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#61 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmama
Yes, you do tend to stop bleeding when you've exsanguinated. Body is funny that way.

If trained Medical Staff couldn't diagnose it the first time, why are you expecting untrained persons to be able to?
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#62 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 06:24 PM
 
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1) Because clearly she had been bleeding for some time. Hemorrhage seems a pretty clear reason to seek medical care.

2) She was unconscious for an HOUR before they sought help. Again, unconscious=might want some help here, as something is clearly not right.

Being laypeople doesn't excuse them from common sense.

mama to Max (2/02) and Sophie (10/06); wife to my fabulous girl
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#63 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmama
Hemorrhage seems a pretty clear reason to seek medical care.
You mean Western Medical Care? I know many births where hemorrhaging occured and NO Western Medicine was used to stop/control the bleeding.
Western Medicine is based on money, not healing.
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#64 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 07:32 PM
 
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I really find this whole argument to be interesting because reading it sort of makes me lean toward yes, home birth midwives should be licensed in every state and that probably, if a mom doesn't want a licensed midwife at home with her--she is better off without anyone who claims any sort of expertise and everyone being hands off. Bad help and poor care is worse than NO care because it could lead a mother to not seek help in a situation life this.

I watched a lot of the trial and I tend to agree with Mom of 7--they were motivated to protect themselves. There was tons of testimony about them disposing of evidence. Not calling after she was unconcious ??

: : : : : I am dressing up as the Medical Industry and Western Medicine who can save everyone and can't ever save anyone and should alternately be blamed for trying and sued for failing and want to steal money and kill women for Halloween. Boo! Trick or Treat !!! : : : : :

but if I attend a birth with a doppler, in scrubs, do vag exams and try to give you rectal gatorade......I'm not a midwife I have no responsibilty and you can't blame me the blame is all with you you were stupid enough to trust me?
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#65 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Western Medicine is based on money, not healing.
Heyl, then where's my share of that money?

I'm not sure where this reflexive and arrogant attitude about the complete incompetence and venality of Western medicine (presumably to be contrasted with the complete competence and benevolence of whatever medical system you do subscribe to) comes from, but I assume that were you to be hit by a bus, one should not call an ambulance. Nor, in the case of an accidental amputation, would you want a transfusion or, for that matter, closure of the skin. In the case of congestive heart failure, it's more complicated: would digitalis be okay, since it comes from foxglove, or would you need to eat the foxglove straight to avoid any contamination of Western medicine? If you were to have an allergic reaction to a food, would an epinephrine shot be okay (since it's a copy of a chemical present in your body)?

If you truly think there's no cross-pollination among medical systems, the only reason I can come up with is willful ignorance.

mama to Max (2/02) and Sophie (10/06); wife to my fabulous girl
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#66 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
You mean Western Medical Care? I know many births where hemorrhaging occured and NO Western Medicine was used to stop/control the bleeding.
What does this have to do with "Western Medicine"? I didn't see ANY treatment given for PPH in the case - Western, Indian, Chinese, Martian... Oh wait, maybe the gatorade enema works on Martians? :

I'll bet in the cases you saw where PPH was stopped, there was *some* reasonable treatment provided, be it herbs or eating the placenta... SOMETHING that has some reasonable chance of affecting PPH. Am I right? I doubt that everyone just sat there and watched the woman bleed, and she miraculously got better with no treatment at all.

To me, this is a very clear case of women practicing midwifery with NO TRAINING (and I don't mean going to midwifery school or nursing school or any type of school... some midwives learn by apprenticing under another experienced midwife). These women should not be practicing midwifery if they can't handle a case of PPH. And if their "treatments" aren't working, yes, they need to call for help from "Western Medicine", because you know what? It has often saved lives. And anyone who doesn't see the value of it in certain cases is being just as blind as those who follow it without ever questioning its validity. At least, that's my opinion. :
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#67 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmama

I'm not sure where this reflexive and arrogant attitude about the complete incompetence and venality of Western medicine (presumably to be contrasted with the complete competence and benevolence of whatever medical system you do subscribe to) comes from, but I assume that were you to be hit by a bus, one should not call an ambulance.
Exactly. You don't know me. I have had 2nd and 3rd degree burns and many injuries that Western Medical Staff told me I was going to die from. I left their care and sought out my own Traditional healing, tyvm.
Also, I have gone to college and studied medicine. Western Medicine does not heal, and rarely cures anyone.
I fell over 15 feet and broke my kneecap and and leg bones. Didn't need narcotics nor Western medicine to completely heal and walk again, even though, Western Doctors told my mother I would never walk and would need countless surgeries.
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#68 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mamabearing
Bad help and poor care is worse than NO care because it could lead a mother to not seek help in a situation life this.

