help a local baby was taken away for having a uc! - Page 11 - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-19-2006, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamid
I just read it.



Your story is so much like when I lost my oldest DC. They didn't even know what sex it was because it had both a penis and a vagina. The initial said it was a boy. I refused to let him get autopsied because I wanted that 19 week fetus to have some dignity. He didn't have a chance.

One of these years, I'll post his story.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 04-19-2006, 05:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Zamber
Thanks

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 04-19-2006, 05:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by littleteapot
The stories in this thread make me think of my friend W. He's in his 40's, and he has what I've always known as "Genius syndrome". Very high functioning. He's quite possibly the smartest person I've ever met... his IQ is well over 300, and it shows. People who have that high an IQ act odd, and they seem eccentric. There's nothing wrong with him, he's just socially inept. He's so gentle and sweet and I've never seen him so much as grimace in anger.

Him and his current long-time partner are good friends of mine and my mother's, and a few days after I gave birth to my daughter I came to see them and show her off. She was all curled in a baby sling and when I showed him, he started to cry and said he couldn't see her, and then he told me this:

17 years ago he was married to a beautiful woman who adored and understood him, and they had a little baby girl together. They home birthed, breastfed, family bedded. He talked so fondly of the way their beautiful little girl used to sleep between them, and how they would sling her and love her.
Then his wife got cancer. It was in the late stages when they caught it, and she only had a few months to live. She wanted to die peacefully at home in the hands of her family instead of hooked up to tubes in a hospital, so she did. She left behind this wonderful man and her eight month old baby girl.
At her funeral social workers showed up with the wife's sister and her husband, who always *hated* W... they snatched his baby girl from his arms right there in front of the crowd and he never saw her again. They said he was unfit to care for a baby and was a danger to her safety.
He'd been sending her letters every week since she was stolen, and had never received a reply.

After he told me this, a huge series of events unfolded.
At 17 years old this girl found out that all the letters her father had been sending her had never arrived because her "mother" destroyed them. She sent him letters from her school, wanting to know who he was, and he had to reply back there to a mailbox. When someone found out about it, they destroyed them.
She ran away from home a few months later and showed up at his house. She'd never met him before, and all she'd been told all her life was that he was "insane" and a "pedophile" and otherwise a horrible person. She was shocked to learn that he was none of those things, and fought for her right to see him whenever she wanted: and she won. Now he's just meeting her first the "first time" again, and really knows nothing about her, or her life. She doesn't even know how or why she was taken from him.
Amazing story

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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Old 04-19-2006, 05:55 PM
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I wouldn't call it amazing. Just a father who was steamrolled over by fledgling CPS.

17 years ago would have put it at the end of the 80's if not a little earlier. That's when CPS was just getting their power and finding out what they could pull with ease and how much money they could get for the "poor waifs" they were taking care of.
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Old 04-19-2006, 11:55 PM
 
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I suppose the reality here is that the US is really no longer a free nation. I weep for future generations if things don't change.

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Old 04-20-2006, 12:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LadyButler
I suppose the reality here is that the US is really no longer a free nation. I weep for future generations if things don't change.

THAT right there is what I've been telling DH for a couple years now. We have actually very little freedom...what is there is just a guise. And he's finally starting to see it. I don't know why (other then money and power), but our ability to self govern is slowing being taken away and no. one. cares.

Amy ~ Web Designing Single Mom to 4: DD14, DS12, DS5, DS3
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Old 04-20-2006, 12:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Synthea™
THAT right there is what I've been telling DH for a couple years now. We have actually very little freedom...what is there is just a guise. And he's finally starting to see it. I don't know why (other then money and power), but our ability to self govern is slowing being taken away and no. one. cares.
"Land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy" - RATM

I'm coming to believe it more and more... I've been following this thread but not posting. Scary horrible stuff

Cara
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Old 04-20-2006, 04:09 AM
 
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just wanted to say i spoke with mama and papa last sat. they had baby Pearl with them and came into my store were they are customers (health foods store). Pearl looked great and mom and dad looked so happy to be with their baby. we talked for a while, they are just very sad by all that has happened and worried by now being in the cps database. they said nothing new has happened and are not sure what will follow.
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Old 04-20-2006, 10:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eddiesmommy
just wanted to say i spoke with mama and papa last sat. they had baby Pearl with them and came into my store were they are customers (health foods store). Pearl looked great and mom and dad looked so happy to be with their baby. we talked for a while, they are just very sad by all that has happened and worried by now being in the cps database. they said nothing new has happened and are not sure what will follow.
Ty for the update.
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Old 04-20-2006, 02:27 PM
 
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yes, thanks-you eddiesmama, for the update. Is the mother now BFing?
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Old 04-20-2006, 02:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Synthea™
THAT right there is what I've been telling DH for a couple years now. We have actually very little freedom...what is there is just a guise. And he's finally starting to see it. I don't know why (other then money and power), but our ability to self govern is slowing being taken away and no. one. cares.
I think it's not so innocent as mere apathy. Anyone who DOES care is shunned as a conspiracy theorist or a crazy person...to protect the herd mentality. I mean, when even our mass media outlets refer to anyone with a different opinion with scorn or contempt, that's pretty influential on a mass segment of the population.

