Please explain to me why.. - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-09-2013, 02:18 PM
 
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You just don't get it. And for you to say that I lack education is completely disrespectful. I can see that this is going no where and I have no intentions of changing where I stand on this subject.
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:27 PM
 
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:28 PM
 
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Also I don't understand why people are still arguing. Bone thinks the risks to UC for breech are substantial, others disagree. The disagreement is largely because what some people classify as substantial others find acceptable. Why argue about something that is a matter of opinion? This makes no sense.

 

Telling women what they should do with their bodies because they are pregnant and you feel entitled is sexist. It's the feeling entitled to dictate to women matters about their bodies that's key. Not the percentages. Women should always have a choice, period. For a very intelligent discussion as to why women should always have this choice, even if it means some preventable deaths will occur, check out this ACOG article on the subject. As the authors state, even a utilitarian would agree that this is the least evil option.

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:20 PM
 
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Good point, Viola! I was just thinking about this myself a little bit ago that this whole thing is nonsense because I don't care what the "facts" are, I would do whatever I felt best for me and baby at the time.
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:25 PM
 
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Yeah, we totally need to take back our bodies, this has been going on for far too long. And arguing about the percentages just gives credibility to the notion that our bodies aren't our own, doesn't it? I mean, is it really about whether the risk is %5, 3 of 5%, 0.06%, or some other %? And one of those %s is the magical one where if we do it we're - what - monsters? It's no one's business but our own what we do with our bodies. I refuse to play the numbers game with bone because it misses the point entirely, imo

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:28 PM
 
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I agree.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sgnorton123 View Post

Sad random! I've read so much about breech births. It seems to me that they are just another variation of normal. I don't understand
Why obs freak out and think they need to automatically cut them out. I read that's just what they've been taught and because they have absolutely no experience in natural breech birth they won't even attempt it...or maybe it's just another excuse to c section babies out...think I read that pays out like ten times more than vaginal birth, not to mention they can have baby out in twenty minutes as opposed to sitting around waiting for them to come naturally...they'd like to get home to dinner I guess :-P

I think they were trained that way. I think the bottom line was being afraid of being sued.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:39 PM
 
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I've read a lot of accounts of breech home births, and there are two things that are repeated quite frequently. First, there is generally a description of how the midwife had to do some fairly complex maneuvers to ensure that the baby didn't get stuck. Second, there is often a moment when the mother is told to push as hard as she can because "we need to get this baby out." The reason that the baby needs to get out is that there is a very real risk of suffering irreversible damage if it doesn't. That's a dangerous situation even when it's being managed by an experienced midwife. It is far more dangerous when it is being managed by a exhausted and inexperienced mother on her own.

Bone2pick, I can see why you are concerned, however, I have researched breech births much over the years (my breech baby is now nearly 22 years old) because I have an obvious personal interest in the subject, and I have found that if a mother is left to her instincts, the breech baby is most likely to be born just fine without any machinations from an attendant. Standing, or giving birth in water seem to be the two best ways, and my instincts ran toward water at the time I was laboring with my baby.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:49 PM
 
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My last delivery was an emergency cesarean. My placenta abrupted with no signs leading up to it. Had I attempted UC I can't say either myself or my DS would be here.


Lulu0190, this is where knowledge and mother's intuition come into play. A mother can intuit that something is wrong. UC is not about having a baby alone at all costs. Many who have planned a UC chose not to have one at the last minute because they "felt" they needed to go to a hospital, and consequent events proved their intuition accurate.

 

Placenta previa is something that was discussed much on the Mothering forums back when there were more uc-friendly threads and posts. The women who choose to UC do not do so lightly nor ignorantly.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:54 PM
 
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also- I'd like to add this is the UC forum...most ucers feel very strongly about their decision and the community of ucers isnt super huge. so we come here to chat with each other and encourage each other...it just isnt right for outsiders against our ways or beliefs to come into this forum and bash our decisions. if you don't like it dont read it. don't come to it.

 

sgnorton123, Amen and Amen. There are very few pro-UC boards to come to.

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Old 12-10-2013, 05:58 PM
 
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lol this whole discussion, in my understanding, is based on relatively low risk pregnancies, & you're bringing the high risk scenario in and likening it to my analogies in which I never mentioned anything having to do w/high risk, nor have any of the other posters. So if you want to know what us UC'ers would do in a high risk situation please start another thread, because that is not what we are discussing here.  


And you've made it clear as have many others that they don't agree w/our stance on birthing alone, so what are ya'll still doing here?! You're not going to change our minds and this is a SUPPORT forum so if you don't support women doing UC's kindly leave the thread and let us be. We're happy to answers questions, which we've done for the OP and now this is getting beyond that. So I'm drawing the line.

