Wondering About Multiples - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

View Poll Results: After reading my post, do you think I could be pregnant with multiples?
No, unless you prove it with an ultrasound 12 66.67%
Possibly Twins 3 16.67%
Possibly Triplets 2 11.11%
Possibly Quads (just to set the husbands mind at ease - I'm not expecting you to vote in this column, but just so you coud give your honest opinion its's here!) 1 5.56%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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#61 of 103 Old 07-14-2012, 11:20 PM
 
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Can we go back to the original discussion? Jess, I still really do not understand why you won't just go for an ultrasound? 

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#62 of 103 Old 07-14-2012, 11:51 PM
 
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I agree with Adaline'sMama. I don't like any woman be forced to birth somewhere or not being in control of her body, but having multiples via UC is poor judgment. It's just all around a super risky situation considering all the things that could easily go wrong.
 

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#63 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 03:13 AM
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Jess, TTTS happens during pregnancy, not birth. By the time one baby is born, nothing you can do will impact it. Clamping or not clamping the first baby's cord will not prevent it, and will not prevent it from having severe or acute effects.

With any multiple pregnancy, you run the risk of preterm delivery - it can be treated, but it can't usually be managed safely at home. Given that you've found two heartbeats, it would be a good idea to have a doctor/hospital lined up in case you go into labor dangerously early. You can revert to the home birth plan once you're far enough along. 32 week twins have a great prognosis in the hospital, but are probably not going to make it if born at home, even if you live close to the hospital.
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#64 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by BlessedJess View Post


TTTS would be rare in my case. Imagine the chances of triplets, then imagine the chances of TTTS in a triplet pregnancy on top of that. Those are two extra layers of statistics I would have to cross. That's a risk of like 0.0005% or something silly like that. Compared to the stress and the bullshit and the truly unknown risks. I don't need to go to a medical person to sell me fear on such slim chances.

I'm the only person awake in my house, and I love stats, so I'm going to attempt to show you some math here, somewhat hampered by typing on my iPod and by not having actual numbers for probability of either mono/di twins, triplets, or TTTS.

The method that most of us are taught in high school for calculating the probability of two events is to multiply the probability of one event by the probability of the other event. This method works for independent variables. You can use it to determine things like the chances that a coin toss will come up heads three times in a row (1/8), or the chances that you will win the lottery AND be struck by lightning on the same day (I don't know exactly, but vanishingly minuscule). This works with variables that don't affect each other. One flip of the coin does not influence the next. The lottery does not affect the weather.

Your situation - suspected twins or triplets and TTTS - involves dependent variables. The most common kind of pregnancy is singleton pregnancy. Because these pregnancies involve only one baby, they will not lead to TTTS. Twin pregnancies have risk of TTTS if the babies are a mono-di pair. If not, chances of TTTS are back to 0. Triplet pregnancies have three possible pairs of babies (baby a and baby b, baby a and baby c, baby b and baby c) who could be a mono/di pair. The chances of having one mono/di pair in a set of three are higher, assuming total randomness, simply because there are more possibilities. Thus, rather than it being unlikely that two rare things would happen at the same time, rare event 1 (spontaneous conception of triplets) creates a higher risk of rare event 2 (mono/di pair), which in turn creates the potential for rare event 3 (TTTS). Unfortunately, you don't get to multiply the probabilities together for a vanishingly small fraction here, because each variable increases the probability of the next variable. While I don't have exact numbers, it is clear that your chances of having TTTS in a spontaneous triplet pregnancy are much higher than the 0% probability singleton moms face. The presence of multiples puts you at higher, not lower risk.

Remember, accepting some care does not mean accepting all care. You still get to make decisions. Gathering information allows you to consider your options, identify your resources and plan. Obviously, your ideal is a UC. There are birth situations that fall short of this level of autonomy but still give you a lot of control. There are birth situations that leave you no control at all. The more you plan for alternatives, the higher the chances are that you will get to keep that control.
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#65 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 05:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BlessedJess View Post

 What are the statistics for maternal mortality with HOM? 

Yes, perhaps Discovery channel did misinform you. The risk of maternal OR fetal mortality is the same. With HOM you are 3 times more likely to die than with a singleton pregnancy and the babies are 3 times more likely to die than with a singleton pregnancy.

 

Senat, M.V., Ancel, P.Y., Bouvier-Colle, M.H. and Bréart, G. (1998) How does multiple pregnancy affect maternal mortality and morbidity. Clin. Obstet. Gynecol.41,79–83

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9504226

 

I'm not sure how to do multiple quotes but I will make another post to address another issue in a moment.

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#66 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 05:08 AM
 
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I was interested in preventing acute TTTS during birth by cord clamping.

There is nothing you can do to prevent TTTS at birth, acute or chronic, outside a hospital. Depending on the type of TTTS, if it's left untreated it has an average mortality rate of 80%. 