Oh, there I go sounding crazy/conspiracy theorist again
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:23 PM
 
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For the other mamas out there who have lost their children, my heart aches for you. We know how bad it is. We've dealt with them too.

Here's a workbook you might consider getting. It helped us work through a lot of our fears and difficulties. It's called the PTSD workbook. I tend to do it every year to see how much progress I've made.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157...lance&n=283155
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Old 04-20-2006, 09:35 PM
 
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Hi -- this is the first time I've posted here. I found this discussion when I saw Hathor's cartoon on the subject, and searched until I came across this thread. My heart goes out to that poor family.

I produce and host a weekly parenting programme on local radio (near Detroit, Michigan, and available everywhere via the internet at cjam.ca). As a result of hearing about the tragic case of the family in Spokane, I've been searching for similar stories. I'm planning to do a show, either April 24 or May 1, on CPS intervening due to alternative parenting practices. I've been finding unbelievable things: children being taken because they were homeschooled, because their parents were vegetarians, you name it.

If anyone has specific information they think I should include, or links to resources worth mentioning, please send them along to me at [email protected]
I've interviewed both Hathor and Laura Shanley, and they can confirm I'm on the level.

Thanks.
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamabadger
Hi -- this is the first time I've posted here. I found this discussion when I saw Hathor's cartoon on the subject, and searched until I came across this thread. My heart goes out to that poor family.

I produce and host a weekly parenting programme on local radio (near Detroit, Michigan, and available everywhere via the internet at cjam.ca). As a result of hearing about the tragic case of the family in Spokane, I've been searching for similar stories. I'm planning to do a show, either April 24 or May 1, on CPS intervening due to alternative parenting practices. I've been finding unbelievable things: children being taken because they were homeschooled, because their parents were vegetarians, you name it.

If anyone has specific information they think I should include, or links to resources worth mentioning, please send them along to me at [email protected]
I've interviewed both Hathor and Laura Shanley, and they can confirm I'm on the level.

Thanks.
what about parents whose children have cancer and they seek alternative treatments for them and then their child is taken by CPS? because they call it child endangerment and a normal doctor if you tell him/her that you will be doing something alternative will call CPS.
its not that the parent does NOTHING, its that they refuse to do things like chemo and instead take their children to a treatment center that spends all there time looking for natural treatments to cancer.
some of the parents even do the "normal" treatments for the first round, then when the cancer comes back they move on to something else. they still often times get turned into CPS because they are refusing to continue on with the "normal" way of doing things.
huh, what happened to our free country.
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Old 04-21-2006, 07:41 PM
 
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This is all just sick. CPS takes kids away from people who love them and only want the best for them and put them in situations where danger is very possible. They spend their time harrassing parents who love their children and taking kids out of good potental adoptive homes and put them back with their drug addicted abusive mothers. My aunt and uncle who are very very loving, have a good home, good income etc. tried to adpot a 7 year old boy. After he lived with them for a few months and they all grew attached, cps took him and put him back with his abusive mom. Why wasn't that child protected from a truly bad situation and children who don't need to be taken away are? No, we don't live in a free country we haven't for a long time.
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Old 04-23-2006, 07:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mamamoo
Almost ALL anti-depressants are ok for nursing. They need to actually look up the drug. Do you know what it is? That is what happened to my friend...she told her counselor that she felt like a bad mom because she was playing on the computer too much(which is in a different room than the living area0, and the doc called cps and said she locked herself inthe room all day. A total lie, and my frind is an ap parent, so of course she felt guilty, most parents in the usa are more neglectful than she, it's just the guilt you feel as a mom who actually thinks about these things can be so great and told to a "professional" blown totally out of proportion.
OMG. I've only made it this far in the gargantuan thread. But this really scares and disturbs me. How in the world can they wonder why mamas don't get more help when they are depressed? This seems like such a violation to me. Ugh. For the mama you mention here and for the mama in the OP. Ugh.