 

 :yeah   

prescottchels, well said.

 

Ditto the comment about breech births. My baby was very healthy and very alert when she was born. There were no risk factors in my pregnancy.

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Old 12-10-2013, 07:04 PM
 
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There were some very awesome posts on this thread. I would have commented on more of them, but my computer and the forum are fighting with each other and to even give a "good post" click caused the whole thread to reload and stop at the first post again, so it has been painful going through the thread.

 

I just want to commend my fellow UCers. Even though I never heard of such a thing until after I had my babies, I support it wholeheartedly. And I agree that personal intuition and decision is more important than statistics - which can be (and often is) skewed and never accurately reveals truth in any instance of which I am aware.

 

Bone2pick, I posted what I did about statistics before I saw your post above and what I said about statistics had nothing to do with your post. Just so you know.

 

This site is being so slow and "giving me fits," so to speak, that I will log off and check back another day.

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Old 12-10-2013, 10:31 PM
 
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@lulu your experience sounds horrible and it's very regrettable that you went through it. I understand why you'd feel more comfortable in a hospital after an experience like that. While UC may clearly be a wrong choice for you personally because of some personal experiences, others may feel that a hospital birth is unacceptable for them for their own reasons.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:21 AM
 
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Bone 2 pick, I'm not for or against unassisted delivery, but reading your posts has made me feel a lot more comfortable with ud. I felt bullied into decisions with my last and your tone puts me in mind of that. I don't want to be bullied into making decisions. I will research with an open mind ALL my options for my body and my birth. It's great that you know what is right for you and I'm glad you haven't had any experiences with hospitals that have left you reluctant to go back. That is something to be very greatful for.
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Old 12-11-2013, 05:22 PM
 
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Well, I've only just skimmed this thread for the most part, but I wanted to add my own two cents/experience. :)

 

First of all, why do I choose UC.  I've never given birth in a hospital, I don't hate doctors, and I'm not afraid of hospitals.  In fact, the one time I've seen an OB for this pregnancy, I loved him.  He was great, and he not only supported my decision to UP but also to UC.  Although, the thought of having to fight around hospital protocol when I'm in labor does not sound fun to me, and I'd venture to guess that I'd probably just have stalled labors if I tried going in to a hospital to give birth.  Anyway, my reasoning is simply that it's what has always seemed right to me, for me.  Here's something I typed up a while ago regarding my decisions:

 

Ever since I was a kid, I was always very interested in babies, pregnancy, and birth. I always envisioned myself giving birth in a quiet space where I felt comfortable - all alone. That when I did eventually get pregnant, when I went into labor I wouldn't tell anyone, I'd just find my comfortable place and wait for my baby to come. I never gave it any intensive thought though, these were just fleeting thoughts that I had.
 

Fast forward to my first pregnancy (fall of 2009). Once pregnant, I realized that I would eventually have to give birth, and I started thinking about how I wanted to birth at home. It didn't really cross my mind to try and find a midwife. Either way, I began researching birth, and I came across some freebirth/unassisted childbirth websites, and I was like, Yes, this is what I want!! I was so excited that I wasn't alone in wanting to birth by myself. Furthermore, I didn't fear birth and I was so excited to experience it.

 

One thing that was alarming (and surprising) to me were all of the routine interventions they do in the hospital to laboring women, and how all of these interventions can really upset the birth process and cause complications. I wanted to avoid this at all costs, because the health of my baby and myself were of utmost importance to me, and I felt that I was actually lowering my risk if I birthed outside of the hospital.

 

As I researched more and more (and read birth stories and watched birth videos), I was even more set in my decision to birth unassisted, mostly because I realized that I was not a good candidate for hospital birth. I would not be a "good patient," and I would absolutely hate the experience. No way was anyone going to be bothering me when I was in labor, at such an intense, special time in my life.  I needed to be completely in control, and I didn't want to have to tell anyone to back off with whatever they wanted to stick up or in me.  It would very much upset me to have to fight people while I'm in labor, and I felt I might not be able to say no if all I could do was focus on contractions. 

 

I also know now that what is good for the mother is good for the baby.

 

The birth experience was definitely very important to me. I knew that birth could be wonderful. I wanted a lovely, powerful, calm experience while meeting my child. I worried about bonding, and I knew that the best chance I had at bonding was having a natural, undisturbed birth. 