 

Copied from the following link:

 

Acute TTTS can occur in any case of monochorionic twins, who may not have shown any of the clinical symptoms of Chronic TTTS through the pregnancy. The pressures invoked by normal delivery can cause a mass transfusion of blood from one twin to another. Experienced hospitals can combat this by monitoring fetal heart rates during delivery for signs of Acute TTTS. If it is detected, an emergency C-Section will usually be offered.

 

http://www.twin2twin.org/What_is_TTTS.htm

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#67 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 07:32 AM
 
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I hope no one minds me barging in here, but I have been reading and thought I might have a unique perspective for you, Jess. Let me first say that I am a HUGE HUGE HUGE proponent of UP/UC and the whole concept in general and this definitely is not a "You're crazy to UP/UC" post. At all. I just wanted to give my own POV on this. 

 

I also have lots of children, and am currently pregnant with my 7th, 8th and 9th. I have four singletons and a set of twins and am now 32 weeks with triplets. Overall, all have been pretty easy smooth pregnancies and uncomplicated deliveries. All did "what they were supposed to" (as in, my body and my babies etc). My body has beautifully given me and grown 6 (well, 9) gorgeous children and I have been extremely blessed. 

 

Nothing could have prepared me for a triplet pregnancy. Nothing could have prepared my body. For the first time in all my years of child bearing, I feel like my body is struggling. This is the first time ever that things are not neat and tidy. I have always had a strong sense of being in tune with my body and now I can definitely tell that it is having a hard time coping. I wish I could just invite you to an u/s to see how things look in there now. This is not a normal pregnancy, there is nothing average or routine or "how its meant to be" about a HOM pregnancy. There are a million variables and they all intertwine to just make a huge mess. I have always admired the amazing ability of women, and in particular UP/UCers, to rely on their senses and read their bodies and babies to gauge the pregnancy and the birth. Imagine three people screaming three different books in your ear at the same time. Oh, and one is in italian, and one is about a subject you don't know anything about. Thats a triplet pregnancy. 

 

And honestly, I felt pretty fantastic until about 22 weeks. And then I felt kind of fantastic til about 26 weeks. At 32 weeks I can feel that my body is coming to the end. Trust me, no amount of taurine will help this. Like I said, its completely impossible for you to comprehend it. I couldn't have comprehended it. I am not telling you not to UP or to UC. Its your decision and your babies and your body. Would I have done it in any pregnancy before now? Absolutely. Would I do it this time? Not in a million years. 

 

I am doing such a bad job at conveying my thoughts on this and I have a strong feeling I am just going to make you angry and respond with "Well, I'll do a better job than you". Which is fine. I just wanted to give you my thoughts as someone who isn't part of the statistics- who is actually carrying three babies and wanted to give you that perspective. I wish you the absolute best of luck and blessings for your body, your baby and your birth. 


Mama to nine gorgeous babies, with finale #10 due April'14.
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#68 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 08:36 AM
 
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I was thinking about you and your dreams of 3 after your thread was locked and I was wondering if it could possibly be a symbol of twins with one placenta. Lots of people think the placenta has its own spirit, and I could well imagine it being represented as a baby (or a teacup) in a dream. 

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#69 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'd like to take a moment to point out that not everyone here believes that God is smarter than doctors. In fact, not everyone who advocates or participates in UC is a believer in god at all. And as far as you getting upset that people are trying to advocate you stepping away from UP/UC being against the board rules- The board protects people seeking answers/ support about unassisted childbirth. This is not a support only forum. No one here is proselytizing against UC, people are merely telling you that UPing (something that the forum guidelines do not protect) with triplets (or even twins) is a bad idea. As with any thread, if you think someone is breaking the user agreement by posting, you can report their post by clicking the little red flag at the bottom left of the post.
You asked for advice, but you have yet to take any of it seriously. It is looking more and more like you came here to argue and start a thread where you are the focus of attention and are getting a rise out of people. I suggest you start a poll to ask people what they think you what people think you should do. By far,Ill bet most people think you need to see prenatal care so that you know that it is safe for you to birth at home with no assistance. (Which, if you have no problems then I see no reason for you not to do.) You have made many obnoxious statements about how everything that goes wrong is because of a cause ( my son's death is absolute proof that not everything that happens has a cause.) , that women who are healthy have no birth problems (tell that to all the women in the PAL or TTC after loss forum. Id bet they would disagree with you.) The idea that you can rely only on intuition is just not smart. As PP said upthread, I've bought many a lottery ticket on intuition. Intuition is not always right. Its not always perfect. I have believed things and known things within my soul and been wrong about them.
I want to ask you if you are planning to change your mind, or take anyone's advice at all? If a new poll continues to say that you should only UC if you get an ultrasound, will you do that? Or are you just planning to follow your gut and not do anything that would make you feel morally obligated to change your plans? And do you believe there are triplets or twins?

