, but I was looking for support, that's what motheringDC is for. I usually see responses like this at other forums.


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#5 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Mom31 View Post

I get mad all the time when dr.s pressure moms into inductions or do not tell them the potential risks- a good friend of mine just went into get induced yesterday and guess what- they had to do a c- section. I told her the stats and the risks and yup- sure enough she had to have a c section.

Reason for induction- baby was getting too big.... well- baby was born- under 7 lbs.

Not to big.

It's a crock of shit and this mama was robbed of a vaginal birth by a dr who knew - and they do know- that induction increases c- section- but they tell women- mothers - that it is worth the risk cause gasp- the baby is getting to big- and all to often - these babies are born- under 7 lbs.

 

Its ridiculous.


I completely agree! 

 

I'm glad you understand that these women clearly wanted natural births, but after 1 visit to their dr.'s office, their entire birth plan of what they wanted was ignored.

 

I admit I was VERY close to getting a induction, which would of led to csec, but my gut and my DD told me otherwise, she came 2 days early, which has been the biggest blessing in disguise. First pregnancies are hard because it's all new and we don't know anything unless we educate ourselves, which can become very scary and stressful for a first time mother to be.

 

I'm glad I listened to my mother and if there's any advice I can give to Mommy's to be (after this experience), is to listen to all the honest experiences of the mothers in your life and decide for yourself.

 


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#6 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 07:57 AM
 
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Maybe it won't be the most popular opinion around here, but I believe women should have a full range of birth choices - elective c/s, hospital, birth center, homebirth, "illegal mws," uc, you name it. If we want others to respect our own birth choices/freedoms, we need to respect theirs.

 

That being said, sometimes I go nuts in my head, hearing about babies being too big, cord around neck, as justifications for c/s. Or other things about formula/breast. I think it is best to shut your mouth, walk away, step away from facebook before commenting, rant at DH or your dog if you have to. If someone comes to you for advice or wanting to know your experience or reasonings, that's a different story. Some women will always feel more comfortable complying to whatever medical advice ob/gyn gives, and if that's what makes them feel most comfortable, that is what they should do. While judgements may fly through our heads, we need to keep them there. 

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#7 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Maybe it won't be the most popular opinion around here, but I believe women should have a full range of birth choices - elective c/s, hospital, birth center, homebirth, "illegal mws," uc, you name it. If we want others to respect our own birth choices/freedoms, we need to respect theirs.

 

That being said, sometimes I go nuts in my head, hearing about babies being too big, cord around neck, as justifications for c/s. Or other things about formula/breast. I think it is best to shut your mouth, walk away, step away from facebook before commenting, rant at DH or your dog if you have to. If someone comes to you for advice or wanting to know your experience or reasonings, that's a different story. Some women will always feel more comfortable complying to whatever medical advice ob/gyn gives, and if that's what makes them feel most comfortable, that is what they should do. While judgements may fly through our heads, we need to keep them there. 


Good advice smile.gif

I hold no judgement because they had the best intentions, but I know with first time births we are always unsure of the unknown.

Right now one of the moms is asking me about her next birth and how VBAC works, which is great smile.gif

 

*I also want to state that there is nothing wrong with getting or needing a Csec, whether it be Unplanned due to a long labor or for medical reasons such as placenta problems, chance of infection, multiples, diabetes or birth defects, etc. 

 


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#8 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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This was posted the other day...

 

‎"In every field, it’s very easy in this society to convince women that they’renot fit enough, not young enough, not pretty enough. Their bodies are never up to the task, their bodies are not fit for what they’re really made to do. It’s a psychological headtrip that women have bought into hook, line and sinker. There’s already so much fear around this issue anyway that if anybody feeds you any more fear, it’s impossible to find your footing and your confidence." - Abby Epstein


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#9 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 09:30 AM
 
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Just an FYI but saying "gave birth" with the quotes can be quite offensive to some moms, especially since it seems you are implying that having a c/s means you didn't really give birth. The only person who has the right to make that decision is the birthing mom.