I'm so sad and angry for these poor mamas. I guess I won't be seeking any help anytime soon for my depression issues.
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Old 04-23-2006, 07:58 PM
 
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I once had a pediatrician try to diagnose me with some mental disorder (I DID have PPD, but not anything else). He insisted that I take lithium. I refused. He called CPS on me.
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:29 PM
 
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OMG. I've only made it this far in the gargantuan thread. But this really scares and disturbs me. How in the world can they wonder why mamas don't get more help when they are depressed? This seems like such a violation to me. Ugh. For the mama you mention here and for the mama in the OP. Ugh.

I'm so sad and angry for these poor mamas. I guess I won't be seeking any help anytime soon for my depression issues.

Please don't let this thing keep you from taking care of yourself! I've been on meds for depression for about 8 years. When I got pregnant, my dr. and I worked together. She gave me articles to read, so that I would know the issues and so we could make informed choices. I also switched medications the summer before DD was born (about 5 or 6 months pregnant) just so I could breastfeed. My daughter is 16 months old now, still nursing and very happy and healthy. And I'm happy and healthy.

Mom of two girls.
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Old 04-25-2006, 06:20 PM
 
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thanks, clarasmom.
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Old 04-26-2006, 12:38 AM
 
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I too worked with my dr when I found out that I was preg with ds. It's important to make informed decisions about your life. The same thing witht the mom in the op, she was making an informed decision about the birth of her child without medical intervention. My informed decision, her informed decision, what's the difference?
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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I found this thread last night when it was mentioned in another thread (maybe in Life With a Babe???). I stayed up past my "bedtime" and read the whole thing. Needless to say, I didn't sleep well last night.

I kept thinking of this mama (and daddy) and babe being away from one another, wanting each other so badly on the deepest physical, emotional, and spiritual levels, and all the grief and pain there must have been.

I thought of the parents signing the papers because who wouldn't?!! It was the way to get their baby back in their arms as quickly as possible. If I was in that situation and could have avoided signing the papers but would have had to wait even a day more to get my baby back in my arms, would I have waited? I don't know. It's really hard to say. The need to be together is so basic, so primal, especially in the earliest days. I would have had a very difficult time waiting any longer, and I am not sure I could have held out to clear my name and avoid signing the papers.

And I spent a lot of last night thinking about PPD, or depression among women and men in general, and wondering how we can possibly encourage new parents to seek treatment for depression if they also have to worry about whether this will get their child taken away. What a terrible, terrible thing!

Of course, it is impossible for any of us to know the full story...what was involved in the decision for this child to be removed, etc. But on this thread we've been given every reason to believe that this child being removed was the wrong decision, one in which there was deeply flawed reasoning...and every reason to believe that some terrible, heartbreaking injustices have occurred. For this family, and all of you who have experienced such injustices, my heart cries for you. From the bottom of my heart, I want very badly for this to never, ever happen again to any other family.

I pray that this family finds that their case closes quickly, and that there is vindication along the way. I pray that they never experience the tragedy of separation from one another again. I pray that the system becomes freer from these terrible mishandlings. I pray that the system receives reforms to protect families like this one. I pray that everyone finds some sense of resolution soon.

As a foster parent (in WA nonetheless), I also want to share my experiences with "the system," for what they are worth. I'm not sharing the following to invalidate anyone else's experiences. Obviously different people will have different experiences within the same system...because it is a human, fallible system. But maybe my experiences can provide another perspective. I have been a foster parent for several years. I have had a number of children in and out of my house, and have had the opportunity to work with a number of social workers. I have seen the flaws in the system firsthand, and even experienced pain personally because of those flaws. I have also seen the reason for the system and the reasons for the way the system is set up.

It has been my experience that CPS is a system designed to provide intervention and protection when children are being abused and/or neglected. I do believe that protection of children from abuse and/or neglect is not something that should fall in the realm of self-governance. That's been tried before in the U.S. and elsewhere, and it leads to tragedy. Having said that, I don't believe that CPS should be involved in parenting decisions in general, for instance, where we school our children, where they are born and who is present at birth, where our children sleep, etc.

And, it has been my observation that the vast, vast, vast majority of cases in which kids actually end up in foster care (I'd venture to guess, though it is indeed only a guess, 98% of cases) involve real and dangerous forms of neglect and abuse.

As someone who does emergency foster care, in addition to "regular" foster care, I get called in cases when a child is just being removed from a parents' care. It can happen at 3am (more often than not, it happens in the middle of the night), and it can happen anytime during the day. Usually the calls are requesting me to come to the police station or the hospital not the CPS office, because there is an actual emergency. I've never, ever, ever been called (and pray that I never will) about a child "needing" a placement because the parent was making so-called "alternative" parenting decisions, or because a social worker just thought it might be for the best for the child to be placed with someone else. In fact, as far as I know, I've never even been called about a child whose parent seemed inattentive or anything that could be a case of a parent being on a computer.