I'd like to take a moment to point out that not everyone here believes that God is smarter than doctors.

 

I'd like to point out that you can call it nature if you prefer. What's the #1 cause of death in America? How about iatragenic causes? (see the dreaded google for more information, add Dr Mercola into the search terms if you like to get your opinions from doctors.) There are many, many casualties in my personal circle of family and friends and I've only scratched the surface. I didn't even start with the literal assault and medical abuse of my friends and relatives. Maybe my circle is just unlucky, maybe I'm unusual, but I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

No one here is proselytizing against UC, people are merely telling you that UPing (something that the forum guidelines do not protect) with triplets (or even twins) is a bad idea.

 

Too bad you don't see pregnancy and birth as a continuum. I do. You can't separate birth outcomes from pregnancy.

 

It is looking more and more like you came here to argue and start a thread where you are the focus of attention and are getting a rise out of people.

 

I see people are happy to give you a thumbs up for saying that. (2 thumbs down)

 

You asked for advice, but you have yet to take any of it seriously.

 

I only had 2 questions. One, if you-all with experience knew if my pregnancy signs pointed towards multiples, and two - if clamping was a good idea between birth intervals, to avoid blood loss in a possible ID twin set within a possible triplet pregnancy. My mistake was to use the words "acute TTTS"... which got everyone telling me to seek medical care. Good grief. If I had signs of polyhydramnios or oligohydramnios after viability was reached, that might be the only thing to do.

 

But you all need to understand something. Because I don't think you will understand me otherwise. My husband is 100% disabled, nerves poisoned by sarin gas while cleaning up after "Team America" in the first Gulf war. Some days his guts are so torn up he can't make it to the toilet a few feet from his chair, and some days his vertigo is so bad he has to crawl. Without me here, watching the 5 kids I already gave birth to and taking care of him with his critically low intracellular magnesium and potassium levels, he'd probably be dead. I couldn't do it alone, but my uber helpful eldest teen daughter needs me to be here, watching his water and nutrient intakes, making sure his food is edible to him, etc. I can't be stuck in a hospital many hours from home for months on months at a time. Not unless it was life and death, because me being here at home is a matter of life and death for him. So unless I know I need to go, I'm not going anywhere, get it? The outcomes of my babies in utero depends on me feeling that my husband, the love of my life, my one and only, is safe and taken care of.

 

my son's death is absolute proof that not everything that happens has a cause

 

I never said you were at fault but how do you know he just died with no cause? How do you know it wasn't something beyond your awareness or control that is happening to people all around you in this artificial commercial environment swimming with toxins and EMF pollution?

 

If a new poll continues to say that you should only UC if you get an ultrasound, will you do that?

 

No. You-all think ultrasound is safe. Well, guess what? We once thought yearly dental xrays were okay for kids, now we find out this year that we are increasing their risk of certain brain tumors by 5X just by doing what the dentist recommends. We also used to xray babies in the womb. How many dumb ideas will people run through before they start getting smart about this kind of thing? You-all be the guinea pigs if you want. I'll wait for the evidence that I'm not doing my children or grandchildren harm with the new fangled technology folks love so much.

 

Or are you just planning to follow your gut and not do anything that would make you feel morally obligated to change your plans?

 

Sorry, that's just a rude question. I'm "morally obligated" to do what my heart tells me and look after this family God gave me. And I couldn't do anything else.

 

And do you believe there are triplets or twins?

 

Depends on whether or not you put stock in intuition. If my intuition is correct, like it was about that damn tincture before I found out what was in it and lost my baby, then I'd say healthy multiples with now 2 dreams about there being triplets, plus having my ribs kicked when that shouldn't happen until the baby(s) are big enough to reach, like 30 weeks. And if I'm just plain wrong, then guess what, who cares about my intuition, there's probably one baby and no need for an U/S.

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#70 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I was thinking about you and your dreams of 3 after your thread was locked and I was wondering if it could possibly be a symbol of twins with one placenta. Lots of people think the placenta has its own spirit, and I could well imagine it being represented as a baby (or a teacup) in a dream. 


Interesting theory! :-) I thought at first it was a symbol of God's protective spirit over the pregnancy, like with the 3 worthies in the fiery furnace. But frankly, I know I double ovulated. The chances are one in millions that it is ID twins.

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#71 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I hope no one minds me barging in here, but I have been reading and thought I might have a unique perspective for you, Jess. Let me first say that I am a HUGE HUGE HUGE proponent of UP/UC and the whole concept in general and this definitely is not a "You're crazy to UP/UC" post. At all. I just wanted to give my own POV on this. 