My personal opinion is that I have no right to judge another mom based on her birth choices and I hope I get the same respect in return.
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#10 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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Just an FYI but saying "gave birth" with the quotes can be quite offensive to some moms, especially since it seems you are implying that having a c/s means you didn't really give birth. The only person who has the right to make that decision is the birthing mom.

My personal opinion is that I have no right to judge another mom based on her birth choices and I hope I get the same respect in return.
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#11 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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Just an FYI but saying "gave birth" with the quotes can be quite offensive to some moms, especially since it seems you are implying that having a c/s means you didn't really give birth. The only person who has the right to make that decision is the birthing mom.

My personal opinion is that I have no right to judge another mom based on her birth choices and I hope I get the same respect in return.
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#12 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 09:54 AM
 
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If we truly want to empower each other, I think the best thing we can do is to listen to each other, with no pre-conceived notions about what we're going to hear, and do the courtesy of believing the the mother who is telling her story knows what she is talking about. It's a simple thing, but I'm surprised at how few people can really do it. The world would be a better place if health care providers and communities of support (like MDC) would work on this skill.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post

Just an FYI but saying "gave birth" with the quotes can be quite offensive to some moms, especially since it seems you are implying that having a c/s means you didn't really give birth. 

Didn't mean to imply that having a csec doesn't make them a mother, *edited.
 

 


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#14 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If we truly want to empower each other, I think the best thing we can do is to listen to each other, with no pre-conceived notions about what we're going to hear, and do the courtesy of believing the the mother who is telling her story knows what she is talking about. It's a simple thing, but I'm surprised at how few people can really do it. The world would be a better place if health care providers and communities of support (like MDC) would work on this skill.

This definitely applies when you are generally speaking to a woman expressing her interest in her options. 

In this situation, these women asked for advice based on my education and experience working with mothers and newborns. 

Overall, I agree with Mom31, it is very upsetting to see planned csecs and inductions happening all around us.

 


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#15 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 10:21 AM
 
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OP, you keep changing the title of this thread, and you are losing me... 

 

I don't think we can judge that it is wrong to plan elective c/s. I uc'ed my first, and will probably uc/hb with mw for if and when there is #2. I do not want anyone forcing me into a hospital if my birth/health doesn't warrant it. On the other hand, no one should be forcing women to have vaginal or natural births if they do not want. That is my 2 cents. We start making points about x,y,z being better for baby and we run down slippery slope - both ways. We should all be allowed to choose what we deem the best route for us.

 

Although it is still the minority trend, nowadays there are a lot of resources for women interested in natural birth, avoiding interventions, avoiding c/sections, etc. Sometimes women may just feel better following their dr's advice and going for the induction. Certainly inductions are warranted sometimes. It takes a lot of stress, time, sometimes money, etc. to try to fight your ob or switch hcp in late pregnancy, and some people may not feel comfortable or inclined to do so. I know a lot of women who say they want to try for natural birth, but don't really do any reading, don't try to find ways to increase their chances, etc. I think some are just saying that initially because they are talking to me and saying what they think I want to hear, for whatever reason, probably because they are afraid I will judge them. I lied most of my pregnancy about having a mw because I didn't want to be judged about uc.

 

ETA: OP, I guess I understand more what you are getting at?? You are upset about birth culture/ the main "system"/ the macro picture I think? I feel that way too because I am in country with very high c/sec rate, of all the women I know how have given birth recently, most chose elective c/s, some tried vaginal birth and most ended up with c/s, only a handful had vaginal births because most showed up to hospital pushing or spent a lot of time and money finding the right ob. I get upset at the "system" but I try not to judge individuals. I liked the quote you put upthread too.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by slmommy View Post

 

ETA: OP, I guess I understand more what you are getting at?? You are upset about birth culture/ the main "system"/ the macro picture I think? I feel that way too because I am in country with very high c/sec rate, of all the women I know how have given birth recently, most chose elective c/s, some tried vaginal birth and most ended up with c/s, only a handful had vaginal births because most showed up to hospital pushing or spent a lot of time and money finding the right ob. I get upset at the "system" but I try not to judge individuals. I liked the quote you put upthread too.