So let's talk about safety.  We all know that with birth, or really anything in our world, there comes risk.  Risk of things not going our way, risk of death.  We risk death just by being alive.  The key is to just reduce risk as much as possible.  Going to a hospital to give birth is not always the best way to reduce risk for any one labor or birth, but it certainly can be.  It depends on the situation and the individuals in question.  Generally, I think home birth (unassisted or not) is safer than hospital birth.  I don't think that can be said of every situation, I just think that hospital birth should be the exception and not the rule.  I also believe that birthing with a trained birth attendant present is generally safer than not.  Unassisted birth should also be the exception and not the rule, which it pretty much is.  I will not tell someone that is not interested in birthing UA in the first place that that's something she should consider.  Some women want support persons and/or medical personnel.  Some don't.  I personally thought I'd want a few friends/family members to be there for my births.  Truth is, I don't.  It just causes me a bunch of anxiety.

As far as breech birth goes?  I believe that vaginal breech birth is generally safer than breech birth by cesarean.  Each carries its own set of risks, of course.  But generally, there are less associated with vaginal birth, and that goes for the mother baby pair, not just the mother, and not just the baby.  Would I feel comfortable giving birth to a breech babe unassisted?  Absolutely.  Would I tell someone else to?  Probably not.

I believe that the safest birth is birth that is completely on the mother's terms.  Safe birth happens when a woman feels loved, supported, cared for, comfortable, safe, etc.  Safe birth happens when the person that is giving birth is in control.  Another big thing is health.  Safe birth happens when you are healthy, mentally and physically.  When you give your body what it needs to function normally, it will most likely function normally.  And vice versa.  So not only does maternity care in the U.S. suck, but a lot of people have health problems these days.  We are constantly bombarded with toxins and carcinogens through our food, water, air, and environment in general.  Some people choose to put bad things in their body, even if they know it's bad for them.

For me, I've always had good health.  I generally stay away from things that are bad for me as best I can, I eat healthy, and I keep mentally healthy.  I have a very healthy view of birth - in other words, I do not fear it, but at the same time, I respect it.  I believe my body is going to work for me, and it has.  I am very in tune with my body, and I trust that I will know the best course of action for it better than anyone else ever could.  I have had a set of twins and a singleton (due with a fourth any day) completely unassisted.  Short labors.  Easy births.  No serious complications.  I don't think it was luck, as I am of the belief that everything in our universe is based on cause and effect.  Everything that happens, happens as a result of a cause.  I am also of the belief that whatever you hold in your mind most strongly will come true.  It is amazing how our bodies will respond to our thoughts and feelings.  A good example is someone vomiting from anxiety, or getting a headache just from sheer stress.

I'm a good candidate for UC.  Most people are not.  Part of that is probably a cultural thing, but even so, most cultures involve experienced birth attendants at each birth, medically trained or not.  I will not say that we are completely like animals (even though we are still just animals) and can just go off somewhere alone and push out a baby.  Some of us can do that, but most of us want someone there, as we are an extremely complex, social species.  And though birth is fairly difficult for our species, I don't think we were designed more poorly than any other species.

Anyway, I hope I'm making sense.  I just wanted to add one more thing that I was explaining to someone the other day.  One reason I believe that unassisted childbirth generally works so well:

You would be surprised how our bodies work together with those of our babies when we are left to labor on our own (not necessarily alone, but on our own) naturally and move however we see fit. I think one really important thing, physiology aside, is allowing a mother to enter an altered state of mind I like to call "labor land." In this state, it not only makes it much easier to deal with contractions, but it also makes it easier for the mother to delve deep inside herself so she knows exactly what to do (in this state, as long as she didn't have any distractions or someone suggesting things to her, a mother would know if she needed help) and what she's feeling. I have been told that I look very calm and collected in my birth video with Maribel. Well, that's why: labor land. If I had a lot of distractions and drugs that were messing up my hormones, it would make it extremely difficult to reach this state of mind. And thus, labor would become unbearable. I wouldn't be able to focus on just getting my baby out. 

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Old 12-11-2013, 08:01 PM
 
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Beautifully said almi! :-) all I know is I don't want to go through childbirth again frustrated, angry, uncomfortable, feeling violated and weak/vulnerable...I don't want the hospital again, nor do I even want a midwife...looking forward to my experience this time around :-)
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:15 PM
 
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You nailed it, as far as I'm concerned, Almi. I may have different views about how our thoughts affect reality (or maybe I don't, and would express it differently? ), but that sums up a lot of my thoughts and reasons surrounding UC. Thank you.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:28 PM
 
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 I may have different views about how our thoughts affect reality (or maybe I don't, and would express it differently? )

Ha, I'd be interested in hearing. :)

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Old 12-11-2013, 11:20 PM
 
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Yes, I'm not disagreeing with that.  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make though.