That's not to say that it doesn't ever happen. Clearly, some of you have experienced otherwise. But that is to say that I just think that is not the case 95-99% of the time because in my years of being on the "frontline" of emergency foster care, I've never seen it. Instead, the calls I get are about things like children being beaten so badly they ended up in the ER, or babies being given bottles filled to the top with alcohol so they will sleep while the parent hangs out with friends, or preschoolers found wandering the streets in the middle of the night because they are being left alone-- time and time again-- at home all night while the parent goes and gets high and parties.

This is such a complex issue, and really no system could be perfect. Freedom is granted to social workers to the extent that laws can't cover the individual circumstances that would be present in all cases. Often, I have seen that freedom be protective of birth families. Having laws that write the future of families with across the board rules is actually more frightening, in some ways, than laws that give some freedom-- within a set of limits (for example, needing proof that the child is in immediate danger)-- to social workers.

As a mandated reporter, I have called CPS occassionally to report suspected abuse. More often than not, the call goes on file, but the situation is not investigated. The incoming calls are screened for how well they fit into the definition of abuse and neglect, and cases that do not clearly fit within the definition are almost always screened out. For instance, another mandatory reporter I know who works with kids called to report that a child told her that he was being beaten at home with a hanger (as someone totally against spanking, the idea of a child being beaten with a hanger sends me reeling, so I was horrified to hear this myself!). She called CPS, and was told that it was within the legal rights of a parent to use something other than a hand for spanking as long as it left no marks after a half hour. Thus, because no marks were left on this child by the time he told my friend, the situation did not become a CPS case. If it is deemed that services might be helpful for the family, they can also be provided without the family being accussed of abuse/neglect.

Even in cases where a situation is investigated, I often see CPS provide services and leave the child with the parents. Most of the social workers I know have actually told me, point blank, that they believe children have a right to be raised by their parents, even crappy parents, and that it isn't good for anyone to have a removal take place. Plus, as the social workers here have really, really, really overfull caseloads, there is no incentive to bring a child into foster care except when there are no other options to keep the child safe.

So, I've been called about a possible placement, for example, of a newborn who tested positive for multiple drugs. And later in the day, I received a call saying that it was deemed safe for the child to go home with his mother (which blew me away...but I suppose they had lots and lots of info I didn't have about why the child was testing positive, and for which drugs, and whether the mom was willing to go into treatment if needed). Thus the child never entered into foster care, and if I understood correctly, the parent didn't even sign anything. But services were provided. I have seen this happen over and over again, even when there were very legitimate concerns. I truly believe that more often than not, social workers believe and are trained to see birth families as the best places for kids.

And even when children come into foster care, I see most often the social workers providing the family with services and keeping their eyes on reuniting the family. Sometimes resources are very limited, and sometimes because of overburdening case loads, those services can be slow coming (heck...support for foster parents is also veeeeeeery slow coming). But I've also seen lots of social workers go above and beyond the call of duty to get services to families. I've seen birthparents hold out and refuse services, when those services are clearly very necessary (anger management and parenting classes, for example, in cases in which a child has been badly beaten by a parent), and the workers continue to offer them indefinitely. I've seen birth parents get chance after chance after chance to fix very real and dangerous problems, often beyond the period I think is fair for the child (I think if a birth parent isn't likely to successfully complete the services that would stop abuse or neglect, and they are given a chance or two, the best thing for the child is to move him/her into another permanent situation as quickly as possible).

I have a friend who cared for her nephew for four years (all states do emphasize relative placement whenever possible), from the time he was six months old. On occassion the mother would get it together for a brief time, and would get her son back for a few weeks, and then she'd start getting high again and her son would once again end up being left home alone for hours at a time, and the child would end back up with the aunt. Meanwhile, the aunt has been saying the whole time that she'd be willing to adopt, and just recently a judge once again sent this poor preschooler back home with his mom.

Timeframes are, in my experience, almost always very clearly laid out. When there is a court review, sometimes I'll receive the same documents as the birth parents. The caseplan is what the birth parent signs, and it almost always has a timeframe for services and how long they'll be offered and what exactly the parents have to do before the state will consider termination of rights (at least here in WA), etc. More often than not, I think the caseplans move too slowly. I don't think, for example, that it should take someone six months or a year to just *make* an appointment with a drug treatment or anger management facility for an evaluation, for example, when the parent is made aware that this is what they need to do to get their child back.