 

I also have lots of children, and am currently pregnant with my 7th, 8th and 9th. I have four singletons and a set of twins and am now 32 weeks with triplets. Overall, all have been pretty easy smooth pregnancies and uncomplicated deliveries. All did "what they were supposed to" (as in, my body and my babies etc). My body has beautifully given me and grown 6 (well, 9) gorgeous children and I have been extremely blessed. 

 

Nothing could have prepared me for a triplet pregnancy. Nothing could have prepared my body. For the first time in all my years of child bearing, I feel like my body is struggling. This is the first time ever that things are not neat and tidy. I have always had a strong sense of being in tune with my body and now I can definitely tell that it is having a hard time coping. I wish I could just invite you to an u/s to see how things look in there now. This is not a normal pregnancy, there is nothing average or routine or "how its meant to be" about a HOM pregnancy. There are a million variables and they all intertwine to just make a huge mess. I have always admired the amazing ability of women, and in particular UP/UCers, to rely on their senses and read their bodies and babies to gauge the pregnancy and the birth. Imagine three people screaming three different books in your ear at the same time. Oh, and one is in italian, and one is about a subject you don't know anything about. Thats a triplet pregnancy. 

 

And honestly, I felt pretty fantastic until about 22 weeks. And then I felt kind of fantastic til about 26 weeks. At 32 weeks I can feel that my body is coming to the end. Trust me, no amount of taurine will help this. Like I said, its completely impossible for you to comprehend it. I couldn't have comprehended it. I am not telling you not to UP or to UC. Its your decision and your babies and your body. Would I have done it in any pregnancy before now? Absolutely. Would I do it this time? Not in a million years. 

 

I am doing such a bad job at conveying my thoughts on this and I have a strong feeling I am just going to make you angry and respond with "Well, I'll do a better job than you". Which is fine. I just wanted to give you my thoughts as someone who isn't part of the statistics- who is actually carrying three babies and wanted to give you that perspective. I wish you the absolute best of luck and blessings for your body, your baby and your birth. 

 

Hey look, I can't take anything for granted, and I'm in NO WAY offended by your post. I'm delighted and honored that you took the time to write this up. God only knows how you are fighting to keep going. I pray you make it full term, but if you don't CONGRATULATIONS on making it this far!!! :-D

 

If I end up in your shoes and need help, I'm sure it will be a harsh reality check. I'm only 21 weeks today so I'm just taking it one day at a time. I know it will be a miracle to do this UP/UC but I believe in miracles. I've seen them so many times I could write a book (and chances are folks wouldn't believe me, LOL).

 

And I don't just want a miracle, I need one. I can't leave my family, I don't live a short drive from a fancy NICU. Somebody has to keep my disabled husband alive. That's me. Nobody else can do what I can. God will provide and help us, I'm sure. I'm hoping for the provision of a healthy pregnancy and birth at home. His will be done.

 

So we will just have to see how this goes.

 

Thank you for your concerns.

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#72 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:22 AM
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Given your dh's serious illness, it is likely you will need significant help with this pregnancy.  There is a chance that it will, at some point, be be necessary for you to spend time in the hospital or on bed rest.  It could be a matter of life or death.  What resources are available in your community?  What (if anything) can the VA offer you?  Could you find a home health nurse if you needed one? 

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my son's death is absolute proof that not everything that happens has a cause

 

I never said you were at fault but how do you know he just died with no cause? How do you know it wasn't something beyond your awareness or control that is happening to people all around you in this artificial commercial environment swimming with toxins and EMF pollution?

 

Careful, this is not what a grieving mother needs to hear. I personally was offended by your post up thread about how a miscarriage is caused by poor nutrition. SIDS and miscarriage happen at no fault to the mother, no matter what her nutrition was. Please watch what you say and realize that "theories" like this are best left unsaid on a forum such as this.


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If a new poll continues to say that you should only UC if you get an ultrasound, will you do that?

 

No. You-all think ultrasound is safe. Well, guess what? We once thought yearly dental xrays were okay for kids, now we find out this year that we are increasing their risk of certain brain tumors by 5X just by doing what the dentist recommends. We also used to xray babies in the womb. How many dumb ideas will people run through before they start getting smart about this kind of thing? You-all be the guinea pigs if you want. I'll wait for the evidence that I'm not doing my children or grandchildren harm with the new fangled technology folks love so much.

 

 

The fetal doppler you've been using has the exact same technology as an ultrasound. That's why I was so perplexed you were willing to use one but not the other. 

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Jess, TTTS happens during pregnancy, not birth. By the time one baby is born, nothing you can do will impact it. Clamping or not clamping the first baby's cord will not prevent it, and will not prevent it from having severe or acute effects.
With any multiple pregnancy, you run the risk of preterm delivery - it can be treated, but it can't usually be managed safely at home. Given that you've found two heartbeats, it would be a good idea to have a doctor/hospital lined up in case you go into labor dangerously early. You can revert to the home birth plan once you're far enough along. 32 week twins have a great prognosis in the hospital, but are probably not going to make it if born at home, even if you live close to the hospital.