I watched a lot of the trial and I tend to agree with Mom of 7--they were motivated to protect themselves. There was tons of testimony about them disposing of evidence. Not calling after she was unconcious ??

but if I attend a birth with a doppler, in scrubs, do vag exams and try to give you rectal gatorade......I'm not a midwife I have no responsibilty and you can't blame me the blame is all with you you were stupid enough to trust me?
Then why would the husband testify that he and his wife were in charge? Why shouldn't the husband be charged with manslaughter or failure to seek medical assistance for his wife and newborn???
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#69 of 132 Old 06-03-2006, 11:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Then why would the husband testify that he and his wife were in charge? Why shouldn't the husband be charged with manslaughter or failure to seek medical assistance for his wife and newborn???
Because he's lying and trying to protect his mother and sister in law, and possibly himself?

And he's not being charged because he was NOT "in charge". His mother and sister in law were.
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#70 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 01:19 AM
 
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Well, this thread is really illuminating for me part of the reason why so many states make laws to regulate the practice of midwifery. I was going along thinking it was just about the greedy medical industry. But apparently it is also that there are people who trust that the state and medical establishment know exactly what consititutes appropriate birth care, and do not believe that individuals have the ability to make valid choices outside of that. Therefore, they must be prevented from doing so.

My first birth was done according to the state's rules, and it was a mismanaged, traumatic mess. For my second birth I specifically hired an unlicensed midwife to attend because I didn't want the same problems cropping up due to her feeling bound to follow some damn protocol, and so was able to have a normal birth.

I do not hold either of those midwives responsible for the outcomes. I made the choice to hire them and give some of my power over to them. I was ultimately responsible, and that's how it should be. How do we expect women to become powerful when they will not take responsibility for their own choices? It's easier to play the victim, I guess. But when you give up your power, you give up your freedom. And that's just what's happening here. I'm sorry, but no one has the right to tell me who I have at my birth and what I can and can't have them do. This is my body, my baby, and my family, and I do know better than the state what's best for us.

So no, I don't agree that unlicensed birth attendants should be punished for playing the roles the parents have requested of them, regardless of the outcome. In my opinion that would be immoral and a slippery slope to loss of freedom for those of us that don't want the state controlling us. But as far as the tragedy that this thread is about, if the intentions of the "midwives" toward the mother were indeed less than honorable (and that sounds like the case,) and that was what resulted in death, that is reason for conviction.
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#71 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
I'm sorry, but no one has the right to tell me who I have at my birth and what I can and can't have them do. This is my body, my baby, and my family, and I do know better than the state what's best for us.
Thank you!!!
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#72 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 09:11 AM
 
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But apparently it is also that there are people who trust that the state and medical establishment know exactly what consititutes appropriate birth care, and do not believe that individuals have the ability to make valid choices outside of that. Therefore, they must be prevented from doing so.
Not quite. As has been repeated many, many times here, choosing your birth attendant or an unassisted birth is a right protected by law here in Florida. No one is going to prosecute a woman or her family who chooses an unassisted birth. The laws are written not to protect people from themselves, but protect people from other people who misrepresent themselves as having a skill or training that they do not possess.
I'm wondering if you all would feel the same way if the women in question were pretending to be physicians? A few years ago here in Florida, Miami, in fact, a dentist, who was accepting insurance and Medicaid payments and practicing for years, was found to be guilty of practicing without a license. He never had a license, and in fact failed out of his first year of dental school. Lots of people chose him to take care of their mouth and teeth. Does that make them powerless, compliant morons who need to be protected from themselves? Or does that make them deceived and misled? Should he have gone unpunished because people chose him to be their dental attendant?
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#73 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 12:10 PM
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The laws are written not to protect people from themselves, but protect people from other people who misrepresent themselves as having a skill or training that they do not possess.
No money exchanged hands. The mother trusted them the first time and ended in the hospital. Why weren't they charged then?
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#74 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
No money exchanged hands. The mother trusted them the first time and ended in the hospital. Why weren't they charged then?
It was a fairly interesting point about the trial. Before they fired their defense atty he tried to make the fact that the mother died something that was kept from the jury as " too prejudical". Because, what they were charged with was practicing without a license. The judge denied that request.