And finally, I also feel compelled to share that the reimbursements foster parents receive are quite modest, and I always spend on a child more than what I get in reimbursements. In fact, I've had situations where I did think a child had special needs and that the state should have been providing things like craniosacral therapy, etc...and have been turned down for additional reimbursements to cover those costs. *And,* in cases of adoption, adoption support money is only provided when there are special needs for a child, only in relation to the child's exact needs, and this money (a) is usually in the form of medicaid and other such services (which many birth parents are eligible for in regards to their children), not actual money, and (b) is very, very minimal and usually much less than foster care reimbursements. Adoption support money is specifically to cover therapy and other services the child will need in order to reach their potential in life. It's money intended for the *kids,* not parents. Nobody is raking in money for these children unless they are neglecting the children...and again, I think child neglect is a reason to intervene.

As I said, I don't share this to invalidate what anyone else has experienced. I'm very sorry to read such sad stories on here. But the state is involved with a lot, lot more kids than are represented on this thread, and I think tragically, it is often necessary. Having said that, again, I cry for the family being discussed in this thread. What a sad, sad situation. If you read this, may you hear my greatest sorrow for what you have lost in all of this.

I'm pro-adoption reform, but not anti-adoption.
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:34 PM
 
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Oh, and I forgot to mention in my post, that one of the ways the system has checks and balances is that judges *and* social workers are involved, as well as CASAs (court appointed special advocates who have no interests in the case except that of the child), and countless other volunteers and professionals. There are also independent boards to review system complaints (from birth parents, foster parents, or whoever), at least where I am. While there are still times when screwy things happen, the social worker doesn't hold absolute power.

I'm pro-adoption reform, but not anti-adoption.
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Old 04-28-2006, 07:45 PM
 
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Sierra, I appreciate you spending the time to share a bit of the other side. Your words were very thought-provoking.
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra
Oh, and I forgot to mention in my post, that one of the ways the system has checks and balances is that judges *and* social workers are involved, as well as CASAs (court appointed special advocates who have no interests in the case except that of the child), and countless other volunteers and professionals. There are also independent boards to review system complaints (from birth parents, foster parents, or whoever), at least where I am. While there are still times when screwy things happen, the social worker doesn't hold absolute power.
The CASA's are there, but they do not support the parents at all. They take all of the reccomendations of the sw. I highly doubt they actually listen to the parents(like the sw). I have heard stories about the casa workers too. Seems like they are just an extention of the cps people to make it look like there is some one advocating...the social worker is already advocating for the child, right? I think of the casa workers like I do the epa.

I'm *not* saying that there is not a need for a cps like entity, but man, do they need some changes!!??

Single mama to Alex(13), Maddy(12), Sam(8), Violet(6), and Ruby(3). fly-by-nursing1.gif
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:04 PM
 
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Sierra,
It's good that your perspective was added to the discussion. Thanks for what you do.
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Old 05-01-2006, 02:40 AM
 
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*hugs mama*

i heard about this through c-birth but couldn't post to you on there because i'm still in my 2 week "lurking period" but my heart aches for you and i hope to god you get your little girl back. it is SICKENING what the government is doing to your family.

Alia + Brian proud parents to Rowan (9/8/04) Lila (9/3/07) and Rhys (6/11/10)
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:11 AM
 
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Is this to the OP or me? The one on c-birth right now is on another thread, located here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=444771 This one was discussed on c-birth as well, though CPS is apparently in a mood this month...
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:23 AM
 
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wow that is horrible!!! i'm speachless!! is there any update!! i'll keep that family in my prayers!!
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Old 05-01-2006, 05:02 AM
 
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I should be sleeping.

So, blanket consent forms...very hard to NOT sign them if you are in a non-emegency situation but still need "emergency" or doctor care right then. Now they have blanket consent for doctor visits.

It is somewhat simpler to say at the time, "I revoke my consent for that treatment." Depending upon what is happening and depending upon the situation. "I exclude that treatment from my consent. Where do I sign?"

A scarier situation is when your baby *must* be admitted. You never want to even leave the room to pee.

I agree that a power of attourney etc will set you up rather for more likelihood of having the Social Worker visit.

Blanket consents as well as blanket "I will pay" statements are signed under duress. Surely this will affect your case later if it becomes an issue.

Even though we have signed blanket consents, we have always had to sign individual consents for each treatment. I don't think the blanket consent protects them as much as they pretend it does.

Your language/wording in the situation will influence how seriously they take you. IME, threatening them isn't as necessary as being confident in what you want to happen. I agree that the weirder you seem to them, the more they are going to want to do. It's a need to know basis only.

mv
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:03 AM
 
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Wow I cam't believe Iread this whole thread. Any new updates on mom and baby?
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