 

I'm not in a good position to even be pregnant with twins/triplets if I needed intervention. Think of this, a half hour away from an inadequate hospital that couldn't even be trusted to section me. 3.5 hours just to get to the capitol limits where I could be treated, and that's not including getting through tangles of traffic to make it to the heart of the city. I'd need to call for an airlift. And I've only been giving birth faster and faster each time.

 

Never mind the fact that I'm sorely needed at home.

 

Thanks for the advice about cord clamping. I'm actually leaning towards not clamping at this point, but am still keeping an open mind. I don't need placental complications after the birth, if you know what I mean.

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#76 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Careful, this is not what a grieving mother needs to hear. I personally was offended by your post up thread about how a miscarriage is caused by poor nutrition. SIDS and miscarriage happen at no fault to the mother, no matter what her nutrition was. Please watch what you say and realize that "theories" like this are best left unsaid on a forum such as this.

 

I fail to see the offense. That's like saying you were raped because an evil guy was stalking you. The because does not turn it into your fault!

 

Like I mentioned, I was partly the cause of my first miscarriage. I know how that complicates things emotionally. I learned then and there that even the coolest, most unusual, most natural birth friendly-seeming OB can be a total ... you know. I take charge of my health care from now on. They just consult and help, if I let them.

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#77 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The fetal doppler you've been using has the exact same technology as an ultrasound. That's why I was so perplexed you were willing to use one but not the other. 


Not according to what I've read. The technology is all over the place. A 30 minute high powered ultrasound capable of heating tissues to the point of creating DNA bubbles is not the same as a 5 minute battery operated doppler.

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#78 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Given your dh's serious illness, it is likely you will need significant help with this pregnancy.  There is a chance that it will, at some point, be be necessary for you to spend time in the hospital or on bed rest.  It could be a matter of life or death.  What resources are available in your community?  What (if anything) can the VA offer you?  Could you find a home health nurse if you needed one? 

 

I've got really helpful kids. My teen is already cooking for me, with supervision, of course. She gets better every day. And thankfully my husband, while fragile, is able to get around and do stuff when he's not having attacks. So he's been there for me, too. We also have a two-man couple here, best friends with us since we married, right next door, who look after us and help with groceries when needed. They can even help with child care sometimes. Nice as they are, I don't think they are prepared to babysit constantly, though.

 

I already spend a lot of time resting, I just have to keep an eye out for everybody from my chair/bed, when I'm not up and about, to keep the chaos from breaking out.

 

My husband is not really up to having strangers in the home, if you know what I mean. Low magnesium levels leave him very vulnerable to stress.

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#79 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Your situation - suspected twins or triplets and TTTS - involves dependent variables. The most common kind of pregnancy is singleton pregnancy. Because these pregnancies involve only one baby, they will not lead to TTTS. Twin pregnancies have risk of TTTS if the babies are a mono-di pair. If not, chances of TTTS are back to 0. Triplet pregnancies have three possible pairs of babies (baby a and baby b, baby a and baby c, baby b and baby c) who could be a mono/di pair. The chances of having one mono/di pair in a set of three are higher, assuming total randomness, simply because there are more possibilities. Thus, rather than it being unlikely that two rare things would happen at the same time, rare event 1 (spontaneous conception of triplets) creates a higher risk of rare event 2 (mono/di pair), which in turn creates the potential for rare event 3 (TTTS). Unfortunately, you don't get to multiply the probabilities together for a vanishingly small fraction here, because each variable increases the probability of the next variable. While I don't have exact numbers, it is clear that your chances of having TTTS in a spontaneous triplet pregnancy are much higher than the 0% probability singleton moms face. The presence of multiples puts you at higher, not lower risk.
Remember, accepting some care does not mean accepting all care. You still get to make decisions. Gathering information allows you to consider your options, identify your resources and plan. Obviously, your ideal is a UC. There are birth situations that fall short of this level of autonomy but still give you a lot of control. There are birth situations that leave you no control at all. The more you plan for alternatives, the higher the chances are that you will get to keep that control.

 

Not bad points. But I would have to use factors that include the chances of suspicions being more than just suspicions before I could start my math. So first multiply my chances of suspicions being correct. So if it's twins it's nearly 0% because of the double ovulation. And since I only suspect triplets are possible, you have to say how many women suspect triplets but go on to have only one or two. I don't know what the odds of that are, but a lot of people suspect multiples and only have one. Problem is, nobody here, even me, can answer if my suspicions are more concrete other mothers' suspicions.

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#80 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 09:55 AM
 
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BlessedJess, I don't know what search terms you're using. Per the CDC, the leading killer of people in the US is heart disease, followed by cancer. I haven't looked at the more detailed tables today. Dr. Mercola is the subject of complaints from the FDA and the Better Business Bureau because of unsubtantiated claims he has made about the nutritional supplements he sells.