This was a very unusual case. There was a lot of thought they and the father may have meant harm to this mother. They were charged with what the state could prove.

Still giggling about the Medical Industry and Western Medicine bogeymen....
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#75 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mamabearing
Still giggling about the Medical Industry and Western Medicine bogeymen....
http://www.mic.ki.se/West.html

http://gancao.net/ht/comparison.shtml

Obviously, there is no iinternet link for traditional Anishinabeg medicine.
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#76 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 01:13 PM
 
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Not quite. As has been repeated many, many times here, choosing your birth attendant or an unassisted birth is a right protected by law here in Florida.
I'm confused, then. Isn't it true that under Florida law an unlicensed midwife cannot assist in a birth?

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The laws are written not to protect people from themselves, but protect people from other people who misrepresent themselves as having a skill or training that they do not possess.
How did these women misrepresent themselves? Let's assume they called themselves "midwives". Tell me then, what is the official definition of "midwife", and who owns it?

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I'm wondering if you all would feel the same way if the women in question were pretending to be physicians? A few years ago here in Florida, Miami, in fact, a dentist, who was accepting insurance and Medicaid payments and practicing for years, was found to be guilty of practicing without a license. He never had a license, and in fact failed out of his first year of dental school. Lots of people chose him to take care of their mouth and teeth.
The difference is that they were deliberately misled and lied to. If they had known that this dentist had not gone to dental school and was not licensed, they surely would have not chosen him to do their care. Say they had anyway, though, with complete understanding of his background and knowing he wasn't licensed. They would have then been fully responsible for making that choice. I mean, I'm sorry, but I find it ridiculous that if I have someone do a medical procedure on me, knowing full well that they do not have certain training and licensure, that should be *my* choice and *my* responsibility. I find it ludicrous that if I, say, have my husband set my broken leg or give me pain medication, knowing that he did not go to medical school and is not licensed as a doctor, that somehow he has committed a crime.

The other difference is that midwifery is not inherently a medical discipline, just as birth isn't inherently a medical condition. If we all agree that medicine should be regulated, then medical midwifery (which is essentially obstetrics without the surgery) should also be regulated. It does not follow that all midwifery is medical, and that therefore all midwifery should be regulated. It also does not follow that if a non-medical midwife employs medical techniques in an emergency situation that she is therefore "practicing medicine without a license", any more than it would mean that for any person. If I know a medical technique that the life of my child depends on my using *right now*, should I not use it just because I am not licensed by the state to do so?

If we're going to look at this as an issue of practicing medicine without a license, it comes down to whether they were there to attend the mother in a specifically medical capacity, and how we want to define "medical". Otherwise, it's about whether the parents were deceived in being led to believe that the women had training that they didn't, and whether they and/or the husband meant to cause her harm.
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#77 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 01:36 PM
 
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Still giggling about the Medical Industry and Western Medicine bogeymen....
Are you implying that these are beyond criticism and that there are no conflicts of interest built into the structure? If so, you're wrong. If not... I don't know why the blatant disrespect is warranted, and in any case it violates the MDC user agreement.
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#78 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 01:57 PM
 
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Correct, an unlicensed midwife may not attend births as a midwife in Florida.

What is the definition of "dentist"? Who owns it?



By calling yourself "midwife" you are leading people to believe you have the skills and training of a midwife, however those skills and training were acquired. By calling yourself "dentist" you are leading people to believe you have the skills and training of a dentist. I don't see the huge difference. Lying is lying, no matter what you are lying about.

If I ask my husband to put clove oil, or even ambesol, on my toothache, he is not practicing dentistry. If I ask him to pull it out at home, I may be crazy, but he is still not practicing dentistry. If my husband offers the same services to people in the neighborhood, and he is not a dentist, he is practicing dentistry without a license.

now, there is a big, huge, difference between taking care of yourself and your family and trusting other people to take care of you.
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#79 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 03:52 PM
 
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Are you implying that these are beyond criticism and that there are no conflicts of interest built into the structure? If so, you're wrong. If not... I don't know why the blatant disrespect is warranted, and in any case it violates the MDC user agreement.
There is LOTS wrong with medicine even being an industry. Yes, so many conflicts of interest are there wherever you turn and in ways that are not obvious. I think it is the constant need to capitalize them that "got" me. I should have been more clear that was my point...instead of medical industry it was Medical Industry and maybe Western should be in caps (?) but not medicine. It's really not so monolithic it has become a proper noun. Isn't west sort of a relative term on a globe to begin with? It smacked of paranoia and consiracy fetishism to me thus my less than respectful :

I don't know how long I will stick around posting here anyway. I am a "drop" in. But I do enjoy the debate. I will try to refrain from crossing the line of riducule of an argument and the arguer.