I guess I was so upset I didn't think about what I was writing, but after reading everyones opinions it was clear to me it was the system that was bothering me (thus the constant title changes, my apologies). These mothers wanted Natural Births and it just upsets me, but the first mom is reaching out about VBACs and we will be hanging out after her post op checkup next week.
 

 


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#17 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 02:36 PM
 
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I have felt upset before about seeing how birth goes down with people I know. But it's critical to remember that it's the mother's own experience that matters here, not anyone else's perceptions of how her birth went.

 

  • We don't know what the mothers really wanted. Even if they SAID a hundred times they wanted a natural birth, they might have meant something else than what we assumed (such as wanting to "try" a natural birth but not being as invested as we assumed, or defining a natural birth by different standards than us). They might have felt social pressure to say such things. They might have been committed but things changed (got scared in labor, for example).
  • We often cannot say for sure that a particular cesarean (or other intervention) was unwarranted. We can make generalized statements but dissecting a particular birth can be problematic.
  • For a movement that is trying to support women and their choices, birth activists need to remember not to blame the victim. Yes, the waters can get murky ("she chose an OB notorious for performing cesareans") and women do have the power to partially affect their outcomes, but our focus needs to be on the overall birth climate, not blaming individual women.
  • Telling a woman how to feel about her birth experience is potentially traumatizing. It's taken me years to process the birth of my daughter, and I don't even have too much to complain about. Birth is such a big deal, and so emotional, that it often has to be examined in layers. And if a woman doesn't want to unwrap those layers for fear of what she might find, we don't want to waste our energy judging or blaming her. I've noticed that many women cannot face their disappointments or anger or sadness about aspects of their birth until time has passed, and I suspect that they often can't do it at all unless they have been given the space to do so on their own, in a supportive environment. Having someone tell them their birth was awful (or whatever) will probably make a woman shut down. So many of us feel shame and self-blame about these things as it is. It's too much to handle. Therefore, it is my policy to reflect a woman's experience back on her (even if I privately think her birth was traumatic): if she's happy, then I'm happy for her. If she is angry, I will back her up. But no way am I going to even gently suggest that her birth went awry if she needs to tell herself that it was perfect. And really, who am I to judge anyway?

 

Anyway, as I mentioned before, people often come here and vent about feelings regarding other births, and most of us understand that. But I do feel strongly that rejecting a woman because of her birth experience is putting the anger in exactly the wrong place. Now, maybe the part of your post that I quoted might have meant something different than I read it as, but it sounded to me like you were saying that you wouldn't consider these women friends because they got cesareans - and, I guess, didn't fight hard enough against them. It sounded like you were saying you were looking for "like-minded" people and they clearly weren't it. Also your latest post sort of implies that, by saying that one mom is looking into a VBAC for next time, and (as a result?) you will be hanging out with her after all. If that is even somewhat true, that is ... not cool. I'm happy to see you edited out the quotes around the "giving birth" because that's something only the mother herself can choose to do. And if you are frustrated that they didn't fight hard enough, ask yourself what the bigger problem is: women who don't fight hard enough, or a birth climate which requires you to fight that hard?