And honey, you may NEED a miracle, but God doesn't hand out miracles just because we need them, they are not ordered for us, to meet OUR needs, but by God, to suit His. I'm a practical person, and I don't expect God to always feel that my needs and His are related. By contrast, social service organizations (like the VA) can be moved by human need and human persistence, and have legally enforceable human obligations. I would tell ANY pregnant woman with a disabled husband to make some phone calls.
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#81 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Whew, I'm glad we got those bolded things cleared up.
So, let me get this straight. You havent turned to a doctor for advice since you were 18? Probably the one time in your adult life you went to a doctor? And you had one crappy doctor, and now you are basing medical knowledge on Google and the discovery channel?
Just making sure I have all the facts right.
You still havent answered my question: do you believe that there are triplets or twins? Because when the statistics are shown to you in a way that is high risk for trips, you continue to say that its a low chance that you are even pg with twins. But when you argue, you keep saying triplets and higher order multiples like you do believe there are triplets in your body. Which is it?
PS. just want to state that there are moms who have gained 60+ lbs (eating healthy) and still have ttts.


She wasn't just a crappy OB, she was a respected woman in the natural birth community, from what I understand. A midwife in an OB's profession is how it sounded to me. Someone who would prescribe herbs before antibiotics. I couldn't even get her in trouble for what she did, out of concern for the birthing community if nothing else.

 

And please don't insult my knowledge base with your strange generalization. And for your information, Google has a section called Google scholar. Check it out sometime.

 

I've answered your questions in the previous posts.

 

Define "healthy" for me, please.

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#82 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 10:05 AM
 
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The fetal doppler you've been using has the exact same technology as an ultrasound. That's why I was so perplexed you were willing to use one but not the other. 
Right? I guess this is why it seems so odd to me that you are so, so against the ultrasound. It seems like you dont hesitate to use the technology, you just hesitate to use it in a situation where a doctor could tell you that you are being foolish for not seeking care.

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Careful, this is not what a grieving mother needs to hear. I personally was offended by your post up thread about how a miscarriage is caused by poor nutrition. SIDS and miscarriage happen at no fault to the mother, no matter what her nutrition was. Please watch what you say and realize that "theories" like this are best left unsaid on a forum such as this.

Thanks, Kaydove, but I'd have to take her at least somewhat seriously to care what she thinks about it.


Jess- I went through a super detailed autopsy report for my son, and his blood was tested for pesticide, bug spray, and a million other things. For most of my pregnancy, and for almost all of his 11 weeks here on earth, he was here in my home (built of wood from the land accross the street in the mid 1800's), sleeping on an organic mattress, with pretty much no pollution and very few toxins anywhere around. And FWIW, infant mortality has decreased significantly since this toxic, commercialized world began. We used to lose a lot more babies, and have a lot more infant death. Not everything has an outside cause. Some pregnancies just simply cannot be sustained. Some babies just simply cannot stay alive. Environmental toxins and chemicals and all the other things you site were much less prevelant 200-300 years ago, and infant death rates were way higher. Why do you think that is?

By the way, the number one leading causes of death in the US are heart disease and cancer. I fail to see how this is a doctor's fault.
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Holly and David partners.gif

Adaline love.gif (3/20/10), and Charlie brokenheart.gif (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical  rainbow1284.gif  twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)

SIDS happens. 

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At some point in a pregnancy with multiples, everything is stressful - strangers in the house, the babies in yous belly, fear of going into labor early, concerns about distance from a NICU, labor (regardless of whether it's early or not), the demands of caring for brand new super-tiny babies, your other kids adapting to your condition and the new babies, the list goes on and on.  While avoiding stress is undeniably good for everyone's health, you don't always get to make that choice.  Is there a church or agency in your community you would feel comfortable reaching out to for help with childcare if you need it?  I'm sure you have your teen helping, and I'm sure she's fabulous, but she would probably need significant support if, for example, you had to go on bed rest and your dh had a bad spell.

 

No one is ever really in a great situation to have twins or triplets without support.  In both the long and short term, the best way to preserve your health and your babies' health is to actively reach out for some help.  If the stress of having strangers in the house on a planned basis or calling doctors' offices to schedule an ultrasound is bad for you and your dh, imagine what the stress of having a medical emergency with one or more babies in serious distress and/or you in a critical condition with no help on hand and having to call the EMS for heliport to the nearest hospital with NICU would be like.  I'm not trying to bring this up to stress you out and trash UC.  I'm trying to suggest that with concrete information about exactly how many babies are in there and what kind of conditions or complications they are/are not facing, you will be better able to evaluate your situation identify the resources you may need to handle any difficulties that arise with minimal strain on your family.  Your ideas about the protective impacts of nutrition seem like wishful thinking on your part.  Things can go wrong in ANY pregnancy in the healthiest of mothers, and more things can go wrong in a multiple pregnancy, no matter how attentive you are to your nutrition and stress levels.