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Old 12-12-2013, 08:27 AM
 
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That was my disagreement about the wording of how thoughts affect things. There will be times when nothing a person does can give them the outcome they want, and that is sad and tragic. And no one's fault.

I still believe that a person's emotional state affects their physical state, and with birth each woman should think about what that means for them. And they might want to consider that in their risk assessment. If you think I'm saying that a person can ensure or expect a positive outcome based on their emotions, actions, or anything else, then go back and read my first paragraph.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:11 AM
 
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I understand what you're saying, cyclamen, and I agree with you. I was also referencing Almi's post because I agree with the vast majority of what she's saying as well.
For some people feeling safe might be a necessary component of, or vitally important to, a safe birth, but it does not guarantee a safe birth. You and I seem to agree on that.
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:07 PM
 
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I think feeling safe does make birth safer, at least it would for me. I think it's like this for all animals - when the mother is in stress during birth it becomes less safe.

 

Deadly accidents happen in hospitals too. Just Google "cesarean death" and several news stories will come up with horrible stories about mothers that died after giving birth by (unnecessary?) c-section in hospitals.

 

My friend just had a beautiful successful u/d for her second child after a very traumatic hospital birth with her first child. She told me that she accepted before she uc'd that she'd rather her baby die at home of natural causes than die at the hospital or worse, die in the hospital because of the hospital.

 

I know a woman who birthed at the same hospital i did and a nurse accidentally gave her a dose of a medication that was 400x the maximum amount. As a result her baby flatlined for 4 minutes at birth and she went into a temporary coma. The child is now older and has behavioural problems, which she believes is due to what happened at the birth. Hospitals sometimes create more dangerous situations.

 

In my situation my baby became distressed because of all the interventions. His birth wasn't just traumatic for me, it was utterly terrifying for him. I still feel guilty that i went to the hospital unnecessarily and subjected him to that. Just the thought of how terrified he must have been brings tears to my eyes. I know it was unnecessary, that the hospital caused the harm that it then tried to fix, and harmed us both greatly. 

 

Of course, some women absolutely need to be in a hospital due to their own choice, and that needs to be respected as well.

 

There is no way to avoid the very sad fact that not all babies survive childbirth. Even if all births took place in the hospital, some would still die - and some would die because they were in the hospital. Likewise, even if all women felt totally supported and were totally respected during birth at home, some babies would still die - and some would die because they didn't have access to hospital services. There is no way to avoid this.

 

All we can do is support and respect each other in our choices, even if they are not the choices we would make for ourselves.

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Old 12-12-2013, 05:54 PM
 
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There is no way to avoid the very sad fact that not all babies survive childbirth. Even if all births took place in the hospital, some would still die - and some would die because they were in the hospital. Likewise, even if all women felt totally supported and were totally respected during birth at home, some babies would still die - and some would die because they didn't have access to hospital services. There is no way to avoid this.

 

All we can do is support and respect each other in our choices, even if they are not the choices we would make for ourselves.

This.  Well said.

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Old 12-13-2013, 06:47 AM
 
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"I've birthed 3 breech babies, one vaginally and two through cesarean ('elective' as my ob is skilled in and offered a vaginal birth, which I declined with the same intuition that makes UC'ers UC'ers)."

Good for you. Then, you will understand when I tell you that what I do with my body is none of your business, and ultimately, I will do what I feel is right for my baby and me.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:28 AM
 
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@waiting, seriously?
I find it so strange that people have such a problem with how we choose to labor and give birth. Seriously, I don't care what you do with your body, it's yours, and if cesareans make you happy then by all means, have at it. I know what's best for me and will be in control of my own body, thank you very much.

On a side note, I sure wish this forum was private, it's getting annoying to have so many people here lately that offer no support to a UC support forum.
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:09 AM
 
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Ya, seriously. The anti UCers hanging around fear mongering is getting ridiculous. This is after all the uc forum where fellow UCers come for support. There's such a small community of that to begin with. Geez people! If you're so against uc just stay outta the forum.

I do however have another reply to the context. Shit happens. Yes we know that! But we prefer not to live in fear and the what ifs when that chance is so very slim. So enough said! Yikes!
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:18 AM
 
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How do we make it private?
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:24 AM
 
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I have no idea but it'd sure be nice!
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:37 AM
 
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There is a private uc lounge. I think you can see the instructions for joining under the uc header.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:38 AM
 
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Thanks! I'll look into it.
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