I have worked with mothers and babies for a long time too. I have had babies at home and in the hospital. I have been furious at the inadequacies and flaws of the medcial system in the US and at some individuals who practice it. I think what may be different ( possibly) is that I see the system as something that has grown from the actions of humans and is a human creation and not as some monolithic all powerful entity--as capitals imply? Does that help you understand? People say doctors think they are "God" and I agree, far too many do.. the profession probably attracts more than its share of arrogant people. But I have met midwives, lay and nurse, with the same attitude. And if anyone ever seemed to really play God it was these two women, who no matter what you label it were practicing what is labeled midwifery in the state of Florida. Another time you see caps used is for God and He and I think the caps smacked to me of diefication ( I am sure a very evil diety indeed).

One thing I do disagree with is that people will always recognize a bad professional or pseudo professional. Mother don't just know instinctively people are stupid or uneducated or even evil. Sociopaths fool people everyday in all walks of life. I don't believe in blaming a mother for choosing bad providers. The mother here is dead and she trusted these people and I don't believe they were doing what they thought was best for her. I believe they did what they thought was best for them. Does that ever happen in western medicine, yes, of course it does every day. Would it be on Court TV, well, if it was sensational enough. If they had been licensed and more knowledgable, and done the same thing, I hope they would have been prosecuted for murder or reckless disregard for human life
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#80 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 05:08 PM
 
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The midwife I have used in the past is not licensed. And I fought as hard as I could against licensing in WI - to no avail. I'm an ultra-conservative - meaning I think the gov should stay out of my business. (The few things I think the gov should be a part of - like punishing murderers and pedifiles - I find they do a pretty lousey job of anyway). I should be able to hire anyone I want. As an individual I should interview carefully anyone I consider hiring for any job. It's not about blaming the mother/parents - it's about autonomy. I don't need any well meaning people trying to protect me from my own ignorance.

I would never hire a licensed midwife, because I refuse to work within the system. I want to negotiate any care I might want with the individual, not with insurance companies, gov, and licensing bodies.

So while I'm sad that this woman died, I think it should be her right to seek help in anyway she wants. I think the gov should stay out of it. While I may question the sanity and good judgement of the attendants, I think the gov should stay out of it. If this woman had wanted the protection of gov, she would have hired a licensed midwife - obviously that was not the kind of care she was interested in. And if she didn't hire a licensed midwife out of ignorance, then that's pitiful, but I don't think it should be the gov's job to protect her from her own ignorance.
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#81 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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The midwife I have used in the past is not licensed. And I fought as hard as I could against licensing in WI - to no avail. I'm an ultra-conservative - meaning I think the gov should stay out of my business. (The few things I think the gov should be a part of - like punishing murderers and pedifiles - I find they do a pretty lousey job of anyway). I should be able to hire anyone I want. As an individual I should interview carefully anyone I consider hiring for any job. It's not about blaming the mother/parents - it's about autonomy. I don't need any well meaning people trying to protect me from my own ignorance.

I would never hire a licensed midwife, because I refuse to work within the system. I want to negotiate any care I might want with the individual, not with insurance companies, gov, and licensing bodies.

So while I'm sad that this woman died, I think it should be her right to seek help in anyway she wants. I think the gov should stay out of it. While I may question the sanity and good judgement of the attendants, I think the gov should stay out of it. If this woman had wanted the protection of gov, she would have hired a licensed midwife - obviously that was not the kind of care she was interested in. And if she didn't hire a licensed midwife out of ignorance, then that's pitiful, but I don't think it should be the gov's job to protect her from her own ignorance.
Even though I come down on the issue differently I think you stated your position very well. I respect your point of view and well said.
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#82 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 08:55 PM
 
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Correct, an unlicensed midwife may not attend births as a midwife in Florida.
Then it is incorrect that "choosing your birth attendant [...] is a right protected by law here in Florida."