 

An ultrasound will not boil your DNA.  If it was producing that much heat, it would cause third degree burns. 

 

Gently mama, are you unwilling to seek care because you can't afford it?  Do you need help applying for Medicaid? 

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#84 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MeepyCat View Post

BlessedJess, I don't know what search terms you're using. Per the CDC, the leading killer of people in the US is heart disease, followed by cancer. I haven't looked at the more detailed tables today. Dr. Mercola is the subject of complaints from the FDA and the Better Business Bureau because of unsubtantiated claims he has made about the nutritional supplements he sells.
And honey, you may NEED a miracle, but God doesn't hand out miracles just because we need them, they are not ordered for us, to meet OUR needs, but by God, to suit His. I'm a practical person, and I don't expect God to always feel that my needs and His are related. By contrast, social service organizations (like the VA) can be moved by human need and human persistence, and have legally enforceable human obligations. I would tell ANY pregnant woman with a disabled husband to make some phone calls.


I understand the VA very well, thank you. Maybe not how they handle the pregnant wives of their disabled veterans, but lets just say that getting disability for him actually made his symptoms worse and we are still trying to recover from that. It's a long and bumpy ride.

 

If you don't believe Mercola, fine. Try some other docs, try the statistical studies they actually quote.

 

You aren't in a position to tell me what miracles are to be granted to my family. His needs and our needs are one. He will provide as He sees fit, and I can trust that. I can't write a book for you about our lives or what God has already done for us. I have to go be a pregnant mommy now. Thanks for reading today, ladies, I'll see you next time....tiphat.gif

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#85 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 10:34 AM
 
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I fail to see the offense. That's like saying you were raped because an evil guy was stalking you. The because does not turn it into your fault!

 

Like I mentioned, I was partly the cause of my first miscarriage. I know how that complicates things emotionally. I learned then and there that even the coolest, most unusual, most natural birth friendly-seeming OB can be a total ... you know. I take charge of my health care from now on. They just consult and help, if I let them.

 

You're suggesting that if I had better nutrition, I wouldn't have had my miscarriage. Nutrition is something I control and choose, not rape so your analogy fails. Saying that if I had made better choices regarding my nutrition during my first pregnancy, I wouldn't have miscarried, is placing the blame on me. It may seem like I'm being overly sensitive but if I would have read that while I was miscarrying, it would have been devastating.


DD Seraphina born at home on 2/21/2012! 

"Childbirth is more admirable than conquest, more amazing than self-defense, and as courageous as either one."
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#86 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You're suggesting that if I had better nutrition, I wouldn't have had my miscarriage. Nutrition is something I control and choose, not rape so your analogy fails. Saying that if I had made better choices regarding my nutrition during my first pregnancy, I wouldn't have miscarried, is placing the blame on me. It may seem like I'm being overly sensitive but if I would have read that while I was miscarrying, it would have been devastating.

Nutrition can be sabotaged outside your control. Examples; a hushed up nuclear accident near your home (semi vally) or fracking near your water supply, or damages to your system from childhood vaccines preventing you from using your nutrition. Or someone shooting Wi-Fi through your house without you knowing it, smart meters, smog, etc. It's hard to anticipate and compensate for everything, and if your digestive system is already compromised without your knowledge you could be in for a nasty surprise. Another example, 98% of us wouldn't touch GMOs if they were labeled, which is why they are not.

 

Shall I go on?

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Originally Posted by BlessedJess View Post

Nutrition can be sabotaged outside your control. Examples; a hushed up nuclear accident near your home (semi vally) or fracking near your water supply, or damages to your system from childhood vaccines preventing you from using your nutrition. Or someone shooting Wi-Fi through your house without you knowing it, smart meters, smog, etc. It's hard to anticipate and compensate for everything, and if your digestive system is already compromised without your knowledge you could be in for a nasty surprise. Another example, 98% of us wouldn't touch GMOs if they were labeled, which is why they are not.

Shall I go on?

I think the sense that most of us are getting here is that whatever bad things happen to us, happened because of causes beyond our knowledge or control, however, since you evidently live in a sleepy little backwater with your own well and no neighbors and a utility company that still sends a guy in a truck to read the meter, you can dial into the internet and smugly assure us that YOU have no need to worry.

I'd rather you didn't go on. Your message has come through plenty clear.