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#18 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 02:46 PM
 
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I understand where you are coming from. I get upset with things like that too. But one thing I have found....is that most of the women that are in that situation don't feel "robbed of experience". Keep in mind, even though a lot of people talk about how they want a natural birth or this or that....most don't end up going through with it. They don't have the same mindset as us. So the best thing you can do is keep your mouth shut and move on. Now if they bring it up about how they feel like they missed out, then sure, speak your peace...but outside of that, there is nothing you can do and dwelling on it won't help anything. =S

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#19 of 20 Old 03-20-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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I really don't think you are in the wrong.  Obviously when you have feelings like this you need to think about boundaries and what is okay to say.  Sometimes even what is okay to think.  But quite frankly it's not the end of the world to judge things in our heads.  We figure out tolerance, patience, understanding for others as go.  It's no big deal.  Thinking those thoughts is normal.  As long as we learn to imagine walking another's very different path and acknowledge that we never have their whole story or the whole picture, we are just processing how to relate to what we are absorbing from other folks in this big ol' world.  It's hard to process even knowing what we know about others' experiences sometimes. 

 

It upsets me that women need to have a "buyer beware" attitude.  It upsets me that many are in denial that they need to have a "buyer beware" approach.  It also upsets me when they shrug off the subject, although I completely accept their right to do so.  And it upsets me when they swallow reasons such as the big baby guesstimate for having unneeded interventions. 

 

What they lose, I can't exactly name it for any other woman.  Maybe they started losing it years and years ago when they learned to be disconnected from their bodies, learned to fear birth and physical processes etc.  There is plenty lost though.  I don't examine that usually.  But I watched my sister's birth go off that same sidetrack and she just shrugged it off.  She had spent her whole pregnancy learning about natural birth but in the blink of an eye it was gone and she was completely passive about it.  Completely.  Early C-section and a 6 pound baby and she gave up on breastfeeding within three days even though she said she was completely committed to it before.  Something was lost.  It's NOT the "experience" exactly that I would describe as what's lost, but still something is definitely lost.  I know only bits and fragments of anyone else's reality and not every section is a tragedy, but some of them are pretty darn sad in this way.

 

As far as having the birth we want, sure.  But I personally think that insurance should not cover elective sections or quite a few other "gratuitous" interventions considering they are elective and costly.  (No I do not mean pain relief  which any woman should have access to BTW)  Purely elective C-sections are about as legitimate for insurance coverage as plastic surgery.  All the BS about big babies and other physician-caused expensive heroics is ultimately winning certain expensive professionals job security for all the wrong reasons and making the insurance ticket look a-okay.  It's a mystery to me why we tolerate that in terms of cost but then again I know it is complex...  I do wish there were a way to trim some health care waste from the birthing process.  We're all paying each other's bills one way or the other and it's a shame all we pay for in births that shouldn't have even happened.  (Sorry about the change of subject LOL)

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#20 of 20 Old 03-21-2012, 08:46 AM
 
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My friend and doula tried to talk me into homebirth, but I chose a hospital birth for my first.  I should have heeded her advice as the hospital was a colossal mistake.  But you know what?  My wonderful friend never once judged me to my face.  Always, *always* she showed nothing but love and support (and thank you thank you thank you for getting those heat pads for my hips!)  After an incredibly long labor and C-section (surprise!--not) she wanted to stay and help me establish nursing, but we wanted her to get home back to her daughter.  Now I wish she stayed.  

 

Childbirth really made me into a person I hardly recognized.  I feel like I'm such a confident person, or at least someone who is not paralyzed by any lack of confidence (is that a positive trait?  Hmmmmm........ not so sure.)  Anyhow, that person disappeared for a long time once labor began.  

 

In the end she was such a devoted friend to me.  In some ways I wished she had tried harder to convince me to have a home birth. Still, I am glad she chose to support me regardless.  She remains an excellent friend to this day.

 

It can be hard watching a friend make choices like the ones you've described.  But it's not like choosing a c-section or induction is anything like a mom choosing to take crack during pregnancy (I mention that to be snarky, not ornery, and I know that is a silly comparison but I hope you get my meaning anyway.)  

 

It is frustrating that we seem to be hoodwinked into making decisions that are not necessarily in our best interests.  I know, I was that person.  I just hope you are as good a friend to these women as mine was to me.

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