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What is the definition of "dentist"? Who owns it?
We all do, in the sense that we all agree on the definition. As soon as we all agree on the definition of "midwife", that will be when it is appropriate for the state to mandate licensure of midwifery.

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By calling yourself "midwife" you are leading people to believe you have the skills and training of a midwife, however those skills and training were acquired. By calling yourself "dentist" you are leading people to believe you have the skills and training of a dentist. I don't see the huge difference.
Again, we probably agree on what we should be able to expect from a dentist. I doubt that we would agree on what we should be able to expect from a midwife.

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If I ask my husband to put clove oil, or even ambesol, on my toothache, he is not practicing dentistry. If I ask him to pull it out at home, I may be crazy, but he is still not practicing dentistry. If my husband offers the same services to people in the neighborhood, and he is not a dentist, he is practicing dentistry without a license.
Really? Well, I think that's absurd. But what is the point? What does that have to do with whether it's valid for the state to regulate midwifery?
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#83 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 09:16 PM
 
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I do not hold either of those midwives responsible for the outcomes. I made the choice to hire them and give some of my power over to them. I was ultimately responsible, and that's how it should be.
Yes but THEY made the choice to break the laws of this country and so must also take responsiblity for their actions. Should those laws be in place? That's obviously up for debate. But if you break the law, you are subject to it's punishments. That's just the world we live in.
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#84 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 09:21 PM
 
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You can choose your birth attendent, or choose not to have one, in Florida. You cannot, however, put on scrubs, hang a fetoscope around your neck, and call yourself midwife when you have no skills or training, neither legally nor ethically.

We probably won't agree on what we expect from a midwife. I expect that if a person presents herself to me as a midwife, that she is going to have knowledge and skills, and certainly be able to stop me from bleeding to death, at the very least, or call for help when I lose consciousness, or any thing else that may or may not present itself. That is why I hire her. If I don't want or need those things, I would choose to do it alone.
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#85 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 09:34 PM
 
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Society is always weighing protecting people from their own bad choices versus personal freedoms. Its why some professions are licensed. That is why the ultraconservative poster I think got to the heart of the issue. People draw the line between freedom and autonomy and societal protections in different places.
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#86 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 09:35 PM
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If I don't want or need those things, I would choose to do it alone.
So, should all fathers or lesbian partners be subject to punishment if they choose to assist the mother of their baby give birth?
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#87 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mamabearing
Society is always weighing protecting people from their own bad choices versus personal freedoms. Its why some professions are licensed. That is why the ultraconservative poster I think got to the heart of the issue. People draw the line between freedom and autonomy and societal protections in different places.
Dentistry is not a natural process like Birth is. :
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#88 of 132 Old 06-04-2006, 10:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
So, should all fathers or lesbian partners be subject to punishment if they choose to assist the mother of their baby give birth?
What?
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#89 of 132 Old 06-05-2006, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Dentistry is not a natural process like Birth is. :
Yes, birth is natural. But I grew up the daughter of a fisherman in the Bering Sea, and Mother Nature isn't all that kind sometimes. Any birth attendant needs to be able to respond to the times when she's a real b****, and that includes knowing one's limitations.

mama to Max (2/02) and Sophie (10/06); wife to my fabulous girl
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#90 of 132 Old 06-05-2006, 12:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds
I do not hold either of those midwives responsible for the outcomes. I made the choice to hire them and give some of my power over to them. I was ultimately responsible, and that's how it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chantelhayes
Yes but THEY made the choice to break the laws of this country and so must also take responsiblity for their actions. Should those laws be in place? That's obviously up for debate. But if you break the law, you are subject to it's punishments. That's just the world we live in.
I was talking about my midwives, who were not breaking the law. I was telling my story in order to help explain why I believe the laws in other places -- that would have made them criminals if we were in those other places -- are wrong. I'm all too aware that, like you say, if you break the law and get caught, you pay, regardless of whether the law is just or not, and that's something to take into account when making your choice.

Honestly, I don't know how women can continue to accept laws the impinge on their birthing freedoms. I know I'm lucky to live in a place where I have the freedom to use my brain to make my own decisions independently of the government. I just don't think I should have to be lucky. It should just be the way it is, everywhere, for every woman.
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