I'm gonna hang over my back fence and have it out with the neighbors about whose wifi caused my cancer, and whether we should make that local restaurant with the rooftop garden admit that their tomatoes caused my miscarriage, or if it's a better bet to make the power company go back to the system where a strange man wandered through all our backyards and freaked out the dogs once a month.
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#88 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think the sense that most of us are getting here is that whatever bad things happen to us, happened because of causes beyond our knowledge or control, however, since you evidently live in a sleepy little backwater with your own well and no neighbors and a utility company that still sends a guy in a truck to read the meter, you can dial into the internet and smugly assure us that YOU have no need to worry.
I'd rather you didn't go on. Your message has come through plenty clear.
I'm gonna hang over my back fence and have it out with the neighbors about whose wifi caused my cancer, and whether we should make that local restaurant with the rooftop garden admit that their tomatoes caused my miscarriage, or if it's a better bet to make the power company go back to the system where a strange man wandered through all our backyards and freaked out the dogs once a month.


You don't need to be here on my thread if you disagree with my philosophy so strongly. I'm not blaming you-all for what you are going through, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I think my risks are the same as everybody else at this point. It doesn't make it a woman's fault if she gets tackled and raped and she couldn't stop it because she didn't have a gun in her purse, but a survivor might just go to some extreme lengths to ensure she will defend herself or die trying rather than go through it all again.

 

You are welcome to your opinions about whether or not your environment sabotaged your nutrition. If you don't want to live your life like a hillbilly, that's up to you. Frankly, my opinion is that the city environment is a trap and most people can't get out. Don't hate me because I'm lucky. And since that means you are probably stuck, if you want to try to mitigate it, that's up to you. If you want to accept the risks and ignore them fine, but don't come along and try to beat me down for my health theories which are not standing in judgment against you or anybody else.

 

My point is only that crap happens to people when they least expect it. It happened to me personally once. Some of us are willing to go to extremes to see that it doesn't happen again. If I think that way and feel that way it doesn't need to become your problem.  I don't see why I'm getting this attitude from some of you.

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#89 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Right? I guess this is why it seems so odd to me that you are so, so against the ultrasound. It seems like you dont hesitate to use the technology, you just hesitate to use it in a situation where a doctor could tell you that you are being foolish for not seeking care.
Thanks, Kaydove, but I'd have to take her at least somewhat seriously to care what she thinks about it.
Jess- I went through a super detailed autopsy report for my son, and his blood was tested for pesticide, bug spray, and a million other things. For most of my pregnancy, and for almost all of his 11 weeks here on earth, he was here in my home (built of wood from the land accross the street in the mid 1800's), sleeping on an organic mattress, with pretty much no pollution and very few toxins anywhere around. And FWIW, infant mortality has decreased significantly since this toxic, commercialized world began. We used to lose a lot more babies, and have a lot more infant death. Not everything has an outside cause. Some pregnancies just simply cannot be sustained. Some babies just simply cannot stay alive. Environmental toxins and chemicals and all the other things you site were much less prevelant 200-300 years ago, and infant death rates were way higher. Why do you think that is?
By the way, the number one leading causes of death in the US are heart disease and cancer. I fail to see how this is a doctor's fault.

 

What? I "don't hesitate" to use a doppler? I've been pregnant 5 times and resisted getting one. This pregnancy I've used it once since I bought it and resisted getting it until very recently. I had to have other debates about this with friendly, reasonable, considerate professional people who worked with the technology and were willing to go into detail to explain why they thought it was different, while not denying the unknowns and risks of routine U/S. When the explanations made sense I stopped resisting, for the most part. I'm waiting to do my next 5 min doppler session until I'm 24 weeks, unless something weird happens, and then it will be my first compromise. I'm keeping an open mind, just not so open that my brains fall out. ;-)

 

As for your son's death.... this isn't about you, but if it was, you still don't know all there is to know. Autopsies are great tools. But most people are willing to admit that they don't know everything, even when they've turned every stone. If you know absolutely everything about what happened and still don't have a why, maybe quantum theory is where you can turn for answers. AKA pure randomness. I'm not telling you what to believe about your son. Please don't make this personal. This is about why I believe my risks are different than your random study sample of triplet pregnancies.

 

You already know the things you did reduced his odds of dying or you wouldn't have done it. Maybe it's not a 100% reduction of all risks. Maybe that's impossible to do but to say that you didn't make a difference makes you a helpless victim at the mercy of.... well... what? Do we just ignore infant mortality links to the multitude of environmental factors because it could still happen at random? Did you stop risk-reducing for your children yet? Do you not feel that you do things daily that increase their odds of health and survival?

 

Not all iatrogenic events get recorded. So there's that. We have a whole section here where people talk about not vaxing. Why? Why are only a tiny percentage of those adverse events getting recorded? And yet despite this we have many, many people recognized as dying of aitrogenic causes. What numbers would you agree with? Where do you stand on that? Because we can work with your perspective. It matters not to me if it's #1 or #3 in your mind. The essence of the point I made remains. Unless you want to tell me it's actually really rare and can back that up somehow.

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#90 of 103 Old 07-15-2012, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not here to entertain or be irritating. If you don't like my thread, don't read. Please.

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